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[minor issue] Allow Injecting skills before meeting the pre-reqs

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Wet Ferret	Posted - 2009.03.28 02:46:00 - [31] Edited by: Wet Ferret on 28/03/2009 02:50:09 Quote: transporting skillbooks If you're transporting a skillbook, you're doing it for someone else. This wouldn't change that. Also: jumpclones. Quote: a lot of programming Yeah, somehow I doubt that. Quote: lazy-man effect Kind of like how you were too lazy to come up with a real argument? Quote: Newbie: Look at me ma, I'm injecting Heavy Assault Cruisers Newbie: Omfg, I can't train, PETITION GM : You don't have the pre-reqs, have a nice day. Newbie: What! Why did it let me waste isk to 'inject' the book! Now I'm space poor, and I can't Probably the only valid argument in this thread. Though I have a little bit of faith left in CCP that they haven't gone that soft. Supported for "Why the hell not?" Edited for potentially huge ISK sink. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.03.28 06:15:00 - [32] Originally by: Wet Ferret Edited by: Wet Ferret on 28/03/2009 02:50:09 Quote: lazy-man effect Kind of like how you were too lazy to come up with a real argument? Says the pot calling the kettle black. IT IS A lazy mans feature. And today I Came "that" close to agreeing with you..but your smug-assed remark turned me off. /me thumbs down However ignoring said persons argument... I'm open to injection only under strictest of conditions. Like the fact you can inject based on the fact your going to meet said prereqs within the 24 hour skill queue time. THAT...is rational and sensible. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Aethrwolf Caldari Home for Wayward Gamers	Posted - 2009.03.28 06:26:00 - [33] umm.. NO. dont see the point of injecting a skill you cant train for months. MAYBE if you can only inject a skill that you will be able to train after your current skill ends. Absolutely everything is subjective.
Clansworth Good Rock Materials	Posted - 2009.03.28 10:19:00 - [34] Based on the skill queue being created to allow someone to effectivly train their characters when they can only log on perhaps once a day, at a restricted time, and whereas the inability to inject skills without prereqs prevents this goal from being completely met, i support this idea. There really isn't a bad side to it, other than the confusion that might come from someone injecting a book, and not knowing that that doesn't give them the ability to use it until it's trained. This can be prevented with a simple notification window when injecting a non-pre-reqd skill, informing the player of such. System Influence
Lumtwiss	Posted - 2009.03.29 20:22:00 - [35] Originally by: Clansworth Based on the skill queue being created to allow someone to effectivly train their characters when they can only log on perhaps once a day, at a restricted time, and whereas the inability to inject skills without prereqs prevents this goal from being completely met, i support this idea. There really isn't a bad side to it, other than the confusion that might come from someone injecting a book, and not knowing that that doesn't give them the ability to use it until it's trained. This can be prevented with a simple notification window when injecting a non-pre-reqd skill, informing the player of such. I quote this and remember the Thumbs up !
Montmazar Aliastra	Posted - 2009.03.29 21:28:00 - [36] The concept of a physical skillbook that must be transported makes no sense and adds nothing to the game.
xMishrak	Posted - 2009.03.30 16:25:00 - [37] Edited by: xMishrak on 30/03/2009 16:25:19 Quote: Like the fact you can inject based on the fact your going to meet said prereqs within the 24 hour skill queue time. I figured that this was already implied. If a skill is injected already, I can queue it up until it hits the 24 hour limit. Of course the same would be true with injecting skills based on pre-reqs that are in the process of being trained. Full support here. I was actually a little surprised that they missed this when they implemented the queue.
Yurda Dei Central Logistics and Insider Trading Corp	Posted - 2009.03.30 21:50:00 - [38] Fully support this only if the required prerequisites are already in the training queue.
Caffeine Junkie Atomic Battle Penguins	Posted - 2009.03.31 02:41:00 - [39] /signed Would be very useful with no drawbacks that I can think of.
Arous Drephius Perkone	Posted - 2009.03.31 16:18:00 - [40]
Efrim Black Gallente Apellon	Posted - 2009.03.31 17:53:00 - [41] Edited by: Efrim Black on 31/03/2009 17:56:00 Originally by: Isaac Starstriker No Support. It does add to the lazy man effect. This really shouldn't be too big an issue if your logging on semi-often. Otherwise, you'll need to figure out a new skill to train. --Isaac Plenty of people are signing without reading the counter-arguments. The skill que knocked off most plausible complaints from the skill system. To go this far is just pushing it. The point of not being able to inject the skills before pre-reqs is to facilitate a number of things. 1. The skill stays a physical item until you inject it. This allows you to change your mind and sell it, or lose it - which to me is a fine risk for something you can't use yet anyway. 2. You can't do Physics without Arithmetic. It fine-tunes your skillque to mainly leveling skills you Already have and want to get better in. Which means... 3. You actually have to fraking sign into Eve and change your character sometimes. Not Supported. We have our skill que,lets not get ridiculous. Edit : Originally by: Montmazar The concept of a physical skillbook that must be transported makes no sense and adds nothing to the game. Yeah because Textbooks add nothing to real-life.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.03.31 20:37:00 - [42] I actually bumped againt this the other day. Let me give you the example. I was training Drones V, and knew that immediately following that I was going to train Drone Interfacing 1. So I wait until my Drone V gets down to under 24 hours left - i.e. I actually have room in my skill queue for a new skill. I try and add Drone Interfacing 1. Nope, sorry, no can do. Admittedly, it's a minor annoyance - I just stuck a three hour skill in there, and then waited until Drones 5 completed before I added Drone Interfacing, but it doesn't make much sense to me to have it implemented that way. --Vel Originally by: Tachyon Shade Idealism is what precedes experience. Cynicism is what follows it.
Clansworth Good Rock Materials	Posted - 2009.03.31 21:08:00 - [43] Originally by: Efrim Black 3. You actually have to fraking sign into Eve and change your character sometimes. Except that the REASON CCP stated for the skill queue at all is to allow you to more easily determine what time of day you 'fraking' (?) sign into Eve. System Influence
Efrim Black Gallente Apellon	Posted - 2009.03.31 21:27:00 - [44] Originally by: Clansworth Originally by: Efrim Black 3. You actually have to fraking sign into Eve and change your character sometimes. Except that the REASON CCP stated for the skill queue at all is to allow you to more easily determine what time of day you 'fraking' (?) sign into Eve. And the Skill queuq accomplishes that objective... so what exactly is the purpose for this? Other than to further distance and abstract the skill system. I haven't seen a single logical argument for this implementation, only people who want to manage their characters a little less. If you can't manage your time with a 24 hours queue, plus the ability to tag long skills onto the end of it, then perhaps this isn't the game for you.
Clansworth Good Rock Materials	Posted - 2009.03.31 21:38:00 - [45] Edited by: Clansworth on 31/03/2009 21:38:36 It's more about completing a feature. Yes, the queue DOES let you keep your training time utilized, but it, in some instances, does not allow you to fully maximize your training time. This would get rid of the only hurdle in the way, and with virtually no work required by CCP. I guess I still don't understand the reasons AGAINST this, unless the general population is so used to 'almost complete' features in the game, that the prospect of something being finished is foreign, and frightening. It doesn't really matter either way to me, as I don't think i even HAVE any skills to inject that i don't meet the prereq for, but I still wish to see the game constantly improved. System Influence
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2009.04.01 01:20:00 - [46] Originally by: Efrim Black And the Skill queuq accomplishes that objective... so what exactly is the purpose for this? Other than to further distance and abstract the skill system. I haven't seen a single logical argument for this implementation, only people who want to manage their characters a little less. If you can't manage your time with a 24 hours queue, plus the ability to tag long skills onto the end of it, then perhaps this isn't the game for you. No, it accomplishes that objective most of the time. If you want to train a new skill, it does not. I started a new alt a couple days ago, and had to waste 3 hours training Learning 4 without the benefit of Logic 3 because the skill finished 3 hours before I woke up. I had to train the wrong skill because I wasn't online to switch into the right one. Last I checked, this is exactly what the skill queue is supposed to avoid. Finish the job, put the queue into effect properly, and let us inject skills even if we don't have the reqs. Pop up a warning or whatever, but let us train properly. There should never be any BS associated with this fundamental a part of the game - it should be utterly flawless in terms of letting the player do whatever they want within the rules, and presently there is a large and rather gaping flaw that still exists. It's not as large as the planet-sucking black hole of fail that was the queueless system, but it's still worthy of an improvement. ----- Bloodmoney Incorporated is recruiting!
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.04.01 02:47:00 - [47] Originally by: Efrim Black Edit : Originally by: Montmazar The concept of a physical skillbook that must be transported makes no sense and adds nothing to the game. Yeah because Textbooks add nothing to real-life. You know, I've looked at this four or five times, and it finally hit me what's wrong with this. We can move great hulking battleships lightyears in a flash of light and a couple of seconds, and we still have to put stuff down on paper? Really? Especially since according to the storylines of EVE training is by direct injection of knowledge into the brain. At least call them like datachips or some crap. Books? Honestly? We have laser guns, and we still put vital knowledge down on easily destroyed paper? For that matter, even in the modern world we can send the contents of a book tens of thousands of miles without actually moving the physical book itself. Yet in the era of FTL transport and communication, we have to actually ship the physical vessel of knowledge itself. WTF? --Vel Originally by: Tachyon Shade Idealism is what precedes experience. Cynicism is what follows it.
Ignition SemperFi The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.04.01 04:47:00 - [48] it would be like letting you fit mods to your ship that you didnt have the skills for. i mean, you wouldnt be able to undock, so it should be fine... if this is allowed in any way shape or form... which i hope its not. Then it should have to be only via the queue system and fit within the 24hrs still not supported ---- People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun. Space Vikings
JVol The IMorral MAjority	Posted - 2009.04.01 05:41:00 - [49]
Lagerstars No Limit Productions Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.01 06:19:00 - [50] Could be useful and to prevent too much skillbook injection, why not just only allow skillbooks that only have 1 missing pre-req to be injected or something like that, so you cant just inject a whole bunch up the ladder - like T2 large gunnery skills without having any of the lower skills. Then you could pick up a few useful bits. E.G. You start training Small Spec Blasters and once thats started you can inject the Medium Spec Blasters skill even tho you cant start it but you cant inject the Large Spec skillbook. That kinda thing -----------------------------------------
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2009.04.01 07:29:00 - [51] Originally by: Ignition SemperFi it would be like letting you fit mods to your ship that you didnt have the skills for. i mean, you wouldnt be able to undock, so it should be fine... Actually, if the devs wanted to implement the ability to fit mods you can't use with the caveat that you can't undock until you have the skills for them, I'd probably support that. It'd let you prebuild ships for contracting, test fits you haven't skilled into without needing to install EFT, and do all sorts of other nifty things. It's far lower priority than this change, because it'd likely be harder to implement and it has less overall utility, but yes, I would be in favour of that. Why is it the game's job to make things hard? Everything should be as easy as possible subject to the caveat that everyone has to live within the same rules and you can't cheat on actual gameplay. There's no reason I ought to have to be online to add a skill, and inject-without-prereqs is as easy a way of implementing that as any. To be honest, I don't really care how they implement this feature - add a physical book to the queue, pre-injection, get the book out of your hangar, put isk into the queue and it'll market buy for all I care. The point here is that skilling should be effortless on the player's part - you figure out what you want, tell it to the game, and the game does it for you without screwing you around. Moving skillbooks and alarm-clock skill training aren't fun, they're a stupid, unnecessary burden. It's CCP's job to get rid of that crap and let us play Eve, instead of having to fight with the client to advance our characters. They have a great game, they just need to get all the hilariously bad interface issues out of the way and let us play it. ----- Bloodmoney Incorporated is recruiting!
Jeanine Brown	Posted - 2009.04.01 13:41:00 - [52] Yes please
Efrim Black Gallente Apellon	Posted - 2009.04.01 15:31:00 - [53] Originally by: De'Veldrin Originally by: Efrim Black Edit : Originally by: Montmazar The concept of a physical skillbook that must be transported makes no sense and adds nothing to the game. Yeah because Textbooks add nothing to real-life. You know, I've looked at this four or five times, and it finally hit me what's wrong with this. We can move great hulking battleships lightyears in a flash of light and a couple of seconds, and we still have to put stuff down on paper? Really? Especially since according to the storylines of EVE training is by direct injection of knowledge into the brain. At least call them like datachips or some crap. Books? Honestly? We have laser guns, and we still put vital knowledge down on easily destroyed paper? For that matter, even in the modern world we can send the contents of a book tens of thousands of miles without actually moving the physical book itself. Yet in the era of FTL transport and communication, we have to actually ship the physical vessel of knowledge itself. WTF? Well if you follow that logic to its end, why bother with skill books at all? Why doesn't the skill just get added to your skill tree the moment you buy it. And just sit there until you train it? They need a physical object for it to work in the games economy. That's why. You might also ask why you can trade dirt, hookers, and cigarettes, but you can. I'm out-spoken on this though, so I'll just give up on this one.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.04.01 16:51:00 - [54] Originally by: Efrim Black You might also ask why you can trade dirt, hookers, and cigarettes, but you can. I'm struggling to get what this has to do with the discussion. Information, while it can be rendered in a physical medium, doesn't have to be physical. Ancient civilizations got by without writing anything down for thousands of years. Dirt, on the other hand, isn't really very useful UNLESS it's a real physical object. Consider this: If I showed you pictures of the pages of a book, they have the same value as if I had shown the same pages in a real book. If I showed you pictures of dirt...well...yeah, you'd have pictures of dirt. Not much you can do with those. Anyway, back to the books: The only point I can see to have a skill object is if there are skills that are only available as loot drops or for transport into nullsec where there are no NPC salesmen. And for that matter, you don't even really need them then. Just have the Skill Store part of the NEOCOM - works no matter where you are, as long as you're not inside a WH. Buy a skill, viola, instantly added to your Skill List. Originally by: Efrim Black They need a physical object for it to work in the games economy That's like saying you can't buy music(information) unless you actually sell records (the physical incarnation of that information). Which iTunes proves on a daily basis is dead wrong. --Vel Originally by: Tachyon Shade Idealism is what precedes experience. Cynicism is what follows it.
Efrim Black Gallente Apellon	Posted - 2009.04.01 17:12:00 - [55] Originally by: De'Veldrin The only point I can see to have a skill object is if there are skills that are only available as loot drops or for transport into nullsec where there are no NPC salesmen. And for that matter, you don't even really need them then. Just have the Skill Store part of the NEOCOM - works no matter where you are, as long as you're not inside a WH. Buy a skill, viola, instantly added to your Skill List. Well that would be an interesting idea, but thats not whats being proposed here. Also, the other items I mentioned were to illustrate that even with light travel humans are stupid enough to smoke. Originally by: Efrim Black They need a physical object for it to work in the games economy That's like saying you can't buy music(information) unless you actually sell records (the physical incarnation of that information). Which iTunes proves on a daily basis is dead wrong. I'm not ****ed, I specified the Game's** economy. The current Eve economy operates without ANY non-physical objects. Even plexes can be looted from wrecks. So while your ideas of digital mediums in game are very interesting, I'm struggling to see how this is relevant, since the proposal at hand is "injecting physical skills" into your body before you have the pre-requisites to even learn the information. I don't support it. I feel like the Skill queue is enough. However if you propose the Neocom based Skill trade system I will support it De.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2009.04.01 17:51:00 - [56] Originally by: Efrim Black I'm not ****ed, I specified the Game's** economy. The current Eve economy operates without ANY non-physical objects. Even plexes can be looted from wrecks. So while your ideas of digital mediums in game are very interesting, I'm struggling to see how this is relevant, since the proposal at hand is "injecting physical skills" into your body before you have the pre-requisites to even learn the information. Actually, the Eve economy is based on a non-physical object - the isk. You don't need to move it, it doesn't sit in a hangar, there's no Fort Knox to hold all your gold. You just have it. You can be 10 wormholes out from deepest 0.0, and still transfer isk to a logged-off player in Jita without jumping through any hoops whatsoever. Why can't this be the model for more things? ----- Bloodmoney Incorporated is recruiting!
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2009.04.01 21:22:00 - [57] No support. This change would break sanity check of the whole training system. -- Thanks CCP for cu
Aeon Noblemagus Minmatar Sons Of 0din SCUM.	Posted - 2009.04.25 01:19:00 - [58] i think it should work only if your currently training the prereq on the last level before the new skills. so say im learning skill A to learn skills B i need skill A to lv3 before i can learn skill b i can 'ONLY" inject skill B when skill A is at level 3. i hope that makes sence
Klyria Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2009.04.25 03:51:00 - [59] Can't believe I didn't support this yet.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.04.25 06:27:00 - [60] Black Sun Empire

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