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Novelty 's worn off.. exploration just isn't as enjoyable..

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Enkindu Gallente Seneca Federation	Posted - 2009.03.18 14:21:00 - [1] Exploration has been my favorite activity in eve pretty much since it was introduced. Made a good "living" in eve with it and had a lot of fun. At first I loved the new probing mechanic and I got quite proficient with it quickly. Now, however, I have quite unexpectedly "hit a wall" and all of a sudden I find exploration to be tedious and boring. This surprised me because I'd been quite excited for all of the changes in Apocrypha. I can't even put my finger on why I feel this way, but exploration used to feel fun and now it just seems tedious. Those really hard sigs used to give a real "Eureka!" moment when you nailed them down.. know you know pretty much where everything is... it's just a process of working through the same "scan, move the probes" procedure. Once you've learned the interface it's about as fulfilling aa working on an assembly line. I know CCP put a hell of alot of effort into the expansion and they really made some impressive changes to the game, so I feel crappy saying anything negative.. but the simple truth is that something that has brought me hundreds of hours of enjoyment is basically gone. Yes I know the new interface is much more interactive and requires player "skill" etc, but somehow it just isn't fun (I shouldn't have to add the phrase "in my opinion" because it should be understood, but with all the asshats in the eve-o forums I know I better tack it on). Maybe I'm just suffering "eve fatigue" and all I need is a break. That's what I'm hoping anyway. I'm getting my toons ready to mothball for a few months. Any other long time exploration fans out there feeling like I am?
Zantei	Posted - 2009.03.18 15:19:00 - [2] Edited by: Zantei on 18/03/2009 15:21:49 I'm actually new to exploration. It really does feel like an assembly line affair sometimes. :[ What bothers me is that as a combat character I can't seem to find any content through exploration? I fly about in my ishtar with some sisters core probes and everything I find is either a wormhole or a grav site. I've killed god knows how many pirate encounters and only had 1 escalation (though the reward was nice for that one). I want to find a plex every now and then but they're so rare I might just stop looking. I'll start to go only for the stuff which shows up 100% with one probe. Edit: To begin with it was a lot of fun, but after finding so many wormholes I don't even bother trying to narrow anything down anymore. You need 75% sig strength before you can tell a plex apart from a wormhole, that's too damn harsh.
Thenoran Caldari Tranquility Industries	Posted - 2009.03.18 15:26:00 - [3] Originally by: Zantei You need 75% sig strength before you can tell a plex apart from a wormhole, that's too damn harsh. Before Apocrypha you had to warp to the site before you could find out what it was, so really there's nothing to complain about when it takes <10 minutes to get a 75% signature. ------------------------ Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
Zantei	Posted - 2009.03.18 15:30:00 - [4] Originally by: Thenoran Originally by: Zantei You need 75% sig strength before you can tell a plex apart from a wormhole, that's too damn harsh. Before Apocrypha you had to warp to the site before you could find out what it was, so really there's nothing to complain about when it takes <10 minutes to get a 75% signature. Well, as I said, I'm new to exploration and having to move spheres about again and again gets really repetitive. I wouldn't mind if I knew that there was a chance of finding something useful but there never is (for me). Maybe I'll invest in hacking skills.
VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2009.03.18 15:54:00 - [5] Originally by: Thenoran Originally by: Zantei You need 75% sig strength before you can tell a plex apart from a wormhole, that's too damn harsh. Before Apocrypha you had to warp to the site before you could find out what it was, so really there's nothing to complain about when it takes <10 minutes to get a 75% signature. This is not true. You had to warp to the site to know "exactly" what it was by name. But you knew from your very first scan whether you were looking at a Radar, Mag, Grav, etc. -------- [
Lysianna Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.18 15:55:00 - [6] Exploration is not as fun because now everyone can do it. All the months of training are now worth nothing, all the unique tricks, skills and knowledge are now worth nothing. It's a great new system but it removes the exclusivity. It's not a bad thing but it could have remained complicated like before. ________________________________________________ Lysianna Hazumason Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
digital0verdose Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.18 16:13:00 - [7] Originally by: Lysianna Exploration is not as fun because now everyone can do it. All the months of training are now worth nothing, all the unique tricks, skills and knowledge are now worth nothing. It's a great new system but it removes the exclusivity. It's not a bad thing but it could have remained complicated like before. Once the hoopla over the new execution wears down, there will be a lot fewer people doing it simply because it doesn't pay out which will leave all the old explorers free to do what they did with a relatively small number of people competing. In a game like this is surprises me how little patience people have. We could keep talking about this all day but you're too busy reading my sig instead.
Zantei	Posted - 2009.03.18 16:17:00 - [8] I understand the need to keep some content exclusive to people who have trained up the skills. I loved treasure hunting in Ultima Online (back in the old days), you needed cartography skills, a shovel, a boat in some cases, experience etc... There should definitely be content meant for those who have invested points in training the appropriate skills. My only gripe is that as a combat character I am being kept from what I want. ;]
Thorian Baalnorn	Posted - 2009.03.18 17:09:00 - [9] Originally by: Zantei Originally by: Thenoran Originally by: Zantei You need 75% sig strength before you can tell a plex apart from a wormhole, that's too damn harsh. Before Apocrypha you had to warp to the site before you could find out what it was, so really there's nothing to complain about when it takes <10 minutes to get a 75% signature. Well, as I said, I'm new to exploration and having to move spheres about again and again gets really repetitive. I wouldn't mind if I knew that there was a chance of finding something useful but there never is (for me). Maybe I'll invest in hacking skills. Try throwing a probe out sitting and waiting for a 270 sec( and thats with good skills and a rigged buzzard non skilled could take over 500 sec)countdown... warping to every planet setting out a probe making sure none overlap scanning another 270 rinse and repeat. the "pros" actually recommended reading a book or watching a dvd while probing as it was extremely tedious i think the new system seems like an assembly line because of its speed but as someone who used the old method extensively, the new system is MUCH better. The new system is needed too as scanning using the old method in WH space would be a nightmare. i rather be able to scan down 4-10 sites in an hour and have it seem tedious than to scan down 1 site in 2 hours. i get enjoyment out of running the sites not watching the countdown timer.
Thorian Baalnorn	Posted - 2009.03.18 17:18:00 - [10] Originally by: Zantei I understand the need to keep some content exclusive to people who have trained up the skills. I loved treasure hunting in Ultima Online (back in the old days), you needed cartography skills, a shovel, a boat in some cases, experience etc... There should definitely be content meant for those who have invested points in training the appropriate skills. My only gripe is that as a combat character I am being kept from what I want. ;] the skills invested in exploring do help i have decent skills in exploration. using my drake to find sites takes longer to get green than using my buzzard. i can cut the time in 1/2 using a buzzard. So to me those skills arent wasted. it requires less effort to get to the good sites using the buzzard so i take it in first and BM all the sites. typicall the drake only has a probe launcher for: 1) if my exit closes so i can scan out a new one 2) to scan anomolies to hit before i leave. typically the better the site( more reward) the harder it is to scan down. so scanning skills do come into play. they just arent as noticable as before. If you want the good sites put some trains in exploration. it is well worth it in the long run if exploration is going to be something you do normally.
Kashre Minmatar Imperium Technologies Sangre Azul	Posted - 2009.03.18 17:22:00 - [11] When multispec probes first came out, I messed around a little bit with exploration... and what I discovered was that I'd rather go play WOW than deal with that. The new execution of exploration though actually made it accessible, without, I think, making too easy. Besides, the exploration part isn't the important part of Apocrypha. Personally, I think that the important part is that now 0.0 space (of sorts) is also accessible to pretty much anyone, not just the mega-alliances that hoard all the lucrative 0.0 for themselves. Complete with dangerous spawns, no concord, and the ability to get ganked if you're not paying attention. Exploration is now just the tip of that iceberg, instead of a niche game mechanic that only 1 in a 1000 players has the patience to deal with. +++ "Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa
Gaius Aemilius Wormhole-space Surveying and Exploitation	Posted - 2009.03.18 17:22:00 - [12] Originally by: Zantei I understand the need to keep some content exclusive to people who have trained up the skills. I loved treasure hunting in Ultima Online (back in the old days), you needed cartography skills, a shovel, a boat in some cases, experience etc... Fascinating analogy. As the once-GM of THB on Siege Perilous I totally get the analogy, and think it's pretty solid. I think this is similar to the effect that occurred when treasure-hunting was made easier by the creation of player libraries of the treasure sites. Prior to that you had to do serious searching, and sometimes it took a bloody long while. After the libraries were created treasure-hunting became much more "industrial": find the site, open a gate to it, get your crew to deal w. the initial guards, then stir the chest for more spawn. It lost a lot of the feel of a treasure hunt prior to that period. I think what we're seeing is something similar with regards to the explorers. However, unlike UO, they've given us wormholes to try to not debuff the explorer profession quite so much. But damn, nice analogy. (The entity once known as Lindisfarne [THB] on Siege Perilous) Wormholes ate my sig. They said it was yummy.
Dohl Khrensen Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.03.18 17:31:00 - [13] I disagree with the OP. I've been doing exploration on and off since it launched, with a couple of periods of doing it at my sole method of making ISK, and I have to say that I enjoy the new scanning mechanics infinitely more than the old scanning mechanics. I'd much rather go through the 'scan, move the probes procedure' than 'place probes, scan, wait 2.5-60 minutes for any kind of hit while alt-tabbed procedure.' Sure, with the new system, all those clever bookmarks you made that were 4.0001 AU away from your next quest probe are useless, and the tricks you developed for getting hits (though any tricks I developed were pure guesswork due to the chance-based old system) are obsolete. However, this new system has a whole new skill-set to master and new tricks to develop. How about interpreting the new scan results from a single long range probe and being able to zero in on a sig's location within 4AU with one glance? Or using logic and reason to pick the true sig from the echo? Or using an unorthodox technique to find that one Radar site 0.5AU from 3 Gravs and a wormhole? I prefer my 'Eureka!' moments to be due to some talent I've displayed, not because I rolled 67 on a hundred-face die. I'll limit my chance-based disappointments to empty Radar and Mag cans, thank you very much. I'm having a good time with the system. I like having to spend the time finding sigs, even if you do have to spend more time on types of sigs you aren't interested in, rather than large chunks of time finding nothing when you know something is there. Now when you explore a system you actually have to explore a system; not glance at it and move along. The interface is still a bit clunky, and exploring with bloom turned on is almost blinding on my system, but all in all I think that the exploration process has been buffed in practically every way.
Tornim Minmatar HeXstoof Mortal Destruction	Posted - 2009.03.18 17:41:00 - [14] I'm not saying the old way of scanning was perfect, but it was more like "exploration". If you knew a site was in a system, you wouldn't be guaranteed to find it. You had to have a lot of skill and exp to setup good probe coverage. And then you had to be lucky to even get a hit with good coverage. This lead to a mystique with exploration. Where a few hours of scanning could bring great riches or fail terribly. Now a days, if there is a site in a system you are guaranteed to find it. 100% no chance to fail. It will just time until have the sig str tracked down fully. And tracking it down now doesnt require planning, or proper probe coverage. Just spam probes and move them where they need to be. No randomness, no elusiveness, nothing that makes scanning an actual challenge. They basically took the thinking aspect out of the process. Welcome to Fisher Price My First Scanning (TM)
Zantei	Posted - 2009.03.18 17:51:00 - [15] Edited by: Zantei on 18/03/2009 17:51:33 I played UO on the atlantic server before trammel, some of my best times were spent fishing up treasure. :] Exploration in eve is definitely more fun than it once was, considering this is the most I've used the mechanic. I plan to invest more points in exploration skills to get the most out of it.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2009.03.18 17:57:00 - [16] Originally by: Tornim I'm not saying the old way of scanning was perfect, but it was more like "exploration". If you knew a site was in a system, you wouldn't be guaranteed to find it. You had to have a lot of skill and exp to setup good probe coverage. And then you had to be lucky to even get a hit with good coverage. This lead to a mystique with exploration. Where a few hours of scanning could bring great riches or fail terribly. Now a days, if there is a site in a system you are guaranteed to find it. 100% no chance to fail. It will just time until have the sig str tracked down fully. And tracking it down now doesnt require planning, or proper probe coverage. Just spam probes and move them where they need to be. No randomness, no elusiveness, nothing that makes scanning an actual challenge. They basically took the thinking aspect out of the process. Welcome to Fisher Price My First Scanning (TM) Well you're wrong about one thing. There's plenty of sites that a low-skilled player will "fail" to find infinitely. There is a certain scan STR needed for many of the higher-end sites. So while the 'player skill' may have been trivialized, the character skill is still very relevant. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Dohl Khrensen Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.03.18 18:25:00 - [17] The Ferret is right. There is still plenty of chances for failure in the new scanning system, and as I stated in my above post, there are still plenty of new 'player skills' to develop to find sigs faster, or even get good hits on some of them. There are plenty of 'what am I doing wrong?' posts and 'Why can't I find an exit?' posts on these forums and in the Exploration channel in-game, not because they are doing anything wrong but strictly because their skills, both player and character, are not high enough or honed enough. It may be easy for you (as you said, you've been doing this for awhile and probably have great skills and equipment) but its not easy for everyone. No randomness: that's a good thing. No elusiveness: that's just not true in my experience.
Kalenia Rostok	Posted - 2009.03.18 19:08:00 - [18] Once you get mediocre skills, there's no chance of failing to scan down even the hardest of spots. The old way was boring, but it certainly gave you a reason to up your skills. Now its just "move the pyramid of probes around the dot". Eve needs to learn "interactive" is not moving ships or probes. I'd like something like the sonar displays on subs, to try to figure out what is where visually, rather than some mathematical formula followed by some frustrating UI manipulation.
Tornim Minmatar HeXstoof Mortal Destruction	Posted - 2009.03.18 19:53:00 - [19] i agree that a lot of new explorers will get lost or give up on the process. And eventually, over a few weeks or a month that will thin out the herd. which will be good. on the other hand, i have players in my corp completely new to scanning, with the bare minimum of skills pull sites down almost as fast as me. and that's only cause they don't have the scanning exp and i don't want to share ALL my tricks ;) and NO ONE has to fly dedicated scanning ships. I'm able to pull all sites with a mining cruiser or a Sleeper-fit BS just as easily. sure you might get a scan quicker, but all ur saving is a few minutes as a non-scanning ship only has to bring the probes one step closer and down in size and its done.
rofflesausage	Posted - 2009.03.18 20:39:00 - [20] Originally by: Thenoran Originally by: Zantei You need 75% sig strength before you can tell a plex apart from a wormhole, that's too damn harsh. Before Apocrypha you had to warp to the site before you could find out what it was, so really there's nothing to complain about when it takes <10 minutes to get a 75% signature. wut? The very first probe you should have dropped (multispec) told you the site type.
Morberi	Posted - 2009.03.18 20:42:00 - [21] Is this a sign that the masses will start stopping their plexing rampage? Thank the heavens
Dohl Khrensen Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.03.18 20:57:00 - [22] Originally by: rofflesausage Originally by: Thenoran Originally by: Zantei You need 75% sig strength before you can tell a plex apart from a wormhole, that's too damn harsh. Before Apocrypha you had to warp to the site before you could find out what it was, so really there's nothing to complain about when it takes <10 minutes to get a 75% signature. wut? The very first probe you should have dropped (multispec) told you the site type. I think they were talking about 'unknown' sigs. With the old system, you knew there was an unknown in system, but you had no idea what kind of plex it was until you could warp directly to it, i.e. 100% accuracy. Now, you know at 25% that it is an unknown, and at 75% you know exactly what type it is.
Trebor Notlimah Lone Star EVE Group Veni Vidi Vici	Posted - 2009.03.18 20:57:00 - [23] To me, it went from an actual mini-profession to more of a hobby. Instead of having to have the patience, skills, bookmarks, equipment, implants, and in depth knowledge of the old probe system, people can go out and find sites with little of the mentioned above. Fifteen minutes of forum reading and playing with the new probe system and anyone can be a qualified 'explorer'
Celia Therone	Posted - 2009.03.18 21:19:00 - [24] Edited by: Celia Therone on 18/03/2009 21:19:25 I think that the facet of new exploration that I like least is how much it insists (in hi sec at least) that you play in huge blocks of time. It can take several hours to track down a suitably empty wormhole, scan down all the sites, switch out to the appropriate ship/setup and run the site. In high sec at least the wormholes go away within a day so you can't log out and come back the next day without having to start again. If you stay in the wormhole then you face a long treck home. Having site labels stay through log offs (so you don't have to bookmark everything manually) and have wormholes last a couple of days (like old style exploration sites used to last 3 days) would help a little I think. I'm undecided on the new scanning system. It's certainly more fun in the short term, but it also seems to have adopted a certain repetitive strain mechanic that seems like it'll get old pretty quickly given how many sites you have to track down. The old system was really boring but it required so little attention that you could do things productively out of game. The new system lets you find things much faster but most of the things that you find are junk and it requires 100% of your attention to find them. So it actually wastes a lot more of your attention span.
Rainhailer Gallente Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.03.18 21:53:00 - [25] New system is more fun for me because it is easier to find sites, and more skill/common sense based than luck/randomly based. While it may be repetitive, I get enjoyment out of timing how long it takes to find sites and competing with myself to get as low of a time as possible.
Revez	Posted - 2009.03.18 23:31:00 - [26] I've been bouncing around between probing with my Helios and probing with my Ishtar since the release and the only real difference I've found is how few sites I'm finding these days. I grabbed a handful of explore skills at low ranks on my alt and found pretty much the same. So I'm a bit miffed at how much train time I've wasted becoming a high-skill explorer. Overall though the blush hasn't worn off yet and I'm much happier playing with probe positions than I was with pressing the scan again button over and over while I watch a movie. Oh, and since I don't have a regular group which can run W-space and I'm too much of a paranoid freak to run any w-space stuff by myself... I find that wormholes are just one more thing to find, reducing the chances of finding something I'm looking for (anything but a mining site. I can fight, hack, whatever).
glassmanipulator Lucian Alliance Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.18 23:47:00 - [27] Edited by: glassmanipulator on 18/03/2009 23:47:48 Originally by: Tornim I'm not saying the old way of scanning was perfect, but it was more like "exploration". If you knew a site was in a system, you wouldn't be guaranteed to find it. You had to have a lot of skill and exp to setup good probe coverage. And then you had to be lucky to even get a hit with good coverage. This lead to a mystique with exploration. Where a few hours of scanning could bring great riches or fail terribly. Now a days, if there is a site in a system you are guaranteed to find it. 100% no chance to fail. It will just time until have the sig str tracked down fully. And tracking it down now doesnt require planning, or proper probe coverage. Just spam probes and move them where they need to be. No randomness, no elusiveness, nothing that makes scanning an actual challenge. They basically took the thinking aspect out of the process. Welcome to Fisher Price My First Scanning (TM) I couldn't agree with this more. Exploration took patience and skill before.. Now its just hello kitty spam. I was shocked too see how fast I found a 10/10 plex with the new mechanic.. Before you could spend 2+ hours scanning a 10/10.. Looking for a .025 quest hit. Not that that's fun persay, but at least it kept everyone else from finding it. The uber uber sigs really took time and skills to find. I feel most of the skills are now irrelevant, as people are finding the very high end sites way too fast.
rofflesausage	Posted - 2009.03.19 00:31:00 - [28] Originally by: Dohl Khrensen Originally by: rofflesausage Originally by: Thenoran Originally by: Zantei You need 75% sig strength before you can tell a plex apart from a wormhole, that's too damn harsh. Before Apocrypha you had to warp to the site before you could find out what it was, so really there's nothing to complain about when it takes <10 minutes to get a 75% signature. wut? The very first probe you should have dropped (multispec) told you the site type. I think they were talking about 'unknown' sigs. With the old system, you knew there was an unknown in system, but you had no idea what kind of plex it was until you could warp directly to it, i.e. 100% accuracy. Now, you know at 25% that it is an unknown, and at 75% you know exactly what type it is. I'm not being rude when I ask this but did you ever do exploration? This couldn't be more wrong. You dropped a multispec and it told you what was in the system with 100% accuracy on the site type. Even when talking about 'unknown' sites - it was either a combat site, combat with escalation, or a combat with a DED reward. Either way you had to simply blow stuff up.
Enkindu Gallente Seneca Federation	Posted - 2009.03.19 02:08:00 - [29] Originally by: glassmanipulator Edited by: glassmanipulator on 18/03/2009 23:47:48 Originally by: Tornim I'm not saying the old way of scanning was perfect, but it was more like "exploration". If you knew a site was in a system, you wouldn't be guaranteed to find it. You had to have a lot of skill and exp to setup good probe coverage. And then you had to be lucky to even get a hit with good coverage. This lead to a mystique with exploration. Where a few hours of scanning could bring great riches or fail terribly. Now a days, if there is a site in a system you are guaranteed to find it. 100% no chance to fail. It will just time until have the sig str tracked down fully. And tracking it down now doesnt require planning, or proper probe coverage. Just spam probes and move them where they need to be. No randomness, no elusiveness, nothing that makes scanning an actual challenge. They basically took the thinking aspect out of the process. Welcome to Fisher Price My First Scanning (TM) I couldn't agree with this more. Exploration took patience and skill before.. Now its just hello kitty spam. I was shocked too see how fast I found a 10/10 plex with the new mechanic.. Before you could spend 2+ hours scanning a 10/10.. Looking for a .025 quest hit. Not that that's fun persay, but at least it kept everyone else from finding it. The uber uber sigs really took time and skills to find. I feel most of the skills are now irrelevant, as people are finding the very high end sites way too fast. Exactly. Glad I'm not alone. Hardest sig I've found yet (top end sleeper radar site) took me less than 4 minutes to get to 100%.
demonfurbie Minmatar Covert-Nexus Dark Cadre	Posted - 2009.03.19 02:30:00 - [30] ive been an explorer for quite some time (exploration release) and i have to say i do like some of the changes. it requires some player skill not just sp skill may be just not enough player skill. i dont like the fact there is no real multi probe to tell me what is in the system before i start out.
Tomogara	Posted - 2009.03.19 03:57:00 - [31] Originally by: Tornim I'm not saying the old way of scanning was perfect, but it was more like "exploration". If you knew a site was in a system, you wouldn't be guaranteed to find it. Yes, but you also wouldn't be guaranteed to NOT find it either. The old system, character skills were a 'soft cap' on how hard of a site you could find -- you could find any site if you just pushed the button enough, skills just made it faster. Now, character skills are a hard cap. If you don't have enough strength to probe a site to 100%, you won't EVER find it. Quote: No randomness, no elusiveness, nothing that makes scanning an actual challenge. They basically took the thinking aspect out of the process. The old system wasn't challenging, it was time consuming. Your first scan in a system you could spend an hour dropping midwarp bookmarks, but once you had all your quest positions bookmarked, any time you wanted to scan a site in that system, you just loaded the appropriate probe type, warped through your bookmark list, and pushed the button until you got a hit or you got too bored to continue. Hell, the only thing that was even "thinking" was how if you had two different hits on the same site both with high deviation, you could calculate a third point that would be closer to the site than either of the original hits, and drop midwarp bookmarks to reach it. But really, how often did anyone actually do THAT? Once you got a hit it was usually just warp to hit - drop probe - scan for another hit - rinse and repeat. The new system requires a lot more thought in probe placement, and you have to deal with "echoes" where the same site can show up two or more times, etc.
Argendta	Posted - 2009.03.19 06:13:00 - [32] What can I say? I'm glad you don't like it. More iskies to me!
McRoll	Posted - 2009.03.19 13:24:00 - [33] Well, i scanned before and after Apocrypha and i like the new system more. With the old system, you didnt need to have any skill either except maybe bookmark the system in a way that you could cover every planet with maximum efficiency. After that it was only hitting the "scan" button and alt+tab out of the game and wait for the scan. The sites spawned only around planets in 4 AU range so best coverage of planets was the only thing you had to worry about. The new system might be repetitive after a while but at least you stay in game and do something instead browsing the internet while your scan runs. The fact that you dont really need high probing skills gives the players the possibility to expand their PvE experience, who didnt have the time to invest in probing skills. Those who did train them up, find the sites faster and easier so its not really wasted.
UndergrounD Caldari Grumpy Old Farts Burning Souls	Posted - 2009.03.19 14:06:00 - [34] its boring and tedious at times. I've enjoyed some parts but the majority of the time i'm boring myself ****less scanning grav & ladar sites when all i want an exit wormhole.
Dohl Khrensen Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.03.19 17:59:00 - [35] Originally by: rofflesausage Originally by: Dohl Khrensen Originally by: rofflesausage wut? The very first probe you should have dropped (multispec) told you the site type. I think they were talking about 'unknown' sigs. With the old system, you knew there was an unknown in system, but you had no idea what kind of plex it was until you could warp directly to it, i.e. 100% accuracy. Now, you know at 25% that it is an unknown, and at 75% you know exactly what type it is. I'm not being rude when I ask this but did you ever do exploration? This couldn't be more wrong. You dropped a multispec and it told you what was in the system with 100% accuracy on the site type. Even when talking about 'unknown' sites - it was either a combat site, combat with escalation, or a combat with a DED reward. Either way you had to simply blow stuff up. I just saw this response to me and needed to reply. I don't think you're being rude but the old system worked exactly as I described it: dropped a multispec and found there was an unknown in system, but you didn't know what kind of unknown sig it was until you could warp to it, i.e. when you acheived 100% accuracy. Sure you knew that an unknown meant it was a combat site, but you didn't know if it was crappy drone site, an easy Angel plex, or a 10/10 DED plex until you could warp to the site. I wasn't referring to site type in terms of mag, grav, radar, etc., I was referring to site type as in name, like Angel Provincial HQ, etc.. Thought I was more clear with that distinction, but I guess I wasn't.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2009.03.19 18:13:00 - [36] Really my problem with it is that you can't just plop out a multispectral and find out what is in a system, now you can only find out IF there is something in the system. Also you can't filter by site type, which is a huge oversight if you ask me. ----------- Originally by: CCP Whisper Deal with it.
rofflesausage	Posted - 2009.03.19 23:55:00 - [37] Originally by: Dohl Khrensen I wasn't referring to site type in terms of mag, grav, radar, etc., I was referring to site type as in name, like Angel Provincial HQ, etc.. Thought I was more clear with that distinction, but I guess I wasn't. Ah gotya. That's where we were getting our wires crossed. I've only ever heard 'site type' referred to when talking about grav, mag ect.... Have a free hug
Menyet Ikeemoo	Posted - 2009.03.20 14:17:00 - [38] I would love a Save probe placement button, compared to each other, so the most boring part would be out from the game(you know, the move the probes closer, upper, etc, for the great formation)
Cameron Freerunner	Posted - 2009.03.20 17:43:00 - [39] Originally by: Menyet Ikeemoo I would love a Save probe placement button, compared to each other, so the most boring part would be out from the game(you know, the move the probes closer, upper, etc, for the great formation) +10 for that idea! I've been wishing for the same thing. If it also let you keep several different configurations, that would be even cooler. As long as we're wishing, it would be nice if the interface for adjusting multiple drones simultaneously was a little more user friendly (i.e., labeled properly).
Shadowschild	Posted - 2009.03.20 18:26:00 - [40] What turned off a lot of people from the original scanning mechanics was the scan time & probe placement. By introducing 10 second scan times & overlapping probes, it's easier then ever to scan down a plex. Which is good from a developers point of view. But honestly, from my perspective, few people were willing to train astrometrics to level IV. Those that did would benefit from sift probes (which made scanning easier). I would suggest adjusting the probing mechanics so that astrometrics levels play a more important role. For example, astrometrics IV can let you set the scan range to .25au. Cheers on the new system though
Veidiven	Posted - 2009.03.20 18:55:00 - [41] I feel the same way. I started exploring about two months before apocrypha and it became my favorite way to spend time. Now it seems like alot of micromanaging and more repetitive than before. I have had fun in the wormholes but have no desire to scan them down now.
MeMongo Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.20 21:05:00 - [42] I miss the days when I used to spend over 20 hours using triangulation to pinpoint the location of a scanned object. I once found a parked hauler with 4 rare expanders. My finding resulted in over 80 Mil, but I worked for it. But in those days, it was possible to have a "true" safe spot in the system. Now, no place is safe. Except in station.
Mojihito	Posted - 2009.03.20 21:19:00 - [43] Now its not exploration , its farming .
Bishops Guest	Posted - 2009.03.20 21:52:00 - [44] Where has all my boring gone? I used to read a book and spend two hours running probes in my little part of no-sec. Now I am done in half an hour, and have to face the fact that I don't do enough DPS to finish any of the sites I find anyway. What is next? Is mining going to be turned into a mini game? Bounce the photon off the main reflector dish into the rock, then grab the falling ore? Maybe with powerups? Is CCP going to make gate camping interesting? I have no clue how they would do that... How about a puzzle game to up the time/efficancy of your research and production? I thought eve was supposed to be dull. I disagree that all those skills are no longer useful. I have gone out exploring with corp mates and with my skills I tend to find things at a much higher probe range. I think it really makes a difference for the harder wormholes. My biggest problem is that I can nolonger warp to found sites in my pod. Lost a rigged buzzard to gas and sleepers. (and the crappy UI problems)
Bonny Lee Caldari The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation	Posted - 2009.03.20 22:12:00 - [45] I like the system, but i liked the old one more. I¦m not scanning that much these days as i used to. We had people pinning down Serpentis Fleet-Shipyard 10/10 in under 10 minutes. Everyone will find those within no time so everyone is doing it. There is not much left to do. I dont know if i ll ever love this new system like the old one. Its not as motivating. I dont no what but it lacks. There is no feeling that you did something to find it... i know the old one wasn¦t that difficult but you had that feeling after finding a hard plex. I¦d love to see the old system combined with the ne probe-positioning system. But this way... hmmm
Bonny Lee Caldari The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation	Posted - 2009.03.20 22:20:00 - [46] Originally by: Kashre When multispec probes first came out, I messed around a little bit with exploration... and what I discovered was that I'd rather go play WOW than deal with that. The new execution of exploration though actually made it accessible, without, I think, making too easy. It so easy that im flying around with a scanning ishtar instead of my covert...
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.03.20 23:33:00 - [47] It would be nice if the skills counted for a bit more. If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.
Keilas	Posted - 2009.03.21 02:18:00 - [48] Truly, skills still do count - Located a small gravimetric site in high-sec (already not worth it, but bear with me here) The signal strength of that site - with Triangulation IV with a rigged Buzzard using a Sisters' expanded, was constantly poor. Even at 0.25AU, four probes couldn't get more than about 80% or so signal. Placement was the end cause, sure, but it still had enough trial/error, tweaking and adjusting to really make it feel like some effort had been applied. The old system was very much in favour of the patient - those who took the time and effort to make those probespots, to interpret the uninterpretable, and truly evolved into the system. I prefer the new system over that, if only because it no longer takes 3-10 minutes to tell me that it didn't find anything (but might next time!). Multispecs are a sad thing to lose, but the Deep Space Probes solve a reasonable amount of that - I've had 25% sigs at 16-32AU radii (crappy sites, sure, but the old system wouldn't tell you that, would it?) which allowed me to focus my search on the 0.1% signals that promised much greater rewards. Having old-system level skills also lets me have a warpable hit at 4AU. Geez, that's terrible! Exploration is flexible now - sure it's more accesible, but that also results in sites shifting more frequently as the crappy ones get cleared, but the reality of low-sig sites that can't be scanned down by the unprepared is still present. It's become a genuine profession, like mining, missioning and piracy. Great! The sheer number of wormholes that exist is surprisingly annoying though. Solo-explorers don't really have much use for K-WH.
Moose Balzak	Posted - 2009.03.21 04:20:00 - [49] You can always try mining
Syriana Luna Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2009.03.21 09:47:00 - [50] I think there needs to be a filter for wormholes to separate the old school explorers from the new school. Some of us may like the new mechanic, but hate having to go through it just to find out it was a wormhole that we have no intention of running...I became an explorer to find sites not wormholes; perhaps a better use of the skills threshold could be that at astrometrics 5 you get a filter? This way you have something to reward your training. and in response the 'where has all my boring gone'...I'm totally with you. I embraced the boring as being part of a special group of eve players that relished the mysterious nature of exploration probing. I mean i like the new probes, I like the range settings etc. I dislike that I don't have option of the multispec telling me there's a Magnet site here when I'm looking for gravs.
Shaen Vesuvius	Posted - 2009.03.21 11:45:00 - [51] With the enormeous amount of sites in WH space the short scanning time is a gift. You still need good skills to find the good stuff. So what if you can find crappy sites within 5 minutes....be glad. I just love how I wont spend valuable time and money probing down a skank drone combat site. This way exploring is more viable as source of income. It used to cost 2 hours and alot of luck to find something good. Now you can hit paydirt in 15 minutes. Some ppl just cant bear change. I think this expansion is great. Faster in terms of finding something, more profitable (ALOT more t2 salvage from magneto sites for example) and the sites themselves are harder to run. This forces teamwork, especially when you try to run sleeper sites.
Y Berion Minmatar	Posted - 2009.03.21 12:22:00 - [52] I agree with OP. (already whined too much about it so I'll make this short heh)
Sajeera	Posted - 2009.03.21 12:35:00 - [53] Originally by: Trebor Notlimah To me, it went from an actual mini-profession to more of a hobby. Instead of having to have the patience, skills, bookmarks, equipment, implants, and in depth knowledge of the old probe system, people can go out and find sites with little of the mentioned above. Fifteen minutes of forum reading and playing with the new probe system and anyone can be a qualified 'explorer' Completely agree. It was needed to be dedicated to exploration and to have a certain skills and knowledge. Now every gatecamper and miner can fit the probe launcher just for "da lulz" and he is ready for exploring. For me exploration as a proffession doesnt exists anymore. The old school explorers, with dedicated ships and cargo bays full of probes, traveling through low sec and 0.0 for days just to get to the high sec markets finally and sell their hard earned loot are no more. They stepped their place to a hungry crowd, armed with 15cpu core probe launchers, shooting probes everywhere and scanning down everything under 5mins. All those adventurers will be lost in time.....like tears in rain. Time to die
Azirapheal Amarr Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2009.03.21 13:40:00 - [54] is it just me that seems to be finding alot more "ghost sites" only to find that you have literally been chasing nothing and the blips you got off were >8au from the spot? (still findable but involves alot of backpeddling)
Qui Shon	Posted - 2009.03.21 16:37:00 - [55] Originally by: Shaen Vesuvius With the enormeous amount of sites in WH space the short scanning time is a gift. You still need good skills to find the good stuff. So what if you can find crappy sites within 5 minutes....be glad. I just love how I wont spend valuable time and money probing down a skank drone combat site. This way exploring is more viable as source of income. It used to cost 2 hours and alot of luck to find something good. Now you can hit paydirt in 15 minutes. Some ppl just cant bear change. I think this expansion is great. Faster in terms of finding something, more profitable (ALOT more t2 salvage from magneto sites for example) and the sites themselves are harder to run. This forces teamwork, especially when you try to run sleeper sites. Umm, why don't you try thinking ahead a little. When it's so easy & quick, what do you think is going to happen to the value of the loot?
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2009.03.21 17:20:00 - [56] Wouldn't it kick ass to be able to filter site types ? Wouldn't it tho ? How about one probe type that scans radar/mag sites, one that does grav/ladar and one that does unknown ? Or even five different ones ? Like we had in the good old days ? If you are after a specific kind of site, then you have the specific probes. If you want all of them, then you only need to drop 5 different probes, which can all be in space at the same time, so it wouldn't take that long.
Mahnoob Dabayt	Posted - 2009.03.22 02:57:00 - [57] Edited by: Mahnoob Dabayt on 22/03/2009 03:02:44 Originally by: Katarlia Simov Wouldn't it kick ass to be able to filter site types ? Wouldn't it tho ? How about one probe type that scans radar/mag sites, one that does grav/ladar and one that does unknown ? Or even five different ones ? Like we had in the good old days ? If you are after a specific kind of site, then you have the specific probes. If you want all of them, then you only need to drop 5 different probes, which can all be in space at the same time, so it wouldn't take that long. Or, how about another setting for your Probes, allowing you to choose the 'signal type' you're using? You can change their location and change their range, so why not change their signal type? I actualy wonder why probes aren't expendable any more, it doesn't seem to be CCP's 'way'. They've seemed to prefer it when something's used up, as it creates a market for others to produce said item (ie: ammo, old probe types, ect) Now, they may as well just remove all BPO's for probes and just stock the NPC's. I have nearly 4000 Core probes from the 'translation' to Apoc, and I can't imagine ever needing to build more. It's not like they're ever used up, and I don't lose them or the ship's they're on with any regularity. I certainly have no intention of buying (let alone researching) a Deep Space or other probe BPO when I get Astrometrics V, I'll just buy the 20 or so I need and be done with it. And I agree with others in regard to the idea that they've turned Exploration into the Exploration: the Scanning (No patience required) I've parked the Cheetah, it's irrelevant now, especialy since I know others will find the sites if I leave them to go get a fighting ship. I've nearly had a site pin-pointed when it simply vanished because someone no doubt had just warped away from having completed it. Far better to bring it with, as the difference in scanning ability from your dedicated scanner boat is too minimal to bother with.
Ashkida	Posted - 2009.03.22 04:01:00 - [58] What do most of you do to eliminate finding the same site twice when looking for another site nearby? I wish there was a filter to remove found sites in order to find sites nearby found ones and not having to keep scanning 2 sites. I enjoy the new vs the old. Thoughts?

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