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Wormholes will fail, and this is why

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:10:00 - [91] Originally by: Megan Maynard My problem, and I really like the new rats and wish all the rats were that fun to shoot, is the utter devoidness of stuff in these systems. There are Ladar and Gravametric sites but zero belts, no moon mining, and zero ability to slap a station down if someone wanted to. Whats the appeal when I can find all of the before mentioned in 0.0? The risks are there, the stuff is there, and the pew pew is there. (Even though the rats are smarter then most pilots lmao.) Delayed local Unpredictable exit points Unpredictable player population due to unpredictable entry points No gatecamps No hotdrops No titans No docking games No comparison...
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:11:00 - [92] I think Akita and others are arguing differing sides of the same coin. CCP controls supply by how easy confrontations are and the number of which items drop. Demand is a relationship between perceived ability by players of said product and what it does (what its coded to do by CCP). The cost of an item will be a relation between the volume of supply vs the demand of the market. Since T3 cruisers on paper far exceed the abilities of T2 ships, you can expect that T3 ships will have huge demand. The expansion has been out less than a week. There is absolutely no way anyone can determine what these ships will sell at once the dust clears because the majority of the player base is learning to get to grips with how WH space works, the new scanning system, reverse engineering and the entire T3 production track. It will take months for the market to settle. The absolute worst thing CCP could do would be to make T3 too easy to obtain and devalue it from day 1 or respond to a few ranting posters on these forums by increasing drops within a few days of a new expansion launch. If its hard to get, they are doing absolutely the right thing and only after analysing comprehensive data over the course of several months should they begin to make the most minor of changes, lest mistakes of the past come back to haunt them.
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:11:00 - [93] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Akita, you are very wrong. My allaince have double the prices of some items, and kept it high for months. Its pretty easy if you know how to manipulate markets :). You're right. Akita would be right if Eve was a perfect market. But who cares when Eve is dying??? Akita lives in a little grey world where the sun never shines, in a little grey house with a lot of little grey people around. Akita is very depressed and the only joy in his/her sorry life is trolling the Eve-O forum where he/she finds satisfaction in making others appear dumb, thus appearing very clever in contrast. Every forum needs Akitas due to universal rules that would take more space than the 3130 remaining characters of this post, let's be grateful we have such a brillant one Originally by: Rells First of all, I wouldn't give you the sweat off my balls.
Verloc Nostromo Black Mesa	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:13:00 - [94] The loot from rats is befinately not where all the isk is. Plus unless you were getting 4-5+ BS spawns in the worm hole space, you were in the easy areas.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:20:00 - [95] Originally by: H Lecter You're right. Akita would be right if Eve was a perfect market. It's as close to a perfect market as you can realistically get without making it utterly boring and unprofitable to be a trader/hauler/manufacturer/inventor/whatever. It's FAR closer to a perfect market than the real world anyway. If it would be a perfect market, we would have prices "snapping" in place each time CCP makes a change, and staying there without moving even 0.01 ISK as long as CCP doesn't change anything else. Thanks to it being an imperfect market (but close enough to being perfect), we have some "wiggle room" for prices, and opportunities for manipulation. But that doesn't change the fact the "main trend line" in all prices IS eventually a direct and unavoidable consequence of CCP's designs and chosen values. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:25:00 - [96] Not all of us play spaceships for the risk/reward math. Some of us play for the space part. When you go back to grinding missions in empire, I'll still be out in deep wormhole space or deep 0.0 not caring about how your risk/reward calculations turn out. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:39:00 - [97] People said that rigs were doomed to failure and would never be mass distributed. Yeah, they were totally right and i certainly don't rig every ship I fly at all. ______________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Traidor Disloyal Minmatar Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:42:00 - [98] I was told by a guy who had done exploration out in 0.0 that the Wormhole Space is a wet dream come true for Exploration types. He was in Wormhole space at the time and he was telling me how many exploration sites he was seeing on scan. He was also telling me that there were a **load of ships in that wormhole space. So I don't think that wormhole space is going to die any time soon. *********************************************** I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Uzume Ame	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:44:00 - [99] T3 ships are fail as they stand now (no one knows what happens in CCP mind when they ask players about feedback and test and the day before release make the ships crappoholic again), hence it will fail. Take in mind that the production of T3 is probably the hardest thing in this game to do right now: - some of the stuff needed may be only found on the hard plexes, yeah the ones which eat caps for breakfast and full fleets (the dyspro/decoders of t3). - an annoying industrial process like invention, with all the pos reactions, and production slots! (you can't do these at stations). - it takes actually time to gather resources and do it all, with teamwork, no more funny moon mining arrays which you ahve to fly with your fancy jfreighter once a month to collect stuff, go to jita and sell. CCP stated they intend that T3 would have to eb around T2 prices, it's fun they didn't do the maths or udnerestimate how much people values their free time. TL;DR: when the novelty passes it will fail (FW again), and the industry (booster manufacturing again) and usagge of the ships will be limited to few bored hardcore players (blackops/faction bs/deadspace fits etc.) with too mcuh isks too much is never enought). WH will be relegated to the odd 'roaming' gang and gankers (lowsec). So the OP is right, CCP has combined all their 'awesome' (fail) stuff in this idea, LOL, because of screwing AGAIN with the risk+involvement = reward equation.
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:46:00 - [100] Originally by: Akita T If it would be a perfect market, we would have prices "snapping" in place each time CCP makes a change, and staying there without moving even 0.01 ISK as long as CCP doesn't change anything else. Thanks to it being an imperfect market (but close enough to being perfect), we have some "wiggle room" for prices, and opportunities for manipulation. But that doesn't change the fact the "main trend line" in all prices IS eventually a direct and unavoidable consequence of CCP's designs and chosen values. Eve is nowhere close to a perfect market. A big part of the player community does not know how item prices look outside of Jita and their home region. A further characteristic of the 'perfect market' is the absence of monopolies and oligopolies. Looking at Dysporium this is clearly not the case. Surely Eve is closer to being a perfect market than the real world due to a natural lack of complexity, but still it comes as close to the real world market behaviour as possible in a computer game. I am sure there will be many T3 cruisers sold to customers whose cluelessness equals their wealth at huge profit margins, making those excursions into W-space not only fun but even good business. My point is basically that people start complaining too early. We will understand T3 in all its aspects much better in let's say 6 months - then there is still enough time for complaints. Originally by: Rells First of all, I wouldn't give you the sweat off my balls.

Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:48:00 - [101] This will never cease to amuse me: Quote: They forgot to give a proper reward for faction warfare and did not learn from their mistakes. The reward for faction warfare was built into it's title: Faction Warfare. Your reward was the right to kill people! The reward for sleepers is that it's a challenge... and a few friends of mine have reported well in excess of 200m/hour when you find the right wormhole. --- Originally by: 7shining7one7 a) there are no conspiracies whatsoever b) those who believe there are are nuts
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:50:00 - [102] Originally by: Uzume Ame T3 ships are fail as they stand now (no one knows what happens in CCP mind when they ask players about feedback and test and the day before release make the ships crappoholic again), hence it will fail. Take in mind that the production of T3 is probably the hardest thing in this game to do right now: - some of the stuff needed may be only found on the hard plexes, yeah the ones which eat caps for breakfast and full fleets (the dyspro/decoders of t3). - an annoying industrial process like invention, with all the pos reactions, and production slots! (you can't do these at stations). - it takes actually time to gather resources and do it all, with teamwork, no more funny moon mining arrays which you ahve to fly with your fancy jfreighter once a month to collect stuff, go to jita and sell. CCP stated they intend that T3 would have to eb around T2 prices, it's fun they didn't do the maths or udnerestimate how much people values their free time. TL;DR: when the novelty passes it will fail (FW again), and the industry (booster manufacturing again) and usagge of the ships will be limited to few bored hardcore players (blackops/faction bs/deadspace fits etc.) with too mcuh isks too much is never enought). WH will be relegated to the odd 'roaming' gang and gankers (lowsec). So the OP is right, CCP has combined all their 'awesome' (fail) stuff in this idea, LOL, because of screwing AGAIN with the risk+involvement = reward equation. Please quit and give me your stuff. It's better for all of us. Originally by: Rells First of all, I wouldn't give you the sweat off my balls.
Oburn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy SCUM.	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:55:00 - [103] I miss the days when the "reward" was just playing eve. Now "Blablablabla not as profitable as missions, instant fail bla bla bla bla." ----------------------------------------------------- If you melt dry ice can you swim in it and not get wet?
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:56:00 - [104] It's me, I'm the guy willing to pay 1 billion for a Legion+components. At a certain point the ships are Veblen goods anyway. ----------- Originally by: CCP Whisper Deal with it.
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:02:00 - [105] Originally by: Gamer4liff It's me, I'm the guy willing to pay 1 billion for a Legion+components. At a certain point the ships are Veblen goods anyway. You're reading the forum, so you are not half as clueless as the people I referred to in my earlier post. And the value of a ship is not only determined by its components, it's determined by your desire to fly it. It's like a Ferrari. Basically you buy a slightly less crappy car than a Fiat with lots of Fiat technology and even Fiat components at a highly exaggerated price. But for some it's pure automotive sexyness. Originally by: Rells First of all, I wouldn't give you the sweat off my balls.
Clurk Brodon Yog-Sothoth Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:05:00 - [106] Originally by: Blane Xero People said that rigs were doomed to failure and would never be mass distributed. Most rigs are failures, not distributed at all. When was the last time you bought Algid Energy Administration Units, Dynamic Fuel Valves, Drone Durability Enhancers or Signal Focusing Kits? Most rigs could be removed from the game, no one would notice.
Uzume Ame	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:07:00 - [107] Originally by: H Lecter Please quit and give me your stuff. It's better for all of us. Never, don't assume what I'm saying is what applies to me, is what the general mindset is. Let me explain why: time is valuable commodity. In this game there are no levels like in wow, but most people have to grind for isk, so (lucky/smart) ones earn isk (a lot of them) doing stuff they like/have fun with: trading (boring, but some/a lot like it eh!), scamming, alliance bussiness, industry (even this can get boring afterawhile, but let's assume most people enjoys it), piracy/looting, whatever. The majority though, earn isk by mechanical (aka grinding) gaming: mining, mission running/pve in general, etc. So while it may be fun, for now, to farm sleepers or harvest these gasses, hacking these sites etc. with all the risks involved (pvp, hard npcs, more intese gameplay in general), after the novelty is gone, it will turn to be a mechanical thing. Now, the grinding as I said is done to earn isk for whatever you consider fun, this is usually (but not only) reduced to two options: pvp or carebearish stuff (colect better items/equipment or whatever). For an industry to be worth it, it has to reach a critical mass, if it doesn't, the product will stay high in price, and if the product is not valuable enought for that price (t3 ships) it will fail or stay as an oddity. You have funny T2 ships relativelly cheap (not for the casual gamer) because there is no real effort in gathering the resources for them, even if it's 'hard' to do invention, that keeps prices 'reasonably' low for them to be usable. This won't happen with T3; now ask youserf why would you pay 500 mill for a ship that does stuff worse than a T2 ship being 2/3x times the price, why would you waste all the hard earned isks ytou grinded in such thing? No oen in their right midn would do, unless you have a load of isks. TL;DR: before posting memes, think about it please.
Uzume Ame	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:09:00 - [108] Originally by: H Lecter Originally by: Gamer4liff It's me, I'm the guy willing to pay 1 billion for a Legion+components. At a certain point the ships are Veblen goods anyway. You're reading the forum, so you are not half as clueless as the people I referred to in my earlier post. And the value of a ship is not only determined by its components, it's determined by your desire to fly it. It's like a Ferrari. Basically you buy a slightly less crappy car than a Fiat with lots of Fiat technology and even Fiat components at a highly exaggerated price. But for some it's pure automotive sexyness. Yes that's why do you see so many ferraris on the street, you're terrible. And T3 was not supposed to be that, but "affordable" and common like T2 is. CPP WORDS
Poz McAIDS	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:21:00 - [109] Originally by: Gamer4liff It's me, I'm the guy willing to pay 1 billion for a Legion+components. At a certain point the ships are Veblen goods anyway. lol most of us would pay that much.. now try guessing what a legion chassis alone with no modules is going to be in a few weeks once the first one appears. many many billions.. the price clearly will settle, but I think it will take quite a long time.
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:23:00 - [110] Originally by: Uzume Ame Originally by: H Lecter Please quit and give me your stuff. It's better for all of us. Never, don't assume what I'm saying is what applies to me, is what the general mindset is. Sorry I did not recognize you as the voice of the public opinion. When you come here and complain that the update is a complete failure and you do not like a single bit of it, I have to suppose that you will not play for long anymore. Obviously you have not recognized yourself that you don't get any joy playing Eve, so I honestly deserve your stuff for making you aware. There is no hurry. Take your time, I'll be still around in 3 months to accept the contract. Peace! Originally by: Rells First of all, I wouldn't give you the sweat off my balls.

Communis	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:29:00 - [111] Having spent all my time as a solo 2box explorer I have to say this patch sucks. Here's why. The overpowered NPC's aside, it's the inability to determine what I might be facing in any given situation that is frustrating. Who care's that I have a covert ops ship with a covert ops cloak if every sleeper site I warp to decloaks me and then I die almost instantly. At least in player gate camps my cloak will give me a chance to escape. With no way to determine the level of threat I will be facing, the fun of the game goes away quickly, as do my ships and isk. Thank you CCP for bringing that largest expansion ever that only the largest blobs can take advantage of. So...both my accounts are now stuck in w-space as my explorer is sitting in his pod. If this is what you have to offer as enjoyable game play I'll find something else......quit.
Uzume Ame	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:31:00 - [112] Originally by: H Lecter Originally by: Uzume Ame Originally by: H Lecter Please quit and give me your stuff. It's better for all of us. Never, don't assume what I'm saying is what applies to me, is what the general mindset is. Sorry I did not recognize you as the voice of the public opinion. When you come here and complain that the update is a complete failure and you do not like a single bit of it, I have to suppose that you will not play for long anymore. Obviously you have not recognized yourself that you don't get any joy playing Eve, so I honestly deserve your stuff for making you aware. There is no hurry. Take your time, I'll be still around in 3 months to accept the contract. Peace! Confirmed you're terrible... let me explain to you with simpel words: I don't think the update is terrible, I think the idea behind wormholes is excellent, that does not mean T3 ships will be triumphant and wormhole space will be full of business (that's the point of the OP). Learn some logic, and what do logic fallacies mean. Obviouslly I shouldn't ever bother to discuss this with anyone, as the evidence is allready in the game: one may consider lowsec is so much better than hisec in every aspect, but it does not make it a popular feature (more like a desert, which after YEARS they have buffed now lol, don't thing it will have a lot of effect anyway). May I repeat that CCP intends T3 to be a popular feature like T2 again? If they fail to make it popular then wormholes will fail and will be an other desert. Anyway my whole point is: stop prenerfing stuff ffs and buff T3
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:31:00 - [113] Originally by: H Lecter I am sure there will be many T3 cruisers sold to customers whose cluelessness equals their wealth at huge profit margins, making those excursions into W-space not only fun but even good business. Except that there were devs statement to the extent of (paraphrasing here) "strategic cruiser INTENDED price levels are close to those of T2 cruisers". _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:32:00 - [114] Originally by: Uzume Ame Yes that's why do you see so many ferraris on the street, you're terrible. And T3 was not supposed to be that, but "affordable" and common like T2 is. CPP WORDS Ferraris were just an example. Surprisingly many people drive cars that only satisfy their mobility level marginally better than your average car but cost many times as much. Manufacturers of luxury cars are usually far less affected by an economic crisis than those producing cars for the masses. Apart from that I am sure that there will be T3 ships at comparable prices to T2. But it will take time until the whole W-space exploration and its mechanics have been figured out and someone finds a very efficient way to obtain everything required for T3 construction. Until then the pioneers have a chance to earn huge profit margins - while even having tons of fun. BTW - 'FUN' is your reward for playing a game. ISK is a phantasy currency (besides the Icelandic Koruna) that will not buy you anything but pixels. Pixels are not fun, it's what you do with them. Originally by: Rells First of all, I wouldn't give you the sweat off my balls.
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:34:00 - [115] Quote: now ask youserf why would you pay 500 mill for a ship that does stuff worse than a T2 ship being 2/3x times the price, why would you waste all the hard earned isks ytou grinded in such thing? No oen in their right midn would do, unless you have a load of isks. Have you even looked at the stats of T3 ships? - they outshine T2 by a long way.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:35:00 - [116] Originally by: Poz McAIDS Originally by: Gamer4liff It's me, I'm the guy willing to pay 1 billion for a Legion+components. At a certain point the ships are Veblen goods anyway. lol most of us would pay that much.. now try guessing what a legion chassis alone with no modules is going to be in a few weeks once the first one appears. many many billions.. the price clearly will settle, but I think it will take quite a long time. Yeah I hear you, it's such a complex system that it will take quite some time to settle. Fortunately it's not limited in the same way T2 manufacturing is so I really think the cost has the potential to get quite manageable. ----------- Originally by: CCP Whisper Deal with it.
Uzume Ame	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:41:00 - [117] Originally by: H Lecter BTW - 'FUN' is your reward for playing a game. ISK is a phantasy currency (besides the Icelandic Koruna) that will not buy you anything but pixels. Pixels are not fun, it's what you do with them. I agree with this indeed, but in this game you need isk to have fun, and to earn isk means time. My point is that sometimes earning the isk is fun itself, but other times isk are a mean to have the fun, and earning them takes 'boring' time. You just need to read this forum or talk with people in game to realzie about this. That may not be your case, but is the case of the majority. See I'm trying to aproach the game from a gamedesign point of view, not a player point of view. Wormholes to a point make the 'earning isk' = 'fun' more equal (challeging npcs, esporadic pvp, i.e.) but the question is: will this be forever that way? My opinion is: no, it won't, once the novelty is gone it will AGAIN turn into a grinding mechanic (like pelxing can be), and when it does people will start to think about it more in terms of 'risk versus reward' instead of in 'how much fun is it'. It will turn out to be a pvp playground with no local (which is not bad at all, but the T3 industry and hence ship popularity side of it, which is the whole point of wormholes, will not be as popular).
Uzume Ame	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:42:00 - [118] Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth Quote: now ask youserf why would you pay 500 mill for a ship that does stuff worse than a T2 ship being 2/3x times the price, why would you waste all the hard earned isks ytou grinded in such thing? No oen in their right midn would do, unless you have a load of isks. Have you even looked at the stats of T3 ships? - they outshine T2 by a long way. Have you tried T3 ships at sisi at all?
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:45:00 - [119] Originally by: Uzume Ame Confirmed you're terrible... let me explain to you with simpel words: I don't think the update is terrible, I think the idea behind wormholes is excellent, that does not mean T3 ships will be triumphant and wormhole space will be full of business (that's the point of the OP). Learn some logic, and what do logic fallacies mean. Obviouslly I shouldn't ever bother to discuss this with anyone, as the evidence is allready in the game: one may consider lowsec is so much better than hisec in every aspect, but it does not make it a popular feature (more like a desert, which after YEARS they have buffed now lol, don't thing it will have a lot of effect anyway). May I repeat that CCP intends T3 to be a popular feature like T2 again? If they fail to make it popular then wormholes will fail and will be an other desert. Anyway my whole point is: stop prenerfing stuff ffs and buff T3 Highlighted your problem. Things don't need to be very popular to be good. Sometimes the most popular things are the worst (see hisec and boybands). Also Eve is not as popular as WoW . Originally by: Rells First of all, I wouldn't give you the sweat off my balls.
Uzume Ame	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:48:00 - [120] Yeah that's right, but CCP said T3 ships are mean to be popular (and for them to be, given the effort it takes to build the stuff and manhours, they better make people go there to farm sleepers, harvest gases, and do stuff) so somethign is failling on the equation. Anyway let's wait and see, it's true what somepeople has said is to early to know, and is probably they will tune a lot of stuff before T3 goes in full production.



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