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Freedom: The Myth

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Latex Mistress	Posted - 2004.08.19 10:43:00 - [61] Originally by: Lianhaun And I think there are as many definitions of freedom, reality, thruth and more of those abstract themes as you have have philosophers. Only because Universities preach the gospel of relativism, which flies in the face of the Law of Non-contradiction. Truth by definition is exclusive: if you really believe that freedom has contradicting definitions that are all true, then you need to get out of whatever school you're in. And quickly. If ECM is an act of aggression, why am I not on kill mails?
Latex Mistress	Posted - 2004.08.19 10:43:00 - [62] Originally by: Lianhaun And I think there are as many definitions of freedom, reality, thruth and more of those abstract themes as you have have philosophers. Only because Universities preach the gospel of relativism, which flies in the face of the Law of Non-contradiction. Truth by definition is exclusive: if you really believe that freedom has contradicting definitions that are all true, then you need to get out of whatever school you're in. And quickly. If ECM is an act of aggression, why am I not on kill mails?
Maud Dib	Posted - 2004.08.19 18:11:00 - [63] Freedom in the context you mean is entirely subjective and deeply personal. For example one person may think that freedom mean't not having to work for someone else, among other things, while another person may see freedom as the chance to become successful and have others work for him. Freedom like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I believe the origin of the word means FREE from serfDOM though I could be wrong. I did not double check that.
Maud Dib	Posted - 2004.08.19 18:11:00 - [64] Freedom in the context you mean is entirely subjective and deeply personal. For example one person may think that freedom mean't not having to work for someone else, among other things, while another person may see freedom as the chance to become successful and have others work for him. Freedom like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I believe the origin of the word means FREE from serfDOM though I could be wrong. I did not double check that.
Kaleigh Doyle	Posted - 2004.08.19 18:36:00 - [65] Originally by: Shade Widow Freedom is the ability to do whatever you want. Freedom=Anarchy Hence freedom can not be attained fully otherwise we would all be killing eachother and ext. Anyone else find this statement disturbing? I hope you're wrong if "freedom" breaks out in your neighborhood/area. And does this say something about the nature of people in general? Is this the real reason freedom isn't possible? Glamour Bunnies Entertainment Corporation
Kaleigh Doyle	Posted - 2004.08.19 18:36:00 - [66] Originally by: Shade Widow Freedom is the ability to do whatever you want. Freedom=Anarchy Hence freedom can not be attained fully otherwise we would all be killing eachother and ext. Anyone else find this statement disturbing? I hope you're wrong if "freedom" breaks out in your neighborhood/area. And does this say something about the nature of people in general? Is this the real reason freedom isn't possible? Glamour Bunnies Entertainment Corporation
Latex Mistress	Posted - 2004.08.19 20:49:00 - [67] Originally by: Maud Dib Freedom in the context you mean is entirely subjective and deeply personal. Subjective freedom /= true freedom. If we're talking about subjective freedom, then let's call it that. Otherwise my orig. definition stands. Truth transcends subjectivism. If ECM is an act of aggression, why am I not on kill mails?
Latex Mistress	Posted - 2004.08.19 20:49:00 - [68] Originally by: Maud Dib Freedom in the context you mean is entirely subjective and deeply personal. Subjective freedom /= true freedom. If we're talking about subjective freedom, then let's call it that. Otherwise my orig. definition stands. Truth transcends subjectivism. If ECM is an act of aggression, why am I not on kill mails?
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2004.08.20 11:12:00 - [69] Mel Gibsons notion of freedom is having his balls cut open... Convert Stations
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2004.08.20 11:12:00 - [70] Mel Gibsons notion of freedom is having his balls cut open... Convert Stations
Kees	Posted - 2004.08.20 11:22:00 - [71] Freedom: Everyday I hear a different story People say that you're no good for me So you love another And she's making a fool of you Oh If you love me baby Don't deny it But you left me And tell me I should try it Tell me I'm a baby And I will understand But to know that I'll forgive you Just this once, twice, forever 'Cause baby You could take me to heaven and back Just as long as we're together And you do I don't want your freedom I don't want to play around I don't want nobody's baby Part-time love just brings me down I don't need your freedom Girl all I want right now is you Like a prisoner who has his own key But I can't escape until you love me I just go from day to day Knowing all about the other boys You take my hand and tell me I'm a fool To give you all I do Bet you someday Baby Someone says the same to you But to know that I'll forgive you Just this once, twice, forever 'Cause baby You could take me to heaven and back Just as long as we're together And you do Oh I don't want your freedom I don't want to play around I don't want nobody's baby Part-time love just brings me down I don't need your freedom Girl all I want right now is you But to know that I'll forgive you Just this once, twice, forever 'Cause baby You could take me to heaven and back Just as long as we're together And you do I don't want your freedom I don't need to play around I don't want nobody's baby Part-time love just brings me down I don't want your (I don't want your) I don't want your (I don't want your) I don't want your (I don't want your) I don't want your (I don't want your) Oh... (sorry this isn't in the strictest spirit of the post but I could't resist lightening up a topic that had got very serious and thought provoking) ------------------------------ Refiner, Manufacturer, Researcher, Hunter, Adviser, Hauler, anything but miner!
Kees	Posted - 2004.08.20 11:22:00 - [72] Freedom: Everyday I hear a different story People say that you're no good for me So you love another And she's making a fool of you Oh If you love me baby Don't deny it But you left me And tell me I should try it Tell me I'm a baby And I will understand But to know that I'll forgive you Just this once, twice, forever 'Cause baby You could take me to heaven and back Just as long as we're together And you do I don't want your freedom I don't want to play around I don't want nobody's baby Part-time love just brings me down I don't need your freedom Girl all I want right now is you Like a prisoner who has his own key But I can't escape until you love me I just go from day to day Knowing all about the other boys You take my hand and tell me I'm a fool To give you all I do Bet you someday Baby Someone says the same to you But to know that I'll forgive you Just this once, twice, forever 'Cause baby You could take me to heaven and back Just as long as we're together And you do Oh I don't want your freedom I don't want to play around I don't want nobody's baby Part-time love just brings me down I don't need your freedom Girl all I want right now is you But to know that I'll forgive you Just this once, twice, forever 'Cause baby You could take me to heaven and back Just as long as we're together And you do I don't want your freedom I don't need to play around I don't want nobody's baby Part-time love just brings me down I don't want your (I don't want your) I don't want your (I don't want your) I don't want your (I don't want your) I don't want your (I don't want your) Oh... (sorry this isn't in the strictest spirit of the post but I could't resist lightening up a topic that had got very serious and thought provoking) ------------------------------ Refiner, Manufacturer, Researcher, Hunter, Adviser, Hauler, anything but miner!
Nuala Reece	Posted - 2004.08.20 11:31:00 - [73] Originally by: Kaleigh Doyle Originally by: Shade Widow Freedom is the ability to do whatever you want. Freedom=Anarchy Hence freedom can not be attained fully otherwise we would all be killing eachother and ext. Anyone else find this statement disturbing? Disturbing, no. I find it simplistic and a little flawed. It suggests that what we all want is to kill each other, and this would then be the inevitable result of being free (which state we presumably are considered not to possess at present accounting for the remarkable lack of people currently killing each other all over the world). It equates anarchy with murderous intent, which IMHO, misses out some of the slightly more developed aspects of that political idealogy Some would argue that we already have freedom, by virtue of our conciousness, but give that freedom up to social conditioning which promotes the idea of the need for a ruling elite which the majority must follow. Giving rise to a wide variety of essentially useless rules, laws and taboos. What was that scene from 'K-PAX'? Prot describes his world as having no laws, no rulers etc. The psychiatrist asks, 'but without laws how do people know right from wrong', to which Prot replies 'every child knows right from wrong'. It reminds me of that Aleister Crowley quote - the one that tends to be presented with only the first half because the rest of it challenges us to rethink the generally promoted picture of him as an evil and dangerous man. As well as considering the role of personal responsibility in the exercise of our own freedom. (The one thing those ruling elites really don't want to see is a populace thinking for themselves about their own responsibilty rather than just accepting what we're told to be responsible for). "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." which is completed by "Love is the Law, Love under Will." Not that the man himself necessarily lived up to his ideals. But the idea still seems sound. Be Free Freelancing Corp
Nuala Reece	Posted - 2004.08.20 11:31:00 - [74] Originally by: Kaleigh Doyle Originally by: Shade Widow Freedom is the ability to do whatever you want. Freedom=Anarchy Hence freedom can not be attained fully otherwise we would all be killing eachother and ext. Anyone else find this statement disturbing? Disturbing, no. I find it simplistic and a little flawed. It suggests that what we all want is to kill each other, and this would then be the inevitable result of being free (which state we presumably are considered not to possess at present accounting for the remarkable lack of people currently killing each other all over the world). It equates anarchy with murderous intent, which IMHO, misses out some of the slightly more developed aspects of that political idealogy Some would argue that we already have freedom, by virtue of our conciousness, but give that freedom up to social conditioning which promotes the idea of the need for a ruling elite which the majority must follow. Giving rise to a wide variety of essentially useless rules, laws and taboos. What was that scene from 'K-PAX'? Prot describes his world as having no laws, no rulers etc. The psychiatrist asks, 'but without laws how do people know right from wrong', to which Prot replies 'every child knows right from wrong'. It reminds me of that Aleister Crowley quote - the one that tends to be presented with only the first half because the rest of it challenges us to rethink the generally promoted picture of him as an evil and dangerous man. As well as considering the role of personal responsibility in the exercise of our own freedom. (The one thing those ruling elites really don't want to see is a populace thinking for themselves about their own responsibilty rather than just accepting what we're told to be responsible for). "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." which is completed by "Love is the Law, Love under Will." Not that the man himself necessarily lived up to his ideals. But the idea still seems sound. Be Free Freelancing Corp
Majodach	Posted - 2004.08.20 13:01:00 - [75] Can freedom exist for anyone when we live in a society like today? Isn't freedom now just the possibility to choose between the options that are made available to us? If so, freedom can be measured in a relative value and the person with the most freedom is the person that has the most options to choose from. Do not adjust your mind - it is reality that is malfunctioning.
Majodach	Posted - 2004.08.20 13:01:00 - [76] Can freedom exist for anyone when we live in a society like today? Isn't freedom now just the possibility to choose between the options that are made available to us? If so, freedom can be measured in a relative value and the person with the most freedom is the person that has the most options to choose from. Do not adjust your mind - it is reality that is malfunctioning.
Nebulous	Posted - 2004.08.21 07:09:00 - [77] freedom is a bull**** word, your only free to do as your government says so. As long as the the world revolves around money and power no one will be free.
Nebulous	Posted - 2004.08.21 07:09:00 - [78] freedom is a bull**** word, your only free to do as your government says so. As long as the the world revolves around money and power no one will be free.
Mi Canio	Posted - 2004.08.21 12:54:00 - [79] Originally by: Kees Freedom: Everyday I hear a different story People say that you're no good for me So you love another And she's making a fool of you etc etc..... LOL - brilliant, first time I ever seen Wham! quoted on these forums.... Ensign Mi Canio - MIL Div. - Combat Air Patrol
Mi Canio	Posted - 2004.08.21 12:54:00 - [80] Originally by: Kees Freedom: Everyday I hear a different story People say that you're no good for me So you love another And she's making a fool of you etc etc..... LOL - brilliant, first time I ever seen Wham! quoted on these forums.... Ensign Mi Canio - MIL Div. - Combat Air Patrol
Anatolius	Posted - 2004.08.22 00:34:00 - [81] Originally by: PaulAtreides This word, I find, has absolutly no real meaning. What is "it"? From what I understand it is a concept developed by people in the hopes of making you believe that in a 'different' situation you somehow don't have control over your own life. This in turn supposedly makes you feel gratified with your lot. Your Thoughts. It's nothing that needs debating by fat bespectacled men who are blowing smoke out of their arses, err, pipes. Absolute freedom is just that. If I have absolute freedom, and I want to, I can run up to you and beat you to death with a tire iron. Your own absolute (or unabsolute) freedom is of no concern to me. Morality has nothing to do with absolute freedom. If I shouldn't kill you because it's "wrong", if I cannot kill you without being punished by society, my freedom is not absolute. Naturally, absolute freedom does not scale well beyond a single person. Thus the reason civilizations limit freedoms - when any random person can do anything they want, including making the streets run red with the blood of the nonbelievers, well.. You don't have a civilization. With that in mind, unabsolute freedom, with regard to the limits of civilizations, is a rather nebulous concept. I can't walk down the street with an open beer in my hand. What the hell is that? However, I can stand on the street corner and insist that a certain European dictator from last century is the greatest thing since sliced bread. (Which I don't believe that, but I am free to insist I do.) Depending on where you live, you might be put away for doing so. Which of us are more 'free'? With regard to freedom and absolute control of one's own life, that's an absolute farce. No one ever has absolute control over one's own life. Starting from the moment you're born - did you choose to be born? Religious fantasies aside, absolute control is already nullified right there. --- Having recently acquired a lab slot (thank you, rental bug), I wholeheartily concur, there's absolutely no problem with lab slots!
Anatolius	Posted - 2004.08.22 00:34:00 - [82] Originally by: PaulAtreides This word, I find, has absolutly no real meaning. What is "it"? From what I understand it is a concept developed by people in the hopes of making you believe that in a 'different' situation you somehow don't have control over your own life. This in turn supposedly makes you feel gratified with your lot. Your Thoughts. It's nothing that needs debating by fat bespectacled men who are blowing smoke out of their arses, err, pipes. Absolute freedom is just that. If I have absolute freedom, and I want to, I can run up to you and beat you to death with a tire iron. Your own absolute (or unabsolute) freedom is of no concern to me. Morality has nothing to do with absolute freedom. If I shouldn't kill you because it's "wrong", if I cannot kill you without being punished by society, my freedom is not absolute. Naturally, absolute freedom does not scale well beyond a single person. Thus the reason civilizations limit freedoms - when any random person can do anything they want, including making the streets run red with the blood of the nonbelievers, well.. You don't have a civilization. With that in mind, unabsolute freedom, with regard to the limits of civilizations, is a rather nebulous concept. I can't walk down the street with an open beer in my hand. What the hell is that? However, I can stand on the street corner and insist that a certain European dictator from last century is the greatest thing since sliced bread. (Which I don't believe that, but I am free to insist I do.) Depending on where you live, you might be put away for doing so. Which of us are more 'free'? With regard to freedom and absolute control of one's own life, that's an absolute farce. No one ever has absolute control over one's own life. Starting from the moment you're born - did you choose to be born? Religious fantasies aside, absolute control is already nullified right there. --- Having recently acquired a lab slot (thank you, rental bug), I wholeheartily concur, there's absolutely no problem with lab slots!
Inanna	Posted - 2004.08.22 06:55:00 - [83] Originally by: Shade Widow Freedom is the ability to do whatever you want. Freedom=Anarchy Hence freedom can not be attained fully otherwise we would all be killing eachother and ext. How do you know? Have we actually had freedom before? Forgive me cause I am assumeing a bit from your post, but If Civilization means no absolute freedom, then how do you know that we would kill each other in a true anarchy? For all of human recorded history, there has been no such thing. And because we have not had freedom in 6000 years, mabee the physcological prison we live in deludes us into believeing that we need societal structure and governing bodies that we have now to take us to the promise land.
Inanna	Posted - 2004.08.22 06:55:00 - [84] Originally by: Shade Widow Freedom is the ability to do whatever you want. Freedom=Anarchy Hence freedom can not be attained fully otherwise we would all be killing eachother and ext. How do you know? Have we actually had freedom before? Forgive me cause I am assumeing a bit from your post, but If Civilization means no absolute freedom, then how do you know that we would kill each other in a true anarchy? For all of human recorded history, there has been no such thing. And because we have not had freedom in 6000 years, mabee the physcological prison we live in deludes us into believeing that we need societal structure and governing bodies that we have now to take us to the promise land.
Inanna	Posted - 2004.08.22 07:01:00 - [85] Woops sorry. For the topic of the post, I would agree with Paul, accept whoever invented it for that purpose accidentally allowed for an important tangent concept to be extrapolated from for those who believe and wonder. Freedom is a concept higher than divinity and the individual only has but realise that he has it at all times. Freedom is not something that is fought for because everyone possesses it.
Inanna	Posted - 2004.08.22 07:01:00 - [86] Woops sorry. For the topic of the post, I would agree with Paul, accept whoever invented it for that purpose accidentally allowed for an important tangent concept to be extrapolated from for those who believe and wonder. Freedom is a concept higher than divinity and the individual only has but realise that he has it at all times. Freedom is not something that is fought for because everyone possesses it.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.08.22 07:38:00 - [87] Freedom is being able to wear pink and yellow polka dot boxer shorts whenever I like. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.08.22 07:38:00 - [88] Freedom is being able to wear pink and yellow polka dot boxer shorts whenever I like. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Alexis Machine	Posted - 2004.08.22 08:03:00 - [89] Freedom is the inability to see your own restrictions and limitations. ----------------sig---------------------------- Dtai'kai'-dte sa-de nau'gkon dtain'aun bpi-de. if you don't wake up, i'll have to stop kissing you. all that flailing has made you sleepy. you rest while i untie you. stay here until they find you. My hand made mannequin. i won't let them get you. they'll know you're mine by the fingerprints on your throat. isn't she lovely? isn't she wonderful? like the *****s that we are, swatting flies from the wounds we design.
Alexis Machine	Posted - 2004.08.22 08:03:00 - [90] Freedom is the inability to see your own restrictions and limitations. ----------------sig---------------------------- Dtai'kai'-dte sa-de nau'gkon dtain'aun bpi-de. if you don't wake up, i'll have to stop kissing you. all that flailing has made you sleepy. you rest while i untie you. stay here until they find you. My hand made mannequin. i won't let them get you. they'll know you're mine by the fingerprints on your throat. isn't she lovely? isn't she wonderful? like the *****s that we are, swatting flies from the wounds we design.

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