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Veritas Falx
The-Kissaki
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Posted - 2009.03.18 19:39:00 -
[1]
I have kinda wanted to get into trading. It seems like good money, but honestly I see all of these big wigs writing guides throwing out some high numbers like 200mil for 5 minutes of work a day, and honestly it sounds worse than those commercials that are like make $5000 working 5 hours or less from your home a week.
I can run missions fairly well, 20mil or so an hour. Trading better? Worse? Is it really 200mil a day or is that only if you work really hard at it?
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Kwint Sommer
Caldari
XERCORE
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Posted - 2009.03.18 19:48:00 -
[2]
No, trader is not profitable and you definitely couldn't have found a nice long thread with people flaunting how much they make per hour using eve-search.
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Veritas Falx
The-Kissaki
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Posted - 2009.03.18 19:52:00 -
[3]
That is the thing, the only people who post it make a ton of isk that is either over exaggerated or they have been doing it for a long time and are investing huge capital.
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zombeee
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.03.18 19:53:00 -
[4]
Try it and you will see.
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Kwint Sommer
Caldari
XERCORE
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Posted - 2009.03.18 19:53:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Veritas Falx
That is the thing, the only people who post it make a ton of isk that is either over exaggerated or they have been doing it for a long time and are investing huge capital.
It takes money to make money.
I thought this was a question of return per hour, not return on capital. The two are very different things.
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Dark 'Shadow
Infused Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.18 19:54:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Veritas Falx
That is the thing, the only people who post it make a ton of isk that is either over exaggerated or they have been doing it for a long time and are investing huge capital.
Sarcasm detector broken?
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ShadowFire Industries Fighter Store |
Isaac Swift
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Posted - 2009.03.18 19:55:00 -
[7]
I'm hardly a big wig (I just started trading less than a week ago), and right now I'm probably only making about 5mil a day with a 100mil investment in the market. I also spend a good deal of time reading the forums, checking out new trading tools, and generally trying to wrap my head around the whole trading mindset. So in the beginning, trading does not seem to generate nearly as much money as running missions. There are five key benefits that trading has over missioning, however: (1) trading requires far less of a time sink than missioning (after you've gotten your research down), (2) profits are only limited by investment capitol (meaning almost unlimited potential profit), (3) unless you are making risky speculations, you should almost never lose money, (4) trading is IMHO a far more satisfying intellectual exercise than anything else I'v done in eve. It's something that really rewards research and business smarts, above all else, and (5) trading does not often require active participation, and it is entirely possible to trade while running missions.
So in a short answer, I'm sure that with enough money to invest, it's entirely possible to make 300mil a day with little effort. It'll take a while before you can reach that level, however.
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Dzil
Caldari
Apache Research Team
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Posted - 2009.03.18 20:00:00 -
[8]
I think the big appeal in trading is the room to expand. You can mission @ 20mil/hour. Invest another billion in mods - maybe you can mission @ 30 mil /hour. Invest 10 billion on all the latest implants, faction fits, t2 ammo, etc: maybe now your up to 33 mil/hour.
With trade, you can make this much per hour too, I'm sure, though you may need a different set of skills, both IG/RL, to pull it off. The biggest draws to me are:
1. It's scalable. Given twice as much money I can invest in twice as much product, up to a point. You can buy 10 CNRs, but you can't make money with all of them unless you either finance another account or really really trust a guy.
2. It's freeform. In missioning a guy hands you an arbitrary target list. In trading, you pick where you're going to spend your time, and oh by the way, not all choices are profitable.
3. It's pvp. With spreadsheets. This may not be for everyone.
Science, industry, business and combat all intertwine - if you've got an interest in the market I'd say try it out. You probably won't start off making what you did missioning, but your knowledge of missioning will point you towards good opportunities in the market, and if nothing else what you learn from the market will help you get the most isk back from missioning. Expand your horizons and enjoy the game :)
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Mythrantar
Caldari
Darkwave Technologies
Doctrine.
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Posted - 2009.03.18 20:02:00 -
[9]
One billion cajillion faffilion shafadabalooooilion... ISK!
Seriously though, it can make really good profits if you are serious about it and do your research. A decent starting capital also helps a lot, though it is not required.
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Seragon
Caldari
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.03.18 20:08:00 -
[10]
Isk / hour trading isn't really that helpful of a metric for trading. A better thing to ask would be % return on capital per hour / week / month. The more capital you have to work with the larger return you get. Trading is complex and no simple single number will be adequate to describe what you want to know.
Unless you're asking for epeen reasons.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.03.18 20:42:00 -
[11]
Im flat broke and lose money all the time... but then again it doesn't help that I measure my wealth in waffles, pancakes and syrup |
Ji Sama
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Posted - 2009.03.18 20:47:00 -
[12]
well ive hit my wall and cant seem to overcome the next lvl of trading, i made a billion in one day that was huge for me.
but today i make around 200-500 million per day, but that is not 7 days a week mind you, i rarely play in the weekend...
i dont have liquid capital lying around most is invested....
i like to set region buy orders and just get stuff really cheap, then i know that i can sell it for a profit at some time in the future. i only buy items i know will last.. like ores...
"the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
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Challis
Caldari
Volition Cult
The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2009.03.18 20:48:00 -
[13]
There are certainly ppl earning 1bil+ / day by trading.
And they have a huge capital involved in this.
But also they have started small just like everyone else.
However, no one that makes these kinds of money will tell you how they do it :)
Try out some basic trading and see how much you like it, you'll find out eventually where the big money is hiding.
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flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc
Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2009.03.18 22:25:00 -
[14]
There are days of 10 mille there are days of 500 mille.There are days i smile there are days i am sad.Sometimes i drink coffee other days i am more of a tea guy.
In other words putting a per hour ratio on trade is allmost impossible the fluctuation of most is just too big.Better question is to ask how much isk have you made in X amount of time and with how much isk put into it.
But you'll get the same answers as now wich actually comes down to it's none of your business  .
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720
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Posted - 2009.03.18 22:40:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Veritas Falx
I can run missions fairly well, 20mil or so an hour. Trading better? Worse? Is it really 200mil a day or is that only if you work really hard at it?
If you run missions you need at least an hour (maybe two if you are doing clean up). If you trade you can just spend minutes checking prices, or modifying sell orders, etc.
I usually check orders for 15 minutes before work, 30 minutes after work and 15 minutes before bed*. I make easily more than 20M in that hour worth of play (most of it when I'm not online). I actually got into trading because I didn't always have enough time to complete a lvl 4 but had enough time to log on and check things out. A trade career was the natural outcome.
*I actually play now and then too, and then I trade more frequently, the key is getting Day Trading, Marketing and Procurement trained up, so you can trade on the fly as it were.
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Dennmoth Ferdier
CINDER INDUSTRIALS
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Posted - 2009.03.18 22:56:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Dennmoth Ferdier on 18/03/2009 22:58:20
Edited by: Dennmoth Ferdier on 18/03/2009 22:56:59
It's very hard to determine isk per hour income as a trader. Trading isn't that simple. You can only make rough estimates, which can vary greatly per every single day.
I'm a patch day trader mainly, well, it's easiest to make money on if you have capital, without too much effort. I cashed in on the apocrypha, I bought a pile of Helios' 2 weeks prior to the patch, and later sold em when the prices skyrocketed for roughly about 500-800 million, and continued to suck the tit until just recently now that it's finally dying down. I spent all my capital and was iskless for a couple of weeks, unable to do much (well I did mine quite a lot), and having made the 5-8 hundread mil, I continued to reinvest back in to the inflated ship prices as I saw a manipulation on the said ship for additional 10 mil profit per unit and made another 300-600 mil. And yes I can reveal this information because the competition has found the window and it has all but died down. On a nice day I did sell 35 ships during the night with no competition, only 2 orders in jita. Was nice checking my orders the next morning. 
Point of this ramble being, would you take the maximum of 1.4 billion and divide it by days and hours there is in that 2-3 week time and calculate the isk per hour ratio?
The initial 5-8 hundread took me 10 minutes to set up, and 2 weeks to sit on.
You grind focused on the screen missioning for 20 mil per hour.
It's kind of like comparing apples and oranges, yet, it's not. Very difficult indeed 
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Heart for isk, Balls for risk. |
Brock Nelson
Caldari
Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2009.03.18 23:09:00 -
[17]
Been making over a bil each month for the past 2 months. This month is a different story since my corp is knee deeps in research to fill stock for the store.
Blueprint Store |
Lisa Waen
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Posted - 2009.03.18 23:23:00 -
[18]
I would definately agree that the amount of isk you make in a month directly correlates to amount invested modified by careful choice of item sold.
I recommend that you initially save up 50-100mil as seed money, rolling your profits back into trading, this will allow you to build up. Then spend at least a few days researching the markets you want to get into. This is time well spent as it will mean the difference between decent profit, marginal profit, and loss. Once you have determined what you want to trade in, start off slowly and roll over your profits into larger orders until you have about 2-4 weeks worth of stock on hand. This will allow you to spend a mere 1-3 days a month managing your inventory, and the rest of your trading time is price adjusts that should go fairly quickly.
This should allow you to eventually bring in a reasonable income for minimal effort. The added bonus is the spare time can be used running missions or whatever else you currently use as a primary income source. Hopefully you can at least earn enough supplemental income from trading to either pay for plex, or that shiny new ship you always wanted.
The keys to successful trading are
Discipline
Research
and Patience.
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Crimsona Endarius
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Posted - 2009.03.18 23:30:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Lisa Waen
The keys to successful trading are
Discipline
Research
and Patience.
Courage to take risks
Ability to learn from your mistakes
To add a couple
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Business Ethics
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Posted - 2009.03.19 00:07:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Business Ethics on 19/03/2009 00:09:53
Originally by: Dennmoth Ferdier
It's very hard to determine isk per hour income as a trader.
Since trading is very much an asynchronous activity* I feel that it's only fair to simply divide the profit generated by the entire time period in question.
For example, for the year-to-date I have made a profit of roughly 44m per hour.
It's like fishing really. Get enough poles in the water and it just becomes a numbers game. I spend 1-4 hours a day responding to alerts, making contracts, and updating orders. Maybe more on weekends. It's great fun 
*I suppose if one was only buying from sell orders to resell to buy orders than the conventional isk/hour model might be appropriate.
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Akemi Tarazon
Caldari
Hazardous Biatches
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.03.19 00:22:00 -
[21]
I'm not as high rollers living in MD as I wish I could ever be. But, I've traded after lvl 1 missions and that's what I most do when I am out into daylight. (takes about 15 mins to check my orders. you could see how much capital I am juggling around.  )
But I found out a unique challenge in growing size of my iskies. When I started this profession w/ 10mil in my hands, it was rather straightforward to double that. When I had 100mil in my hands, it became a little more challenging to double that. It seems to require more and more insight and knowledge to handle iskies as it grows in digits. Once I thought I found a nice, niche opportunity I could enjoy, it would be gone after few days by others found the same.
How do you folks handle all that? I mean having a pocket as deep as a few hundreds bn and still churning 20% outcome every week or so? Just glimpse of you sight might help me going down a long way.
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adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
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Posted - 2009.03.19 00:46:00 -
[22]
Edited by: adriaans on 19/03/2009 00:48:32
it varies a LOT, i started with 500 mill, 46 hours and 27 minutes later (thats including sleep and breaks)(i had a 48 hour bet ) i had managed to cross the 3 billion isk mark, now 3 weeks later i've just passed 5 billion isk. there are days that are great and other days you will hardly make anything. (but it definitely is easier the more capital i have to use)
also, i should add, i don't use buy orders AT ALL, and i never stick to one item more than a few days (i prefer to have it all sold off within 4 days), so that is one of the reasons my income is rather up and down from day to day. and the limited amount of market slots i have is becoming an issue (too few!)
another thing, other than knowing my market extremely well, i hadn't done any trading before at all. (buying mins, building stuff, selling it, does not count)
The thing is, i found what i'm good at, mid/large scale higher risk trading/manipulation, the 'buy low, sell high' meh didn't work for me, 'buy it all, sell it for more, crash it, buy it all, sell for even more' works for me though, but i could manage the entire market where i trade in my sleep, thats why i (think) am doing rather well.
so,
**RESEARCH**
(lots of market watching (at least for me))
???
Profit!
btw, i havnt found a single use for spreadsheets... for manufacturing, deffo yeah (i already have made one for every item that can be manufactured in the game), but for trading...:S
not sure if the above is all coherent, but im tired 
-sig-
Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
Originally by: UMEE
if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail.
QFT! |
Ricdics
Tleilex Developments
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.19 00:50:00 -
[23]
I make 16.4m per day on Eve Holdem Poker |
Lucius Flaccus
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Posted - 2009.03.19 01:23:00 -
[24]
50mil per day averaged (somewhat over actually, but this would be a safe bet).
spend about 40 mins a day doing market orders split usually into one 'big update' (bulk of the time), and at least one smaller update (mostly putting stuff up for sale).
i am working now to increase this - with a few ideas in mind. the time spent updating is more or less fixed - i dont want to exceed it. while the markets are fun, they arent the main mechanic i enjoy.
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Yelan Zhou
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.19 03:35:00 -
[25]
Depends on the day, if I can get cheap goods etc etc....
100 to 500 millions profit per day.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.03.19 04:23:00 -
[26]
Trading is a combination between per time and percentual profit.
The more time you put into it, the better your percentage.
The more ISK you try to move, the lower your percentage.
Neither are linear, neither are constant in time.
Depending on time spent doing it, how well you do it and how much cash you have... you could me making OR LOSING billions in a day.
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Dreamwalker
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Posted - 2009.03.19 04:25:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Dreamwalker on 19/03/2009 04:24:58
I always start out with alot of isk and then end up with very little isk.
The funny thing is I'm doing it right 
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Local chat in known 0.0, low sec and empire space will remain as it is today, in all it's insta-intel giving, afk cloaker panic inducing, jita trade spamming glory.
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Ender2006
APOCALYPSE LEGION
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Posted - 2009.03.19 05:00:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Dreamwalker
Edited by: Dreamwalker on 19/03/2009 04:24:58
I always start out with alot of isk and then end up with very little isk.
The funny thing is I'm doing it right
This... definitely this.
To answer the OP:
Started spending serious time trading about 5-6 weeks ago to support our pvp corp. Averaging maybe 1b/week on 2-4bln in capitol. Keep it about that size since I can't manage more than that easily and even that takes maybe 5-20 hours of management. spreadsheet wars ftw.
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Kifor Hellhund
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Posted - 2009.03.19 05:11:00 -
[29]
One typo and it doesn't matter
protip: keep the bulk of your cash on an alt and only keep enough to run a day or twos operations on your trader.
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2009.03.19 05:38:00 -
[30]
I'm not quite sure how people are making a billion a week, especially on 40 minutes a day (wow!), but I spend about an hour or so a day (usually less) updating market orders and whatnot, and I make enough to buy a PLEX every month and have a hundred or two million extra that I either toss over to my main or roll into my business.
The nice thing about using the market is that the market is making money while you run your missions. Or sleep. Or work. Whatever. It's great.
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