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The Solution to Learning Skills!

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buttesauce	Posted - 2009.03.04 17:19:00 - [1] One of the worst things to do when a new character starts out is being forced to train learning skills. Anyone with half a brain will realize that you really need to train them first. Add in the fact then when newbies hear that they need to spend their first week training learning skills and it makes new players not even want to bother with the game. My solution... Remove Advanced Learning skills Give everyone +5 to all attributes Give anyone with an advanced learning skill trained a free days of double speed training per level of of skill that they have trained. This is a win-win-win solution for everyone. Noobs only have to train the basic learning skills which are pretty quick. Everyone gets +5 to all attributes irregardless People with advanced learning skills will get compensated with faster training time for a short period of time.
Torain	Posted - 2009.03.04 17:41:00 - [2] I'll let you know why your idea is unworkable. You can have 5 levels in an Advanced Learning skill. It takes significantly longer than 5 days to train those skills to level 5. 1 free day? Yeah right. There is no fair way to do this. Also... Originally by: buttesauce irregardless Really?
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.03.04 17:42:00 - [3] This isn't a new idea, there have been many similiar suggestions. I do not support this idea/change. The learning skills are an option. The only thing broken is the absurd instance to new players that they MUST train all the learning skills first. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.03.04 17:48:00 - [4] I have the solution to training Learning Skills. It's called the "Suck it up, princess" plan. Train them, get them out of the way, and stop trying to change it for those of us who did it. Besides, it separates the wheat from the chaff, if you know what I mean. We're Recruiting!
Yamato Gasaraki	Posted - 2009.03.04 17:54:00 - [5] CCP did Admit it was a bad Idea to add them in the first Place. I'd say kick 'em out, reward Players who have them with free SP to be spend on any Skill of the same Rank and it's over once and for all. Warning: Your Subscription is running out. Please buy a new GTC to continue playing on these Boards.
Kiay Stryx Gallente Phoenix Mandate	Posted - 2009.03.04 21:41:00 - [6] Originally by: Yamato Gasaraki CCP did Admit it was a bad Idea to add them in the first Place. I'd say kick 'em out, reward Players who have them with free SP to be spend on any Skill of the same Rank and it's over once and for all. Building a whole system just to out learning skills is counter productive. After a month, the system is obsolete. Id rather they spend their time on new expansions to come. ~Stryx
Eisbrecker Minmatar DevilDog Brigade	Posted - 2009.03.04 22:36:00 - [7] I agree, don't need a program to balance it...just take em out. Leave skills as they are after character creation. Those that trained it...oh well, they're done anyhow (yes I've trained most of them). Give em a million isk or something call it a day. CCP has gotta make this game a more customer friendly place if it wants new players.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities	Posted - 2009.03.05 00:42:00 - [8] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 05/03/2009 00:45:44 Originally by: buttesauce One of the worst things to do when a new character starts out is being forced to train learning skills. Yes, that's bad. Solution: Don't do it. Train learning and other skills alternately. ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well "Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam"
Calgura Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.05 01:02:00 - [9] Originally by: Eisbrecker I agree, don't need a program to balance it...just take em out. Leave skills as they are after character creation. Those that trained it...oh well, they're done anyhow (yes I've trained most of them). Give em a million isk or something call it a day. CCP has gotta make this game a more customer friendly place if it wants new players. So, About 2-3 weeks of training per advanced learning skill (for us crazy enough to get them to 5) should amount in 1 million isk "and call it a day" ?!? For the sake of argument, let's say 2 weeks per advanced skill. That's 10 weeks in all, or 2+ months, giving CCP a free 37Ç per european customer (who's trained the skill to 5), all in exchange for 1 million isk which will hardly buy and fit a frigate (I never fit anything less than t2 ). I'd sign anything that let's us redistribute those skillpoints into other areas, but won't support anything where it's just taken away.
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.03.05 01:14:00 - [10] Originally by: Calgura I'd sign anything that let's us redistribute those skillpoints into other areas, but won't support anything where it's just taken away. I've got 5 mil and some change in learning skills. I'd like my full money's worth if they take them out.
Nnamuachs Caldari Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.05 05:47:00 - [11] Remove learning skills, redistribute the SP, everyone goes back to base attributes... everyones unhappy so its a balanced solution and fair right? /discussion
King Rothgar Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.05 06:01:00 - [12] I like the idea of removing skills completely. Would grant an even greater advantage to isk buyers but whatever, it's better than current setup.
Psihius Caldari Atomic Scrapyard	Posted - 2009.03.05 07:50:00 - [13] Train them and train faster. In long term you save lots of time. If you just remove them, than training advanced skills will be twice longer and I don't want to train a skill 3 months when now it takes about a 1.5 month. Training titan already takes 2 years, remove the skills and you have to train 4 years - that's obviously too much.
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium	Posted - 2009.03.05 13:18:00 - [14] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Originally by: Calgura I'd sign anything that let's us redistribute those skillpoints into other areas, but won't support anything where it's just taken away. I've got 5 mil and some change in learning skills. I'd like my full money's worth if they take them out. this though I would rather they stay in imo. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
NightF0x Gallente Intergalactic League of Terrorists	Posted - 2009.03.05 22:31:00 - [15] There's nothing wrong with learning skills if people would stop insisting that new players train them first. They should be trained as you have time. Constantly you see new players complaining about learning them only because someone insisted that they do so. ------------------------------------
Mattk50 Caldari House Maadiah	Posted - 2009.03.05 22:40:00 - [16] the IQ level just keeps dropping... So all of you want to take out the learning skills? do you know how much time would be added to your skill training? are you just jealous of the people who have patience to train them? if you dont like them, just dont use them.
203 Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.05 23:39:00 - [17] Edited by: 203 on 05/03/2009 23:42:10 Originally by: Psihius I don't want to train a skill 3 months when now it takes about a 1.5 month. Training titan already takes 2 years, remove the skills and you have to train 4 years - that's obviously too much. Originally by: Mattk50 So all of you want to take out the learning skills? do you know how much time would be added to your skill training? You do realize that, if learning is removed, all Skills need to be rebalanced? Especialy Titan Skills as they clearly came after the Learnings... It's all fun and Games 'till someone's broke :) - T'is an alt for playing the Forum -
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.03.06 00:02:00 - [18] Learning skills are not broken. Why bother about something which is not broken at all? Mostly new players whine about that so my proposal is: Hide learnings for players younger then 3 month and advanced ones for players younger then 6 month. But on the other side, why nerfing players being able to decide their self if they want to use them? Why the hell are people unable to use their own brain?
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.06 02:12:00 - [19] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 06/03/2009 02:16:02 Even if players are smart and don't train them all up immediately, they will have to eventually, which is dumb. The EVE skill system works because you're always training towards something cool/fun that you want. I'm currently training salvaging V. I'm going to feel awesome when it's trained...or, actually, 2 days after it finishes when I can equip the new Salvager IIs on my Ninjaboat. A few weeks ago, I finished up my cap skills to V and felt good as it made a pretty noticeable improvement in cap stability on my Wolf Awhile ago, I dedicated time to training up my gunnery support skills to IV, and enjoyed the greatly improved gun performance. At one point, I trained up Cloaking to IV...it felt -damn- good to be able to tool around lowsec cloaking whenever the ** I want. what do all those things have in common? They were fun. I never felt like I was just waiting for some meaningless bull to finish so I could get onto the real stuff...each skill completion is something new that I'm able to do. Learning skills are ing boring. One of the few things EVE does that makes it hospitable to new players is that the first ranks of skills train up fast, so a newbie can expand his skillset in whatever direction he wants, significantly, in days. Each day he'll be able to do something new, or do something significantly better. Learning skills pretty much destroy that. This is of course the way it is now. In Apocrypha, it's going to be even worse. Someone posted a mathematical breakdown of learning skills post-Apocrypha, and figured out that a new player who does not train learning skills immediately is SERIOUSLY gimping himself even in the short term. Quote:** Why the hell are people unable to use their own brain? I propose that a new skillset be added. They can be called "Stability" skills. They are rank 15 skills. Whenever you undock in a ship, you have a 50% chance of it just arbitrarily blowing up. There's a stability skill for each ship class...t1 frigs, destroyers, assault frigates, etc. Each level in the skill reduces the chance to blow up by 20%. In order to have a 0% chance of your ship popping arbitrarily, you must train this rank 15 skill to level 5. If anyone complains, I'll just tell them that people should use their own brain, that they can choose NOT to train the skills if they don't want to. For all intents and purposes, you have to train the learning skills. You shouldn't force people to make a choice between "fun" and "effectiveness"
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2009.03.06 02:13:00 - [20] 1) Remove all learning skills. 2) Give all characters across the board a +10 In Attributes. (That's 5 Points for Basic Skills, and 5 Points for Advanced Skills). 3) Compensate all the players with 50% of the SP lost, due to learning skills removal, to be distributed however they see fit. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Kobushi OCForums	Posted - 2009.03.06 07:31:00 - [21] I say keep them cause if you are too impatient to learn them to at least 4/3 that do you think the day they decide to fly a mom, the forum server will become hot slag from the whine and flame war, BS 5 don't even thing about it, support skills don't need them I,ll just fill the GMs petition boxes and make sure nothing is done within 3 months so much the queue is backed up. I'd rather have a somewhat harsh intro to the new player so they know what to expect in the future rather then retain a high number of player that are in the wrong game for them...I know a product should have an as broad as possible client appeal but at which point do you go too far and dilute the product to the point it just end up displeasing everyone. I say keep the skills and keep eve-online soul intact.
Kiay Stryx Gallente Phoenix Mandate	Posted - 2009.03.06 10:45:00 - [22] Originally by: Jinx Barker 1) Remove all learning skills. 2) Give all characters across the board a +10 In Attributes. (That's 5 Points for Basic Skills, and 5 Points for Advanced Skills). 3) Compensate all the players with 50% of the SP lost, due to learning skills removal, to be distributed however they see fit. Why are people obsessed with this 50% thing? How is that compensation? Why should I lose 50% of my skill points (in learning) because you don't want learning skills? Skill redistribution makes no sense in Eve Online, they can get away with neural remapping, but the day I see skill redistribution is the day I look for another MMORPG. So with that in mind, do you think its fair for CCP to develop a system of redistribution of skills for the sole part of outing learning skills? Which would become obsolete after a few months. If you really think so, why on earth shouldn't I get all my SP back? ~Stryx
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.03.06 11:35:00 - [23] If the learning skills were removed, within a week we'd see a post about the Level V skills. "Make them train faster!" or "Start everyone at Level 2 of all skills" or some other nonsense because "the level V's are too hard and they make new people discouraged and they leave the game! waaaaaahhh!" Leave the learning skills as-is. The system makes sense. Stop brainwashing new pilots that they must train learning first - it's nonsense. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium	Posted - 2009.03.06 13:00:00 - [24] Edited by: Typhado3 on 06/03/2009 13:02:43 Originally by: Kahega Amielden Even if players are smart and don't train them all up immediately, they will have to eventually, which is dumb. not really, I don't see why I should train up charisma skills on my pvp alt only need leadership 5 so not much work there. Or why should my r&d alt train up perc/will?? not really gonna use them so why train them. Yes I realise these are special cases but you make it sound like ccp forces you to train these skills that give you nothing. Originally by: Kahega Amielden The EVE skill system works because you're always training towards something cool/fun that you want. The idea of getting all those cool things 50% faster isn't cool/fun to you? It's not the immediate reward the others offer but I thought eve had ppl look forward planning not the instant gratification sort of system. I'll give you 3 good reasons not to remove learning skills 1. The moment you give reimbursement of sp all those ridiculous half whines about getting their sp reimbursed after a nerf are gonna get kinda out of control. That or you go the path of giving no / low compensation which destroys the whole idea of investing time/$ into eve, not only may your sp become useless as the item is nerfed but they may get straight out removed. 2. Why not remove more skills that everyone has and are really just stepping stones in the way to the ship/item you want. for example the fitting skills.... they aren't exactly much fun to train up as they don't add anything to actual combat, everyone already has them trained up to 5 it's just ccp make noobs wait 2 weeks training them up to 5 before they can fly a ship efficiently or properly. 3. Eve is about getting more reward if you put in more effort. If you train 4/3 in learning and use +2's u won't get as much as the guy who did 5/4 and uses +3's or as much as the guy who did 5/5 and uses +5's. Its one of the whole investment -> reward thing removing learning skills takes it away and replaces it with a bland everyone is the same way of doing things. Yes I realize this is a pretty biased post but I figure it's needed considering the number of biased anti-learning posts. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Ixion Dracolich Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.06 15:13:00 - [25] Edited by: Ixion Dracolich on 06/03/2009 15:14:15 Slightly different approach. Rather than messing about finding a way to remove learning skills just set them at 5/5 for everyone. Training times are not increased for anyone No one needs to go through the "boredom" of learning them New players will still never catch up the old ones so the SP gap is maintained. Yes they'll get to certain skills quicker than was possible in the "old days" but then experienced pilots will have also moved on. BIG DOWNSIDE Those of us that have already paid SP to train them will have effectively "lost out" but then is that really any different to CCP making equipment / abilities "obselete" in the past?
maranne marachian	Posted - 2009.03.06 17:54:00 - [26] or you could just give a flat +10 to all attributes and grant the people that have learning skills a learning boost for 2x their current learning SP at 2x speed you have 5 mill in learning? get 10 mill in the time it takes a normal player to get 5 or you could go even faster the system is already there in apoc it would be a case of doing a database lookup on each char to set the ammounts but that could be easily done during a major patch downtime. Quick effective and not overly unfair to either side.
Kifor Hellhund	Posted - 2009.03.06 18:17:00 - [27] Edited by: Kifor Hellhund on 06/03/2009 18:17:47 nevermind
Marcus Gideon Gallente Excessive Force	Posted - 2009.03.06 20:36:00 - [28] This topic comes up ALL the time, and it's always the same two sides arguing. Learning Skills ARE optional, just like every other skill in the game is optional. However, the training system in EVE is based on real time, which in turn is based on paying for your account. So you could start with your base stats, and never touch a Learning skill again. And you would have a fully functional character. It could fly a ship, it could fit a gun, it could buy and sell on Market. BUT... it would take you days to get Lvl 2 skills, weeks to get Lvl 3-4, and months to get Lvl 5. And all that time waiting for a numerical value to get +1 in a database somewhere in the world, is costing you real money or real time accumulating ISK to buy time cards. So it is completely and utterly asinine to repeatedly chant "You don't have to train them", when quite clearly you do, if you want to get your money's worth out of the game. If you have cash literally flowing out of your a$$, then sure! Don't train anything up. Let your first Cruiser take a few months. Certainly you'll get to the point of being able to make enough ISK for GTC in... a couple years? Though I don't claim to have a solution verbatim, I would have to think that the problem lies in the overall idea of Attributes in general. Saying that we should get rid of Advanced Learning, or Learning period... and just add +5/+10 to everyone... it makes everyone equal again. The only variation would be in the base stats. And those could go one of two ways. Apoc is bringing the respec, which you could toy with the base stats once a year... or base stats would be set to 3-4 across the board, just like Sisi won't let you adjust your stats beyond that 3-4 now. So... everyone gets a base 3, plus 10, and skills train at the identical speeds regardless. Might as well just get rid of Attributes, and just make overall training times a little shorter. Then when a skillbook says "Rank 2" you know exactly how long it'll take, regardless of Race, Specialization, or Training. --- Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word. "Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST"
Reygrimm	Posted - 2009.03.06 21:19:00 - [29] How about... They get rid of the Advanced learning skills, and then for compensation to those that have them trained, you get an implant of that level. Example: Have Eidetic Memory trained to 5? Get a +5 Mem implant. Reygrimm
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.03.06 23:24:00 - [30] How about that: - for having a learning skill of rank X trained at lvl Y, you will get the ability to raise one other skill of rank X (same Rank as the learning) to the lvl Y (same lvl as the learning skill) - INSTANTLY. This would be closer to be a fair reimbursement. "A free imp of the same value" -> personal thought: "Are you nuts?" Even when you offer me 200mil for one of my advanced learnings (which are all at lvl 5) i will reject. Yeah i know you think what? 200mil is so much. Can you imagine the fun i had while i trained them to lvl 5 instead of reaching some new shiny t2 items/ships?
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.03.06 23:26:00 - [31] Originally by: Reygrimm How about... They get rid of the Advanced learning skills, and then for compensation to those that have them trained, you get an implant of that level. Example: Have Eidetic Memory trained to 5? Get a +5 Mem implant. Reygrimm I have the advanced learing skills trained to 5. I already have +5 implants in one of my clones. How could you possibly think this would be an attractive offer to anyone? Why don't we randomly delete 3,840,000 of your skill points and then give you 80 mil units of tritanium?
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2009.03.07 03:18:00 - [32] Why not just give all new players lvl 3 of all the basic learning skills and just leave the rest alone? ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006.
Kobushi OCForums	Posted - 2009.03.07 07:59:00 - [33] Originally by: Allen Ramses Why not just give all new players lvl 3 of all the basic learning skills and just leave the rest alone? OR...I know this might just sound too crazy but bare with me for a second: use the post-patch ingame mechanics that will allow you to hit 100+ attribute points in under 11 days and have about say 80% of the attribute point of a maxed out chatacter. 10 days in eve is like a drop in an ocean.

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