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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.06 08:22:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Tobin Arkon
The reason most carebares don't goto nullsec is because they don't feel welcome there. Most nullsec alliances are NBSI and shoot anything that moves without provocation, they rule their territory like tyrants.
When I was 21 I got lucky and found a job that paid 18 USD / hour. I worked there for 6months and quit because everyone was a bunch of *******s. I'm 30 now and only make 15 an hour...but I'm happier because I like the folks I work with. There are only 2 things that need to be done to get folks into Nullsec and neither of them is related to Eve game mechanics.
1) Carebares need to take the chance and risk actually TALKING to the Nullsec alliances, they may actually find some people they like and can work with.
2) The Nullsec alliances need to tone down the elitist / tyrant attitudes and actually try welcoming new folks into playing instead of shooting them on site
tl;dr - people only go where they feel welcome, carebares arn't welcome in nullsec, so they don't go there.
Carebears would be more welcome in 0.0 if they abandon carebear attitudes. I'm not saying that this is you, or everyone, but this is a very common syndrome:
An industrial corp moves to 0.0, and acts like they're doing the alliance a big favour, just by being there. They rarely contribute to PvP ops, which is fair enough, but they generally don't support the alliance in any other way either. "Oh but we put ships on the market". Yeah, great - at a 20-50% markup over empire prices. Some support. Meanwhile the PvPers are spending their time and their ISK defending alliance space... paying the carebears inflated prices for the ships they lose doing so, while hearing the 'bears whine that they lost a hulk last week and boo hoo, no-one gives us any respect.
Join an alliance. Provide 5 battleships or 10 battlecruisers per week to the alliance ship replacement fund, and see if you're welcome then. I bet you will be. Yeah it'll take some of your time to do this. Welcome to the PvPer's world, where you have to dedicate a percentage of your efforts to maintaining the alliance's hold on the space you're in.
Hint: do NOT say "oh but we pay refinery taxes, that's our contribution". This will not go down at all well with PvP pilots who pay tax on their ratting income.
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OhMahGOD
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Posted - 2009.03.06 08:44:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Tobin Arkon
The reason most carebares don't goto nullsec is because they don't feel welcome there. Most nullsec alliances are NBSI and shoot anything that moves without provocation, they rule their territory like tyrants.
When I was 21 I got lucky and found a job that paid 18 USD / hour. I worked there for 6months and quit because everyone was a bunch of *******s. I'm 30 now and only make 15 an hour...but I'm happier because I like the folks I work with. There are only 2 things that need to be done to get folks into Nullsec and neither of them is related to Eve game mechanics.
1) Carebares need to take the chance and risk actually TALKING to the Nullsec alliances, they may actually find some people they like and can work with.
2) The Nullsec alliances need to tone down the elitist / tyrant attitudes and actually try welcoming new folks into playing instead of shooting them on site
tl;dr - people only go where they feel welcome, carebares arn't welcome in nullsec, so they don't go there.
I don't know whether I should cry for you or laugh at you, for everything in that post but for the love of god GET SOME JOB TRAINING.
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Tobin Arkon
Minmatar
Tribal Core
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Posted - 2009.03.06 08:46:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Tobin Arkon on 06/03/2009 08:46:42
I don't know whether I should cry for you or laugh at you, for everything in that post but for the love of god GET SOME JOB TRAINING.
you sir....you are the reason no one plays in nullsec
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Tobin Arkon
Minmatar
Tribal Core
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Posted - 2009.03.06 09:00:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Malcanis
Carebears would be more welcome in 0.0 if they abandon carebear attitudes. I'm not saying that this is you, or everyone, but this is a very common syndrome:
An industrial corp moves to 0.0, and acts like they're doing the alliance a big favour, just by being there. They rarely contribute to PvP ops, which is fair enough, but they generally don't support the alliance in any other way either. "Oh but we put ships on the market". Yeah, great - at a 20-50% markup over empire prices. Some support. Meanwhile the PvPers are spending their time and their ISK defending alliance space... paying the carebears inflated prices for the ships they lose doing so, while hearing the 'bears whine that they lost a hulk last week and boo hoo, no-one gives us any respect.
Join an alliance. Provide 5 battleships or 10 battlecruisers per week to the alliance ship replacement fund, and see if you're welcome then. I bet you will be. Yeah it'll take some of your time to do this. Welcome to the PvPer's world, where you have to dedicate a percentage of your efforts to maintaining the alliance's hold on the space you're in.
Hint: do NOT say "oh but we pay refinery taxes, that's our contribution". This will not go down at all well with PvP pilots who pay tax on their ratting income.
You are correct in that is what some carebare corps would have to do in times of war, provide ships. But remember they arn't fighters, they are builders and miners. Not everyone in a country is a soldier.
Me personally, if I were in an industrial corp I would definitely provide ships and as many weapons as I could during war time either for free or at least at production cost, that is how I would contribute.
Then again I personally would always provide ships to the alliance at cost regardless of war time or not.
That is why I said in my first point that the Carebare types need to start talking to the nullsec alliances and see how they can work. They don't deserve a free ride into 0.0 but at the same time they need to be assured some measure of growth.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.06 09:35:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Tobin Arkon
You are correct in that is what some carebare corps would have to do in times of war, provide ships. But remember they arn't fighters, they are builders and miners. Not everyone in a country is a soldier.
Me personally, if I were in an industrial corp I would definitely provide ships and as many weapons as I could during war time either for free or at least at production cost, that is how I would contribute.
Then again I personally would always provide ships to the alliance at cost regardless of war time or not.
That is why I said in my first point that the Carebare types need to start talking to the nullsec alliances and see how they can work. They don't deserve a free ride into 0.0 but at the same time they need to be assured some measure of growth.
In 0.0 it's always "time of war". It's just more intense some times than others.
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Tobin Arkon
Minmatar
Tribal Core
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Posted - 2009.03.06 09:45:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Malcanis
In 0.0 it's always "time of war". It's just more intense some times than others.
I can see that as being true. How then would it be possible for an industrial corp to still provide to the alliance (ie, providing ships free or at cost) and still beable to stay afloat as a corp?
This is a real question, not Hyperbole.
The Nullsec alliances that I have come into contact with all seem very rigid in that they demand all peoples in their alliance adhere the same game play stile as they do.
That turns a lot of folks off, especially the empire types (ie, for lack of a better term, carebares)
I understand that in order for an alliance to succeed all corps involved must work for its betterment, but surely various types of game play can be involved without having to go the route of communism and making everyone adhear to some peoples demands?
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.06 09:48:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Tobin Arkon
Originally by: Malcanis
In 0.0 it's always "time of war". It's just more intense some times than others.
I can see that as being true. How then would it be possible for an industrial corp to still provide to the alliance (ie, providing ships free or at cost) and still beable to stay afloat as a corp?
This is a real question, not Hyperbole.
The same way the PvPers stay afloat while giving their time and spending their ISK to defend the alliance?
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Tobin Arkon
Minmatar
Tribal Core
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Posted - 2009.03.06 09:51:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Malcanis
The same way the PvPers stay afloat while giving their time and spending their ISK to defend the alliance?
which is...? 
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.06 10:07:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Tobin Arkon
Originally by: Malcanis
The same way the PvPers stay afloat while giving their time and spending their ISK to defend the alliance?
which is...?
By ratting, mining, doing invention, manufacturing, whatever, between fights. In other words, the stuff you do.
You see, there's nothing special about being "an industrial corp". PvPers fight and do the stuff you do as well. The difference is you only want to do the stuff PvPers do to make ISK. So if all you're bringing to an alliance is competition for resources, station slots and markets... well, you see why they might expect you to make a contribution to support the PvPers?
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Trathen
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.06 10:11:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Malcanis
By ratting, mining, doing invention, manufacturing, whatever, between fights. In other words, the stuff you do.
You see, there's nothing special about being "an industrial corp". PvPers fight and do the stuff you do as well. The difference is you only want to do the stuff PvPers do to make ISK. So if all you're bringing to an alliance is competition for resources, station slots and markets... well, you see why they might expect you to make a contribution to support the PvPers?
The difference there is most PvPer's enjoy PvP in of itself; they don't see a point to playing EVE online if they can't create a swathe of destruction. We know this because hardcore PvPers are very vocal about how only an idiot would gather ISK all day and the real fun is using it to enhance your ePeen. I imagine the average "true" carebear is wise to this and marks up prices, refuses to fight, and knows when PvPers call PvP "loss and work," they are full of crap.
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Antonia Nambaun
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Posted - 2009.03.06 10:22:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Trathen
Originally by: Malcanis
By ratting, mining, doing invention, manufacturing, whatever, between fights. In other words, the stuff you do.
You see, there's nothing special about being "an industrial corp". PvPers fight and do the stuff you do as well. The difference is you only want to do the stuff PvPers do to make ISK. So if all you're bringing to an alliance is competition for resources, station slots and markets... well, you see why they might expect you to make a contribution to support the PvPers?
The difference there is most PvPer's enjoy PvP in of itself; they don't see a point to playing EVE online if they can't create a swathe of destruction. We know this because hardcore PvPers are very vocal about how only an idiot would gather ISK all day and the real fun is using it to enhance your ePeen. I imagine the average "true" carebear is wise to this and marks up prices, refuses to fight, and knows when PvPers call PvP "loss and work," they are full of crap.
This doesn't really change the underlying point which is that the conventional "industrial" corp tends to contribute nothing. Which is fine - it's basically an awesome scam. |
Trathen
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.06 10:23:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Antonia Nambaun
This doesn't really change the underlying point which is that the conventional "industrial" corp tends to contribute nothing. Which is fine - it's basically an awesome scam.
I would call it "attitude exploitation" 
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Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.03.06 10:25:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Ephemeron
The majority of the players simply do not deserve to live. They definitely don't deserve to make tons of money farming level 4s in their ravens.
We don't want to change the game to be more accessible for the weak and stupid.
And of course with "we" you mean "me and my buddies"?
And of course your style of play is the best and should be the only one allowed?
And of course everyone who disagrees is 'weak', 'doesn't deserve to live' and is an idiot in general?
While I agree that Eve shouldn't become to easy and risk-free, above attitude would quickly kill Eve and I am glad that the devs are less arrogant and have more common sense.
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Jmanis Catharg
Caldari
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.03.06 10:26:00 -
[44]
Quote:
Have you ever actually tried this in poor trusec?
Ratting? LOL. 1-2 double BS spawns per system. most belts have BC spawns. 1 BC and 2 frigates is not uncommon.
Mining? Oh yeah, Hebergedite baby! Jaspet!
POS: most moons won't even cover the cost of POS fuel
Then why don't alliances let me use those systems for a fee, hmm? If they're so "worthless"? Because they don't, and you along with other alliance members echoed that "I had not much to offer the alliance". To be frank, that's pretty typical to most 0.0 alliances though, taking an attitude of "What can you offer the alliance" rather than "This is what the alliance can offer you". Because with that attitude, and the expectations carried along with it (excessive 'fees', inability to anchor large towers, assembly lines, refineries etc), it becomes far more productive to just stay in high sec/low sec doing my thing, where that productivity could in part be going towards an alliance. Instead you just want empty unused systems with that "Sov" status.
Part of me blames the sov system for this attitude though.
On an aside, I tried what you said not in a poor 0.0, I tried it in a low sec, and I was able to make pretty substantially more profit on top of my usual high sec activities, and that was before cloaking cranes. Would be a lot easier today.
---
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.
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Junko Togawa
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Posted - 2009.03.06 10:44:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Ephemeron
I'm starting to realize that the majority of carebears are too weak-willed and stupid to live in 0.0.
Or we don't care about going there. Oh, but that means we don't play the way you do, which automatically makes us stupid.
Quote:
The only way to effectively herd them in 0.0 is to make 0.0 as safe as empire. The majority of the players simply do not deserve to live. They definitely don't deserve to make tons of money farming level 4s in their ravens.
We deserve exactly what you deserve, freedom to enjoy the game the way we choose to. Or are you paying more per month than we are and thus are entitled to a bigger say? Didn't think so.
Quote:
ALL level 4 missions should be removed from high sec.
Oh yes, that's original... 
Quote:
We need to provide some encouragement for the weak and stupid to become stronger and smarter.
We don't want to change the game to be more accessible for the weak and stupid. - otherwise we end up with something like American public school system.
Well, when your 'we' pays more than the 'we' who says the game remains a sandbox in which ALL styles of play are welcome, then maybe your laughable elitist notions will be realized. Until then, cry more, gankbear, your tears sustain me. 
Originally by: Dreximus
Originally by: Alowishus
These things make the game more exciting overall for people who enjoy risk and the ability to take responsibility for their own safety. At the risk of being cliche, th |
Aardvarki
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Posted - 2009.03.06 10:48:00 -
[46]
This thread is a pile of dribble, apart from the recon dudes posts.
I cruise in and out of 0.0 all the time without hassle, and pass through empty NPC station systems with fat rats and nice agents and nice probing results.
Let the nubs stay in empire in their npc fail corps, instead of getting a bunch of T1 fitted T1 ships, learning to survive, and then make a pile of ISK.
And a lot of ppl pushing for NPC corp disentigating are just wanting the easy ganks.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.03.06 10:52:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Tippia on 06/03/2009 10:53:46
Originally by: Jmanis Catharg
Then why don't alliances let me use those systems for a fee, hmm? If they're so "worthless"? Because they don't, and you along with other alliance members echoed that "I had not much to offer the alliance".
Because either the fee will be too small to be worth the hassle of keeping you on the blue list and ensuring that you're not a security risk, or it will be so large that you'll balk at the cost (and figure, quite rightly, that you'll make more money in highsec).
Quote:
To be frank, that's pretty typical to most 0.0 alliances though, taking an attitude of "What can you offer the alliance" rather than "This is what the alliance can offer you".
Entirely true, which is why you ask them, and corps similar to them, to sod off if they ever approach you to join them.
Originally by: Aardvarki
Let the nubs stay in empire in their npc fail corps, instead of getting a bunch of T1 fitted T1 ships, learning to survive, and then make a pile of ISK.
T1?! But, but, but… What about ze bling?!  
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
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Posted - 2009.03.06 10:53:00 -
[48]
Quote:
And a lot of ppl pushing for NPC corp disentigating are just wanting the easy ganks.
Agreed, though it saddens me to see people who've been in the starter "school" corporation for years. I can't help but think those people are missing something...
I for one would like to see a graduation from these schools, which would then move them into an NPC corp based on several factors - such as whether the pilot has focused on combat oriented play, mining and so on.
---
Originally by: 7shining7one7
a) there are no conspiracies whatsoever
b) those who believe there are are nuts
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.06 11:14:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Trathen
Originally by: Malcanis
By ratting, mining, doing invention, manufacturing, whatever, between fights. In other words, the stuff you do.
You see, there's nothing special about being "an industrial corp". PvPers fight and do the stuff you do as well. The difference is you only want to do the stuff PvPers do to make ISK. So if all you're bringing to an alliance is competition for resources, station slots and markets... well, you see why they might expect you to make a contribution to support the PvPers?
The difference there is most PvPer's enjoy PvP in of itself; they don't see a point to playing EVE online if they can't create a swathe of destruction. We know this because hardcore PvPers are very vocal about how only an idiot would gather ISK all day and the real fun is using it to enhance your ePeen. I imagine the average "true" carebear is wise to this and marks up prices, refuses to fight, and knows when PvPers call PvP "loss and work," they are full of crap.
Are you saying that people in industrial corps are playing the game in a way they don't enjoy?
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.06 11:20:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Jmanis Catharg
Quote:
Have you ever actually tried this in poor trusec?
Ratting? LOL. 1-2 double BS spawns per system. most belts have BC spawns. 1 BC and 2 frigates is not uncommon.
Mining? Oh yeah, Hebergedite baby! Jaspet!
POS: most moons won't even cover the cost of POS fuel
Then why don't alliances let me use those systems for a fee, hmm? If they're so "worthless"?
Speaking for myself I'd be more than happy to see you in Cloud Ring, mining the hell out of the ****ty belts there and selling ships on the market.
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Seth Darkness
Gallente
Friends of Honor
Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.03.06 11:23:00 -
[51]
why would you people want to change something like that?
Eve is perfect!
Forget perfect, I'm trying not to be worthless |
Jmanis Catharg
Caldari
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.03.06 11:33:00 -
[52]
Quote:
Speaking for myself I'd be more than happy to see you in Cloud Ring, mining the hell out of the ****ty belts there and selling ships on the market.
lol, your ideas of being productive are strange. Is that how your alliance gets it's ships? 
---
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.
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Onyx Asablot
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.03.06 11:46:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Amarr Wife
To solve this i suggest conscription, by that i mean after being in the corp for x months (i would say somewhere beteewn 3 - 6) you are forced to join the milita along with any player older that x months who rejoins the corp. This means that outside of their own space they are open to attack by enemy militia, also opens up the possibility of raids into enemy territory being more rewarding, im sure npc corps wernt ment for war dodging or hiding in to do lvl 4's safely and this adds at least some risk to both.
/signed
this is an excellent idea.
pros:
- carebears still have tax free missions
- discourages the crazy NPC corp situation as it is at the moment
- encourages enemy militias to raid into standard space, gameworld becomes more alive
- encourages more player corps for those that don't want to join militia.
- still relatively risk free for empire dwellers
- militias have more activity and members
cons:
- epic whines, as with any change
The NEW M.Corp Data Hub - Check it out! |
Armoured C
Gallente
Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.03.06 11:49:00 -
[54]
why should people get a free ride with the op's ideas,
there is alot of effort that goes into holding down alliance sov, i wouldnt like anyone to be allowed into the space that i own.
fueling pos, is such a pain in the ass
defending your area
and you can call me elitest or not but if a alliance owns some space shouldnt they be fit to do what they want with it? i mean they have worked for it so it up for them to decide weather or not it becomes a NBSI policy or not, they have earned that right.
we dont need some gubby alt comming on going oooh 0.0 should be more accessible and you should allow us there or give us space!
you didnt work for it so you shouldnt get any.
i dont care if you in a enemy alliance of a friendly alliance i would still say the same to everyone, if you worked for something you deserve is rewards, giving people the option to get into 0.0 free and then tell the holding alliance there that you have to move inwards because were cutting you space because these people want it for free. i dunno about you but i be p-issed
This week EvE Life: Wormhole Wars 01/Feb
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teoliit
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Posted - 2009.03.06 11:50:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Ron Bacardi
Simple solution. Once an account exists for 6 months, players are booted from noob-NPC corp to new type of NPC corp with a high tax rate and can be war dec'ed. At this point a pop-up appears on your screen every day telling you to "Make friends and join a player corp loser" with a link to the recruitment forum. No doubt these corps will be dec'ed 23/7 so it will be in your best interest to make friends soon.
Funny how EVE is supposed to be about playing it the way you want to play it, but then there are all these people who want to dictate the way other people should play
Not everyone has the time to be in a player corp
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.06 11:54:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Jmanis Catharg
Quote:
Speaking for myself I'd be more than happy to see you in Cloud Ring, mining the hell out of the ****ty belts there and selling ships on the market.
lol, your ideas of being productive are strange. Is that how your alliance gets it's ships?
Nope. So you'll have to sell at less than Jita + carrier fuel price.
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b1zz
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Posted - 2009.03.06 12:15:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Aardvarki
This thread is a pile of dribble
Hehe. So true. Some people have no idea what eve is about.
CCP have stated time and time again that they are not interested in 'forcing' players to do anything. This game is not based on communism, it's based on free-for-all capatalism, an anything-goes do-what-you-want sandbox. If CCP decide to start imposing arbitrary time-limits and rules, that push and prod my character in a direction other than where I want him to go, I really don't see the point of continuing to play.
The answer to low population in 0.0 is very simple: make it more fun out there.
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Tobin Arkon
Minmatar
Tribal Core
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Posted - 2009.03.06 12:36:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Tobin Arkon on 06/03/2009 12:37:40
Originally by: b1zz
The answer to low population in 0.0 is very simple: make it more fun out there.
Exactly! And it's unfortunate that the Nullsec alliances that I have observed to date don't do that.
Edit: Don't do that, in my opinion that is
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b1zz
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Posted - 2009.03.06 13:07:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Tobin Arkon
Edited by: Tobin Arkon on 06/03/2009 12:37:40
Originally by: b1zz
The answer to low population in 0.0 is very simple: make it more fun out there.
Exactly! And it's unfortunate that the Nullsec alliances that I have observed to date don't do that.
It's not up to he nullsec alliances to do anything. If it was then they would be being forced to do something they don't want to do.
It's CCPs problem. Make it more fun, make it more interesting, make it a place you want to go as the final evolution of your character. This does NOT mean make it more safe, nor does it mean make it more lucrative.
How about better, more involved missions out there, that involve player corps even. How about allowing player corps to create missions, but only in 0.0? What about making space itself more interesting in 0.0 than in high sec, with the addition of system anomolies, maybe weird space faring organisms, whatever. Come up with some cool ideas and apply them to 0.0 only. Give it some pizzazz, it's rep is in the dulldrums atm.
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Jesum
Amarr
Black Rainbow Knights
Unity Thru Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.03.06 13:49:00 -
[60]
As an alliance pvper, I approve of this message.
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[-..-] Jesum♥ |
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