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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Ruze
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2009.03.04 16:35:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Gaius Aemilius The only way I can easily see preventing people like me from colonizing w-space would be to program the sleepers to go after POSs.
I could see the devs setting something up where the longer a system has a player, or player stuff, in it the stronger the sleepers get. Eventually stronger sleepers could start probing out players and player owned stuff, like POSs. We know high-end sleepers can be really nasty, they could easily make a few of them tough enough to take down a POS. After destroying everything player-owned in a system the sleeper's "progressin" could be reset.
That would basically ensure that after player habitation for a while a w-space system gets to lie "fallow" for a bit. Thus encouraging more exploration and less colonizing.
Of course I hope they don't do something like this. But it's what I would do to prevent people like me from owning w-space. (and I do intend to OWN a chunk of w-space if it is at all possible, bet on it since w-space is largely what's re-kindling my interest in EVE)
That's an interesting concept. Can the 'danger' level of these systems change dynamically to player involvement?
Would be interesting to see player activity cause sleeper activity to go up. Or, down! Imagine that the more time players spent in a system (POS's, mining, etc), the fewer sleepers remained in the system.
T3 industry would end up relying on players to NOT go ape crazy on these systems.
Nah ... to realistic. That would cause a LOT of hate.
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Jack Jombardo
Amarr Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2009.03.04 16:43:00 -
[32]
hehe, cool idear :)
First Sleeper try to kick the player out of THERE system -> become stronger, maybe bring in some Sleeper-Caps *g*. At this time they get the ability to scan down cloaked Ships too .
If the player somehow manage to survive this the Sleeper "give up" on the system -> less spawns, moons decay.
This does not change until player (structurs) count went down drasticly (no towers anymore, max 1 or 2 player left).
Originally by: CCP Nozh Where do tech 3 ships fit in?The goal has always been to have them considerably cheap, around the price of tech 2 cruisers.
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Gaius Aemilius
Wormhole-space Surveying and Exploitation
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Posted - 2009.03.04 16:45:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Ruze That's an interesting concept. Can the 'danger' level of these systems change dynamically to player involvement?
That's definitely how I would do it. The longer players are active in a w-space system the stronger the sleepers get and the more of them there are. After a point they start probing you out. Then when no players remain they probe out player-owned stuff and destroy it, or more likely you just wipe the database clean and start the system up again as empty.
But I would definitely key sleeper strength to the duration of player presence. Not necessarily to the intensity of player usage of the space, but to the duration of time. That way you encourage folks to come in with a fleet and exploit the hell out of the system, AND ensure that they leave in the end. (either with holds full of goodies to sell in k-space or in coffins, and I'd be good w. either as a dev)
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Ruze
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2009.03.04 17:01:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Gaius Aemilius
Originally by: Ruze That's an interesting concept. Can the 'danger' level of these systems change dynamically to player involvement?
That's definitely how I would do it. The longer players are active in a w-space system the stronger the sleepers get and the more of them there are. After a point they start probing you out. Then when no players remain they probe out player-owned stuff and destroy it, or more likely you just wipe the database clean and start the system up again as empty.
But I would definitely key sleeper strength to the duration of player presence. Not necessarily to the intensity of player usage of the space, but to the duration of time. That way you encourage folks to come in with a fleet and exploit the hell out of the system, AND ensure that they leave in the end. (either with holds full of goodies to sell in k-space or in coffins, and I'd be good w. either as a dev)
Yeah, I think I'd do it as an inverted relationship. The more player activity, the less of sleepers. Maybe cause it to curve as the poster above me mentioned, where they actively resist you up to a certain point.
But in the end, I'd definitely cause the sleepers to abandon the system altogether. I think this would help encourage players to leave, as T3 production and loot will be a very real draw for many players.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.03.04 17:10:00 -
[35]
Setting up a POS in W-Space and tending to its fuel requirements for a 'permanent' thing like moon mining is not going to be easy. It will require insane amounts of logistics, manpower and time, any rewards people get for going through that is well earned if you ask me.
I do expect people to set up temporary small pos'es to build ammo, drones and maybe replacement BS on site. .
Either way, there is a 3 minute timer for reactivating a WH once you have gone through, so there should be ample opportunity to disrupt traffic .. Dreads become a moot point if the POS off-lines from hunger.
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Gaius Aemilius
Wormhole-space Surveying and Exploitation
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Posted - 2009.03.04 17:26:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Setting up a POS in W-Space and tending to its fuel requirements for a 'permanent' thing like moon mining is not going to be easy. It will require insane amounts of logistics, manpower and time, any rewards people get for going through that is well earned if you ask me.
From what I'm reading it doesn't sound hard at all. It just sounds like it will take planning and cooperation to permanently colonize a w-system.
If all you're doing is dropping a POS for mining moon resources, well, that's just trivial. Any surveying fleet can do that, and should be unless you're planning on living out of an orca in a safe-spot.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.04 19:27:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Setting up a POS in W-Space and tending to its fuel requirements for a 'permanent' thing like moon mining is not going to be easy. It will require insane amounts of logistics, manpower and time, any rewards people get for going through that is well earned if you ask me.
I do expect people to set up temporary small pos'es to build ammo, drones and maybe replacement BS on site. .
Either way, there is a 3 minute timer for reactivating a WH once you have gone through, so there should be ample opportunity to disrupt traffic .. Dreads become a moot point if the POS off-lines from hunger.
even if it was incredibly hard, it's still virtually impossible to dislodge.
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CCP Abathur
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Posted - 2009.03.04 20:09:00 -
[38]
There will be a dev blog going up tomorrow that should answer most of the questions in this thread. Once it is up, I'll be on forum watch and on SiSi for a bit to do some Q&A.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.04 20:50:00 -
[39]
Originally by: CCP Abathur There will be a dev blog going up tomorrow that should answer most of the questions in this thread. Once it is up, I'll be on forum watch and on SiSi for a bit to do some Q&A.
http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time
So by tomorrow, I'm thinking.....Monday.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Heikki
Gallente Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2009.03.04 20:55:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden What happens when a corp sets up a deathstar POS on a highend w-space moon?
Currently K-space moons are controlled by those who can move most large fleets effectively.
W-Space might be welcoming change for that; limiting the advantage of numbers (and hence, giving that so often cried 'stuff for small corps').
Would think the first persons to scan and populate high-end moons in W-Space get to keep it for a while. Eventually, once free resources has been exploited, they'll have to also defend it.
Deathstar alone is not invulnerable; it's somewhat similar as fighting against cynojammer moons but with a bit fewer people. And requires dedication from both defender and attacker : i.e. ability to keep the whole fleet in the same system during reinforcement timer.
Killing the tower is pretty 'trivial' after you get your medium fleet of logistics and battleships in place. If your corp really wants it.
-Lasse
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ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.03.04 20:58:00 -
[41]
2500 w systems theres gunna be a lot of offline poses perhaps if they go off line and run out of reinforced they should become scoopable by someone else.
it would take a doubling of the player base to colonize 2500 systems from what i can see average 8 planets per wsystem, 6 moons per planet.42x2500 = um nearly 100,000 moons.
If someone can find a dypso moon good luck to em perhaps in wspace ccp can eventualy introduce a system that changes the contents of a moon once a week.
Or put limits on the amount of guns on wspace poses allow all the other modules but limit combat related modules so that u can at least take em down with a large sized bs fleet.
I think unless we get to 100k plyaers online at once and the possibility of ccp adding more wspace say another 2500 systems for each of the 3 remaining ancient races ( 7500 extra systems) + jove space we aint gunna run out for a while
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Legionos McGuiros
Caldari Catch Twenty Two
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Posted - 2009.03.04 21:04:00 -
[42]
Umm i have another suggestion?
If you find a 'occupied' system then go look for another, theres 2499 new systems, if your quick your likely to find a system all to yourself!
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Carniflex
Caldari Schmoo Manufacturing Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.04 21:23:00 -
[43]
Dedicated people who are willing to put in the effort will be able to kill the POS in W-space. Or the defenders need sizable combat gang in system all times 23/7 to keep anyone attempting.
Trick is - it's going to be hard on occasion to replace POS guns, so dedicated attacker can pop guns over time (it's not that hard actually incapaciate pos guns) - even with those insane resists on the hull of them. Just takes good gang knowing exactly what they are doing. POS even with POS gunners is not that scary without support gang against competent opponent.
Any wormhole big enough for 4 battleships is big enough for 30 strong HAC/Command ship gang etc. So numbers will also be possibility for bigger groups.
It is ofc quite serious effort, but knowing that anyone else attempting to take your new stronghold from you it just might be worth it. Assuming there is anything worthy of mining at all in those w-space moons.
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Legionos McGuiros
Caldari Catch Twenty Two
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Posted - 2009.03.04 21:43:00 -
[44]
You guys are all paranoid, it wont be worth the effort trying to dislodge someone from a system, just move on and find another!
Better yet pull ya resources together?! *gasp*!!11
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CCP Abathur
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Posted - 2009.03.05 06:13:00 -
[45]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: CCP Abathur There will be a dev blog going up tomorrow that should answer most of the questions in this thread. Once it is up, I'll be on forum watch and on SiSi for a bit to do some Q&A.
http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time
So by tomorrow, I'm thinking.....Monday.
No, Thursday. Which is actually today now.
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Gaius Aemilius
Wormhole-space Surveying and Exploitation
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Posted - 2009.03.05 16:12:00 -
[46]
So it looks like CCP's plan to discourage ownership of a system was to remove the moon goo from all moons in w-space.
I don't actually think that will work to stop colonies.
What it will do is reduce their profitability and make the ssytems more like each other in the sense that no one system will be obviously better than another due to the moons it has. Whether or not systems will have other differentiable characteristics that are desirable is open to debate. But we clearly can't evaluate a system on the basis of the moons and what sorts of mins they have.
Disappointing info on moon goo in w-space
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Wingshard
Ikazuchi and Raikou Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.03.05 16:30:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Wingshard on 05/03/2009 16:33:29
Originally by: Gaius Aemilius
Disappointing info on moon goo in w-space
aye...
here goes another chance to regulate the market on dyspro and promethium without having to wait for the next load of sale to come from an entity that owns several of them and now and than feels like but generaly are not good in sharing.
yes i am mad. t2 manufacturing cost on most of my stuff is screwed up thanks to the partcost.... all the skilltime for invention rendered rather uselss cause of 2 kinds of moonminerals some people just have to much but most of the others cant lay a finger on and prolly wont thanks to the wealth they have to fortify them easy.
perfect solution gone to spread more dysproisum and promethium *could have even been placed in w-hole that never have a direct exit to k-space and need 1 or more other wormholes to get through first* since it also wouldnt be daily accessable to market gone, well done.
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Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.05 16:33:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Marlenus on 05/03/2009 16:33:32 Industry in W-space is now down to a simple question: are the logistical difficulties of W-space less important than your protection from cap fleets and large fleets of battleships?
It's still an interesting alternative to a high-sec POS, for folks with war problems or insufficient faction. ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Wingshard
Ikazuchi and Raikou Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.03.05 16:46:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Marlenus
It's still an interesting alternative to a high-sec POS, for folks with war problems or insufficient faction.
no it isnt.
the only really reason to plant a highsec pos nowadays is to research/copy blueprints.
due to the skill scientif networking you can store the bpo in station and remote research/copy them. in wormhole space that isnt possible hence you would place several bpos with a lot of worth in labs that can blasted while you are not there.
not to mention you gamble. since a large pos in empire is a hourgrinding piece of s*** to take down and that even without fitting and requires a constant number of 30+ people, it can be blasted in wormhole space by capital ships without the chance of bringing new mods in at easy while the attacker takes a break.
no to mention repairs and restront wont be done from you directly after its sieged which means that you might run out of "gametime" cause of your job whatever before you find a new wormhole to buy new stront among 26+ signatures.
stil all the attacker has to do is to log out and log back in once the timer is over. may takes time for them but he also dont has a reason to travel somewhere else since it wont be that easy for him to get back. but you will have a hard time getting your stuff out of the pos and maybe end up with your ship in wormhole space, having lots and lots of stil unresearched bpos in your cargo *thanks to aborting*.
by 2500 systems i dont wanna say that will happen imideatly but it can happen and than its prolly that time where you are at least online thanks to things running smoothly and than loosing it in a short amount of time.
not to mention there are people offering the factionstanding for isk. well its expensive but a 1 time purchasement *Aslong you dont move after 7days* and fuel can be transported to the pos even during war aswell as mods and co *just need to be anchored afterwards unseen ;)*.
i just dont see a valueable point in wormhole space for "constant" industry now. well i can move orca/rorqual and hulks in but the people are better sure to have no implants. not to mention do sleepers spawn in those belts you can find? if yes than its surely not that much for miners aswell taking their strengh into account.
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Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.05 17:09:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Wingshard
Originally by: Marlenus It's still an interesting alternative to a high-sec POS, for folks with war problems or insufficient faction.
no it isnt.
I said "interesting". I didn't say "safer" or "easier" or "more profitable". ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
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Don Capo
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Posted - 2009.03.05 17:52:00 -
[51]
Quote: Starbases are allowed to be anchored in W-space but cannot claim sovereignty. Additionally, there are no minable moon minerals in W-space.
CCP please reconsider this decision. You cut out a great part if this stays true.
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Gaius Aemilius
Wormhole-space Surveying and Exploitation
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Posted - 2009.03.05 18:04:00 -
[52]
In Sci. & Ind. some folks are speculating that this will make this new release the equivalent of boosters, something that will in the end be ignored by the majority of people.
I'm not sure I agree, but I do think that removing moon goo is possibly the worst option available to CCP for trying to prevent colonziation. Because I don't think will even slow down those who are doing it for philosophical reasons, and because it removes a lot of the incentive to go into w-space at all for a lot of folks.
But time will tell. I know I'm still planning on throwing a colony fleet in. But Wessex may end up being more of a support corp for the explorer corps than what I had initially hoped.
Time will tell.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.03.05 18:07:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Don Capo Edited by: Don Capo on 05/03/2009 18:03:18 Edited by: Don Capo on 05/03/2009 18:03:02
Quote: Starbases are allowed to be anchored in W-space but cannot claim sovereignty. Additionally, there are no minable moon minerals in W-space.
CCP please reconsider this decision. You cut out a great part if this stays true. It's not that it would require a lot of effort on your side to seed moonminerals, yet it would give especially corps that are to small to survive in 0.0 a challenge, maintaining a profitable POS in W-Space.
Don't be ridiculous. If it's doable for a small corp, it's much easier to do for a big corp. If there's moon minerals in wormspace they'll be snapped up by the big boys just like in knownspace.
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Wingshard
Ikazuchi and Raikou Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.03.05 18:14:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Don Capo Edited by: Don Capo on 05/03/2009 18:03:18 Edited by: Don Capo on 05/03/2009 18:03:02
Quote: Starbases are allowed to be anchored in W-space but cannot claim sovereignty. Additionally, there are no minable moon minerals in W-space.
CCP please reconsider this decision. You cut out a great part if this stays true. It's not that it would require a lot of effort on your side to seed moonminerals, yet it would give especially corps that are to small to survive in 0.0 a challenge, maintaining a profitable POS in W-Space.
Don't be ridiculous. If it's doable for a small corp, it's much easier to do for a big corp. If there's moon minerals in wormspace they'll be snapped up by the big boys just like in knownspace.
but unlike as in k-space they have restriction. on how many people can enter at a given time, what size of ships etc.
they cant just capital outblob anyone who trys to get their stuff like it is here.
so the people who really intend on living there are highly favored over allready spaceholding entitys that prefer to keep their fleet outside to be able to protect themselves / (counter)attack others.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.03.05 18:18:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 05/03/2009 18:21:15 You appear to be suggesting that big corps would quite happily sit by and ignore the moons of wormspace, letting their competitors in and claim them in perpetuity.
If there are minable moons, then everyone will rush in and grab them. And big corps, having the numbers and resources, will not just inevitably grab the lion's share, but will also be more likely to have the organisation and logistics necessary to remove smaller corps' mining POS.
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Wingshard
Ikazuchi and Raikou Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.03.05 18:31:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 05/03/2009 18:21:15 You appear to be suggesting that big corps would quite happily sit by and ignore the moons of wormspace, letting their competitors in and claim them in perpetuity.
If there are minable moons, then everyone will rush in and grab them. And big corps, having the numbers and resources, will not just inevitably grab the lion's share, but will also be more likely to have the organisation and logistics necessary to remove smaller corps' mining POS.
i dont say big corps would ignore it.
i said that alliances ALLREADY HOLDING SPACE wont look much into them since they risk loosing numbers that are needed in normal warfare.
sure big corps would rush for them but its also their opportunity to get on the same footing isk wise with allready spaceholding entitys. you wanna take 0.0 nowadays? well what awaits you? a person paying less to sit in place thanks to sovereignity. a person making tens of billions a month *not counting lower end moons and reactions* just doing so with some minor logistic* a person able to doomsday several hours of missioning *if you come from highsec as an example* out of you with a single click while being protected from capital ships. a person that can resupply their member with the isk they earn at easy and not loosing out any isk to fuel since cost is decreased.
what rules the world is not only numbers but rather isk in comparsion with numbers.
there are a lot of big corps and even minor alliances outthere who would do pretty well with this option. not everyone would hold those moons but if those entitys would acctualy get the chance to be on barely even footing with the bigguys on infrastructure *with more hazzle* i dont see why it should be bad.
an attacker being able to reimburse his lost dreadnaughts after a siege just like any 0.0 holding entitys mostly easy does today....and that several times? great they got a reason to not stay back and hold their shiny ships in her hangar just because loosing it would mean several more days of missiongrinind.
the fight for those stuff will ever be there. but unlike known space this WOULD give smaller alliances the chance to get the feeling of how to control space, and how to hold it with the experience on how to use it. be sure they would try it out in known space once they are used to it too.
not to mention constant war in wormhole space would also increase and 2500 new systems is a big big playground.
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Don Capo
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Posted - 2009.03.05 18:37:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 05/03/2009 18:21:15 You appear to be suggesting that big corps would quite happily sit by and ignore the moons of wormspace, letting their competitors in and claim them in perpetuity.
If there are minable moons, then everyone will rush in and grab them. And big corps, having the numbers and resources, will not just inevitably grab the lion's share, but will also be more likely to have the organisation and logistics necessary to remove smaller corps' mining POS.
Ok look even a small corp could have been fortunate enough to find a usefull moon and start to mine it with a large tower. now how long would it take your big corporation to find said moon ? And how long would it take your organisation to place enough firepower in this system to take that pos down ?
Sure if its a dyso moon it would be under a constant danger, but not instakill like in low null sec.
You will have to agree with me that there is no benefit for the playerbase at all, by not having moon mins no matter how competition would have turned out in the end.
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Assassin Zer0
Amarr PURE Legion
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Posted - 2009.03.05 19:17:00 -
[58]
Well... honestly I'm not at all interested in venturing into w-space for isk anymore. =(
Guess I'll just have to stick to ganking ppl there. =/ Shame really, I would have been happier with killmails+isk.
I guess there is always a chance they could be carrying valuable sleeper loot. If your a human being I love you =D unless your stupid =P
WARNING: My ship made of imaginary pixels might kill your ship made of imaginary pixels. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.03.05 20:17:00 -
[59]
Quote: i said that alliances ALLREADY HOLDING SPACE wont look much into them since they risk loosing numbers that are needed in normal warfare.
Don't be so naive. People wouldn't turn down the chance of a free, almost-invincible ISK press - you, for one. It would be easily managed with alts, and there's not that much serious territorial warfare going on anyway. The big spaceholding alliances would probably be most interested in it - logistics would be easiest for them, after all.
Quote: You will have to agree with me that there is no benefit for the playerbase at all, by not having moon mins no matter how competition would have turned out in the end.
On the contrary, I see no benefit to the game from allowing people to set up almost invincible ISK printing machines, whether they're small corps or big spaceholding alliances.
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Don Capo
Katsu Corporation
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Posted - 2009.03.05 20:23:00 -
[60]
Quote: On the contrary, I see no benefit to the game from allowing people to set up almost invincible ISK printing machines
ROFL at this.
1. They arent invincible at all. The better the moon the bigger the challenge to defend them, because trust me on this one, if its worth it people will bring ships to take it. 2. If thats really your point, then let's convert all T2 Bpo's into 100 Run BPC's they are the only real zero risk, isk printmachines.
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