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Enkindu
Gallente Seneca Federation
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Posted - 2009.03.18 14:21:00 -
[1]
Exploration has been my favorite activity in eve pretty much since it was introduced. Made a good "living" in eve with it and had a lot of fun.
At first I loved the new probing mechanic and I got quite proficient with it quickly.
Now, however, I have quite unexpectedly "hit a wall" and all of a sudden I find exploration to be tedious and boring. This surprised me because I'd been quite excited for all of the changes in Apocrypha. I can't even put my finger on why I feel this way, but exploration used to feel fun and now it just seems tedious.
Those really hard sigs used to give a real "Eureka!" moment when you nailed them down.. know you know pretty much where everything is... it's just a process of working through the same "scan, move the probes" procedure. Once you've learned the interface it's about as fulfilling aa working on an assembly line.
I know CCP put a hell of alot of effort into the expansion and they really made some impressive changes to the game, so I feel crappy saying anything negative.. but the simple truth is that something that has brought me hundreds of hours of enjoyment is basically gone.
Yes I know the new interface is much more interactive and requires player "skill" etc, but somehow it just isn't fun (I shouldn't have to add the phrase "in my opinion" because it should be understood, but with all the asshats in the eve-o forums I know I better tack it on).
Maybe I'm just suffering "eve fatigue" and all I need is a break. That's what I'm hoping anyway. I'm getting my toons ready to mothball for a few months.
Any other long time exploration fans out there feeling like I am?
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Zantei
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Posted - 2009.03.18 15:19:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Zantei on 18/03/2009 15:21:49
I'm actually new to exploration.
It really does feel like an assembly line affair sometimes. :[
What bothers me is that as a combat character I can't seem to find any content through exploration?
I fly about in my ishtar with some sisters core probes and everything I find is either a wormhole or a grav site. I've killed god knows how many pirate encounters and only had 1 escalation (though the reward was nice for that one). I want to find a plex every now and then but they're so rare I might just stop looking.
I'll start to go only for the stuff which shows up 100% with one probe.
Edit: To begin with it was a lot of fun, but after finding so many wormholes I don't even bother trying to narrow anything down anymore. You need 75% sig strength before you can tell a plex apart from a wormhole, that's too damn harsh.
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Thenoran
Caldari Tranquility Industries
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Posted - 2009.03.18 15:26:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Zantei You need 75% sig strength before you can tell a plex apart from a wormhole, that's too damn harsh.
Before Apocrypha you had to warp to the site before you could find out what it was, so really there's nothing to complain about when it takes <10 minutes to get a 75% signature. ------------------------ Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
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Zantei
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Posted - 2009.03.18 15:30:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Thenoran
Originally by: Zantei You need 75% sig strength before you can tell a plex apart from a wormhole, that's too damn harsh.
Before Apocrypha you had to warp to the site before you could find out what it was, so really there's nothing to complain about when it takes <10 minutes to get a 75% signature.
Well, as I said, I'm new to exploration and having to move spheres about again and again gets really repetitive. I wouldn't mind if I knew that there was a chance of finding something useful but there never is (for me). Maybe I'll invest in hacking skills.
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VJ Maverick
Splinter Cell Alfa
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Posted - 2009.03.18 15:54:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Thenoran
Originally by: Zantei You need 75% sig strength before you can tell a plex apart from a wormhole, that's too damn harsh.
Before Apocrypha you had to warp to the site before you could find out what it was, so really there's nothing to complain about when it takes <10 minutes to get a 75% signature.
This is not true. You had to warp to the site to know "exactly" what it was by name. But you knew from your very first scan whether you were looking at a Radar, Mag, Grav, etc. -------- [ |
Lysianna
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.18 15:55:00 -
[6]
Exploration is not as fun because now everyone can do it. All the months of training are now worth nothing, all the unique tricks, skills and knowledge are now worth nothing. It's a great new system but it removes the exclusivity.
It's not a bad thing but it could have remained complicated like before. ________________________________________________ Lysianna Hazumason Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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digital0verdose
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.18 16:13:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lysianna Exploration is not as fun because now everyone can do it. All the months of training are now worth nothing, all the unique tricks, skills and knowledge are now worth nothing. It's a great new system but it removes the exclusivity.
It's not a bad thing but it could have remained complicated like before.
Once the hoopla over the new execution wears down, there will be a lot fewer people doing it simply because it doesn't pay out which will leave all the old explorers free to do what they did with a relatively small number of people competing.
In a game like this is surprises me how little patience people have.
We could keep talking about this all day but you're too busy reading my sig instead.
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Zantei
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Posted - 2009.03.18 16:17:00 -
[8]
I understand the need to keep some content exclusive to people who have trained up the skills. I loved treasure hunting in Ultima Online (back in the old days), you needed cartography skills, a shovel, a boat in some cases, experience etc...
There should definitely be content meant for those who have invested points in training the appropriate skills. My only gripe is that as a combat character I am being kept from what I want. ;]
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2009.03.18 17:09:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Zantei
Originally by: Thenoran
Originally by: Zantei You need 75% sig strength before you can tell a plex apart from a wormhole, that's too damn harsh.
Before Apocrypha you had to warp to the site before you could find out what it was, so really there's nothing to complain about when it takes <10 minutes to get a 75% signature.
Well, as I said, I'm new to exploration and having to move spheres about again and again gets really repetitive. I wouldn't mind if I knew that there was a chance of finding something useful but there never is (for me). Maybe I'll invest in hacking skills.
Try throwing a probe out sitting and waiting for a 270 sec( and thats with good skills and a rigged buzzard non skilled could take over 500 sec)countdown... warping to every planet setting out a probe making sure none overlap scanning another 270 rinse and repeat. the "pros" actually recommended reading a book or watching a dvd while probing as it was extremely tedious
i think the new system seems like an assembly line because of its speed but as someone who used the old method extensively, the new system is MUCH better.
The new system is needed too as scanning using the old method in WH space would be a nightmare. i rather be able to scan down 4-10 sites in an hour and have it seem tedious than to scan down 1 site in 2 hours. i get enjoyment out of running the sites not watching the countdown timer.
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2009.03.18 17:18:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Zantei I understand the need to keep some content exclusive to people who have trained up the skills. I loved treasure hunting in Ultima Online (back in the old days), you needed cartography skills, a shovel, a boat in some cases, experience etc...
There should definitely be content meant for those who have invested points in training the appropriate skills. My only gripe is that as a combat character I am being kept from what I want. ;]
the skills invested in exploring do help i have decent skills in exploration. using my drake to find sites takes longer to get green than using my buzzard. i can cut the time in 1/2 using a buzzard. So to me those skills arent wasted. it requires less effort to get to the good sites using the buzzard so i take it in first and BM all the sites.
typicall the drake only has a probe launcher for:
1) if my exit closes so i can scan out a new one
2) to scan anomolies to hit before i leave.
typically the better the site( more reward) the harder it is to scan down. so scanning skills do come into play. they just arent as noticable as before.
If you want the good sites put some trains in exploration. it is well worth it in the long run if exploration is going to be something you do normally.
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Kashre
Minmatar Imperium Technologies Sangre Azul
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Posted - 2009.03.18 17:22:00 -
[11]
When multispec probes first came out, I messed around a little bit with exploration... and what I discovered was that I'd rather go play WOW than deal with that. The new execution of exploration though actually made it accessible, without, I think, making *too* easy.
Besides, the exploration part isn't the important part of Apocrypha. Personally, I think that the important part is that now 0.0 space (of sorts) is also accessible to pretty much anyone, not just the mega-alliances that hoard all the lucrative 0.0 for themselves. Complete with dangerous spawns, no concord, and the ability to get ganked if you're not paying attention. Exploration is now just the tip of that iceberg, instead of a niche game mechanic that only 1 in a 1000 players has the patience to deal with.
+++ "Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa |
Gaius Aemilius
Wormhole-space Surveying and Exploitation
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Posted - 2009.03.18 17:22:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Zantei I understand the need to keep some content exclusive to people who have trained up the skills. I loved treasure hunting in Ultima Online (back in the old days), you needed cartography skills, a shovel, a boat in some cases, experience etc...
Fascinating analogy. As the once-GM of THB on Siege Perilous I totally get the analogy, and think it's pretty solid.
I think this is similar to the effect that occurred when treasure-hunting was made easier by the creation of player libraries of the treasure sites. Prior to that you had to do serious searching, and sometimes it took a bloody long while. After the libraries were created treasure-hunting became much more "industrial": find the site, open a gate to it, get your crew to deal w. the initial guards, then stir the chest for more spawn.
It lost a lot of the feel of a treasure hunt prior to that period.
I think what we're seeing is something similar with regards to the explorers. However, unlike UO, they've given us wormholes to try to not debuff the explorer profession quite so much.
But damn, nice analogy.
(The entity once known as Lindisfarne [THB] on Siege Perilous) Wormholes ate my sig.
They said it was yummy. |
Dohl Khrensen
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.18 17:31:00 -
[13]
I disagree with the OP.
I've been doing exploration on and off since it launched, with a couple of periods of doing it at my sole method of making ISK, and I have to say that I enjoy the new scanning mechanics infinitely more than the old scanning mechanics. I'd much rather go through the 'scan, move the probes procedure' than 'place probes, scan, wait 2.5-60 minutes for any kind of hit while alt-tabbed procedure.'
Sure, with the new system, all those clever bookmarks you made that were 4.0001 AU away from your next quest probe are useless, and the tricks you developed for getting hits (though any tricks I developed were pure guesswork due to the chance-based old system) are obsolete.
However, this new system has a whole new skill-set to master and new tricks to develop. How about interpreting the new scan results from a single long range probe and being able to zero in on a sig's location within 4AU with one glance? Or using logic and reason to pick the true sig from the echo? Or using an unorthodox technique to find that one Radar site 0.5AU from 3 Gravs and a wormhole? I prefer my 'Eureka!' moments to be due to some talent I've displayed, not because I rolled 67 on a hundred-face die. I'll limit my chance-based disappointments to empty Radar and Mag cans, thank you very much.
I'm having a good time with the system. I like having to spend the time finding sigs, even if you do have to spend more time on types of sigs you aren't interested in, rather than large chunks of time finding nothing when you know something is there. Now when you explore a system you actually have to explore a system; not glance at it and move along.
The interface is still a bit clunky, and exploring with bloom turned on is almost blinding on my system, but all in all I think that the exploration process has been buffed in practically every way.
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Tornim
Minmatar HeXstoof Mortal Destruction
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Posted - 2009.03.18 17:41:00 -
[14]
I'm not saying the old way of scanning was perfect, but it was more like "exploration".
If you knew a site was in a system, you wouldn't be guaranteed to find it. You had to have a lot of skill and exp to setup good probe coverage. And then you had to be lucky to even get a hit with good coverage.
This lead to a mystique with exploration. Where a few hours of scanning could bring great riches or fail terribly.
Now a days, if there is a site in a system you are guaranteed to find it. 100% no chance to fail. It will just time until have the sig str tracked down fully. And tracking it down now doesnt require planning, or proper probe coverage. Just spam probes and move them where they need to be.
No randomness, no elusiveness, nothing that makes scanning an actual challenge. They basically took the thinking aspect out of the process.
Welcome to Fisher Price My First Scanning (TM)
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Zantei
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Posted - 2009.03.18 17:51:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Zantei on 18/03/2009 17:51:33 I played UO on the atlantic server before trammel, some of my best times were spent fishing up treasure. :]
Exploration in eve is definitely more fun than it once was, considering this is the most I've used the mechanic. I plan to invest more points in exploration skills to get the most out of it.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.03.18 17:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Tornim I'm not saying the old way of scanning was perfect, but it was more like "exploration".
If you knew a site was in a system, you wouldn't be guaranteed to find it. You had to have a lot of skill and exp to setup good probe coverage. And then you had to be lucky to even get a hit with good coverage.
This lead to a mystique with exploration. Where a few hours of scanning could bring great riches or fail terribly.
Now a days, if there is a site in a system you are guaranteed to find it. 100% no chance to fail. It will just time until have the sig str tracked down fully. And tracking it down now doesnt require planning, or proper probe coverage. Just spam probes and move them where they need to be.
No randomness, no elusiveness, nothing that makes scanning an actual challenge. They basically took the thinking aspect out of the process.
Welcome to Fisher Price My First Scanning (TM)
Well you're wrong about one thing. There's plenty of sites that a low-skilled player will "fail" to find infinitely. There is a certain scan STR needed for many of the higher-end sites.
So while the 'player skill' may have been trivialized, the character skill is still very relevant.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Dohl Khrensen
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.18 18:25:00 -
[17]
The Ferret is right. There is still plenty of chances for failure in the new scanning system, and as I stated in my above post, there are still plenty of new 'player skills' to develop to find sigs faster, or even get good hits on some of them.
There are plenty of 'what am I doing wrong?' posts and 'Why can't I find an exit?' posts on these forums and in the Exploration channel in-game, not because they are doing anything wrong but strictly because their skills, both player and character, are not high enough or honed enough. It may be easy for you (as you said, you've been doing this for awhile and probably have great skills and equipment) but its not easy for everyone.
No randomness: that's a good thing. No elusiveness: that's just not true in my experience.
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Kalenia Rostok
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Posted - 2009.03.18 19:08:00 -
[18]
Once you get mediocre skills, there's no chance of failing to scan down even the hardest of spots. The old way was boring, but it certainly gave you a reason to up your skills. Now its just "move the pyramid of probes around the dot".
Eve needs to learn "interactive" is not moving ships or probes. I'd like something like the sonar displays on subs, to try to figure out what is where visually, rather than some mathematical formula followed by some frustrating UI manipulation.
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Tornim
Minmatar HeXstoof Mortal Destruction
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Posted - 2009.03.18 19:53:00 -
[19]
i agree that a lot of new explorers will get lost or give up on the process. And eventually, over a few weeks or a month that will thin out the herd. which will be good.
on the other hand, i have players in my corp completely new to scanning, with the bare minimum of skills pull sites down almost as fast as me. and that's only cause they don't have the scanning exp and i don't want to share *ALL* my tricks ;)
and NO ONE has to fly dedicated scanning ships. I'm able to pull all sites with a mining cruiser or a Sleeper-fit BS just as easily. sure you might get a scan quicker, but all ur saving is a few minutes as a non-scanning ship only has to bring the probes one step closer and down in size and its done.
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rofflesausage
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Posted - 2009.03.18 20:39:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Thenoran
Originally by: Zantei You need 75% sig strength before you can tell a plex apart from a wormhole, that's too damn harsh.
Before Apocrypha you had to warp to the site before you could find out what it was, so really there's nothing to complain about when it takes <10 minutes to get a 75% signature.
wut? The very first probe you should have dropped (multispec) told you the site type.
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Morberi
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Posted - 2009.03.18 20:42:00 -
[21]
Is this a sign that the masses will start stopping their plexing rampage? Thank the heavens
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Dohl Khrensen
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.18 20:57:00 -
[22]
Originally by: rofflesausage
Originally by: Thenoran
Originally by: Zantei You need 75% sig strength before you can tell a plex apart from a wormhole, that's too damn harsh.
Before Apocrypha you had to warp to the site before you could find out what it was, so really there's nothing to complain about when it takes <10 minutes to get a 75% signature.
wut? The very first probe you should have dropped (multispec) told you the site type.
I think they were talking about 'unknown' sigs. With the old system, you knew there was an unknown in system, but you had no idea what kind of plex it was until you could warp directly to it, i.e. 100% accuracy. Now, you know at 25% that it is an unknown, and at 75% you know exactly what type it is.
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Trebor Notlimah
Lone Star EVE Group Veni Vidi Vici
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Posted - 2009.03.18 20:57:00 -
[23]
To me, it went from an actual mini-profession to more of a hobby.
Instead of having to have the patience, skills, bookmarks, equipment, implants, and in depth knowledge of the old probe system, people can go out and find sites with little of the mentioned above. Fifteen minutes of forum reading and playing with the new probe system and anyone can be a qualified 'explorer'
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Celia Therone
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Posted - 2009.03.18 21:19:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Celia Therone on 18/03/2009 21:19:25 I think that the facet of new exploration that I like least is how much it insists (in hi sec at least) that you play in huge blocks of time.
It can take several hours to track down a suitably empty wormhole, scan down all the sites, switch out to the appropriate ship/setup and run the site.
In high sec at least the wormholes go away within a day so you can't log out and come back the next day without having to start again. If you stay in the wormhole then you face a long treck home.
Having site labels stay through log offs (so you don't have to bookmark everything manually) and have wormholes last a couple of days (like old style exploration sites used to last 3 days) would help a little I think.
I'm undecided on the new scanning system. It's certainly more fun in the short term, but it also seems to have adopted a certain repetitive strain mechanic that seems like it'll get old pretty quickly given how many sites you have to track down.
The old system was really boring but it required so little attention that you could do things productively out of game.
The new system lets you find things much faster but most of the things that you find are junk and it requires 100% of your attention to find them. So it actually wastes a lot more of your attention span.
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Rainhailer
Gallente Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.03.18 21:53:00 -
[25]
New system is more fun for me because it is easier to find sites, and more skill/common sense based than luck/randomly based.
While it may be repetitive, I get enjoyment out of timing how long it takes to find sites and competing with myself to get as low of a time as possible.
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Revez
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Posted - 2009.03.18 23:31:00 -
[26]
I've been bouncing around between probing with my Helios and probing with my Ishtar since the release and the only real difference I've found is how few sites I'm finding these days.
I grabbed a handful of explore skills at low ranks on my alt and found pretty much the same. So I'm a bit miffed at how much train time I've wasted becoming a high-skill explorer.
Overall though the blush hasn't worn off yet and I'm much happier playing with probe positions than I was with pressing the scan again button over and over while I watch a movie.
Oh, and since I don't have a regular group which can run W-space and I'm too much of a paranoid freak to run any w-space stuff by myself... I find that wormholes are just one more thing to find, reducing the chances of finding something I'm looking for (anything but a mining site. I can fight, hack, whatever).
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glassmanipulator
Lucian Alliance Arcane Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.18 23:47:00 -
[27]
Edited by: glassmanipulator on 18/03/2009 23:47:48
Originally by: Tornim I'm not saying the old way of scanning was perfect, but it was more like "exploration".
If you knew a site was in a system, you wouldn't be guaranteed to find it. You had to have a lot of skill and exp to setup good probe coverage. And then you had to be lucky to even get a hit with good coverage.
This lead to a mystique with exploration. Where a few hours of scanning could bring great riches or fail terribly.
Now a days, if there is a site in a system you are guaranteed to find it. 100% no chance to fail. It will just time until have the sig str tracked down fully. And tracking it down now doesnt require planning, or proper probe coverage. Just spam probes and move them where they need to be.
No randomness, no elusiveness, nothing that makes scanning an actual challenge. They basically took the thinking aspect out of the process.
Welcome to Fisher Price My First Scanning (TM)
I couldn't agree with this more. Exploration took patience and skill before.. Now its just hello kitty spam. I was shocked too see how fast I found a 10/10 plex with the new mechanic.. Before you could spend 2+ hours scanning a 10/10.. Looking for a .025 quest hit. Not that that's fun persay, but at least it kept everyone else from finding it. The uber uber sigs really took time and skills to find. I feel most of the skills are now irrelevant, as people are finding the very high end sites way too fast.
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rofflesausage
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Posted - 2009.03.19 00:31:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Dohl Khrensen
Originally by: rofflesausage
Originally by: Thenoran
Originally by: Zantei You need 75% sig strength before you can tell a plex apart from a wormhole, that's too damn harsh.
Before Apocrypha you had to warp to the site before you could find out what it was, so really there's nothing to complain about when it takes <10 minutes to get a 75% signature.
wut? The very first probe you should have dropped (multispec) told you the site type.
I think they were talking about 'unknown' sigs. With the old system, you knew there was an unknown in system, but you had no idea what kind of plex it was until you could warp directly to it, i.e. 100% accuracy. Now, you know at 25% that it is an unknown, and at 75% you know exactly what type it is.
I'm not being rude when I ask this but did you ever do exploration? This couldn't be more wrong.
You dropped a multispec and it told you what was in the system with 100% accuracy on the site type.
Even when talking about 'unknown' sites - it was either a combat site, combat with escalation, or a combat with a DED reward. Either way you had to simply blow stuff up.
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Enkindu
Gallente Seneca Federation
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Posted - 2009.03.19 02:08:00 -
[29]
Originally by: glassmanipulator Edited by: glassmanipulator on 18/03/2009 23:47:48
Originally by: Tornim I'm not saying the old way of scanning was perfect, but it was more like "exploration".
If you knew a site was in a system, you wouldn't be guaranteed to find it. You had to have a lot of skill and exp to setup good probe coverage. And then you had to be lucky to even get a hit with good coverage.
This lead to a mystique with exploration. Where a few hours of scanning could bring great riches or fail terribly.
Now a days, if there is a site in a system you are guaranteed to find it. 100% no chance to fail. It will just time until have the sig str tracked down fully. And tracking it down now doesnt require planning, or proper probe coverage. Just spam probes and move them where they need to be.
No randomness, no elusiveness, nothing that makes scanning an actual challenge. They basically took the thinking aspect out of the process.
Welcome to Fisher Price My First Scanning (TM)
I couldn't agree with this more. Exploration took patience and skill before.. Now its just hello kitty spam. I was shocked too see how fast I found a 10/10 plex with the new mechanic.. Before you could spend 2+ hours scanning a 10/10.. Looking for a .025 quest hit. Not that that's fun persay, but at least it kept everyone else from finding it. The uber uber sigs really took time and skills to find. I feel most of the skills are now irrelevant, as people are finding the very high end sites way too fast.
Exactly. Glad I'm not alone. Hardest sig I've found yet (top end sleeper radar site) took me less than 4 minutes to get to 100%.
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demonfurbie
Minmatar Covert-Nexus Dark Cadre
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Posted - 2009.03.19 02:30:00 -
[30]
ive been an explorer for quite some time (exploration release) and i have to say i do like some of the changes. it requires some player skill not just sp skill may be just not enough player skill.
i dont like the fact there is no real multi probe to tell me what is in the system before i start out.
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