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Wormholes will fail, and this is why

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
Hobgoblin ll	Posted - 2009.03.12 05:25:00 - [1] We did some sleepers today, 4 people: 2 in bs, 2 in smaller ships for scanning looting and salvaging. Killed the spawns with frigates, cruisers and 2 battleships many times. Then we saw what the loot was worth. It's bit early for a final judgement, but it looks like doing sleepers is less profitable than doing level 4 missions in 0.5 security space. Why shall we do sleepers and risk our ships in 0.0 security space, when we can make more isk in 0.5 without probing and under concord protection ? When people tried this and get bored from exploring, they will stop doing sleepers, because they can make more isk with missions, mining or beltrats. No one will pay that much for the t3 cruisers to make sleepers more profitable than level 4 missions. It's going to be a huge fail. Again the developers didn't think of balance and reward and created something that won't be used by many people. They forgot to give a proper reward for faction warfare and did not learn from their mistakes. Congratulations on wasting thousands of manhours on something that is going to fail because of an unbalanced reward. I know it's only a game, but since they even have a real life economist watching their economy and market balance, i expected a little more professionalism in this field.
Super Whopper I can Has Cheeseburger	Posted - 2009.03.12 05:27:00 - [2] TL;DR I didn't get rich beyond my dreams after one Sleeper expedition so am going to an hero myself.
Lymitz	Posted - 2009.03.12 05:29:00 - [3] You deserve to have posting rights removed from you account.
Hobgoblin ll	Posted - 2009.03.12 05:30:00 - [4] Originally by: Lymitz You deserve to have posting rights removed from you account. I'm only predicting the inevitable. Anyone who has a clue on this topic will realise that i'm right. The future will show this aswell.
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2009.03.12 05:34:00 - [5] Originally by: Hobgoblin ll I'm only predicting the inevitable. Anyone who has a clue on this topic will realise that i'm full of shit. The past and present has shown this aswell. QFT -- Eventus stultorum magister.
FlameGlow Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.12 05:37:00 - [6] Originally by: Hobgoblin ll Killed the spawns with frigates, cruisers and 2 battleships many times. So, basically, you're complaining easy level w-space has crappy rewards? Who wuolda thought _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button.
Cors It's A Trap	Posted - 2009.03.12 05:38:00 - [7] I didn't see anything in your post about the Roids in the system, the gas clouds, the hacking sites, and so on. If you're looking at JUST the rats, then you'll most likely not want to go to WH space. Then again.. Were you in the EASY ones? Sounds like. Highsec belts don't give big bounties on the rats. You have to go to 0.0 for that. Same with WH's. The easy ones pay less then the hard ones. SIG: FULL WINDOWS CLIENT 1.9gig
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.12 05:39:00 - [8] Hello and welcome to "I told you so". People already calculated that even if people in W-space would work PERFECTLY with no losses whatsoever, waste no time at all, and ONLY expect at most 15 mil ISK/hour or thereabouts, while reactors and builders go without any profit at all, the price of a T3 strategic cruiser would be around half a bil ISK. Since they're CRUISERS, dammit, I kind of doubt that amount of cash would make them sell too often... so demand for Sleeper stuff won't be all that great. DO NOT expect CCP to properly set ratios and such for balance. They still can't do it for the basic minerals. How could you possibly expect them to do it for something as complex as T3 ? Seriously... _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Taius Pax	Posted - 2009.03.12 05:39:00 - [9] Originally by: Hobgoblin ll We did some sleepers today, 4 people: 2 in bs, 2 in smaller ships for scanning looting and salvaging. Killed the spawns with frigates, cruisers and 2 battleships many times. Then we saw what the loot was worth. It's bit early for a final judgement, but it looks like doing sleepers is less profitable than doing level 4 missions in 0.5 security space. Why shall we do sleepers and risk our ships in 0.0 security space, when we can make more isk in 0.5 without probing and under concord protection ? When people tried this and get bored from exploring, they will stop doing sleepers, because they can make more isk with missions, mining or beltrats. No one will pay that much for the t3 cruisers to make sleepers more profitable than level 4 missions. It's going to be a huge fail. Again the developers didn't think of balance and reward and created something that won't be used by many people. They forgot to give a proper reward for faction warfare and did not learn from their mistakes. Congratulations on wasting thousands of manhours on something that is going to fail because of an unbalanced reward. I know it's only a game, but since they even have a real life economist watching their economy and market balance, i expected a little more professionalism in this field. I did three Wormholes today, a combination of attacking sleepers (with loot and salvage), mining some nice mins, and just having a good time. Not only was it fun, but it got some parts towards T3 cruisers for my gang. Since T3 cruisers seem to be rather nice and this is the only way to get T3 cruisers, I imagine you're incorrect.
An Sar	Posted - 2009.03.12 05:44:00 - [10] Also my understanding is CCP does not set "rewards" the worth of loot and salvage is determined by market demand, so how can the OP lay it all on CCP?

Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.12 05:52:00 - [11] Originally by: An Sar Also my understanding is CCP does not set "rewards" the worth of loot and salvage is determined by market demand, so how can the OP lay it all on CCP? I feel like smacking you in the head. The market DEMAND is influenced by CCP, by setting the capabilities of the items. The market SUPPLY is influenced by CCP, by setting build amounts of materials needed and drop rates of resources. Explain to me again now how CCP DOESN'T actually set at least some rough prices, but use LOGIC next time. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Hobgoblin ll	Posted - 2009.03.12 05:59:00 - [12] Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: Hobgoblin ll Killed the spawns with frigates, cruisers and 2 battleships many times. So, basically, you're complaining easy level w-space has crappy rewards? Who wuolda thought It was not easy. That 2 battlships did as much damage as a decent level 4 mission npc spawn. You need a battleship or command ship tank for them or at least a well tanked battlecruiser. You can't compare them to other npc battleships. And don't think that you get better reward with harder spawns. You will only get more battleships. But the loot of the battleship is the same like the loot of a frigate, only 4-5 more of that.
An Sar	Posted - 2009.03.12 05:59:00 - [13] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: An Sar Also my understanding is CCP does not set "rewards" the worth of loot and salvage is determined by market demand, so how can the OP lay it all on CCP? I feel like smacking you in the head. The market DEMAND is influenced by CCP, by setting the capabilities of the items. The market SUPPLY is influenced by CCP, by setting build amounts of materials needed and drop rates of resources. Explain to me again now how CCP DOESN'T actually set at least some rough prices, but use LOGIC next time. Fair Enough, I guess my point was that the value of new loot might take time to settle. We're not just talking about asteroid and common rat spawns here, players have to go into a WH and survive long enough to bring stuff out. We wont really know how much of whatever we get is available until more time goes by. Unless CCP is infusing the market with loot not provided by players?
harogen	Posted - 2009.03.12 06:04:00 - [14] Originally by: Hobgoblin ll Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: Hobgoblin ll Killed the spawns with frigates, cruisers and 2 battleships many times. So, basically, you're complaining easy level w-space has crappy rewards? Who wuolda thought It was not easy. That 2 battlships did as much damage as a decent level 4 mission npc spawn. You need a battleship or command ship tank for them or at least a well tanked battlecruiser. You can't compare them to other npc battleships. And don't think that you get better reward with harder spawns. You will only get more battleships. But the loot of the battleship is the same like the loot of a frigate, only 4-5 more of that. There is more to wormhole space than running lvl 4 missions. For starters, it can be done by people who don't do agent missions and don't have lvl 4 agents. I know this may come as a shock to you that people actually don't run agent missions, but its true, they exist. Secondly, if you do take advantage of the gas clouds/hacking sites etc you will make a ton of isk. If all you do is shoot some easy rats, then no you won't make much. Let's put it this way, if all you want to do is shoot sleepers and profit, then you better be doing an encounter hard enough to require a logistics.
Aaron Mirrorsaver R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.12 06:07:00 - [15] wormholes will fail..point form: too much risk, too little reward fail ships retraining skills risk = sleepers, other players, getting trapped in the wormhole and having to exit in hostile space. "reward"= tech 3 components to build tech 3 ships which when balanced are said to going to cost as much as tech 2. all that risk, and for stuff prolly as worthwhile as t2 salvage if that much. the ships themself are fail, the idea of customization is great, but they're gonne die easy and nothing about them will make them live nice n long like a capital :) your gonna lose skills and have to retrain them, so they're rank 1 skills only, yeh but you ekep training rank 1 over and over and it adds up and people already ***** when they lose one hour training time if the server is down unscheduled. ------ RECON is recruiting
mechtech Entropy Industries	Posted - 2009.03.12 06:09:00 - [16] Originally by: Hobgoblin ll We did some sleepers today, 4 people: 2 in bs, 2 in smaller ships for scanning looting and salvaging. Killed the spawns with frigates, cruisers and 2 battleships many times. Then we saw what the loot was worth. It's bit early for a final judgement, but it looks like doing sleepers is less profitable than doing level 4 missions in 0.5 security space. Why shall we do sleepers and risk our ships in 0.0 security space, when we can make more isk in 0.5 without probing and under concord protection ? When people tried this and get bored from exploring, they will stop doing sleepers, because they can make more isk with missions, mining or beltrats. No one will pay that much for the t3 cruisers to make sleepers more profitable than level 4 missions. It's going to be a huge fail. Again the developers didn't think of balance and reward and created something that won't be used by many people. They forgot to give a proper reward for faction warfare and did not learn from their mistakes. Congratulations on wasting thousands of manhours on something that is going to fail because of an unbalanced reward. I know it's only a game, but since they even have a real life economist watching their economy and market balance, i expected a little more professionalism in this field. Are you new to eve? CCP implements framework features and builds off of them. FW will be expanded within the next few years, and you bet there will be additions to wormhole space.
Irongut M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2009.03.12 06:09:00 - [17] Isk is not your only reward. Have you considered that exploring W-space and fighting targets that pose more of a challenge might be more fun? It is a game after all. -- * Brace for Impact! *
Caishen	Posted - 2009.03.12 06:10:00 - [18] Originally by: Hobgoblin ll Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: Hobgoblin ll Killed the spawns with frigates, cruisers and 2 battleships many times. So, basically, you're complaining easy level w-space has crappy rewards? Who wuolda thought It was not easy. That 2 battlships did as much damage as a decent level 4 mission npc spawn. You need a battleship or command ship tank for them or at least a well tanked battlecruiser. You can't compare them to other npc battleships. And don't think that you get better reward with harder spawns. You will only get more battleships. But the loot of the battleship is the same like the loot of a frigate, only 4-5 more of that. Dude, that's what Cors was talking about. You found and EASY WH, from what i've seen on SISI there isnt 2 BS but 10th of BSes in "hard" wormholes, and i've seen myself those BSes killing a 40 pilot fleet... (true) Risk = (true) Reward
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.03.12 06:22:00 - [19] Originally by: Irongut Isk is not your only reward. Have you considered that exploring W-space and fighting targets that pose more of a challenge might be more fun? It is a game after all. Yeah sure, like ... factional warfare? And look how many people participate there. 15.000, out of how many, 250.000? That is 6%
Korerin Mayul	Posted - 2009.03.12 06:26:00 - [20] Originally by: Gnulpie And look how many people participate there. 15.000, out of how many, 250.000? That is 6% this abuse of numbers angers me. use the PCU figure not the 'all ime subscriber' figure, otherwise your calculating the population of a country including everyone who has now died: PCU - 40,000 ish, FW ish - 15,000 ish. therefore 37% uptake for FW, which, is pritty damn good.

Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2009.03.12 06:35:00 - [21] Originally by: Korerin Mayul Originally by: Gnulpie And look how many people participate there. 15.000, out of how many, 250.000? That is 6% this abuse of numbers angers me. use the PCU figure not the 'all ime subscriber' figure, otherwise your calculating the population of a country including everyone who has now died: PCU - 40,000 ish, FW ish - 15,000 ish. therefore 37% uptake for FW, which, is pritty damn good. It looks pretty good, because it's bull****. The 250,000 figure is current ACTIVE accounts, not people who don't play any more. The 6% figure is the correct one. Just the thought that someone out there thinks 37% of players are into FW.. made me laugh into my coffee a bit.
Korerin Mayul	Posted - 2009.03.12 06:39:00 - [22] Edited by: Korerin Mayul on 12/03/2009 06:40:42 yeah, it did sound a bit big; ok, if you can find me a figure for 'number of players who have logged in in the past 2 weeks' ill give you an accurate number, but 6% is a balls as 36%, the truth is somwhere in between those. edit you can at least devide your big number by two to take alts into account.... eugh. lies, dammed lies and statistics.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.03.12 06:40:00 - [23] Originally by: Korerin Mayul Originally by: Gnulpie And look how many people participate there. 15.000, out of how many, 250.000? That is 6% this abuse of numbers angers me. use the PCU figure not the 'all ime subscriber' figure, otherwise your calculating the population of a country including everyone who has now died: PCU - 40,000 ish, FW ish - 15,000 ish. therefore 37% uptake for FW, which, is pritty damn good. So you say that from all the time all the 15k FW warfare people are logged in and contribute to the 40k active players logged in? And no, total subscribers are not 'dead' but all paying people. Funny, talking about abuse of numbers My above numbers just indicate that most people want 'real' rewards which they can use everywhere in the Eve Universe and not just some fancy factional warfare points and decorations only few people care about. But that I said already long time ago, that is what common sense dictates. So, nothing new there.
Falcon Troy Caldari ZipZoom Kaboom Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.03.12 06:45:00 - [24] Edited by: Falcon Troy on 12/03/2009 06:45:29 Lol @ OP. He's obviously in hisec if people are talking about tanking in BCs. We just had 7 battleships and a commandship (We were well tanked but admittedly rushed a bit) get wasted in quite literally about 30 seconds. The rewards are about equal to the risk. _____________ Hai.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.12 06:46:00 - [25] Originally by: Korerin Mayul PCU PCU = Peak CONCURRENT Users That's people logged in at the same time. NOT total subscribers. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Korerin Mayul	Posted - 2009.03.12 06:49:00 - [26] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Korerin Mayul PCU PCU = Peak CONCURRENT Users That's people logged in at the same time. NOT total subscribers. true, however, total subscribers. != total players my numbers were wrong, as wrong as the 6% figure!
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2009.03.12 06:52:00 - [27] Your post fails and here is why...actually, screw it. I don't feel like going into all the reasons. Other people in the thread do a good job already.
PhaseShiftx	Posted - 2009.03.12 06:59:00 - [28] Yes he right everyone stay away from wormholes they're not worth it. ..... until I have the only supply of tech3 ships and can sell them at ridiculously overinflated prices its not risk vs reward its ease vs cost how easy is it to make a Tech2 cruiser these days ? friggin easy and the price drop when it first happened reflected that. the sheer logistics of putting a tech3 cruiser together is a hassle, there are easier ways to make money so people do the few left trying to make tech3 ships can then sell them more more isk than before so the hassle and time spent now becomes worth the effort. so yeah don't do Wormholes , please everyone stop doing wormholes Daddy needs a new Titan
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.12 07:00:00 - [29] Originally by: Korerin Mayul however, total subscribers. != total players So how do you define "player" then ? If somebody has 2 accounts, do you count him as a single player ? What if one of the accounts is in FW but the other isn't, does that count as 0.5 players in FW and 0.5 players not in FW ? Or what about people who only log in for a couple of hours a week, are they not players ? If they only log in to chat and change skills, they aren't players ? What if they log in just to change market orders, research and manufacture jobs, are they players then ? _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2009.03.12 07:01:00 - [30] Originally by: harogen There is more to wormhole space than running lvl 4 missions. For starters, it can be done by people who don't do agent missions and don't have lvl 4 agents. I know this may come as a shock to you that people actually don't run agent missions, but its true, they exist. Secondly, if you do take advantage of the gas clouds/hacking sites etc you will make a ton of isk. If all you do is shoot some easy rats, then no you won't make much. Then there's people like me who have full access to lucrative level four agents, but find level four missions mind-numbingly boring. I'd much rather make a little less money but have a lot more fun, and so far, w-space is a hell of a lot more fun than getting misssion #454 and shooting at mindless red crosses for 30 minutes to an hour. I like making ISK as much as the next guy, but I play Eve to have fun, not to increase a number.



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