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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Infinion
Caldari Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2009.03.04 21:02:00 -
[91]
Why should a new player need to train all their learning skills at once? It's a decision for them to make. They have the choice to either train all their learning skills and do nothing, don't train them at all but get to their short-term goals faster, or alternate between training core skills and learning skills up to where they shorten training time without branching off and delaying a new player's goals.
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Antraxor
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Posted - 2009.03.04 22:15:00 -
[92]
I think this is all a very bad idea.
As others said, it still has the learning skill issue which is not addressed.
The sole issue the new player system addresses is that players can have more customization in lower levels - which is great and all. But this does not solve the major issue that new players REALLY have with the game.
The problem for new players (aside from the learning skill issues) is the fun factor for the first few weeks playing. My friends got a grasp on the skill system all within a couple days, so the issue thats being addressed isnt the true problem.
How is a new player supposed to have fun when they can do nothing but suicide tackle for their first month? Did you even think about how many players take a free trial? That has been the major thing that sucked in new players, and players on a free trial will basically be weakened by this change.
How is a character being able to spec from 1 "School" in to another, going to make up for the fact that right now you could make a character that has 3-4 lvl 4-5 skills? A new military pilot can train up in T2 small weapons immediately for a damage boost, and T2 small weapons are actually very affordable compared to T1 named small weapons. Furthermore, if you go for a drone spec, you can start by being able to immediately train Drone Interfacing, which is a free HUGE DAMAGE boost. Drone interfacing 3 alone is 60% damage at free cost. You could make a new pilot not only effective at suicide tackling, but semi-effective in DPS immediately. After patch, you will not be able to.
Furthermore, for all the other Starting Schools you can begin pretty effective as well. Decide you want to mine? Make a miner alt who can immediately being very effective - after patch you will have to skill up for WEEKS to be at that point. Want an industry alt? You can just make one immedaitely right now thats somewhat effective - but they will have to wait for weeks after patch. Want a trade alt? Immediately now, weeks after patch. Being able to try all the different schools has NOT been the issue - the issue is simply fun factor for new players.
You are diminishing their possible roles only leaving suicide tackling for new players, and telling them they are going to have to wait for weeks before they can do anything else as effectively as new players can right now. This is going to suck out their fun factor and make them think Eve is just a boring game for their first few weeks, and make it harder for them to see waht the real game is about. If you group up a bunch of new players with the current system they will be able to gang up on a larger target and take them out - after patch they wont because they simply wont be effective at any role except tackling - their new player DPS roles are extinct.
Even on the 21 day free trial, how do you expect new players to have fun? You are reverting to the amount of SP players started with years ago - that was great back then when everyone was in smaller ships but things are different now. Why are you throwing away the improvements you added for new players last time (which is the CURRENT system) in exchange for something else? The current system should be IMPROVED, instead of thrown away for a new one...
A much better solution would have been to address the issues with learning skills, or simply keep the current starter templates and give new players Double SP as you are planning to do. This way players would still have all the customization and ability to train new things faster that they are getting from the new system, while still being somewhat effective at something other then tackling. This would not overpower them at all either.
I really dont think you thought about fun factor, or how many new players you get from trials in this new system. You need to make the players first impression - their first weeks - FUN first and foremost. Thats the thing that would be healthiest for the game.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.04 22:52:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Infinion Why should a new player need to train all their learning skills at once? It's a decision for them to make. They have the choice to either train all their learning skills and do nothing, don't train them at all but get to their short-term goals faster, or alternate between training core skills and learning skills up to where they shorten training time without branching off and delaying a new player's goals.
not at once, but within the double training time.
also your also stuck thinking in non double training time. but I won't explain it a I have done so many times allready.
basicly if you don't you miss out within 16 days of starting the game, your already being surpassed in non-learning sp.
However this would not be an issue if at one point you didn't lose the double training time, which on top of being behind, now makes you train your learning skills 150% longer than if you had during double training time.
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Alma Malice
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Posted - 2009.03.04 23:11:00 -
[94]
How about if we link the double speed training with the new certificate system, the certificates are supposed to give new players some general directions about what skills they should study for different career choices...
If you could only spend your first 1.6Msp working along some certificate paths it would be easier, more focused, and the learning skill inbalance avoided.
Radical suggestion: just forget double speed training as it makes the new player experience more confusing and at the same time makes learning skills even more imbalanced, just make it so that everyone starts with instant 1.6Msp and they get to allocate those 1.6Msp through the certificate system. Advantages: - Focused customization based on existing game mechanic (hopefully they will continue to use certificates after character creation too!) - No learning skills for all new players, can discuss if/when/how we want to remove learning from game in another thread - Everyone gets a slightly better, more customizable ... alt
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Michelle Kaku
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Posted - 2009.03.04 23:20:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Michelle Kaku on 04/03/2009 23:20:31
Originally by: Alma Malice How about if we link the double speed training with the new certificate system, the certificates are supposed to give new players some general directions about what skills they should study for different career choices...
If you could only spend your first 1.6Msp working along some certificate paths it would be easier, more focused, and the learning skill inbalance avoided.
Radical suggestion: just forget double speed training as it makes the new player experience more confusing and at the same time makes learning skills even more imbalanced, just make it so that everyone starts with instant 1.6Msp and they get to allocate those 1.6Msp through the certificate system. Advantages: - Focused customization based on existing game mechanic (hopefully they will continue to use certificates after character creation too!) - No learning skills for all new players, can discuss if/when/how we want to remove learning from game in another thread - Everyone gets a slightly better, more customizable ... alt
That's actually somewhat of a decent idea... even if they jsut implement it like you have the option to train something with a certificate whenever you are ready.... so players dont need to feel overwhelmed like they have to choose something right now if they dont want to.
Or even if they limit it to 800k-900k to spend on buying certificates, as that will be equivalent to what they start with now - and then they can do 2x XP after that.
Although it's probably too late in the development cycle to add changes such as this.... 6 days till patch =\
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lord orei
Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2009.03.05 01:25:00 -
[96]
Learning skills are in no way a necessity. They are a choice. Some choose to skill them immediately and some don't. Losing out on some sp because one chooses to fly a ship instead of training learning to 5/4 isn't a big deal. I didn't get mine up to 5/4 for more than a year and I have no regrets. I pitty you sp/hour people who would probably go into some kind of deep depression if you were ever podded with a clone that wasn't up to date.
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Michelle Kaku
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Posted - 2009.03.05 01:36:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Michelle Kaku on 05/03/2009 01:36:20
Originally by: lord orei Learning skills are in no way a necessity. They are a choice. Some choose to skill them immediately and some don't. Losing out on some sp because one chooses to fly a ship instead of training learning to 5/4 isn't a big deal. I didn't get mine up to 5/4 for more than a year and I have no regrets. I pitty you sp/hour people who would probably go into some kind of deep depression if you were ever podded with a clone that wasn't up to date.
The thing is, not everyone knows about Evemon, especially new players, so they wont know if learning skills save them time or not...
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Ifly Uwalk
Caldari Somali Coastguard Authority
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Posted - 2009.03.05 13:39:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Michelle Kaku The thing is, not everyone knows about Evemon, especially new players, so they wont know if learning skills save them time or not...
The really new players don't know anything about the game other than that they want to be in battleships as parts of huge fleets blowing up some enemy; which is what is says on the box, which is the reason they bought the box in the first place.
After about 2 or 3 weeks they'll realize that training Learnings will get them into BSs faster than not - which is why my idea (page 3) is still the best.
Screw alts.
Ifly
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.06 08:33:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Ifly Uwalk
Originally by: Michelle Kaku The thing is, not everyone knows about Evemon, especially new players, so they wont know if learning skills save them time or not...
The really new players don't know anything about the game other than that they want to be in battleships as parts of huge fleets blowing up some enemy; which is what is says on the box, which is the reason they bought the box in the first place.
After about 2 or 3 weeks they'll realize that training Learnings will get them into BSs faster than not - which is why my idea (page 3) is still the best.
Screw alts.
Ifly
right. My main issue is after the double training time is over, these players are ****ed.
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Katowen
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Posted - 2009.03.06 08:35:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Katowen on 06/03/2009 08:35:34
Originally by: Ifly Uwalk The really new players don't know anything about the game other than that they want to be in battleships as parts of huge fleets blowing up some enemy; which is what is says on the box, which is the reason they bought the box in the first place.
I love how everyone thinks what a new player to EVE-Online wants. Every player only knows what they wanted when they started playing. You DON'T know what the next new player will want. No one can.
You can gather all the data you want and make educated guesses and changes based on that but as you get more data from those previous changes and new data from new players, things will change again.
Don't be so stupid to think your point of view is the right one. It is one of many and like all input, it is valuable to help make a better game.
Katowen
PS - This isn't directed at anyone person but all of us in general -- including myself. |
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Notnearly OnEnough
Minmatar JumpDrive Inc
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Posted - 2009.03.06 14:48:00 -
[101]
Sweet! this is going to be a huge break for new players starting the game. I totally like that ability in the speed of learning is going to allow a smart player to accelerate through the two levels of learning skills. The whole process of training learning was one of the worst parts of starting for me. However, this only applies for people who know this little bit of information So I am not sure why moon is so upset about this. First this only applies to new players of which you are not. and you somehow feel CCP owes you compensation for new players getting this adjustment. well, CCP has compensated you by giving you this DEV blog so you can create your alt and get a jump on this. Your new alt can go out and Pew Pew those newbies that didn't get this info. Why do people feel they need compensation when the rules change? What is it that CCP owes you? CCP takes our money and upgrades the game, all the time! CCP takes our money and hires people and is one of the few companies in this economy that is growing! Give them a break and stop wining that they have made the game grow into something that has become great and stop feeling that you're being hurt by this. Next thing you'll want is a handicap decal for your transport so you can get a good spot in station in JITA. Geeze, CCP owes you nothing because you already started. As far as us older players go CCP is giving us wormholes, sleeper ships, a new map/probe mechanic. tons of stuff, go play with that and be happy. If you feel like you are owed something then try the converse and give something back, park in help channel and make sure every new person coming in gets to here your wonderfulmath about training and how to get up to 1.6 mill SP the fast way after all the only speed increase that doubles is up to 1.6 mill and then the increase goes away, and so does the argument about doubling. Your math is great! Your logic about the best thing to do with your time starting out is great! your argument about being owed some compensation is flawed! If CCP was going to do something i would rather see it be 'prepay your account for a year and as a bonus recieve 30 days of double speed training' that way once a year we get a bone thrown our way. Yes i'd be all about that. Similar to buying a plex, why not be able to buy 30 days of double speed training with our payment in good faith of 1 years game play. Just be happy, after all. CCP didn't have to change game mechanics
*** goes back to scraping the rust off my Rifter *** ** Using a MAC to play EVE is like using a rifter in a level 5.. scrambled FTL **
** I'd rather lag than use a MAC ** |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.06 21:56:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Notnearly OnEnough and you somehow feel CCP owes you compensation for new players getting this adjustment
I don't want any compensation for anything.
even if they removed advanced learning skills I would care less if they didn't give me back that sp.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.07 15:53:00 -
[103]
Just curious - will the accelerated learning time roll over if you're part-way through a skill when you reach the threshold, or stop at 1.6m?
Can I train a bunch of prereqs until I hit 1.599m SP, and then start up Racial Cruiser V or something similar and effectively get an additional 1m SP of accelerated training? Or will the new system recalculate my training rate mid-skill?
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C0wgirl
Gallente Pothouse Cartel IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.03.09 09:03:00 -
[104]
Erm, this link came from the patch notes to this page to tell me about "A virgin mind" for remapping attributes once per year, but yet that is barely mentioned. I thought there might be some actual notes on how one does that! CG
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Virgin Slayer
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Posted - 2009.03.10 01:11:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Virgin Slayer on 10/03/2009 01:12:33 "Character attribute distribution can now be rearranged in order to diversify or specialize skill training. This means that you can now reallocate attribute points once per year. CCP Flatboy tells us how neural remapping works in his blog A Virgin Mind."
As with the above poster, this is what I was looking for. Not a discussion on whether or not to keep learning skills. Where is any information on "reallocate attribute points once per year" ?
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2009.03.10 01:43:00 -
[106]
No more 800k SP instant alts?
The win is strong in this change.
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Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Bablu Hassan
Minmatar ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
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Posted - 2009.03.10 19:41:00 -
[107]
Fail. Pure and epic fail. And yes I hate CAOD 'l33t speak' but it was just too fitting.
New players get to go back to weeks of boring training before they can use anything useful again.
I'll never be able to convince my friends to play EVE now. "hey guys, join eve and spend weeks training for a game that isnt fun until then"
I love the idea, but it was implemented poorly. Give characters the choice to instatrain 750k worth of SP or something at a time they want to choose. I see the downside of this method also, but anything but what you guys just did.......
Otherwise great job on Apocrypha!
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The Import
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Posted - 2009.03.11 10:03:00 -
[108]
The remapping of attributes is a great idea, but the minimum and maximum ranges are bit bleh. My character has a default level of 4 in memory, but I can't make a change to any other attributes until I up this to 5, which does not help me in the long run at all.
It would be great if the minimum was at 3, like some characters do default at.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2009.03.11 23:37:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 11/03/2009 23:37:43
Originally by: Bablu Hassan I'll never be able to convince my friends to play EVE now. "hey guys, join eve and spend weeks training for a game that isnt fun until then"
That's nonsense. It seems you purposely exaggerate. If they really are your friends, you should be able to get them some +3 implants to start off, plus the advice how to quickly train for using them. Apart from that they'll train at double the normal speed.
I don't know what you call 'anything useful', but it's definitely less than a week, probably just 2-3 days until they can do and use something useful.
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Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
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