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Tovarishch
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Posted - 2004.08.16 20:40:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Tovarishch on 16/08/2004 20:42:56 Anyone else seeing cash bonuses for every, single mission (no exaggeration) for the last several days? I know this is a stupid question as we all know agent rewards *are completely random*.
Just curious...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Insert inane 'leetspeak' signature here, or some idiotic picture that wastes bandwidth. *
The Tarsis Shriners |

Tovarishch
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Posted - 2004.08.16 20:40:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Tovarishch on 16/08/2004 20:42:56 Anyone else seeing cash bonuses for every, single mission (no exaggeration) for the last several days? I know this is a stupid question as we all know agent rewards *are completely random*.
Just curious...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Insert inane 'leetspeak' signature here, or some idiotic picture that wastes bandwidth. *
The Tarsis Shriners |

Eppy
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Posted - 2004.08.16 21:17:00 -
[3]
I've been missioning non-stop for 3 days. Approximately 90-95% of my mission bonus rewards have been a specific trade good. Only 5-10% of my mission bonus rewards have been a different item or cash.
Best regards, Eppy
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Eppy
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Posted - 2004.08.16 21:17:00 -
[4]
I've been missioning non-stop for 3 days. Approximately 90-95% of my mission bonus rewards have been a specific trade good. Only 5-10% of my mission bonus rewards have been a different item or cash.
Best regards, Eppy
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Vaughn Zoran
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Posted - 2004.08.16 21:24:00 -
[5]
Yes.
My Caldari Navy agents, 3 L3 & 1 L2, give out cash bonuses roughly 95% of the time...
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Vaughn Zoran
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Posted - 2004.08.16 21:24:00 -
[6]
Yes.
My Caldari Navy agents, 3 L3 & 1 L2, give out cash bonuses roughly 95% of the time...
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Shim'naunta
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Posted - 2004.08.17 00:18:00 -
[7]
My agent seems to give me a mix of tech 2 componets and skill books, both of which sell very well, the best i sold was for 3.6mil, thats what you call a bonus, especially as it was a implant mission too :)
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Shim'naunta
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Posted - 2004.08.17 00:18:00 -
[8]
My agent seems to give me a mix of tech 2 componets and skill books, both of which sell very well, the best i sold was for 3.6mil, thats what you call a bonus, especially as it was a implant mission too :)
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Vaughn Zoran
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Posted - 2004.08.17 00:59:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Shim'naunta My agent seems to give me a mix of tech 2 componets and skill books, both of which sell very well, the best i sold was for 3.6mil, thats what you call a bonus, especially as it was a implant mission too :)
Nice, very nice indeed 
I have yet, even after about 1 months worth of L3 Missions, to ever get an implant.. Getting quite frustrated as others talk about multiples weekly or even daily 
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Vaughn Zoran
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Posted - 2004.08.17 00:59:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Shim'naunta My agent seems to give me a mix of tech 2 componets and skill books, both of which sell very well, the best i sold was for 3.6mil, thats what you call a bonus, especially as it was a implant mission too :)
Nice, very nice indeed 
I have yet, even after about 1 months worth of L3 Missions, to ever get an implant.. Getting quite frustrated as others talk about multiples weekly or even daily 
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Daeyreth
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Posted - 2004.08.17 03:42:00 -
[11]
ITS RANDOM!!!!!!!!!!!
my god does no one read the hundreds maybe even thousands of these posts. every single day there's new ones. some get lucky some dont. people also say "o yeah but ive been doing missions for "x" amount of months..." if your gonna qoute time can you do it in realtion to how long you spend on eve or how many agent missions you have actually done and also if youve rejected any missions.
sorry for the rant but like i say there is hundreds of these posts.
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Daeyreth
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Posted - 2004.08.17 03:42:00 -
[12]
ITS RANDOM!!!!!!!!!!!
my god does no one read the hundreds maybe even thousands of these posts. every single day there's new ones. some get lucky some dont. people also say "o yeah but ive been doing missions for "x" amount of months..." if your gonna qoute time can you do it in realtion to how long you spend on eve or how many agent missions you have actually done and also if youve rejected any missions.
sorry for the rant but like i say there is hundreds of these posts.
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Ceejay
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Posted - 2004.08.17 04:06:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Ceejay on 17/08/2004 04:07:56
Originally by: Daeyreth ITS RANDOM!!!!!!!!!!!
my god does no one read the hundreds maybe even thousands of these posts. every single day there's new ones. some get lucky some dont. people also say "o yeah but ive been doing missions for "x" amount of months..." if your gonna qoute time can you do it in realtion to how long you spend on eve or how many agent missions you have actually done and also if youve rejected any missions.
sorry for the rant but like i say there is hundreds of these posts.
True - and maybe I'm seeing patterns where there arn't any, but methinks the agent bonus table = angent's corp sell list.
Being a lazy coder myself, I'd just write a substitute for cash as a bonus rather than a disallowed item on the sell-list if it comes up.
Loooots of BPs on Amarr Navy sell list...loooots of cash bonuses given out. /shrug
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Ceejay
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Posted - 2004.08.17 04:06:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Ceejay on 17/08/2004 04:07:56
Originally by: Daeyreth ITS RANDOM!!!!!!!!!!!
my god does no one read the hundreds maybe even thousands of these posts. every single day there's new ones. some get lucky some dont. people also say "o yeah but ive been doing missions for "x" amount of months..." if your gonna qoute time can you do it in realtion to how long you spend on eve or how many agent missions you have actually done and also if youve rejected any missions.
sorry for the rant but like i say there is hundreds of these posts.
True - and maybe I'm seeing patterns where there arn't any, but methinks the agent bonus table = angent's corp sell list.
Being a lazy coder myself, I'd just write a substitute for cash as a bonus rather than a disallowed item on the sell-list if it comes up.
Loooots of BPs on Amarr Navy sell list...loooots of cash bonuses given out. /shrug
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Daeyreth
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Posted - 2004.08.17 04:56:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Daeyreth on 17/08/2004 04:59:37 spelling mistake (i know there's probably lots more.)
i understand what your saying there most likely is some bizzare codding behind this but if there is its written that baddly that everything becomes "random"... problem is all these post and ccp still wont tell us why, or if there is actually a formula behind it, but yet people still ask the same question to everyone else and they always get the same answers... it just seems futile to me until ccp finally stand up and say . "yes it is etc etc..." and i dont think they plan on doing that any time soon. im just hoping that they have either tried to write a code or improve the one that exists for when shiva comes out. its also why i think they havent replied to any of these posts.
and i apologize for the earlier rant.
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Daeyreth
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Posted - 2004.08.17 04:56:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Daeyreth on 17/08/2004 04:59:37 spelling mistake (i know there's probably lots more.)
i understand what your saying there most likely is some bizzare codding behind this but if there is its written that baddly that everything becomes "random"... problem is all these post and ccp still wont tell us why, or if there is actually a formula behind it, but yet people still ask the same question to everyone else and they always get the same answers... it just seems futile to me until ccp finally stand up and say . "yes it is etc etc..." and i dont think they plan on doing that any time soon. im just hoping that they have either tried to write a code or improve the one that exists for when shiva comes out. its also why i think they havent replied to any of these posts.
and i apologize for the earlier rant.
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JP Beauregard
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Posted - 2004.08.17 04:56:00 -
[17]
Daeyreth, I feel for you. If this yammering continues, I might even start a petition to remove all bonuses from all agent missions.
Then at least people wouldn't have to grapple with the mysteries of randomness. Think of all the melodrama and hysterics we wouldn't have to endure!
JP Beauregard
=== The Pilkington Guides to EVE === |

JP Beauregard
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Posted - 2004.08.17 04:56:00 -
[18]
Daeyreth, I feel for you. If this yammering continues, I might even start a petition to remove all bonuses from all agent missions.
Then at least people wouldn't have to grapple with the mysteries of randomness. Think of all the melodrama and hysterics we wouldn't have to endure!
JP Beauregard
=== The Pilkington Guides to EVE === |

ockackies
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Posted - 2004.08.17 07:30:00 -
[19]
ive been having the same problems, I start a new agent, and evrythings fine untill i start refusing the odd mission or too, then they just point blank refuse to give anything but isk rewards! its most annoying. I also dont really want to try it out because it would ruin a few more agents, and I dont have many good ones left!
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ockackies
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Posted - 2004.08.17 07:30:00 -
[20]
ive been having the same problems, I start a new agent, and evrythings fine untill i start refusing the odd mission or too, then they just point blank refuse to give anything but isk rewards! its most annoying. I also dont really want to try it out because it would ruin a few more agents, and I dont have many good ones left!
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Kadril
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Posted - 2004.08.17 07:33:00 -
[21]
I've known soem friends who get 100% cash bonus rewards from certain agents and they've been running missions nonstop for weeks to months. The cash isn't bad but it does get a bit boring at times. |

Kadril
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Posted - 2004.08.17 07:33:00 -
[22]
I've known soem friends who get 100% cash bonus rewards from certain agents and they've been running missions nonstop for weeks to months. The cash isn't bad but it does get a bit boring at times. |

Ambitio
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Posted - 2004.08.17 08:05:00 -
[23]
This happened to me to with a lvl 2 agent with quality 10 at Republic fleet. I did all his kill missions but he sometimes gave me courier amd other boring missions, i declined them all. After that he only gave me cash as bonus. Now i have taken a lvl 3 agent and he gives me good bonuses and i havent declined even one mission and i wont. If i decline a mission the agent system must know that i declined it because i dont like the mission, not because i dont like the bonus. I have never said no to a mission because the reward + bonus is bad. Maybe we should be able to give a reason for declining.
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Ambitio
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Posted - 2004.08.17 08:05:00 -
[24]
This happened to me to with a lvl 2 agent with quality 10 at Republic fleet. I did all his kill missions but he sometimes gave me courier amd other boring missions, i declined them all. After that he only gave me cash as bonus. Now i have taken a lvl 3 agent and he gives me good bonuses and i havent declined even one mission and i wont. If i decline a mission the agent system must know that i declined it because i dont like the mission, not because i dont like the bonus. I have never said no to a mission because the reward + bonus is bad. Maybe we should be able to give a reason for declining.
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ockackies
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Posted - 2004.08.17 11:33:00 -
[25]
I also have a horrible feeling that this may be stopping me getting implants, ive had many important missions now(30-40) and ive never had one that didnt just give isk as reward, apart from one which i got as a second mission from a new agent and they gave me a skill book.
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ockackies
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Posted - 2004.08.17 11:33:00 -
[26]
I also have a horrible feeling that this may be stopping me getting implants, ive had many important missions now(30-40) and ive never had one that didnt just give isk as reward, apart from one which i got as a second mission from a new agent and they gave me a skill book.
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Vaughn Zoran
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Posted - 2004.08.17 12:16:00 -
[27]
Daeyreth,
Seeing as many cash bonuses as I and others here have seen imply's it's something more than `Random` as you state it... Yes Implants are random as I've read most of the other posts your referring to but it's uncanny so many are just receiving isk rewards + bonuses...
95% is not random IMHO
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Vaughn Zoran
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Posted - 2004.08.17 12:16:00 -
[28]
Daeyreth,
Seeing as many cash bonuses as I and others here have seen imply's it's something more than `Random` as you state it... Yes Implants are random as I've read most of the other posts your referring to but it's uncanny so many are just receiving isk rewards + bonuses...
95% is not random IMHO
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Andrue
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Posted - 2004.08.17 13:06:00 -
[29]
I had one last weekend that didn't claim to have a bonus but had two cash rewards listed. I've no idea if the second was supposed to be a bonus but I got them both. -- (Battle hardened miner)
[Brackley, UK]
WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality. |

Andrue
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Posted - 2004.08.17 13:06:00 -
[30]
I had one last weekend that didn't claim to have a bonus but had two cash rewards listed. I've no idea if the second was supposed to be a bonus but I got them both. -- (Battle hardened miner)
[Brackley, UK]
WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality. |

Vigilant
|
Posted - 2004.08.17 18:24:00 -
[31]
Have the same problem now with my security Agent (Level 3)...
Constant Cash...nothing else...after cancelling one couier job...
CCP reset all AGENT Mission Reward/Bonus Tables NOW
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Vigilant
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Posted - 2004.08.17 18:24:00 -
[32]
Have the same problem now with my security Agent (Level 3)...
Constant Cash...nothing else...after cancelling one couier job...
CCP reset all AGENT Mission Reward/Bonus Tables NOW
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Sabahl
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Posted - 2004.08.17 18:27:00 -
[33]
There's already a discussion about this right here.
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Sabahl
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Posted - 2004.08.17 18:27:00 -
[34]
There's already a discussion about this right here.
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Rover Vitesse
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Posted - 2004.08.18 13:58:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Ceejay Edited by: Ceejay on 17/08/2004 04:07:56 snip True - and maybe I'm seeing patterns where there arn't any, but methinks the agent bonus table = angent's corp sell list.
Being a lazy coder myself, I'd just write a substitute for cash as a bonus rather than a disallowed item on the sell-list if it comes up.
Loooots of BPs on Amarr Navy sell list...loooots of cash bonuses given out. /shrug
Yup, its true that the bonuses given out by agents are the same goods their respective corps produce/sell. There is a post somewhere about this, with input from Papa I think, but I can't be bothered to look for it :)
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Rover Vitesse
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Posted - 2004.08.18 13:58:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ceejay Edited by: Ceejay on 17/08/2004 04:07:56 snip True - and maybe I'm seeing patterns where there arn't any, but methinks the agent bonus table = angent's corp sell list.
Being a lazy coder myself, I'd just write a substitute for cash as a bonus rather than a disallowed item on the sell-list if it comes up.
Loooots of BPs on Amarr Navy sell list...loooots of cash bonuses given out. /shrug
Yup, its true that the bonuses given out by agents are the same goods their respective corps produce/sell. There is a post somewhere about this, with input from Papa I think, but I can't be bothered to look for it :)
|

Krendig
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Posted - 2004.08.18 19:56:00 -
[37]
I think the agents get a limited number of bonuses they can hand out in any time period.
The more heavily used agents seem more susceptible to repeating missions and the "cash only" rewards.
When the agents start handing out bonuses that look like:
Rewards ------- 125000 108000
I pack up and find a less used agent. 
--Krendig
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Krendig
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Posted - 2004.08.18 19:56:00 -
[38]
I think the agents get a limited number of bonuses they can hand out in any time period.
The more heavily used agents seem more susceptible to repeating missions and the "cash only" rewards.
When the agents start handing out bonuses that look like:
Rewards ------- 125000 108000
I pack up and find a less used agent. 
--Krendig
|

Jocca Quinn
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Posted - 2004.08.20 12:18:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Krendig I think the agents get a limited number of bonuses they can hand out in any time period.
The more heavily used agents seem more susceptible to repeating missions and the "cash only" rewards.
When the agents start handing out bonuses that look like:
Rewards ------- 125000 108000
I pack up and find a less used agent. 
--Krendig
Thats an interesting theory. Most of my agents with this problem are in "core systems" .. then again it is also happening with agents in 0.3 space where the traffic is less.
JQ
none of us are free as long as one of us is chained none of us are free |

Jocca Quinn
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Posted - 2004.08.20 12:18:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Krendig I think the agents get a limited number of bonuses they can hand out in any time period.
The more heavily used agents seem more susceptible to repeating missions and the "cash only" rewards.
When the agents start handing out bonuses that look like:
Rewards ------- 125000 108000
I pack up and find a less used agent. 
--Krendig
Thats an interesting theory. Most of my agents with this problem are in "core systems" .. then again it is also happening with agents in 0.3 space where the traffic is less.
JQ
none of us are free as long as one of us is chained none of us are free |

PaulLRyan
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Posted - 2004.08.21 10:16:00 -
[41]
I'm still not convinced it is random.
/me hides for 5 minutes
/me sees if coast is clear
Right. I was getting a reasonable mix of cash, ammo and stuff and the odd tech II component from my lvl3 agent in a reasnonably random manner. Then they wanted me to do a cargo mission requiring 1000m3 of cargo space. A quick look at the claw and nope, it ain't gonna fit. So I reject the mission. Next mission, same thing. Different text, different place but still needs 1000m3 of cargo space. Have to reject that one too. For 3 days since that happened I've got nothing but cash as a bonus reward.
just plodding along hoping to break the cycle and get back to a reasonably varied set of bonus stuff.
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PaulLRyan
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Posted - 2004.08.21 10:16:00 -
[42]
I'm still not convinced it is random.
/me hides for 5 minutes
/me sees if coast is clear
Right. I was getting a reasonable mix of cash, ammo and stuff and the odd tech II component from my lvl3 agent in a reasnonably random manner. Then they wanted me to do a cargo mission requiring 1000m3 of cargo space. A quick look at the claw and nope, it ain't gonna fit. So I reject the mission. Next mission, same thing. Different text, different place but still needs 1000m3 of cargo space. Have to reject that one too. For 3 days since that happened I've got nothing but cash as a bonus reward.
just plodding along hoping to break the cycle and get back to a reasonably varied set of bonus stuff.
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DrPhil
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Posted - 2004.08.21 23:03:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Daeyreth ITS RANDOM!!!!!!!!!!!
my god does no one read the hundreds maybe even thousands of these posts. every single day there's new ones. some get lucky some dont. people also say "o yeah but ive been doing missions for "x" amount of months..." if your gonna qoute time can you do it in realtion to how long you spend on eve or how many agent missions you have actually done and also if youve rejected any missions.
sorry for the rant but like i say there is hundreds of these posts.
I am not sure it is random. I have worked for a corp up to getting a corp rating of over 8 (before connections skill) and I never got *ANY* T2 components, as far as I recall I *only* ever got cash bonuses. Now I am not complaining but I do not think it is completely random - I believe there are some other factors invovled.
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DrPhil
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Posted - 2004.08.21 23:03:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Daeyreth ITS RANDOM!!!!!!!!!!!
my god does no one read the hundreds maybe even thousands of these posts. every single day there's new ones. some get lucky some dont. people also say "o yeah but ive been doing missions for "x" amount of months..." if your gonna qoute time can you do it in realtion to how long you spend on eve or how many agent missions you have actually done and also if youve rejected any missions.
sorry for the rant but like i say there is hundreds of these posts.
I am not sure it is random. I have worked for a corp up to getting a corp rating of over 8 (before connections skill) and I never got *ANY* T2 components, as far as I recall I *only* ever got cash bonuses. Now I am not complaining but I do not think it is completely random - I believe there are some other factors invovled.
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Nublaak
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Posted - 2004.08.22 00:22:00 -
[45]
Well it is random but the frequency of cash as reward seems to be at around the 50% mark, for me at least. I started making a database with all the missions I did about a month ago. Out of the 118 missions I did since I started the database, up to the last patch, 52 missions gave isk as a bonus reward, so a little under 50%. After the patch out of the 76 missions 38 gave cash as rewards exactly 50%, so still around the same as last patch. So to sum it up, out of 194 documented missions 90 have given isk as reward, so I think it's safe to assume that it's a flip of the coin wether you get cash or an item.
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Nublaak
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Posted - 2004.08.22 00:22:00 -
[46]
Well it is random but the frequency of cash as reward seems to be at around the 50% mark, for me at least. I started making a database with all the missions I did about a month ago. Out of the 118 missions I did since I started the database, up to the last patch, 52 missions gave isk as a bonus reward, so a little under 50%. After the patch out of the 76 missions 38 gave cash as rewards exactly 50%, so still around the same as last patch. So to sum it up, out of 194 documented missions 90 have given isk as reward, so I think it's safe to assume that it's a flip of the coin wether you get cash or an item.
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DrPhil
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Posted - 2004.08.22 08:24:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Nublaak Well it is random but the frequency of cash as reward seems to be at around the 50% mark, for me at least. I started making a database with all the missions I did about a month ago. Out of the 118 missions I did since I started the database, up to the last patch, 52 missions gave isk as a bonus reward, so a little under 50%. After the patch out of the 76 missions 38 gave cash as rewards exactly 50%, so still around the same as last patch. So to sum it up, out of 194 documented missions 90 have given isk as reward, so I think it's safe to assume that it's a flip of the coin wether you get cash or an item.
For most of the corps I have worked for I'd agree it was random but since one of the corps I have worked for only gave me ISK I do think the corp you work for makes a differnece too.
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DrPhil
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Posted - 2004.08.22 08:24:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Nublaak Well it is random but the frequency of cash as reward seems to be at around the 50% mark, for me at least. I started making a database with all the missions I did about a month ago. Out of the 118 missions I did since I started the database, up to the last patch, 52 missions gave isk as a bonus reward, so a little under 50%. After the patch out of the 76 missions 38 gave cash as rewards exactly 50%, so still around the same as last patch. So to sum it up, out of 194 documented missions 90 have given isk as reward, so I think it's safe to assume that it's a flip of the coin wether you get cash or an item.
For most of the corps I have worked for I'd agree it was random but since one of the corps I have worked for only gave me ISK I do think the corp you work for makes a differnece too.
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ockackies
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Posted - 2004.08.22 15:29:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Nublaak Well it is random but the frequency of cash as reward seems to be at around the 50% mark, for me at least. I started making a database with all the missions I did about a month ago. Out of the 118 missions I did since I started the database, up to the last patch, 52 missions gave isk as a bonus reward, so a little under 50%. After the patch out of the 76 missions 38 gave cash as rewards exactly 50%, so still around the same as last patch. So to sum it up, out of 194 documented missions 90 have given isk as reward, so I think it's safe to assume that it's a flip of the coin wether you get cash or an item.
Yeah, Ive just changed agent again, and im now back to the 50% isk, 50% item bonus rewards, but it definatly seems that you can upset your agent by refusing (or possibly failing to get the mission done in bonus time) and then its 100% isk.
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ockackies
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Posted - 2004.08.22 15:29:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Nublaak Well it is random but the frequency of cash as reward seems to be at around the 50% mark, for me at least. I started making a database with all the missions I did about a month ago. Out of the 118 missions I did since I started the database, up to the last patch, 52 missions gave isk as a bonus reward, so a little under 50%. After the patch out of the 76 missions 38 gave cash as rewards exactly 50%, so still around the same as last patch. So to sum it up, out of 194 documented missions 90 have given isk as reward, so I think it's safe to assume that it's a flip of the coin wether you get cash or an item.
Yeah, Ive just changed agent again, and im now back to the 50% isk, 50% item bonus rewards, but it definatly seems that you can upset your agent by refusing (or possibly failing to get the mission done in bonus time) and then its 100% isk.
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Tovarishch
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Posted - 2004.08.24 00:16:00 -
[51]
I switched agents recently and have noticed the exact same pattern. The new agent hands out plenty of Tech II and other bonuses... whereas the agent that I was forced to cancel missions for (because of the stuck missions bug where Gms required you to cancel the mission and would then repair your standing) only hands out cash bonuses.
Something is seriously amiss here. Any chance a dev has a comment to offer?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Insert inane 'leetspeak' signature here, or some idiotic picture that wastes bandwidth. *
The Tarsis Shriners |

Tovarishch
|
Posted - 2004.08.24 00:16:00 -
[52]
I switched agents recently and have noticed the exact same pattern. The new agent hands out plenty of Tech II and other bonuses... whereas the agent that I was forced to cancel missions for (because of the stuck missions bug where Gms required you to cancel the mission and would then repair your standing) only hands out cash bonuses.
Something is seriously amiss here. Any chance a dev has a comment to offer?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Insert inane 'leetspeak' signature here, or some idiotic picture that wastes bandwidth. *
The Tarsis Shriners |

Infi
|
Posted - 2004.08.24 09:08:00 -
[53]
I view my bonuses as just that - bonuses. I don't really care what they are.
Now, having said that, some of you get Tech2 components as a bonus? I'm using a lvl3 Cal Navy quality +15 agent, and I get ISK most of the time. The times I do not, it's 1500 rockets, or 50 75mm Gatling Guns. So I prefer the cash. Although I do think it is nice to be "surprised" with bonuses, even if it's something fairly worthless.
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Infi
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Posted - 2004.08.24 09:08:00 -
[54]
I view my bonuses as just that - bonuses. I don't really care what they are.
Now, having said that, some of you get Tech2 components as a bonus? I'm using a lvl3 Cal Navy quality +15 agent, and I get ISK most of the time. The times I do not, it's 1500 rockets, or 50 75mm Gatling Guns. So I prefer the cash. Although I do think it is nice to be "surprised" with bonuses, even if it's something fairly worthless.
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