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Illayne Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.03.16 00:21:00 - [1] I am starting to look into training for t2 frigates/cruisers for PvP, what kind of ships are highly recommended and are in high demand for a 0.0/small gang warfare? This is for pilots that are still less than a year old in terms of combat skill point training. Gallente and Minmatar ship skills related preferably.
achoura	Posted - 2009.03.16 00:23:00 - [2] Zealot is easily the least skill intensive hac and the falcon, assuming you skip missile skills, is the least skill intensive recon. *The EVE servers and their patches*
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.03.16 00:23:00 - [3] Interceptor.
Warrio Southern Cross Incorporated Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.16 00:31:00 - [4] If you want to be useful to a 0.0 alliance in a recon or HAC then train a falcon. Sure, the Zealot and Vaga are nice for little funtime pointless roaming gangs but in fleet warfare, anything that's not a falcon is second rate. sXe
achoura	Posted - 2009.03.16 00:44:00 - [5] Originally by: Warrio If you want to be useful to a 0.0 alliance in a recon or HAC then train a falcon. Sure, the Zealot and Vaga are nice for little funtime pointless roaming gangs but in fleet warfare, anything that's not a falcon is second rate. Ignorance is bliss. *The EVE servers and their patches*
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.03.16 00:55:00 - [6] Originally by: achoura Originally by: Warrio If you want to be useful to a 0.0 alliance in a recon or HAC then train a falcon. Sure, the Zealot and Vaga are nice for little funtime pointless roaming gangs but in fleet warfare, anything that's not a falcon is second rate. Ignorance is bliss. Yep
Renarla	Posted - 2009.03.16 01:06:00 - [7] Less than a year old? Interceptors and Covert Ops are very easy to get into. HACs and Recons are great, but they require about a years worth a training for a new character.
Illayne Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.03.16 01:16:00 - [8] Are Gallente T2 AS/HACs so much more weaker now? There isn't many of them that are worth flying compared to Minmatar/Amarr ships? My skill points are high in drones and hybrid weapons, I would like it to link up to my Gallente Battleship goals in the future.
Renarla	Posted - 2009.03.16 01:23:00 - [9] Tbh I find the Gallente HACs lacking, but the Ishkur is one of the best AFs at the moment. (If not the best.)
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.03.16 01:42:00 - [10] AS you are a starter in pvp you should use cheap ships like ceptor and assaultfrigs until you got some experience. These costs like 20-30m fit included a hac costs 90-110m without fit.

arbiter reformed Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.03.16 02:40:00 - [11] zealots are not non skill intensive you must be having a laugh srsly... anyway ceptors is the way to go , ranis or crusader
TimMc Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.03.16 02:43:00 - [12] Originally by: Naomi Knight Interceptor.
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis SIRRIUS.	Posted - 2009.03.16 02:46:00 - [13] Interdictor as well. Young pilots should probably stay out of T2 ships until they can comfortably lose them. A lot of T1 ships PvP a lot better and can do it much more cheaper (T1 cruisers can kill AFs easily and BCs can kill HACs easily as an example). *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Dethis Caldari Queens of the Stone Age Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.03.16 02:49:00 - [14] Train up for a HAC imo but don't bother flying one for a while, a well fit t1 cruiser and BC's are underestimated imo --------
Illayne Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.03.16 02:54:00 - [15] Edited by: Illayne on 16/03/2009 02:56:18 I think I will go ahead and do that(train for interceptor). Is a Taranis any good? In terms of speed and dodging turrets fire from cruisers and above?
arbiter reformed Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.03.16 02:55:00 - [16] Originally by: Illayne I think I will go ahead and do that. Is a Taranis any good? its awesome takes alot of thinking to fly, lethal ship but crusader is more versatile and awesome solo too
UMEE Tactical Initiative	Posted - 2009.03.16 03:00:00 - [17] i would recommend aiming for the Ishkur, tech 2 drones and tech 2 small guns. this will allow you to make money easily, and the skills will be transferable. in addition, this is probably the best AF in the game. as your drone skills get up there, you can start planning for the Ishtar. it's a fantastic ship, and its t1 variant (the Vexor) is one of the best t1 cruisers for both pvp and pve. as your cruiser 5 skill is training, you should spend some time in the Dominix. eventually, you'll be flying it the most. somewhere in there, id train evasive maneuvering 5 for the ranis/ares. once you have frig 5, it's only an extra 10 days. these ships will allow you smooth entry into some pvp. this is the path i took and i didnt have any regrets. ive been active in pvp and pve, trying many different things. overall, i would not recommend training for minnie ships at this point; they require quite a bit of skill points in different areas. for example, to effectively fly the Typhoon, you'll need t2 drones, armor tanking skills, t2 missiles and t2 guns. minnie ships are something to aim for as a distant goal because theyre quite skill intensive.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2009.03.16 03:14:00 - [18] Originally by: Illayne Are Gallente T2 AS/HACs so much more weaker now? There isn't many of them that are worth flying compared to Minmatar/Amarr ships? My skill points are high in drones and hybrid weapons, I would like it to link up to my Gallente Battleship goals in the future. Gallente is still pretty good. The Deimos is quite hopeless (but then it's always been quite hopeless) and I have no idea how the Enyo is doing (because I haven't seen it flown in over a year now), but the Ishkur, Ishtar, Ares and Taranis are all good. The taranis is one of the best low-sec/empire war solo-interceptors, capable of dueling against other frigates (including inties) and taking out soft targets (and it's a superb addition against heavier enemies when used in frigatepacks). The Ares is an excellent tackler. The Ishkur is a superb vessel against frigate/cruisersized targets thanks to it's large dronebay. Finally, the Ishtar packs a lot of firepower for its size. It can be used successfully as a 0.0 gatecamper (sentries), 0.0/low-sec etc. Also, thanks to its low-slots and that it deals its damage through drones its hard to predict what an Ishtar will be packing. It can be shieldtanked, armortanked (though not at the same time), use a DPS fit (shieldtanked with MFS in the lows), E-war or Neuts in the highs. Zealot&Falcon is FOTM, but the Ishtar is quite a respectable vessel. ______________________________________________ -My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn.
Illayne Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.03.16 04:00:00 - [19] Thank you all for the great info so far. Any suggestions for a reasonably priced ishkur fitting for pvp? What is the biggest drone type that can fit in it by the way?
AKULA UrQuan Caldari Druuge Crimson Corporation	Posted - 2009.03.16 05:16:00 - [20] Interceptor. Crow does just fine even with mediocre missile skills.

Lt Angus Caldari End Game. Dead End.	Posted - 2009.03.16 05:23:00 - [21] HIC BABY please resize your signature to the maximum allowed file size of 24000 bytes. Navigator Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
Zhilia Mann	Posted - 2009.03.16 05:24:00 - [22] Edited by: Zhilia Mann on 16/03/2009 05:24:43 Originally by: Illayne Thank you all for the great info so far. Any suggestions for a reasonably priced ishkur fitting for pvp? What is the biggest drone type that can fit in it by the way? Fully skilled, you could fit 2 sentries/heavies, but you could only use one at a time due to bandwidth restrictions. Gone are the glory days of the 5 medium drone Ishkur. In practical terms, you would always be using 5 light drones and have a number of spares equal to your AF skill.
mishkof Caldari Dirty Denizens	Posted - 2009.03.16 05:26:00 - [23] I recomend the T1 cruiser for your race you are most confortable with, then interceptors for the first six-twelve months you PVP.
ronasds	Posted - 2009.03.16 05:53:00 - [24] I would not recommend any t2 cruiser for a young pilot simply because they are too expensive to lose, can't be insured, for pvp learning purposes. They will most likely not know how to use their ships to the fullest, not simply because they lack the skills to fit certain modules, but also due to the fact that they lack combat experience. Just fly t1 cruisers until you get t2 medium stuff, and jump into a BC.
Renarla	Posted - 2009.03.16 05:57:00 - [25] Originally by: Zhilia Mann Edited by: Zhilia Mann on 16/03/2009 05:24:43 Originally by: Illayne Thank you all for the great info so far. Any suggestions for a reasonably priced ishkur fitting for pvp? What is the biggest drone type that can fit in it by the way? Fully skilled, you could fit 2 sentries/heavies, but you could only use one at a time due to bandwidth restrictions. Gone are the glory days of the 5 medium drone Ishkur. In practical terms, you would always be using 5 light drones and have a number of spares equal to your AF skill. Yup. Ishkur fit: 3x Ion II (Faction Antimatter) Small Nos Named AB Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler (Best named, better than T2 and cheaper.) Small Cap Booster II (Cap Boost 100) Small Armor Repper II Damage Control II Armor Explosive Hardener II 5x Hobgoblin II 4x Hobgoblin II / Warrior II spares
Orakkus Minmatar m3 Corp BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.03.16 06:10:00 - [26] Originally by: Illayne I am starting to look into training for t2 frigates/cruisers for PvP, what kind of ships are highly recommended and are in high demand for a 0.0/small gang warfare? This is for pilots that are still less than a year old in terms of combat skill point training. Gallente and Minmatar ship skills related preferably. Hmm.. well, if its like most gangs, then everyone wants to be on the killmail. So, best bet would be for them to develop the appreciation for those functions in a gang that might not put them on said killmail. However, at one year, the variety of skills could definately be there.. but if you want consistancy, this is the order I would place them in levels of importance. 1. Covert Ops - Critical for any serious gang. Especially very important now that probing has completely changed. (Minmatar - Cheetah, Gallente - Helios) 2. Interceptors - Truthfully, almost as critical as a Covert Ops, especially if you need to snag skillful pilots. A squad of these can really mess up a fleet's day, especially if they are trying to get away. (Minmatar - Claw, Stilleto, Gallente - Ares, Taranis) 3. Assault Frigates - Until Quantum Rise, they were pretty much a waste of iskies. Now, they are a premier pirate ship that is fast, has great locking speed, and can put dps on target. There is a reason they doubled in price after Quantum Rise. (Minmatar - Wolf, Jaguar, Gallente - Enyo, Ishkur) 4. Electronic Attack Frigates - These are good to have in the small T2 Frigate fleets, however, they are best used as sort of a "try before you buy" E-war ship. That way you can decide if you have the real skill or desire to learn how to use Recon Cruisers. The T2 cruisers on the other hand I think require alot more.. understanding because the best T2 Minmatar cruiser class to try for, would not necessarily be the best T2 Amarr cruiser class to try for. I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet.
Easley Thames The Maverick Navy PuPPet MasTers	Posted - 2009.03.16 06:28:00 - [27] Without knowing your exact skills, I'd go with the following list of Gal/Mini ships for a small gang. To fly them well get the appropriate weapon & support skills up to the point where you can fit T2. Best T1 Cruiser Options: Rupture (train for t2 autos) Vexor (train for t2 drones, use a mixed batch totaling 75m3 of bandwidth) Thorax (train for t2 blasters + ecm drones) Easiest T2 Training: Wolf (train t2 autos) Jaguar (train t2 autos) Enyo (train t2 blasters) Slightly More SP: Taranis (all nav stills 4 or 5, t2 hybrids) Ishkur (train for t2 light drones, t2 hybrids) Stiletto (all nav skills 4 or 5) Hyena Most useful small gang T2 Cruisers (Gal / Matar): Ishtar Rapier Vaga Arazu Scimitar
UMEE Tactical Initiative	Posted - 2009.03.16 06:30:00 - [28] Originally by: Illayne Thank you all for the great info so far. Any suggestions for a reasonably priced ishkur fitting for pvp? What is the biggest drone type that can fit in it by the way? many ishkur threads out there, so have a look (use Eve Search, google it). main things for you to understand: - Ishkur, and other AF's, and not really dps platforms in pvp; they are "heavy tacklers" - in pve, you'll want to setup for maximum dps, and ishkur is best for this; you will be able to do L2/L3 missions with ease, and melt through 0.0 rats (given T2 drones and guns) - to be really effective with an AF, you'll need at least a few months of skilling up and lots of frigate pvp experience; T2 fitted ishkurs cost 30-35mill, and losing them sux even for veterans. keep your ishkur in pve for a while, and join a good pvp corp (or faction warfare) to get some training
UMEE Tactical Initiative	Posted - 2009.03.16 06:31:00 - [29] Originally by: Easley Thames Without knowing your exact skills, I'd go with the following list of Gal/Mini ships for a small gang. To fly them well get the appropriate weapon & support skills up to the point where you can fit T2. Best T1 Cruiser Options: Rupture (train for t2 autos) Vexor (train for t2 drones, use a mixed batch totaling 75m3 of bandwidth) Thorax (train for t2 blasters + ecm drones) Easiest T2 Training: Wolf (train t2 autos) Jaguar (train t2 autos) Enyo (train t2 blasters) Slightly More SP: Taranis (all nav stills 4 or 5, t2 hybrids) Ishkur (train for t2 light drones, t2 hybrids) Stiletto (all nav skills 4 or 5) Hyena Most useful small gang T2 Cruisers (Gal / Matar): Ishtar Rapier Vaga Arazu Scimitar im not implying that im a big deal or anything, but i totally approve of what he said.
Ig Neus	Posted - 2009.03.16 06:45:00 - [30] Ishkur can be fit as a Heavy tackler (MWD, long range disruptor, probably a cap booster and perhaps rails instead of Blasters) or a close range DPS Frigate (AB, Web, scrambler). Generally for most gangs you want to fly as a tackler, using an AF for DPS is a bit stupid when a T1 Cruiser does more and tanks more when webbed / scrambled. If you do some soloing (doubt it in 0.0 with an Ishkur) or need to be faster/more agile or anything feel free to fit it with AB and Blasters. It generally has lots of success. I think the best way to train generally is AFs (easier to train for), followed by Interceptors. At that point find out what you like or what you "need" to fly for your gang and train for it.

Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.03.16 07:15:00 - [31] Originally by: Illayne Are Gallente T2 AS/HACs so much more weaker now? There isn't many of them that are worth flying compared to Minmatar/Amarr ships? My skill points are high in drones and hybrid weapons, I would like it to link up to my Gallente Battleship goals in the future. Ishkur is awesome, Ishtar is mediocre but can still get kills, Enyo and Deimos are trash and only useful for reprocessing to build ships that don't suck. PS: AB on an Ishkur (or any other AF) = comedy killmail. Fit your MWD or go back to carebearing. -----------
Ig Neus	Posted - 2009.03.16 07:22:00 - [32] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Illayne Are Gallente T2 AS/HACs so much more weaker now? There isn't many of them that are worth flying compared to Minmatar/Amarr ships? My skill points are high in drones and hybrid weapons, I would like it to link up to my Gallente Battleship goals in the future. Ishkur is awesome, Ishtar is mediocre but can still get kills, Enyo and Deimos are trash and only useful for reprocessing to build ships that don't suck. PS: AB on an Ishkur (or any other AF) = comedy killmail. Fit your MWD or go back to carebearing. Generalizing ftw. Not that you are wrong in most cases but I think you are smart enough to understand there are cases where Ishkur should be fit with an AB (for example low sec solo piracy where targets are mainly ratting Cruisers/BCs) or even Deimos is good (=the rare cases where speed is important enough to prefer it to a gank BC or, again, for soloing)
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.03.16 07:35:00 - [33] Originally by: Ig Neus Generalizing ftw. Not that you are wrong in most cases but I think you are smart enough to understand there are cases where Ishkur should be fit with an AB (for example low sec solo piracy where targets are mainly ratting Cruisers/BCs) There are not. And even if there were, lowsec piracy is definitely not one of them. I'm a pirate, and trust me on this: AB = suicide. It might be fine for ganking noobs in Caracals, but once a rival pirate shows up to ruin your day, you either have a MWD or you're a free killmail. Quote: or even Deimos is good (=the rare cases where speed is important enough to prefer it to a gank BC or, again, for soloing There is no possible scenario in which a Deimos is both better than a Zealot and better enough than a Brutix to justify costing 3x as much. No matter what the situation, there is always a better choice than a Deimos. -----------
Ig Neus	Posted - 2009.03.16 07:52:00 - [34] Edited by: Ig Neus on 16/03/2009 07:53:48 A simple scenario where a Deimos is better than a Zealot is HAC 1v1, good luck dealing with the Medium ECM Drones + Deimos firepower. I know that HAC 1v1s are not a common thing but the "there is no case" attitude is provoking me :) About soloing at low sec and AB on Ishkur, you can kill long range frigates without your blasters and you can get in range of most cruisers by piloting manually, even if they do not suck. After you get there, AB >>> MWD. Still I agree that for gangs, an AF is a heavy tackler that should fit MWD and long range disruptor. Edit : Of course, if a decent enemy pilot gets there in anything better than a T1 Cruiser (or even some of them), you will lose. But you will lose no matter what you fit, so your argument is pointless. When soloing you should fit for fights you can actually win.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.03.16 08:00:00 - [35] Originally by: Ig Neus Edited by: Ig Neus on 16/03/2009 07:53:48A simple scenario where a Deimos is better than a Zealot is HAC 1v1, good luck dealing with the Medium ECM Drones + Deimos firepower. I know that HAC 1v1s are not a common thing but the "there is no case" attitude is provoking me :) Until the Zealot just says "screw this, goodbye", MWDs away, and warps off. That's the nice thing about being able to engage at 20km or more, it's very easy to escape. PS: please learn the definitions of "and" and "or". To be worth flying, the Deimos must be better than BOTH the Zealot AND the Brutix. In that case, the Brutix will do the job just as well, and for less ISK, so the Deimos is useless. Quote: About soloing at low sec and AB on Ishkur, you can kill long range frigates without your blasters and you can get in range of most cruisers by piloting manually, even if they do not suck. After you get there, AB >>> MWD. Still I agree that for gangs, an AF is a heavy tackler that should fit MWD and long range disruptor. No you can not. Long range frigates will laugh as they kill you, and just warp off if they can't for some reason. And cruisers will insta-pop you, good luck piloting manually when you're dead in under ten seconds from the time the cruiser gets a lock on you. Not that there's really anything you can do to fly manually when a ship that's faster than you has pressed the "keep at 20km" button. Quote: Of course, if a decent enemy pilot gets there in anything better than a T1 Cruiser (or even some of them), you will lose. But you will lose no matter what you fit, so your argument is pointless. When soloing you should fit for fights you can actually win. Oh, hey, guess what pirates like to fly: things that are better than T1 cruisers. With a MWD, you can use your superior frigate speed to disengage and warp out with your ship intact, with an AB you just die. -----------
Ig Neus	Posted - 2009.03.16 08:21:00 - [36] Edited by: Ig Neus on 16/03/2009 08:24:10 Quote: Not that there's really anything you can do to fly manually when a ship that's faster than you has pressed the "keep at 20km" button. Fly away in an angle, let him start to close the distance with the MWD on, turn arround and user your overheated AB to catch him. Calculate how much more it takes to a Cruiser with MWD to turn arround and starting moving towards this 20km distance compared to an AB Frigate. Not going to answer to rest of your comments since this gets boring. And if you need MWD to escape HACs ect, learn to use local and scanner. Edit : Can a long range Harpy (that is indeed a great heavy tackler) kill an Ishkur before 5 light drones kill it? I doubt it. Not to mention that the Ishkur can carry ECM hornets (together with its light drones of choice) and disengage (most) long range Frigates at will as well...
Lee Dalton Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.16 08:45:00 - [37] Any T2 ship with a Frigate hull have low SP requirements. AF and Intys are useful in small gangs and solo.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.03.16 16:23:00 - [38] Originally by: Ig Neus Fly away in an angle, let him start to close the distance with the MWD on, turn arround and user your overheated AB to catch him. Calculate how much more it takes to a Cruiser with MWD to turn arround and starting moving towards this 20km distance compared to an AB Frigate. Too bad you died right around the point where you turn around. Hint to the clueless: a zero transversal AF (and you have zero transversal in this little plan of yours) has a lifespan of under ten seconds against a cruiser. Much less against a HAC or BC. Quote: And if you need MWD to escape HACs ect, learn to use local and scanner. And then you never get a target. Hint to the clueless: the HACs, etc, you need to escape don't always show up as a threat until after you've engaged your target. Quote: Can a long range Harpy (that is indeed a great heavy tackler) kill an Ishkur before 5 light drones kill it? I doubt it. Not to mention that the Ishkur can carry ECM hornets (together with its light drones of choice) and disengage (most) long range Frigates at will as well... Yes. Next question? PS: the fact that you're talking about needing to use ECM drones to escape is a concession that the Ishkur loses that fight. When the best you can hope for is that your ECM drones jam the target before you die, I think you're better off fitting the MWD. Quote: Also HAC 1v1 automatically removes Brutix (hint : not HAC) from the choices. I completely agree with you that in most cases you would bring a Deimos, Brutix is about the same and much cheaper. Still there are cases Brutix is too slow. Again, typical example would be soloing in low sec. Brutix will have a harder time escaping many gatecamps that a Deimos can. Last time I checked, we're not in the FFA arenas on SiSi, so bringing a Brutix to a "HAC" fight is perfectly fair. And no, the Deimos is not good for solo in lowsec. Not only do blaster ships suck for solo in lowsec, but who cares if I lose a Brutix to a gatecamp, I can afford to lose three of them for every Deimos loss and still come out ahead. PS: use a scout. Covops alt = no more problems with gatecamps. -----------
Holy Lowlander Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.03.16 16:30:00 - [39] Originally by: Renarla Less than a year old? Interceptors and Covert Ops are very easy to get into. HACs and Recons are great, but they require about a years worth a training for a new character. lol not true. I'm not playing for a full year and I'm confortably flying hacs .... close to commandships now. also have t2 fit bs . so its not that skill intensive at all.
Ig Neus	Posted - 2009.03.16 16:59:00 - [40] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Too bad you died right around the point where you turn around. Hint to the clueless: a zero transversal AF (and you have zero transversal in this little plan of yours) has a lifespan of under ten seconds against a cruiser. Much less against a HAC or BC. And why exactly do I need to stay at 0 transversal for 10 seconds? AFs tend to turn arround faster than Battleships, if you actually flew one without MWD you would know it. Quote: And then you never get a target. Hint to the clueless: the HACs, etc, you need to escape don't always show up as a threat until after you've engaged your target. So we are talking about an invisible HAC that does not appear on scanner yet somehow sees you have engaged something and warps in at the right range to deal with you. Really common. Quote: Yes. Next question? PS: the fact that you're talking about needing to use ECM drones to escape is a concession that the Ishkur loses that fight. When the best you can hope for is that your ECM drones jam the target before you die, I think you're better off fitting the MWD. I seriously doubt it loses it. ECM Drones can be used to escape when you are afraid of backup coming. And when was the last time you checked how often 5 light ECM drones jam a frigate? It is not like I need to hope much :p Quote: Last time I checked, we're not in the FFA arenas on SiSi, so bringing a Brutix to a "HAC" fight is perfectly fair. And no, the Deimos is not good for solo in lowsec. Not only do blaster ships suck for solo in lowsec, but who cares if I lose a Brutix to a gatecamp, I can afford to lose three of them for every Deimos loss and still come out ahead. You asked for a case when Deimos is better than both a Brutix and a Zealot. HAC 1v1 is a case. I do not know about you but I do same ship class 1v1s relatively often at TQ. I have already agreed that in most cases Brutix > Deimos, just cannot stand your generalization. A Deimos can escape most BS gatecamps, a Brutix cannot. Quote: PS: use a scout. Covops alt = no more problems with gatecamps. Or use an alt with a Rifter that is (much) cheaper than the rigs you put on your Harpy alone and have it tackle for you. Now your AF with its AB can solo many HACs and Battlecruisers. Bingo!

Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.03.16 17:14:00 - [41] Originally by: Ig Neus And why exactly do I need to stay at 0 transversal for 10 seconds? AFs tend to turn arround faster than Battleships, if you actually flew one without MWD you would know it. Because you have to: 1) Fly away from the target. Zero transversal. 2) Stop your ship. Zero transversal. 3) Overload AB and fly towards the ship. Zero transversal. And that's assuming you get it on the first try. But nice job sneaking in the battleship comment there, when the previous comments were about cruisers/HACs/BCs. A battleship won't be able to keep an AF at range with zero transversal, but heavy neuts and a huge drone bay mean it doesn't really need to, even ignoring the fact that battleships tend to have friends with them. Quote: So we are talking about an invisible HAC that does not appear on scanner yet somehow sees you have engaged something and warps in at the right range to deal with you. Really common. Hint to the clueless: I am a lowsec pirate. I fly HACs. I have dropped in on plenty of rival pirates who tried to engage a target and didn't see me coming until it was too late. Hint to the clueless, part II: just because you don't see the HAC doesn't mean that the HAC's covops scout hasn't seen you. Hint to the clueless, part III: if you refuse to engage when anyone else is on scan, you will give up a lot of targets. Quote: I seriously doubt it loses it. ECM Drones can be used to escape when you are afraid of backup coming. And when was the last time you checked how often 5 light ECM drones jam a frigate? It is not like I need to hope much :p Like I said, the fact that you keep talking about ECM drones letting you get away should be a hint. Why do you need to escape? Wouldn't it be much better to fit a MWD so you don't get kited and forced to drop ECM drones and run away? I hear it's much more fun when you get the killmail. Quote: You asked for a case when Deimos is better than both a Brutix and a Zealot. HAC 1v1 is a case. I do not know about you but I do same ship class 1v1s relatively often at TQ. I have already agreed that in most cases Brutix > Deimos, just cannot stand your generalization. A Deimos can escape most BS gatecamps, a Brutix cannot. Fine, give me a case that *actually happens in real PvP. Not only do HAC 1v1s really only happen in the SiSi arenas, but a consensual 1v1 duels are not at all the same as real PvP. And as for gatecamps, like I said: even if you don't have a covops scout, who cares if you're more likely to lose the Brutix in a gatecamp, you can afford to buy 3x as many of them. Your losses to gatecamps aren't going to be so frequent that you lose the cost advantage overall. Quote:* Or use an alt with a Rifter that is (much) cheaper than the rigs you put on your Harpy alone and have it tackle for you. Now your AF with its AB can solo many HACs and Battlecruisers. Bingo! Until your Rifter gets insta-popped because you can't manage transversal on both ships at the same time, and then your lol AB setup joins it in death soon after. Of course a Rifter alt is a laughable waste of $15/month, but I guess it's your money to waste... -----------
Spectre3353 Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.03.16 18:17:00 - [42] Oh great, another perfectly good thread derailed by Merin "I AM ALWAYS RIGHTTTTTTTTTTTTTT" Ryskin. You should have a column called "Ask Merin!" in E-ON magazine where people can ask you innocent questions and you can respond with some overblown response about how your specific black-and-white experiences apply to EVERYONE and EVERYTHING in Eve. Seriously though op, as someone who is a little over 12 mil SP and has trained exclusively in Gallente to PvP, I found that starting with Interceptors and T1 Cruisers was the best route early on. AF's are much better now than they were so that might not be a terrible route (but they are a bit expensive for my taste). You are going to get your best bang for your buck by learning skills to support and T2 fit a cruiser over any T2 frigate. If you're further along than that and looking for T2 cruisers to train, Gallente isn't exactly king of the hill but the Ishtar, Arazu and Phobos are all decent ships in one respect or another. ----- My Pirate Blog: http://evenewb.blogspot.com/
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.03.16 18:26:00 - [43] Originally by: Spectre3353 Oh great, another perfectly good thread derailed by Merin "I AM ALWAYS RIGHTTTTTTTTTTTTTT" Ryskin. You should have a column called "Ask Merin!" in E-ON magazine where people can ask you innocent questions and you can respond with some overblown response about how your specific black-and-white experiences apply to EVERYONE and EVERYTHING in Eve. Yes, actually we should have that, it would save me a lot of time if I didn't have to keep writing the same posts over and over again answering the same questions in every thread. Quote: Seriously though op, as someone who is a little over 12 mil SP and has trained exclusively in Gallente to PvP, I found that starting with Interceptors and T1 Cruisers was the best route early on. And this explains it. Gallente are great when you have low SP, since the other races require much higher SP to reach their full effectiveness. The only problem is that Gallente don't really get any better, while the other races take a considerable lead once you have T2 guns/T2 ships/etc. So in exchange for that early payoff, you get stuck with a dead end race in the long run. Quote: If you're further along than that and looking for T2 cruisers to train, Gallente isn't exactly king of the hill but the Ishtar, Arazu and Phobos are all decent ships in one respect or another. Phobos? Decent? Can I have some of what you're smoking? And the Arazu? -----------
Ig Neus	Posted - 2009.03.16 18:35:00 - [44] I had decided to stop arguing with you Merin but Quote: Phobos? Decent? Can I have some of what you're smoking? And the Arazu? Arazu is second best solo recon (after Pilgrim) and it is useful in gangs even if you do not like Dampeners (hint : Faction Scramblers / Disruptors).
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.16 18:40:00 - [45] Originally by: Warrio If you want to be useful to a 0.0 alliance in a recon or HAC then train a falcon. Sure, the Zealot and Vaga are nice for little funtime pointless roaming gangs but in fleet warfare, anything that's not a falcon is second rate. Mate, that's rubbish. Sniper Zealots are GREAT for fleets. Unless you enjoy being bubbled.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.03.16 18:45:00 - [46] Originally by: Ig Neus Arazu is second best solo recon (after Pilgrim) and it is useful in gangs even if you do not like Dampeners (hint : Faction Scramblers / Disruptors). Sure, the Arazu has a bit of a role as a tackler, but that's a very narrow role, and there's a very good reason why "boost Arazu!!!" threads are so popular. As for "second best solo", nice job stating the obvious there. Of the three solo recons, the Arazu is tied for second-best. What amazing praise for the ship... -----------
Tractormech Caldari Fortune's Fools Sherwood Forest	Posted - 2009.03.16 18:52:00 - [47] Edited by: Tractormech on 16/03/2009 18:52:38 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Ig Neus Fly away in an angle, let him start to close the distance with the MWD on, turn arround and user your overheated AB to catch him. Calculate how much more it takes to a Cruiser with MWD to turn arround and starting moving towards this 20km distance compared to an AB Frigate. Too bad you died right around the point where you turn around. Hint to the clueless: a zero transversal AF (and you have zero transversal in this little plan of yours) has a lifespan of under ten seconds against a cruiser. Much less against a HAC or BC. Do you even fly AFs? MWD against cruiser/battlecruisers and up is much more suicidal than a AB, AF's DO NOT TANK WITH SPEED. They can't. Theres no way to get them going fast enough since the speed nerfs. AFs tank with sig radius + high resists. MWD blows up your sig radius that you become missile fodder. They don't recieve a sig radius reduction with MWD. Interceptors do. Interceptors tank with speed. Since the speed changes you have to have maxxed nav skills and a good fit to go even fast enough then to speed tank any high sp gun hac. There are situations where you can use it. Run it on approach only and hope you don't die on the way in then shut it off immediately. But by then the gains arent really any better than an ab. Heavy tackler for inties is an example where it is usable. I cant think of a situation where you will fare better with a MWD than an AB against any cruiser/battlecruiser ship. An ab gets you going over 1km/sec. A MWD will get you go 2km/s + with a giant sig radius and big cap reduction. How do you speed tank anyone at that speed?
Irida Mershkov Gallente Shadowsun Syndicate	Posted - 2009.03.16 18:57:00 - [48] Interceptor, Assault Ship, an EAS is good if you want to try out Ewar too, or a Covert Ops.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.03.16 18:57:00 - [49] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 16/03/2009 18:59:08 Hint for the clueless: the MWD setup has extra speed to use on keeping high transversal, the AB setup does not. At 1km/s with an AB, you have to fly directly at the target to ever get into range (if you can even catch them at all). At 2.5km/s, you can approach at an angle, avoiding the fatal insta-pop scenario. While the AB setup might tank better in a 500m orbit, you can't just assume you're instantly holding an orbit at your preferred range against a non-moving target. Oh, and the other key difference: MWD setups may take more damage, but they take consistent damage. You know exactly how fast you're going down, and can easily judge when it's time to break off and save your ship. The AB setup, while it might sometimes take less damage, tends to insta-pop when it does get hit. -----------
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.03.16 19:22:00 - [50] Originally by: Tractormech I cant think of a situation where you will fare better with a MWD than an AB against any cruiser/battlecruiser ship. An ab gets you going over 1km/sec. A MWD will get you go 2km/s + with a giant sig radius and big cap reduction. How do you speed tank anyone at that speed? In any situation where you land 15 or more km away from your target. Now, granted, smart AF pilot will just warp out instead of getting fried, while MWDing one can actually engage and still win. Now, that said, chances of MWDing AF winning are quite low anyway, atleast vs competent pilot. If you land right on top of cruiser/BC then he'll pop in most cases anyway. Btw, @ Merin. You somehow always like giving examples of how someone uses alt to land on one, hence one's setup/attitude/whatever is wrong. Might think about possibility of AF pilot using covops alt too Now all that said, AFs are quite funny, but still useless in most scenarios. Yes, they're good at popping novice/inexperienced pilots or winning fights where you have all your aces in hands. But well, that's true for any other combat ship Also, stop arguing with Merin, we all know by now that his experience is the only absolute in here

Jofridur	Posted - 2009.03.16 20:03:00 - [51] Tackling and scouting ships. * Interceptors * Covert Ops * Assault Frigates
UMEE Tactical Initiative	Posted - 2009.03.16 20:13:00 - [52] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Spectre3353 Quote: Seriously though op, as someone who is a little over 12 mil SP and has trained exclusively in Gallente to PvP, I found that starting with Interceptors and T1 Cruisers was the best route early on. And this explains it. Gallente are great when you have low SP, since the other races require much higher SP to reach their full effectiveness. The only problem is that Gallente don't really get any better, while the other races take a considerable lead once you have T2 guns/T2 ships/etc. So in exchange for that early payoff, you get stuck with a dead end race in the long run. not true AT ALL. gallente still have the best gank ships. once you have T2 blasters and T2 drones, a vexor can push 700DPS, which is ridiculous. yeah it's paper thin, but it costs 15mill. you can do a similar thing with an Ishtar, but actually have a decent buffer shield tank and an MWD. similarly, the dominix is a ship that gets better and better as you skill up. you just never know what it's gonna pack. gang support, monster tank, or some of highest dps in the game...all on a tier 1 insurable BS. so yes, there's tons of stuff to do with gall in T2. you just have a beef with boats dedicated to blasters. the drone boats and inties to an extent are saving gallente.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.03.16 20:25:00 - [53] Originally by: UMEE not true AT ALL. gallente still have the best gank ships. once you have T2 blasters and T2 drones, a vexor can push 700DPS, which is ridiculous. yeah it's paper thin, but it costs 15mill. you can do a similar thing with an Ishtar, but actually have a decent buffer shield tank and an MWD. And that Vexor is an absolute waste. If you can't afford a BC (which will out-perform that Vexor in every way, for only a small price increase), then you are flying either a Stabber or a Blackbird, period. That Vexor setup is just a good way to quickly lose 15 million ISK. As for the Ishtar, no, it can't. The Ishtar only gets full HAC-level damage with battleship drones and all their tracking issues. While it's far from terrible, those downsides are still enough to make it second-tier. It's definitely not at the level of the Deimos or Muninn, but it also doesn't do OMG AMAZING things like the Zealot, Vagabond or Cerberus. Quote: similarly, the dominix is a ship that gets better and better as you skill up. you just never know what it's gonna pack. gang support, monster tank, or some of highest dps in the game...all on a tier 1 insurable BS. Yes, a point which I granted from the beginning: the Dominix is one of the two truly good Gallente ships. -----------
UMEE Tactical Initiative	Posted - 2009.03.16 21:13:00 - [54] Edited by: UMEE on 16/03/2009 21:16:29 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: UMEE not true AT ALL. gallente still have the best gank ships. once you have T2 blasters and T2 drones, a vexor can push 700DPS, which is ridiculous. yeah it's paper thin, but it costs 15mill. you can do a similar thing with an Ishtar, but actually have a decent buffer shield tank and an MWD. And that Vexor is an absolute waste. If you can't afford a BC (which will out-perform that Vexor in every way, for only a small price increase), then you are flying either a Stabber or a Blackbird, period. That Vexor setup is just a good way to quickly lose 15 million ISK. As for the Ishtar, no, it can't. The Ishtar only gets full HAC-level damage with battleship drones and all their tracking issues. While it's far from terrible, those downsides are still enough to make it second-tier. It's definitely not at the level of the Deimos or Muninn, but it also doesn't do OMG AMAZING things like the Zealot, Vagabond or Cerberus. Quote: similarly, the dominix is a ship that gets better and better as you skill up. you just never know what it's gonna pack. gang support, monster tank, or some of highest dps in the game...all on a tier 1 insurable BS. Yes, a point which I granted from the beginning: the Dominix is one of the two truly good Gallente ships. 700dps for 15mill is not a waste, lol. it is if you go charging in ahead of your gang and get primaried. if you slip into the fray unnoticed, you can probably burn down a HAC before getting popped. Ishtar can pump the same dps with a decent TANK and an MWD. no i wouldnt fit my Ishtar in this way because I dont have the cash, but it packs the best HAC gank. vaga and cerb dont do amazing things. one is a PVE boat, and the other is a cruiser-sized tackler. a sturdy one, but still. oh, and regarding your precious BB and stabber. the BB can be taken down by a bunch of hobgoblins; maybe you'll be able to get out, but you wont be playing support, which defeats your purpose. what can the stabber do? its damage is worse than the vaga's, and if i want a heavy tackler i'll fly an AF for the ~same speed and lower sig radius.
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.03.16 21:30:00 - [55] Train BC 4 and high support/weapon skills before you mess around with T2. If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.


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