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CCP, on the discussion about downloading and torrents

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Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2009.03.11 13:52:00 - [1] CCP, this is a small suggestion after yesterdays deployment and analysis of the methods used (note this is my personal analysis from my side of my network). tl;dr readers scroll down. Many players did experience a slow download of the patch/client using different methods; the patcher, manual download, download managers and torrents. I know the main reason you wish to use your CDN for deployment is based upon one KEY thing: security. And I fully agree with you that anyone updating need to be 100% sure that what they do download is not containing any form of viruses or malware. Torrent includes that in its hash-checks, so the security is there - if you do make the initial torrent. What we then are presented with is a somewhat good somewhat bad and times horrible experience when downloading these gigantic expansions. The smallest pack to download is 1.3GB, that is a HUGE volume for some people. Especially on slower uplinks who even then does not run at max speed. Some of us, assisted by torrenting the files and made use of various trackers around the net for said distribution. I am pretty confident that I do not have to preach to you about the awesomeness of the efficiency of the BitTorrent protocol, what baffles me is the lack of usage it - since you are already using it partially in your own "custom" BT client. That custom BT client of your, you say it uses the http protocol as well if there are no seeders or peers to locate, most regular torrent clients do this as well, so you could just as easily put in your CDN links into the torrent as well, making us all download both from your CDN and at the same time everyone else. And tbh setting up a tracker isn't that hard nor time consuming. tl;dr I would like CCP to consider the making of your own torrents on releases like yesterday, it would surely cause a whole lot better experience for most - ofc torrent would be an option to regular client/manual patching. And finally, here's a small torrent example (one of your trailers) where there isn't even a tracker added, but still it downloads off your CDN - just imagine how easy one or more trackers are added into this torrent, and instantly you have hundreds, if not thousands of extra peers to download from, and most likely a whole better download experience and less whining threads(?). And here's the example of a normal torrent using CCP's CDN over HTTP for download - Linkage Finally, finally Many thanks to all of you for a simply amazing game, work, time and effort put in to development and deployment of Apomyself (yes I too have trouble spelling it haha) - it is amazing! Thank you. /c Secure 3rd party service

DeTox MinRohim Madhatters Inc. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.03.11 13:53:00 - [2] Edited by: DeTox MinRohim on 11/03/2009 13:59:43 Chribba for President! First in a Chribba thread Etc... As the patching itself, I'm accustomed to the Nullsoft proggy. Still think that a few options could have saved a lot of trouble. I don't have much to complain, it worked flawlesly for me. But... A checkbox asking if the RTP file should be deleted (Useful for multiple patching since we do not necessarily have one clients for multiple accounts). Where to save the RTP files (Some don't have a very big C:\ system from what I saw). But saving a file in the All Users folder, that is not good. Multiple client patching. Would be a bonus tbh. Other than that, what Chribba said. when the patch goes beyond a definite size, other means like a torrent could be the way to go. ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink - Online Skillsheet
Vicko II	Posted - 2009.03.11 13:54:00 - [3] yay Chribba
cpt Mark	Posted - 2009.03.11 13:56:00 - [4] yes i have just finished the download recently... now have trouble logging into Jita.... wtf...
Par'Gellen Gallente Tres Hombres Psychiatric Hospital	Posted - 2009.03.11 14:00:00 - [5] Originally by: DeTox MinRohim Chribba for President! I am Par'Gellen and I approve this idea! --- To err is human. But it shouldn't be the company motto...
Danivon	Posted - 2009.03.11 14:11:00 - [6] At the very least a MD5 hash of the executable should be provided on the webpage so that people like Chribba (who seeded yesterday) don't get all this "how do I know it's legit" nonsense. That isn't hard to do CCP.
Tomash Kovahlsky Polish Space Shipyard	Posted - 2009.03.11 14:11:00 - [7] Edited by: Tomash Kovahlsky on 11/03/2009 14:12:38 Other to what Chribba said, having the Nullsoft downloader splash a "Retry/Cancel" window and halting the download when there are "Temporary problems" makes the process even more frustrating. When I saw yesterday the patch size, I clicked on download, and thought I can go and entertain my little son for an hour or so (I'm on a 4Mb link) - and when I came back to the computer I only found that I need to click the Retry button to resume the download (which was at that time only 10% complete). I had 3 more windows splashed over the whole download process. I think that not all of us are 12-year old progress bar watchers, and little things like that should be thought trough, before being deployed.
Michelle Vega	Posted - 2009.03.11 14:16:00 - [8] At first I had problems downloading the patch but then I got it to work nicely on my 10mbit connection (800kbs) download. I had to remove my wireless from in between my cable modem and connect the computer directly to the cable modem. In addition, since I have Eve running on 5 different systems, I uninstalled Eve from my main computer and downloaded the entire version and put it on a usb memory stick so I could distribute it to the other computers without additional downloads. Now I conenct through my wireless router again and all is fine. Maybe this info could help some people with slower wireless connections (or at greater distances from their wireless router). MV

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2009.03.11 14:19:00 - [9] Originally by: Danivon At the very least a MD5 hash of the executable should be provided on the webpage so that people like Chribba (who seeded yesterday) don't get all this "how do I know it's legit" nonsense. That isn't hard to do CCP. Yes of course this should also be posted by CCP, and afaik they have previously iirc. Of course that won't help people who do not know how to verify it themselves, but it would still assist anyone who do get it from other sources. I should have included it in my OP but it spun out of my head at the time of writing, thanks Secure 3rd party service

Gunnanmon Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2009.03.11 14:38:00 - [10] Can you paraphrase the tl;dr version, please?
Jana Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.03.11 14:42:00 - [11] Originally by: Par'Gellen Originally by: DeTox MinRohim Chribba for President! I am Par'Gellen and I approve this idea! I approve of this approval! New Eden Research, where your research gets done!
Damien Arcuri Empire Black Market	Posted - 2009.03.11 15:32:00 - [12] /signed. Please offer REAL .torrent downloads like Chribba suggests. Plenty of other software makers do this, and they have just as much or more reason to worry about download integrity. Danivon, .torrent files include SHA1 hashes of each piece, so there's no need to verify hashes on the website. If someone can compromise CCP's download page, then they can compromise the hash that's displayed on that page. If "security" is the only reason for the current obfuscated, (proprietary?) BS mechanism for patches, then CCP simply fails, because the client patch page isn't SSL, and can be DNS-hijacked at will. Also, the CDN download link is not SSL, so even if CCP's site weren't hijacked, the CDN url could be.
Marcus Tedric Gallente Tedric Enterprises The Star League	Posted - 2009.03.11 17:45:00 - [13] It has Chribba at the top and wise words û so this is hopefully the place for some mature comment; which I feel is worth adding as dear Chribba is much more tech-savvy than me! I write as one of the older players IÆm sure, but otherwise completely comfortable with PCs having been using for 22yrs, following early learning from Æ82 marking cards with 2B pencils and making punched tape in order to print my very first ôHello Worldöàà I read a lot of the comments yesterday and yet more today and approached the patching yesterday with more than the usual degree of trepidation, but I have grown accustomed to much in the last 3.5+ yrs. However, it was certainly much more difficult than previously. ~1.4gig was certainly a lot and, whilst I live in a modern Western country some 30miles or so as the crow flies from the CCP servers, I can only enjoy ADSL on a 512kb/s link as I live too far from the local exchange (about 2 miles I believe). This means a ~60kbytes/s download and thus a ~7hr download session whilst praying that the phone doesnÆt interfere and that there are no random electricity spikes getting through. I can only be jealous of those with large fibre connections and downloads in minutes, although I do wish they wouldnÆt crow about it û itÆs not cool. However, the speed we can download at is nothing to do with CCP, so they are not blamed at all for that û but I do hope they take note that we are faced with that. What I found particularly annoying was that the manual patch (the system I have used for nearly all those years) wasnÆt where it was supposed to be and it was only by the posts of helpful players that I was able to get them û and even the last 12Mb one was not what I was expecting û but an auto-patcher û horrible! Now, I did notice that my view of the Download section from work was very different to that from home û so can anyone tell me how to make the damn web-page update and not be cached (after clearing all Internet settings and temp files and pressing ærefreshÆ)? Another ænot CCP faultÆ though. Something I think is terribly wrong, however, is anyone having to download that massive file any more than once û for all sorts of well documented reasons. For this reason I have a serious plea: - I would like a simple link in the Download area to both Patches and the Full Client that downloads a fully working single .exe file that (however big) just works. That I can both use to patch additional clients on the same, or different machines, and keep for backup/archiving. Yes, I would like you to check it for viruses/Trojans before you post it, but that I am aware that I must do that too. If you wish to make my life easier, then please do have it as a download and installation manager program, but it must save the file to a place I designate and not even remotely think about tidying itself up afterwards û thatÆs my job! - In addition there needs to be a method of getting the Full Client on a DVD û itÆs just too large not to have this in our back pockets. The most useful recent Xmas pressie I have had was the E-ON edition following the 2007 FanFest (that I attended) with a Full Client version on DVD with the FanFest film archive (even if you did edit out my pointed two queries to your tame Economist!). - Finally û I predict a backlash from your Atari-backed return to a packaged version. If I bought EVE now on Friday for the first time and came back to install it and was faced with a 7hr download to supposedly get it working and then an additional patch that had to be manually applied as the auto-patch system wasnÆt present in the 83413 (?) version û then IÆd be demanding a refund from the shop. There is no way you should be marketing anything other than a fully working client û and I would have waited 2-3 more weeks. IRL I am indeed a professional programme and project manager specialising in requirements and customer expectation management û you got this one wrong
Business Ethics	Posted - 2009.03.11 18:37:00 - [14] The automatic patch function used Windows BITS rather than BT. Can someone explain to me where this "custom bittorrent client" stuff is coming from?

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2009.03.11 19:17:00 - [15] Originally by: Marcus Tedric Finally û I predict a backlash from your Atari-backed return to a packaged version. If I bought EVE now on Friday for the first time and came back to install it and was faced with a 7hr download to supposedly get it working and then an additional patch that had to be manually applied as the auto-patch system wasnÆt present in the 83413 (?) version û then IÆd be demanding a refund from the shop. There is no way you should be marketing anything other than a fully working client û and I would have waited 2-3 more weeks. The rumor in the galaxy is that the DVD indeed is the latesst QR version... Originally by: Business Ethics Can someone explain to me where this "custom bittorrent client" stuff is coming from? If you go to the download page of the client now, you can see another link under the main buttons, "download using bittorrent". This is a custom made BT client, that works just like BT but uses some CCP stuff instead + the webserver (webseeds) as a backup (just like we can in any semi-modern BT client). But the problem is that not too many use that option as it is not a regular torrent like you would download with your own BT client, but some special CCP-only client. That's why CCP could just as easily just make a normal .torrent meta file with some random (or inhouse) trackers (+webseeds) and people would gladly jump on that (I think). Secure 3rd party service

Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.03.11 19:21:00 - [16] Originally by: Jana Clant Originally by: Par'Gellen Originally by: DeTox MinRohim Chribba for President! I am Par'Gellen and I approve this idea! I approve of this approval! I approve of said approval of the aforementioned approval. ______________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Dante024781 Mercenary Evolution	Posted - 2009.03.11 19:22:00 - [17] As I said yesterday. Torrents are to downloading, what EVE is to video games. More complex but so much better.
Korerin Mayul	Posted - 2009.03.11 20:07:00 - [18] Edited by: Korerin Mayul on 11/03/2009 20:07:41 an option not to report non fatil errors (auto retry on temporary errors) would have led to me getting a better nights sleep last night; Then again that client isnt CCP's code, its a buy in; as such the business decision was probably sound but the delivered product failed to totally meet expectations. Happenes every time somthing gets outsourced >.< ps. i too would like to vote Chribba for Space-President
Nephilims Eyes Crystalline INC Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2009.03.11 20:44:00 - [19] yea, a torrent would be useful considering my download failed after 24 hours of downloading [with only 60% mind you] and now I start from scratch.... super cool feeling let me tell you. --------------------------- In Progress
KayO Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.03.11 21:14:00 - [20] Yea a dececent torrent would be good, im still trying to find a classic -> current version, i found premium -> current version np, but cant find the classic :( first dl stoped at about 82% after 7 hours and now im trying again dl at 87k/s.. deep joy
Doctor Penguin Amarr Shadow Command Tenth Legion	Posted - 2009.03.11 21:24:00 - [21] Edited by: Doctor Penguin on 11/03/2009 21:24:17 Do you know what I'd like? I'd like CCP's files to be just like every single other file on the internet, that don't have this continuous and entirely unsolvable "file is corrupt" error that causes perfectly rational people like myself to scream at our computers. Not that this will happen. ________________________________________________
Klee Tarris Amarr Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.03.11 21:40:00 - [22] Have to agree here. A decent torrent would have got a lot more people back in the game by now, including me ! 1st off, WTF is this DNA pile of crap ? "DNA Contains no spyware or adware and will not slow down your Internet connection". Erm, well, it crucified my connection and I have a QOS router. After 5 hours of downloading at an average of 60 k/s I was still only about 50% done, and couldn't do without my Internet anymore so cancelled it THINKING it would resume where I left it... oh dear, what a childish and naive notion that was... Oh no, it has wiped the WHOLE ****ING THING !!!!
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2009.03.11 21:50:00 - [23] Edited by: Khlitouris RegusII on 11/03/2009 21:51:38 signed and use a real .torrent file not that virus dna riddled crap a quick google will confirm that it is a virus with virus behaviour. it also stays installed and running after the program that installs it is deleted so the dna is not a virus argument doesn't work sorry ccp.
ZenZorZar	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:30:00 - [24] Originally by: Chribba I know the main reason you wish to use your CDN for deployment is based upon one KEY thing: security. // cut // tl;dr I would like CCP to consider the making of your own torrents on releases like yesterday, it would surely cause a whole lot better experience for most - ofc torrent would be an option to regular client/manual patching. /c very nice post =) even if they dont want .torrents for whatever reason, they could still publish hashes for their .exe files. nearly no work, and it would be some extra security, and very welcome.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:55:00 - [25] My experience of the autopatcher was that out of four attempts it downloaded a corrupt file twice. Chribba has implied that there are multiple checksums in the download. If that's the case why was I twice (once with the last Sisi patch, and once with the Tranq patch) able to download 1.3GB only to have it complain of corruption right at the end? There was no intermediate 'Retry/abort' dialog. Just a progress bar that walked from left to right over the course of an hour then a message telling me to try again. Thankfully my ISP doesn't have usage limits but it was damn' irritating. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:56:00 - [26] Originally by: Doctor Penguin Edited by: Doctor Penguin on 11/03/2009 21:24:17 Do you know what I'd like? I'd like CCP's files to be just like every single other file on the internet, that don't have this continuous and entirely unsolvable "file is corrupt" error that causes perfectly rational people like myself to scream at our computers. Not that this will happen. ^this^ With knobs on. Golden knobs, with a dedicated degree qualified polishing staff. The last time I had to worry about corrupt downloads was in the last century when I was using an analogue modem. FFS, CCP! -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:01:00 - [27] Originally by: Business Ethics The automatic patch function used Windows BITS rather than BT. Can someone explain to me where this "custom bittorrent client" stuff is coming from? for the full client DLs, you can choose to do it via torrent, but it's just one single minded, stand-alone "client" for that one torrent - that installs btdna (basically spyware) - putting the gist back into logistics
Tomash Kovahlsky Polish Space Shipyard	Posted - 2009.03.12 19:47:00 - [28] Edited by: Tomash Kovahlsky on 12/03/2009 19:49:45 Well - as a conclusion to all the posts from the community on the installer/download issue, let's just hope that the bright minded geniuos, who came up with this magnifficent idea of the new patcher, will be brought back to sences by someone with a clear mind within CCP (I hope there is such a person there ), and in the future we will be presented with the option to download the full .EXE file required, using methods that WE choose (is it by torrents, rapidshare, download managers or any other method). After all - it's us who pay for this game - and WE should be the satisfied ones.

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