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Vanessa Vernandez
Interstellar Management Acadamy
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Posted - 2009.03.15 12:09:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Vanessa Vernandez on 15/03/2009 12:15:23
Edited by: Vanessa Vernandez on 15/03/2009 12:10:06
Because I am tired of sitting in a fairly expensive carrier docked at the station - hauling rigged ships from time to time or repping POSs - I am thinking of a "throw-away-carrier" setup, which I can bring to mid-sized RR gangs in my corp (which doesn't has a big cap-fleet - best case would be two/three of us) as support, without being to much worried about losing it:
[Throw-Away Archon]
Capital Remote Armor Repper I
Capital Remote Armor Repper I
Capital Remote Armor Repper I
Capital Energy Transfer I
Large EMP Smartbomb II
Sensor Booster II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Capital Armor Repper I
Damage Control II
EANM II
CPR II
CPR II
CPR II
CPR II
3* CCC I Rigs
NO FIGHTERS
15 Heavy Drones IIs
15 Medium IIs
15 Light IIs
Modules/Drones cost overall: about 230M ISK
Ensurance costs: 230M ISK
So losing this carrier would cost you round about 460M ISK netto.
Well, that's still a lot of money, but if you would compare it with HAC's it the same amount of money as loosing round about 2,5 - 3 HACs. And franky, if you have reached this point in your EVE career I think that isn't that much money anymore.
Good or bad idea?
Well I think I can say that I have read more or less every single carrier thread on forums of the last 2-3 years, tried out quite a lot and as you might see I am convinced of the "Sokratesz-Way-Of-Fitting-Carriers" 
So a lot of cap-recharge and remote-repping - that's also the only thing which makes sense within this RR gang scenario. You don't really care about your local tank. It's about keeping the others alive and winning the fight. Drones are just there to assist another pilot in gang btw. Fighters would make this ship to expensive for throw-away in my eyes.
Question is, if you go that far - that you wanna fly carriers the "below 500M ISK throw-away stlye" - if it doesn't make sense to go triage right-away?
I must say that I feel quite enlightened with the throw-away setup and will really make me fly this thing more often than usual. The cost are really justifiably and no one cries about losing 2-3 HACs ... but of course: carrier losses on KB still look ugly and ruine your ratio 
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Zathrus
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Posted - 2009.03.15 12:16:00 -
[2]
You could also use this to support mining missions, Hulks have a fast lock time. |
Fifi LeFume
No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.03.15 12:17:00 -
[3]
why dont you use a bunch of logistics to supplement your gang instead?
If you hit a falcon you're boned and you're a big fat juicy liability to your gang mates
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arbiter reformed
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.03.15 13:14:00 -
[4]
tbh if you want a high risk high reward carrier its all about triage
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Riho
Gallente
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2009.03.15 15:29:00 -
[5]
if u dont want to use fighters and want to use it as support.... train triage and use that whit the setup you have :)
----------------------------------
Fighting for something
Yes... this is my main.
Extreme Troll Slayer...
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Smirna Auff
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Posted - 2009.03.15 16:43:00 -
[6]
Triage is totally worth it, required really, for what you're using it for.
Foundation has put together at least 1 really sweet vid to give you an idea of what triage can do here.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.03.15 17:18:00 -
[7]
Go triage if you're into the suicide thing, and fit more of a local buffer. (resists, not tank)
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.15 17:20:00 -
[8]
I'd add (but I'm broke so feel free to ignore me):
- 15x Sentries II
- A small raft of T1 drones
- ECM drones
- Neut drones
- Shield Rep drones
It might help to have a few fighters because they can follow people. They're godawful expensive though. 
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
TimMc
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.03.15 18:27:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Sokratesz
Go triage if you're into the suicide thing, and fit more of a local buffer. (resists, not tank)
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Enden Assulu
Caldari
Blood Money Inc.
Blood Money Cartel
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Posted - 2009.03.15 18:32:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Go triage if you're into the suicide thing, and fit more of a local buffer. (resists, not tank)
Still keep 2 Reps though as in triage you can not be Remote Rep'd and you get epic bonuses to Loal Rep from triage :D
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SgtGoodEnd
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Posted - 2009.03.15 18:36:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Zathrus
You could also use this to support mining missions, Hulks have a fast lock time.
I would do this, if its your cup of tea ofc.
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Holy Lowlander
Lone Star Joint Venture
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.03.15 20:05:00 -
[12]
I'd trow on a triage mod tbh.
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EFT Warrior
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Posted - 2009.03.15 21:18:00 -
[13]
IMO the Archon is the best carrier for triage because of the local tank, if you're feeling suicidal which it sounds like you are:
[Archon, Triage]
Capital Armor Repairer I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capital Armor Repairer I
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Capital Energy Transfer Array I
Large EMP Smartbomb II
Triage Module I
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Throw an exile booster in the hold, get yourself a set of Edge implants and train up thermodynamics for the inevitable dread hotdrop on you.
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Enden Assulu
Caldari
Blood Money Inc.
Blood Money Cartel
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Posted - 2009.03.15 21:20:00 -
[14]
Needs a DC II IMO the structure is to huge on a carrier not to
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Nadezhda Andropov
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Posted - 2009.03.15 21:51:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Enden Assulu
Needs a DC II IMO the structure is to huge on a carrier not to
I agree
Also, who made that sig of me? It's awesome! :D
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EFT Warrior
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Posted - 2009.03.15 21:54:00 -
[16]
Rarely will a DC make a difference in living or dying if you are under siege by dreads; at best you will live a little bit longer, but you either live through the damage dealt in time to get out of siege no problem or you die a horrible death very quickly. If you didn't have such a massive armor tank in triage with an Archon I would agree with you, but without the extra cap recharge from a power relay your ability to remote rep is severely hampered.
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Aaron Mirrorsaver
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.15 23:38:00 -
[17]
ive seen countless times when a dcu has saved a carrier, agaisnt dreads and otherwise.
as to the use of your carrier of lack their of, ive never been afraid to use mine, they are to replace, relatively cheap now. and why train something for so long and then dont undock? have some fun take some risk.
the more experience u have the more u know when u can more safely use it as well.
you dont need 4 cpr for maintaining those 3 armor reps.
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RECON is recruiting |
LegendInMyOwnMind
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Posted - 2009.03.15 23:42:00 -
[18]
If you absolutely MUST keep the CPRs, then at least swap one of the EANM's out for the DCII.
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fkingfurious
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Posted - 2009.03.15 23:53:00 -
[19]
In the case of triage **** the DCU off.
With dual rep and a pair of EANM II's (and everything else cap mods) an Archon can tank something in the region of 11,000DPS at about 60% cap. This gives you a fair amount Neutralizer resistance. Even with all the cap mods fitted however you will only get 5 minutes running a pair of Cap Remote Reps before your cap goes flat (with your local tank off, you go flat almost immediately if you try to run local tank and transfers).
If you're in Triage and in hull having a DCU fitted will not save you. Assuming your even close enough to the end of your triage cycle to have a chance of leaving, your cap will be too low to cyno and the fact that you're still begin shot at kind of implies that the enemy fleet is still very much alive and kicking (and ready to tackle you the second you come out of triage). Compared to fleet combat where Capitals and their support fleets can be some distance from their enemy (typically sniper range) a Triage Carrier is pretty much gonna be right in the front of a fight and as such its only chance to ever disengage from a fight is to win.
And on the subject of cheap, you dont need ANY drones when you're going triage, and it's worth checking the Smartbomb too, because triage mode does some very funny things to the activation costs of non-repper modules. Like making them 1000% higher.
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EFT Warrior
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Posted - 2009.03.16 00:01:00 -
[20]
If I recall correctly it only increases the activation cost of ECM modules and it's to an utterly ridiculously high amount to prevent triage ships from being ECM boats (not that they'd be effective at it unbonused).
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.03.16 05:50:00 -
[21]
The point of the exercise was, I believe, not to stay alive but to simply rep as much as possible. Sustained tank will not save you versus dreads, but buffer will let you live slightly longer. So no two reps, yes to a damage control.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.16 06:28:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Sokratesz
The point of the exercise was, I believe, not to stay alive but to simply rep as much as possible. Sustained tank will not save you versus dreads, but buffer will let you live slightly longer. So no two reps, yes to a damage control.
Why the change of heart on the DC? I remember you weren't a fan of it previously.
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Foulque
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Posted - 2009.03.16 07:26:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sokratesz
The point of the exercise was, I believe, not to stay alive but to simply rep as much as possible. Sustained tank will not save you versus dreads, but buffer will let you live slightly longer. So no two reps, yes to a damage control.
Why the change of heart on the DC? I remember you weren't a fan of it previously.
-Liang
Pretty sure the damage control argument was only ever up over caldari caps.
________
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.16 07:56:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Foulque
Pretty sure the damage control argument was only ever up over caldari caps.
Hmm, I thought it was that the DC should *always* be a CPR. I've been known to be wrong before, and this could be one of those times. Thanks.
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2009.03.16 09:12:00 -
[25]
Originally by: fkingfurious
In the case of triage **** the DCU off... If you're in Triage and in hull having a DCU fitted will not save you.
People seem to forget that a Damage Control isn't just a hull resists module.
If you've got two EANM fitted and want to fit a third, then even with maxed compensation skills, a T2 EANM will give 25% raw resistances and so around 14.25% after the stacking penalty. The Damage Control, which doesn't stack against EANMs, gives 15% armour resistances (as well as the hull resistances and a tiny bit of shield resists). Consequently even if a DCU gave no hull resists they would be worth fitting in this situation. The fact they increase the EHP of your hull by 150% is just icing on the cake.
Now I'm not going to say one way or another whether a third resistance module is worthwhile on a carrier over a CPR (and in fact in general, I would move more towards cap, especially with triage). However, saying that a Damage Control is not worth fitting because you don't need hull resists, is missing half the point of the module.
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vostok
Minmatar
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.03.16 09:21:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sokratesz
The point of the exercise was, I believe, not to stay alive but to simply rep as much as possible. Sustained tank will not save you versus dreads, but buffer will let you live slightly longer. So no two reps, yes to a damage control.
Why the change of heart on the DC? I remember you weren't a fan of it previously.
-Liang
I believe that was about caldari capitals, which as I remember get better EHP off shields.
Not tested so don't kill me if its wrong 
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Vanessa Vernandez
Interstellar Management Acadamy
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Posted - 2009.03.16 09:36:00 -
[27]
First of all - thanks for all the replies! Really appreciate it ... and I am also surprised that it it is such an "pro-triage" thread 
So I think you are absolutely right - I should really go directly for Triage. Makes much more sense - I also think that the Archon is an perfect triage carrier due to seven lows (one more CPR) and the resist bonus.
BTW: nice video - knew it already 
But I have to say, that I of course still would hope to survive this engagement and not wanna die per default ;) Of course - if dreads will appear on the field I am prolly doomed.
Question is also for me, which implants would be the best for this triage-setup? ...
Quote:
EDIT- Just as an aside. An all LvLV Archon with a mindlinked Damnation, 2x TS EANM and a strong Exile Booster tanks 21,000 DPS (27k overloaded). Unrealistic maybe but impressive nonetheless.
Quote:
Throw an exile booster in the hold, get yourself a set of Edge implants and train up thermodynamics for the inevitable dread hotdrop on you.
that of course sound quite impressive - with which DPS of a sieged dread would I have to calculate? 3500DPS? I mean that would be about 5 dreads a triage could tank already?!?!
but I have absolutely no idea about boosters. Also regarding the Damnation: I always assumed the cap-consumption and cycle-time warfare link doesn't apply to cap-reppers? true/false? or have you "just" talked about the resist warfare link?
until now I had the idea to invest into a slave set and nobles with the time - good/bad idea?
And finally: for me this whole "damage control question" in this triage scenario comes down to decision: go for max EHP to die slower (than go with DCII) OR try to tank the damage in armor, when you don't expect a couple or more of dreads on the field to arrive.
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fkingfurious
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Posted - 2009.03.16 10:19:00 -
[28]
With regards to a Triage setup the DCU vs. CPR argument isn't really to do with EHP/Tank, and more a question of cap stability.
With 2x EANM the Triage Archon with LvL 4 skills tanks 11K DPS at 60% ish Capacitor (a dual MFS II Blaster Moros does about 5k DPS). With it's local tank off it runs ONE Remote repper at 70% Cap or 2 for 7 minutes and 30 seconds (only 3 quarters of the time it will actually be in Triage mode). It can run ONE of it's local reps with both remotes for about 3 minutes and everything for 1.
If you drop a CPR for a DCU II its local tank goes from 11k to 12.5K and it gains an additional 450K EHP HOWEVER it's local tank is now only stable at about 40% cap (very little neut resisitance) and it can only run both remote reppers for 4 minutes, less than half the time you will spend in Triage mode.
Now obviously the extra local tank is nice, but just how stupid are you going to feel as the pilot of the triage Carrier when, having not been primaried and so remote repping like mad, you run out of cap with 6 minutes of your triage cycle left and have to sit their and watch your fleet explode.
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EFT Warrior
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Posted - 2009.03.17 01:33:00 -
[29]
Indeed, being able to remote rep is of prime importance over anything else in a carrier: all things being equal (gang vs gang) if you are the only capital on the field triage is very much worth it, as your local tank will suffice against a fleet of battleships. Like anything else you will fall to a dread hotdrop (nobody will be dropping a solitary dread on you, usually it's at least 3 or a dread with carrier support), damage control or not.
As for the implants, Edge is the most useful set for a carrier pilot next to Slaves, but I recommend Slaves only if you're a pilot in an armor tanking dreadnought (see: Revelation). Edge implants partially negate the side effects of boosters, the most detrimental being cap amount. Having only 16% of your capacitor taken away for half an hour is far better than having 30% removed.
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