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glas mir	Posted - 2009.03.20 08:43:00 - [31] I tend to set collateral above the market value of the goods I am shipping by 10-20%. More if I am shipping a small number of high value items. thus your "hauler scams" might actually be bad for the hauler not the contract creator. I do not know what statistic you are looking at but the sample might be too small over the time frame in other words it could be simple variance, one person with a lot of hauling contracts missing them or one big contract being failed - again I don't know exactly what you are measuring.
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.20 11:10:00 - [32] Edited by: Ji Sama on 20/03/2009 11:10:07 thanks for all the constructive replies :D i can see that 20% over sell price is the way to go.. ill guess i just have to accept the orders to go a little slower then... TMP Industries will start initiating hauling contracts again (today)... Also if anyone know a respectable hauling corp i would like to know about it... since we might offer a partnership of some sought... we operate in the TMP region.. all over.. hauling more than 5 million m3 per day... could haul more, but the contract system is really nerfed (whats with the 120K m3 maximum?) "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.20 11:12:00 - [33] Originally by: glas mir I tend to set collateral above the market value of the goods I am shipping by 10-20%. More if I am shipping a small number of high value items. thus your "hauler scams" might actually be bad for the hauler not the contract creator. I do not know what statistic you are looking at but the sample might be too small over the time frame in other words it could be simple variance, one person with a lot of hauling contracts missing them or one big contract being failed - again I don't know exactly what you are measuring. well im a really nice contractor... i always give them 14 days to complete even simpel hauling contracts.... my statistic is based on the fact that i never (almost) see a contract get broken and over the last few days i saw an increse (had about 5 contracts that was scammed, lost about 100-200 million) well lesson learned... thought most haulers where legit :D "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
Finnbar OReilly	Posted - 2009.03.23 01:18:00 - [34] Interestingly enough, I just ran into someone who accepts courier contracts just to break them. I don't often issue them myself, but this person accepted it. When I looked at his/her/its contract history, there were many, many failed courier contracts! So I guess there are some out there who just accept the contracts, "playing the lottery" as hesheit said. I bought my stuff back, and issued another contract. We'll see how that one goes.
Ms Delerium	Posted - 2009.03.23 01:34:00 - [35] I never accepted a courier contract as when I was a noob my CEO told me 99% of them are scams. And heard about the story of this random guy getting blown in the Charon cause the contractor and his buddies killed him on lowsec. So this means a high risk, a high collateral, and most of people just refuse it like I do!!! And now honestly explain why someone would set a courier contract from highsec to highsec and pay an awesome amount of isk, and wait for a big time, instead of doing it himself??? Yes I'm lost about courier contracts and I would like to learn about safe logistic tasks as in certain manner it attracts me
ingenting 20th Legion	Posted - 2009.03.23 01:49:00 - [36] Originally by: Ji Sama learn 2 read.. i said there was no one to blame but myself... its a scam when you accept a contract with the intent to break it... No, it's theft. _________________ - "Welcome to EVE, remember to insu BAAOOM... Told you, newb."
Sasha Kiki	Posted - 2009.03.23 02:34:00 - [37] Originally by: Ms Delerium I never accepted a courier contract as when I was a noob my CEO told me 99% of them are scams. And heard about the story of this random guy getting blown in the Charon cause the contractor and his buddies killed him on lowsec. So this means a high risk, a high collateral, and most of people just refuse it like I do!!! And now honestly explain why someone would set a courier contract from highsec to highsec and pay an awesome amount of isk, and wait for a big time, instead of doing it himself??? Yes I'm lost about courier contracts and I would like to learn about safe logistic tasks as in certain manner it attracts me Because hauling 500k m^3 of ore blows goats at 11k at a time.
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.23 04:41:00 - [38] Originally by: ingenting Originally by: Ji Sama learn 2 read.. i said there was no one to blame but myself... its a scam when you accept a contract with the intent to break it... No, it's theft. shoo troll... your limited brain capabilities are getting stressed to the max... i can clearly see that your simple understanding of the english language is to much for you ingenting.... define: scam victimize: deprive of by deceit; "He swindled me out of my inheritance"; "She defrauded the customers who trusted her"; "the cashier gypped me when he gave me too little change" a fraudulent business scheme define: business commercial enterprise: the activity of providing goods and services involving financial and commercial and industrial aspects; A business (also called firm or an enterprise) is a legally recognized organizational entity designed to provide goods and/or services to. define: scheme an elaborate and systematic plan of action devise a system or form a scheme for theft is stealing from my ore can, scam and fraud is amongst other; accepting a contract with the intent on breaking it... bbthxkkl2rn00b "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
Steve Thomas	Posted - 2009.03.23 04:47:00 - [39] I consider it theft when my shipments do not show up. part of the time its because the shipment blew up in transit. I consider it a scam when (for example) you set up a haul run to low sec/o.o with the intention of them loosing the shipment. **. . . . . . . .** Stop freaking worrying about why things the developerd did 5 years and more ago no longer make sence.
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.23 04:54:00 - [40] Originally by: Steve Thomas I consider it theft when my shipments do not show up. part of the time its because the shipment blew up in transit. I consider it a scam when (for example) you set up a haul run to low sec/o.o with the intention of them loosing the shipment. you have a point. the act of taking or reselling the stolen items are stealing and racketeering. what i argue is the accepting of a contract with the intent on dishonering the contract is a scam/fraud... "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
Yanna Karr Gallente Infinite Horizons	Posted - 2009.03.23 10:55:00 - [41] Had my first courier contract fail a few days ago, too (ammo & stuff - 25 jumps from Jita via high-sec). Made 5M :)
ingenting 20th Legion	Posted - 2009.03.23 18:38:00 - [42] Edited by: ingenting on 23/03/2009 18:38:34 Edited by: ingenting on 23/03/2009 18:38:02 Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: ingenting Originally by: Ji Sama learn 2 read.. i said there was no one to blame but myself... its a scam when you accept a contract with the intent to break it... No, it's theft. shoo troll... your limited brain capabilities are getting stressed to the max... i can clearly see that your simple understanding of the english language is to much for you ingenting.... define: scam victimize: deprive of by deceit; "He swindled me out of my inheritance"; "She defrauded the customers who trusted her"; "the cashier gypped me when he gave me too little change" a fraudulent business scheme define: business commercial enterprise: the activity of providing goods and services involving financial and commercial and industrial aspects; A business (also called firm or an enterprise) is a legally recognized organizational entity designed to provide goods and/or services to. define: scheme an elaborate and systematic plan of action devise a system or form a scheme for theft is stealing from my ore can, scam and fraud is amongst other; accepting a contract with the intent on breaking it... bbthxkkl2rn00b fail Quote: In criminal law, theft (also known as stealing or filching) is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent. You proved yourself wrong _________________ - "Welcome to EVE, remember to insu BAAOOM... Told you, newb."
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.23 19:43:00 - [43] Originally by: ingenting Edited by: ingenting on 23/03/2009 18:38:34 Edited by: ingenting on 23/03/2009 18:38:02 Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: ingenting Originally by: Ji Sama learn 2 read.. i said there was no one to blame but myself... its a scam when you accept a contract with the intent to break it... No, it's theft. shoo troll... your limited brain capabilities are getting stressed to the max... i can clearly see that your simple understanding of the english language is to much for you ingenting.... define: scam victimize: deprive of by deceit; "He swindled me out of my inheritance"; "She defrauded the customers who trusted her"; "the cashier gypped me when he gave me too little change" a fraudulent business scheme define: business commercial enterprise: the activity of providing goods and services involving financial and commercial and industrial aspects; A business (also called firm or an enterprise) is a legally recognized organizational entity designed to provide goods and/or services to. define: scheme an elaborate and systematic plan of action devise a system or form a scheme for theft is stealing from my ore can, scam and fraud is amongst other; accepting a contract with the intent on breaking it... bbthxkkl2rn00b fail Quote: In criminal law, theft (also known as stealing or filching) is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent. You proved yourself wrong your just to stupid to post... this is amazing.. you sir are a troll and you fail at posting... not once did i say that stealing another persons item wasnt theft, i **ing said that accepting a ing contract with the ing intent on ing breaking it, is a ing scam, get it through your **ed danish brain you little twit! stein bagger wasnt arrested for theft he was *ing arrested for FRAUD, because he SCAMMED... he didnt steal 500 million, he scammed his board of directors and used fraud to create fake contracts... "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"*
Kifor Hellhund	Posted - 2009.03.23 20:24:00 - [44] Edited by: Kifor Hellhund on 23/03/2009 20:24:52 Originally by: Ji Sama your just to stupid to post... this is amazing.. you sir are a troll and you fail at posting... not once did i say that stealing another persons item wasnt theft, i **ing said that accepting a ing contract with the ing intent on ing breaking it, is a ing scam, get it through your **ed danish brain you little twit! stein bagger wasnt arrested for theft he was **ing arrested for FRAUD, because he SCAMMED... he didnt steal 500 million, he scammed his board of directors and used fraud to create fake contracts... /hot //not mine
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.23 20:26:00 - [45] he just ***es me off, he is mad about something, mayby i ganked his bantam or something... this isnt the first time he does this, i remember him from way back... "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"*
StarShipAdmiral Gallente Interstellar Stormfront	Posted - 2009.03.24 02:00:00 - [46] yea there maybe a slight increase but that is normal wat do u expext from a game that has a worse changing economy than real life atleast in a my opinion All shall die while mining. No im joking im a miner.
Tasko Pal THE IRIS United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.24 02:01:00 - [47] Please stop calling it a "scam". There's no deception involved. Fraud and theft is what it is.
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.24 04:40:00 - [48] Originally by: Tasko Pal Please stop calling it a "scam". There's no deception involved. Fraud and theft is what it is. a fraudulent business scheme, please stop using alts... "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
Tasko Pal THE IRIS United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.24 04:54:00 - [49] Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: Tasko Pal Please stop calling it a "scam". There's no deception involved. Fraud and theft is what it is. a fraudulent business scheme, please stop using alts... I use forum post alts as would anyone who doesn't want the kind of heat that you can get from asking certain questions with your main. But I haven't used one in this thread. Second, fraud doesn't equal scam. Scamming is a subcategory of fraud that involves the scammer presenting a deceptive trade or offer to a mark. For example, I make a contract where I appear to be offering to buy a CNR for 400 mil (even the description say "WTB CNR@400 mil!", but the contract actually gives me both the CNR and 400 mil from your wallet. If you aren't paying attention, you can lose twice. When I accept a contract and intentionally break it, I am not scamming. There's no interaction between you and me (aside from the acceptance of your courier contract), hence no opportunity for me to deceive you as to my intentions or the value of my goods or services. I just fail to deliver.
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.24 05:00:00 - [50] i respect your definition :D but i disagree, scam is a fraud is a...... anyways i see your point :D its just the troll ingenting that ticks me off, we have something called janteloven in denmark, an this troll clearly think that this jantelov (lov = law) is the shiatz... "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
ingenting 20th Legion	Posted - 2009.03.24 14:53:00 - [51] Edited by: ingenting on 24/03/2009 14:53:38 Originally by: Ji Sama your just to stupid to post... this is amazing.. you sir are a troll and you fail at posting... not once did i say that stealing another persons item wasnt theft, i **ing said that accepting a ing contract with the ing intent on ing breaking it, is a ing scam, get it through your **ed danish brain you little twit! stein bagger wasnt arrested for theft he was *ing arrested for FRAUD, because he SCAMMED... he didnt steal 500 million, he scammed his board of directors and used fraud to create fake contracts... u still dont get it... its like asking a trucker to transport your stuff, but instead he takes it for himself... theft. _________________ - "Welcome to EVE, remember to insu BAAOOM*... Told you, newb."
Dzil Caldari TankSox Industries	Posted - 2009.03.24 15:47:00 - [52] Originally by: ingenting Edited by: ingenting on 24/03/2009 14:53:38 u still dont get it... its like asking a trucker to transport your stuff, but instead he takes it for himself... theft. I guess it depends on whether you look at the contract system as a contract, or just as a game mechanic. If you see it as a contract, it's both: Fraud : trucker signs a contract agreeing to transport your goods from A to B. He never intends to follow through with that contract. Theft : not only does trucker fail to deliver your goods, he steals them. If you see it as purely a game mechanic, it's neither. You accept the contract by trading away the collateral for the goods, with the option to trade the goods back at another point for the collateral + reward. It's entirely your choice whether you want to do the second part, just like having stock options you don't have to exercise this choice. Anyways, it's all semantics, and really not worth the heat. Lesson learned - the contract system for couriers is only so useful. One must balance the need for speed, reliability, privacy, and cost - and there's a niche to be filled by a hauler corp that can make better guarantees than the freelancer.
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.24 15:53:00 - [53] Originally by: Dzil Originally by: ingenting Edited by: ingenting on 24/03/2009 14:53:38 u still dont get it... its like asking a trucker to transport your stuff, but instead he takes it for himself... theft. I guess it depends on whether you look at the contract system as a contract, or just as a game mechanic. If you see it as a contract, it's both: Fraud : trucker signs a contract agreeing to transport your goods from A to B. He never intends to follow through with that contract. Theft : not only does trucker fail to deliver your goods, he steals them. If you see it as purely a game mechanic, it's neither. You accept the contract by trading away the collateral for the goods, with the option to trade the goods back at another point for the collateral + reward. It's entirely your choice whether you want to do the second part, just like having stock options you don't have to exercise this choice. Anyways, it's all semantics, and really not worth the heat. Lesson learned - the contract system for couriers is only so useful. One must balance the need for speed, reliability, privacy, and cost - and there's a niche to be filled by a hauler corp that can make better guarantees than the freelancer. this.... thanks for clearing our point of difference... "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
Ramirez Betelgueze Gallente Hommes et Femmes	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:38:00 - [54] Just to have stated my opinion in this case at first, I'd like to say, that the main point shouldnt be that the hauler that breaks the contract is "such a bad person" ("scammer", "thief" or something) but that the person that gives out a contract with such a low collateral should do his/her homework better... The collateral is the sum that you define when giving out your contract, you don't have to have the money, you can set it freely so where's the point in not setting it to a higher value? -> Don't blame the "scamming" hauler, do your maths and calculate your collateral properly (which should be above the value of your items in my opinion. Or at least very close so you'd lose your items on the one hand but on the other save the time of selling them yourself). Now to the hauling: I use hauling contracts very often and I tend to never get broken contracts... Why? - I don't offer insane rewards for tours into little traveled systems but only between hubs or at least highsec systems. -> If you want to get stuff hauled, maybe get your stuff the one or two systems to the next hub first, at least to highsec, this way your contract gets far more serious. -> You can pay very low rewards if you send packages between the hubs since there are always traders traveling between (for example Jita - Oursulaert). Since your contract is just a bonbon filling their free space you also shouldnt feel bad about low reward. - I tend to always use cargo containers for my freight. At first I pack my cargo into the container, then I make my transport contract on the container. This way the hauler can look into the transport package but within the transport package he only sees my container which should prevent him from getting info about your goods. There might be ways to get info on the transported goods even when they're in containers but by now I don't know about them (maybe through cargo canners you can get the info... but I don't know since I have no experience as pirate). Putting into containers should be at least an idea to try for you I guess. (If someone knows how to look into containers within transport contracts, I'd be happy to get enlightened about this. If you have an idea how to make the contract even safer, let me know please)

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