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Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.18 20:34:00 - [1] Edited by: Ji Sama on 18/03/2009 20:34:59 I am seeing an increase in hauler scams, it has happened over the last couple of days... i see alot of collatoral payments (about 2%, up from less than 0.1%) is anyone else seeing something like this? i can see its the batches that has tier 4 items that get lost :( guess i shold raise collatoral then... "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
Dzil Caldari Apache Research Team	Posted - 2009.03.18 20:38:00 - [2] A part of me wants to courier tritanium in circles around Jita with high collateral, just to see who gets curious enough to pay to open the package. Scam the scammer, and all that.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2009.03.19 00:05:00 - [3] Originally by: Dzil A part of me wants to courier tritanium in circles around Jita with high collateral, just to see who gets curious enough to pay to open the package. Scam the scammer, and all that. Save yourself the bother - people can look inside the packages without breaking them. --- 20:1 mineral compression ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule
Fleshbot	Posted - 2009.03.19 00:14:00 - [4] Save yourself the bother - people can look inside the packages without breaking them. Wha!? How do you do that?
Zero Uptick	Posted - 2009.03.19 00:21:00 - [5] Edited by: Zero Uptick on 19/03/2009 00:22:04 there are 2 options when right-clicking a courier package, one of them "breaks" it open, failing the contract, the other simply opens it like any old container, without any penalty whatsoever old idea thread with dev response
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2009.03.19 02:59:00 - [6] Originally by: Zero Uptick Edited by: Zero Uptick on 19/03/2009 00:22:04 there are 2 options when right-clicking a courier package, one of them "breaks" it open, failing the contract, the other simply opens it like any old container, without any penalty whatsoever old idea thread with dev response It only took four responses before someone who knows courier contracts to post. You can peak inside the package to see what it is. "Breaking the seal" (heh) gives you the contents. Much like a new stereo there is no way to fit it back inside the package. There are some other tricks that can be done to scam the collateral but there's no point encouraging that discussion or giving people ideas. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.19 08:41:00 - [7] Edited by: Ji Sama on 19/03/2009 08:42:00 well as a consequence we have cancelled all hauling contracts pending an investigation... "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
Business Ethics	Posted - 2009.03.19 09:17:00 - [8] You're not really being victimized here though if you set your collateral properly. Heck if I could have 100% of my courier contracts failed by the couriers it'd be half-less work for me with the same profits! But they just keep on making deliveries I did have a big 250m collateral payout tonight, but it was the first one in weeks.
KingCappo Seigers of Doom	Posted - 2009.03.19 12:29:00 - [9] Originally by: Business Ethics You're not really being victimized here though if you set your collateral properly. Heck if I could have 100% of my courier contracts failed by the couriers it'd be half-less work for me with the same profits! But they just keep on making deliveries I did have a big 250m collateral payout tonight, but it was the first one in weeks. This. I love when people break my courier contracts, because i get to avoid the hassle of having to sell the stuff myself.
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.19 12:59:00 - [10] well i haul alot, and when i haul as much as i do, i need to keep the haulers happy, and when we are talking sums in the hundreds of million, i tend to cut of some. that way ill get a hauler to take the contract faster, same reason my payouts are bigger, so they actually make money hauling for me... but you are right, no one to blame but myself.. the reason for writing is that i saw an increase of several hundred percent over the last few days... "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
Johnny Rockefeller Builders League United	Posted - 2009.03.19 13:29:00 - [11] Originally by: Ji Sama well i haul alot, and when i haul as much as i do, i need to keep the haulers happy, and when we are talking sums in the hundreds of million, i tend to cut of some. that way ill get a hauler to take the contract faster, same reason my payouts are bigger, so they actually make money hauling for me... but you are right, no one to blame but myself.. the reason for writing is that i saw an increase of several hundred percent over the last few days... Psh, any decent hauler has plenty to cover your collateral, and as long as it's not obvious-suicide-gank-setup high, won't mind if it's on the steep side, especially if your pay is reasonable. As for losing a shipment, I would love for that to happen, considering I usually set the collateral to a good bit more than the items are worth because I'm too lazy to alt-tab to my spreadsheet and don't want to risk making it too low.
ingenting Cohors Alaria	Posted - 2009.03.19 13:48:00 - [12] It's not a scam. Learn to set the right collateral. _________________ - "Welcome to EVE, remember to insu BAAOOM... Told you, newb."
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.19 14:38:00 - [13] learn 2 read.. i said there was no one to blame but myself... its a scam when you accept a contract with the intent to break it... "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
Tasko Pal THE IRIS United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.19 18:42:00 - [14] Wait a minute, are you complaining because someone is offering unusually high reward for courier contracts? Or is this an attempt to sniff out somebody's trade alts?
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.19 19:03:00 - [15] is that to me? if so it makes no sense... i reward handsomely any hauler that have worked for me will agree to that... my contracts are very generous... what i did wrong, was lower my collateral just around 5-10 sometimes 15 percent, to get the contract fired off faster... i havent lost more than a couple of millions perhaps 50 million so its really peanuts, the point of the OP is if anyone else has seen an increase over the last few days.... "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
Linda Tradition	Posted - 2009.03.19 19:12:00 - [16] well i've got the problem that people accusing me to scam. this is totally wiered. im setting up contract, usally with more then 0.8-2% reward. after that i link the contract in local 1x and hope for a fast transit. most of the time, there are some guys "lol"ing me, accusing me a spammer, or telling that it wouldnt be worth the time. so k, does guys have no idea how courier conracts for and how you can make profit on ways wo usally would go empty. but this really destroys reputation. i dunno why, but for me it seams like, courier contracts are suspect for the mass of the pilots out there. anyone can share this experience?
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.19 19:17:00 - [17] Edited by: Ji Sama on 19/03/2009 19:17:32 yes i have been accused of scam in local aswell when looking for haulers... quite funny that you would highsec gank someone elses freigter in your indy, carying your lootz.... well, i tend to think they arent really people but troll algorythms placed by an entity known as the one.! "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.03.19 19:45:00 - [18] Getting accused of scamming is par for the course if you run a lot of legit courier contracts. Not a day goes by that there aren't at least 2 or 3 mails in my inbox regarding the matter
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.19 19:59:00 - [19] i see, thanks for sharing that.. i just thought my old troll karma was cathing up with me! "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
lacal Minmatar Vir Honns Lackeys	Posted - 2009.03.19 20:04:00 - [20] Just a quick post about high collateral I recently had to get a crystal implant set shipped 26 jumps across empire, paid 1.9bill so set collateral at 2.2bill, enough to replace even allowing for price fluctuations. It was the first ever courier contract I have set up, had no idea what to set the reward at so plumped for 50Mill. My concern was that someone with 2.2Bill hanging about in their wallet wasnt going to bother with a contract for 50Mill reward so jumped over to the WTS forum and put up a post 'advertising' it - I neednt have bothered, the contract was accepted with 10 minutes of me putting it up and before I even posted on the forums. I suppose the point of my rambling is that as long as the reward is worth it it doesnt matter what you set the collateral to - someone will take the contract! Unless of course I was just lucky.
Finnbar OReilly	Posted - 2009.03.19 20:08:00 - [21] I made my first billion doing courier contracts, alot of it while AFK. It wasn't until I was able to afford the higher collaterals that I was introduced to the scourge of suicide ganking. But it was always pretty easy to spot a scam attempt - a ridiculously high reward, with a high collateral, going through a known gate-camped system, like the many going from Jita to EC-P8R. Sometimes it's fun to ninja haul the stuff and get the high reward just to stiff the scammer. I did one into 0.0 with a 600 million isk reward once, which was pretty exciting. But nothing going from hi-sec to hi-sec can reasonably be considered a scam. vOv
Dire Radiant	Posted - 2009.03.19 20:17:00 - [22] Assume the smart hauler will always compare the collateral and reward loss against the package sell, if there is a larger profit to be made off breaking the package they should do it. No scam there, just smart business sense.
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.19 20:31:00 - [23] Edited by: Ji Sama on 19/03/2009 20:31:20 really i am not your english teacher: google define scam please: a fraudulent business scheme/Fraudulent deal; To defraud or embezzle to the poster that talked about higher reward.. you might be right, but i am trading mostly low cost items in extreme bulks... i cant offer bigger cuts than i already am ;) good advise though, and i dont think you where just lucky... but i am creating contracts with the idea of making profits :p "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.19 20:33:00 - [24] and i dont think its smart business to scam anyone... not in the long run.... i am hoping to build a reputation... a scammer will never recover, he has to reroll... "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
adriaans Amarr Ankaa.	Posted - 2009.03.19 21:08:00 - [25] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Getting accused of scamming is par for the course if you run a lot of legit courier contracts. Not a day goes by that there aren't at least 2 or 3 mails in my inbox regarding the matter same with me, i usually get someone shouting that at my legit curior contracts (i tend to pay more and have high value stuff, so might be why, but time is important to me) every day. they usually gets completed fast enough though. to op, never ever set collateral too low, i usually set it +20% over value. that way you'll never have any problems. -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr! Originally by: UMEE if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail. QFT!
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.19 21:56:00 - [26] rgr that, no more gambling with collatoral.... "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
lacal Minmatar Vir Honns Lackeys	Posted - 2009.03.20 00:56:00 - [27] Originally by: Ji Sama to the poster that talked about higher reward.. you might be right, but i am trading mostly low cost items in extreme bulks... i cant offer bigger cuts than i already am ;) good advise though, and i dont think you where just lucky... but i am creating contracts with the idea of making profits :p Yeah sry , that was me - i didnt think of my contract as a higher reward but on working it out its about a 2.2% cut of the collateral - spose as you've figured set the collateral so that youre covering your loss of profits and alls good
Tauranon Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2009.03.20 01:03:00 - [28] Originally by: Dire Radiant Assume the smart hauler will always compare the collateral and reward loss against the package sell, if there is a larger profit to be made off breaking the package they should do it. No scam there, just smart business sense. Goodbye repeat business.
Vested Interest	Posted - 2009.03.20 02:35:00 - [29] Originally by: Tauranon Goodbye repeat business. What does this even mean? How do you propose to stop someone from accepting your (public) courier jobs?
Selina Candor Chernobyl Trading Corporation	Posted - 2009.03.20 03:46:00 - [30] Originally by: Vested Interest Originally by: Tauranon Goodbye repeat business. What does this even mean? How do you propose to stop someone from accepting your (public) courier jobs? This would only work if one had contracted one of the dedicated freight companies but those have a rep to keep and wont work that way. I tend to set my collateral to about 20% markup of my expected sale price. Imagine my surprise and delight when one failed.
glas mir	Posted - 2009.03.20 08:43:00 - [31] I tend to set collateral above the market value of the goods I am shipping by 10-20%. More if I am shipping a small number of high value items. thus your "hauler scams" might actually be bad for the hauler not the contract creator. I do not know what statistic you are looking at but the sample might be too small over the time frame in other words it could be simple variance, one person with a lot of hauling contracts missing them or one big contract being failed - again I don't know exactly what you are measuring.
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.20 11:10:00 - [32] Edited by: Ji Sama on 20/03/2009 11:10:07 thanks for all the constructive replies :D i can see that 20% over sell price is the way to go.. ill guess i just have to accept the orders to go a little slower then... TMP Industries will start initiating hauling contracts again (today)... Also if anyone know a respectable hauling corp i would like to know about it... since we might offer a partnership of some sought... we operate in the TMP region.. all over.. hauling more than 5 million m3 per day... could haul more, but the contract system is really nerfed (whats with the 120K m3 maximum?) "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.20 11:12:00 - [33] Originally by: glas mir I tend to set collateral above the market value of the goods I am shipping by 10-20%. More if I am shipping a small number of high value items. thus your "hauler scams" might actually be bad for the hauler not the contract creator. I do not know what statistic you are looking at but the sample might be too small over the time frame in other words it could be simple variance, one person with a lot of hauling contracts missing them or one big contract being failed - again I don't know exactly what you are measuring. well im a really nice contractor... i always give them 14 days to complete even simpel hauling contracts.... my statistic is based on the fact that i never (almost) see a contract get broken and over the last few days i saw an increse (had about 5 contracts that was scammed, lost about 100-200 million) well lesson learned... thought most haulers where legit :D "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
Finnbar OReilly	Posted - 2009.03.23 01:18:00 - [34] Interestingly enough, I just ran into someone who accepts courier contracts just to break them. I don't often issue them myself, but this person accepted it. When I looked at his/her/its contract history, there were many, many failed courier contracts! So I guess there are some out there who just accept the contracts, "playing the lottery" as hesheit said. I bought my stuff back, and issued another contract. We'll see how that one goes.
Ms Delerium	Posted - 2009.03.23 01:34:00 - [35] I never accepted a courier contract as when I was a noob my CEO told me 99% of them are scams. And heard about the story of this random guy getting blown in the Charon cause the contractor and his buddies killed him on lowsec. So this means a high risk, a high collateral, and most of people just refuse it like I do!!! And now honestly explain why someone would set a courier contract from highsec to highsec and pay an awesome amount of isk, and wait for a big time, instead of doing it himself??? Yes I'm lost about courier contracts and I would like to learn about safe logistic tasks as in certain manner it attracts me
ingenting 20th Legion	Posted - 2009.03.23 01:49:00 - [36] Originally by: Ji Sama learn 2 read.. i said there was no one to blame but myself... its a scam when you accept a contract with the intent to break it... No, it's theft. _________________ - "Welcome to EVE, remember to insu BAAOOM... Told you, newb."
Sasha Kiki	Posted - 2009.03.23 02:34:00 - [37] Originally by: Ms Delerium I never accepted a courier contract as when I was a noob my CEO told me 99% of them are scams. And heard about the story of this random guy getting blown in the Charon cause the contractor and his buddies killed him on lowsec. So this means a high risk, a high collateral, and most of people just refuse it like I do!!! And now honestly explain why someone would set a courier contract from highsec to highsec and pay an awesome amount of isk, and wait for a big time, instead of doing it himself??? Yes I'm lost about courier contracts and I would like to learn about safe logistic tasks as in certain manner it attracts me Because hauling 500k m^3 of ore blows goats at 11k at a time.
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.23 04:41:00 - [38] Originally by: ingenting Originally by: Ji Sama learn 2 read.. i said there was no one to blame but myself... its a scam when you accept a contract with the intent to break it... No, it's theft. shoo troll... your limited brain capabilities are getting stressed to the max... i can clearly see that your simple understanding of the english language is to much for you ingenting.... define: scam victimize: deprive of by deceit; "He swindled me out of my inheritance"; "She defrauded the customers who trusted her"; "the cashier gypped me when he gave me too little change" a fraudulent business scheme define: business commercial enterprise: the activity of providing goods and services involving financial and commercial and industrial aspects; A business (also called firm or an enterprise) is a legally recognized organizational entity designed to provide goods and/or services to. define: scheme an elaborate and systematic plan of action devise a system or form a scheme for theft is stealing from my ore can, scam and fraud is amongst other; accepting a contract with the intent on breaking it... bbthxkkl2rn00b "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
Steve Thomas	Posted - 2009.03.23 04:47:00 - [39] I consider it theft when my shipments do not show up. part of the time its because the shipment blew up in transit. I consider it a scam when (for example) you set up a haul run to low sec/o.o with the intention of them loosing the shipment. **. . . . . . . .** Stop freaking worrying about why things the developerd did 5 years and more ago no longer make sence.
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.23 04:54:00 - [40] Originally by: Steve Thomas I consider it theft when my shipments do not show up. part of the time its because the shipment blew up in transit. I consider it a scam when (for example) you set up a haul run to low sec/o.o with the intention of them loosing the shipment. you have a point. the act of taking or reselling the stolen items are stealing and racketeering. what i argue is the accepting of a contract with the intent on dishonering the contract is a scam/fraud... "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
Yanna Karr Gallente Infinite Horizons	Posted - 2009.03.23 10:55:00 - [41] Had my first courier contract fail a few days ago, too (ammo & stuff - 25 jumps from Jita via high-sec). Made 5M :)
ingenting 20th Legion	Posted - 2009.03.23 18:38:00 - [42] Edited by: ingenting on 23/03/2009 18:38:34 Edited by: ingenting on 23/03/2009 18:38:02 Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: ingenting Originally by: Ji Sama learn 2 read.. i said there was no one to blame but myself... its a scam when you accept a contract with the intent to break it... No, it's theft. shoo troll... your limited brain capabilities are getting stressed to the max... i can clearly see that your simple understanding of the english language is to much for you ingenting.... define: scam victimize: deprive of by deceit; "He swindled me out of my inheritance"; "She defrauded the customers who trusted her"; "the cashier gypped me when he gave me too little change" a fraudulent business scheme define: business commercial enterprise: the activity of providing goods and services involving financial and commercial and industrial aspects; A business (also called firm or an enterprise) is a legally recognized organizational entity designed to provide goods and/or services to. define: scheme an elaborate and systematic plan of action devise a system or form a scheme for theft is stealing from my ore can, scam and fraud is amongst other; accepting a contract with the intent on breaking it... bbthxkkl2rn00b fail Quote: In criminal law, theft (also known as stealing or filching) is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent. You proved yourself wrong _________________ - "Welcome to EVE, remember to insu BAAOOM... Told you, newb."
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.23 19:43:00 - [43] Originally by: ingenting Edited by: ingenting on 23/03/2009 18:38:34 Edited by: ingenting on 23/03/2009 18:38:02 Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: ingenting Originally by: Ji Sama learn 2 read.. i said there was no one to blame but myself... its a scam when you accept a contract with the intent to break it... No, it's theft. shoo troll... your limited brain capabilities are getting stressed to the max... i can clearly see that your simple understanding of the english language is to much for you ingenting.... define: scam victimize: deprive of by deceit; "He swindled me out of my inheritance"; "She defrauded the customers who trusted her"; "the cashier gypped me when he gave me too little change" a fraudulent business scheme define: business commercial enterprise: the activity of providing goods and services involving financial and commercial and industrial aspects; A business (also called firm or an enterprise) is a legally recognized organizational entity designed to provide goods and/or services to. define: scheme an elaborate and systematic plan of action devise a system or form a scheme for theft is stealing from my ore can, scam and fraud is amongst other; accepting a contract with the intent on breaking it... bbthxkkl2rn00b fail Quote: In criminal law, theft (also known as stealing or filching) is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent. You proved yourself wrong your just to stupid to post... this is amazing.. you sir are a troll and you fail at posting... not once did i say that stealing another persons item wasnt theft, i **ing said that accepting a ing contract with the ing intent on ing breaking it, is a ing scam, get it through your **ed danish brain you little twit! stein bagger wasnt arrested for theft he was *ing arrested for FRAUD, because he SCAMMED... he didnt steal 500 million, he scammed his board of directors and used fraud to create fake contracts... "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"*
Kifor Hellhund	Posted - 2009.03.23 20:24:00 - [44] Edited by: Kifor Hellhund on 23/03/2009 20:24:52 Originally by: Ji Sama your just to stupid to post... this is amazing.. you sir are a troll and you fail at posting... not once did i say that stealing another persons item wasnt theft, i **ing said that accepting a ing contract with the ing intent on ing breaking it, is a ing scam, get it through your **ed danish brain you little twit! stein bagger wasnt arrested for theft he was **ing arrested for FRAUD, because he SCAMMED... he didnt steal 500 million, he scammed his board of directors and used fraud to create fake contracts... /hot //not mine
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.23 20:26:00 - [45] he just ***es me off, he is mad about something, mayby i ganked his bantam or something... this isnt the first time he does this, i remember him from way back... "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"*
StarShipAdmiral Gallente Interstellar Stormfront	Posted - 2009.03.24 02:00:00 - [46] yea there maybe a slight increase but that is normal wat do u expext from a game that has a worse changing economy than real life atleast in a my opinion All shall die while mining. No im joking im a miner.
Tasko Pal THE IRIS United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.24 02:01:00 - [47] Please stop calling it a "scam". There's no deception involved. Fraud and theft is what it is.
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.24 04:40:00 - [48] Originally by: Tasko Pal Please stop calling it a "scam". There's no deception involved. Fraud and theft is what it is. a fraudulent business scheme, please stop using alts... "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
Tasko Pal THE IRIS United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.24 04:54:00 - [49] Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: Tasko Pal Please stop calling it a "scam". There's no deception involved. Fraud and theft is what it is. a fraudulent business scheme, please stop using alts... I use forum post alts as would anyone who doesn't want the kind of heat that you can get from asking certain questions with your main. But I haven't used one in this thread. Second, fraud doesn't equal scam. Scamming is a subcategory of fraud that involves the scammer presenting a deceptive trade or offer to a mark. For example, I make a contract where I appear to be offering to buy a CNR for 400 mil (even the description say "WTB CNR@400 mil!", but the contract actually gives me both the CNR and 400 mil from your wallet. If you aren't paying attention, you can lose twice. When I accept a contract and intentionally break it, I am not scamming. There's no interaction between you and me (aside from the acceptance of your courier contract), hence no opportunity for me to deceive you as to my intentions or the value of my goods or services. I just fail to deliver.
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.24 05:00:00 - [50] i respect your definition :D but i disagree, scam is a fraud is a...... anyways i see your point :D its just the troll ingenting that ticks me off, we have something called janteloven in denmark, an this troll clearly think that this jantelov (lov = law) is the shiatz... "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
ingenting 20th Legion	Posted - 2009.03.24 14:53:00 - [51] Edited by: ingenting on 24/03/2009 14:53:38 Originally by: Ji Sama your just to stupid to post... this is amazing.. you sir are a troll and you fail at posting... not once did i say that stealing another persons item wasnt theft, i **ing said that accepting a ing contract with the ing intent on ing breaking it, is a ing scam, get it through your **ed danish brain you little twit! stein bagger wasnt arrested for theft he was *ing arrested for FRAUD, because he SCAMMED... he didnt steal 500 million, he scammed his board of directors and used fraud to create fake contracts... u still dont get it... its like asking a trucker to transport your stuff, but instead he takes it for himself... theft. _________________ - "Welcome to EVE, remember to insu BAAOOM*... Told you, newb."
Dzil Caldari TankSox Industries	Posted - 2009.03.24 15:47:00 - [52] Originally by: ingenting Edited by: ingenting on 24/03/2009 14:53:38 u still dont get it... its like asking a trucker to transport your stuff, but instead he takes it for himself... theft. I guess it depends on whether you look at the contract system as a contract, or just as a game mechanic. If you see it as a contract, it's both: Fraud : trucker signs a contract agreeing to transport your goods from A to B. He never intends to follow through with that contract. Theft : not only does trucker fail to deliver your goods, he steals them. If you see it as purely a game mechanic, it's neither. You accept the contract by trading away the collateral for the goods, with the option to trade the goods back at another point for the collateral + reward. It's entirely your choice whether you want to do the second part, just like having stock options you don't have to exercise this choice. Anyways, it's all semantics, and really not worth the heat. Lesson learned - the contract system for couriers is only so useful. One must balance the need for speed, reliability, privacy, and cost - and there's a niche to be filled by a hauler corp that can make better guarantees than the freelancer.
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.03.24 15:53:00 - [53] Originally by: Dzil Originally by: ingenting Edited by: ingenting on 24/03/2009 14:53:38 u still dont get it... its like asking a trucker to transport your stuff, but instead he takes it for himself... theft. I guess it depends on whether you look at the contract system as a contract, or just as a game mechanic. If you see it as a contract, it's both: Fraud : trucker signs a contract agreeing to transport your goods from A to B. He never intends to follow through with that contract. Theft : not only does trucker fail to deliver your goods, he steals them. If you see it as purely a game mechanic, it's neither. You accept the contract by trading away the collateral for the goods, with the option to trade the goods back at another point for the collateral + reward. It's entirely your choice whether you want to do the second part, just like having stock options you don't have to exercise this choice. Anyways, it's all semantics, and really not worth the heat. Lesson learned - the contract system for couriers is only so useful. One must balance the need for speed, reliability, privacy, and cost - and there's a niche to be filled by a hauler corp that can make better guarantees than the freelancer. this.... thanks for clearing our point of difference... "the majority of men has been dealt cards to a game they do not know how to play"
Ramirez Betelgueze Gallente Hommes et Femmes	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:38:00 - [54] Just to have stated my opinion in this case at first, I'd like to say, that the main point shouldnt be that the hauler that breaks the contract is "such a bad person" ("scammer", "thief" or something) but that the person that gives out a contract with such a low collateral should do his/her homework better... The collateral is the sum that you define when giving out your contract, you don't have to have the money, you can set it freely so where's the point in not setting it to a higher value? -> Don't blame the "scamming" hauler, do your maths and calculate your collateral properly (which should be above the value of your items in my opinion. Or at least very close so you'd lose your items on the one hand but on the other save the time of selling them yourself). Now to the hauling: I use hauling contracts very often and I tend to never get broken contracts... Why? - I don't offer insane rewards for tours into little traveled systems but only between hubs or at least highsec systems. -> If you want to get stuff hauled, maybe get your stuff the one or two systems to the next hub first, at least to highsec, this way your contract gets far more serious. -> You can pay very low rewards if you send packages between the hubs since there are always traders traveling between (for example Jita - Oursulaert). Since your contract is just a bonbon filling their free space you also shouldnt feel bad about low reward. - I tend to always use cargo containers for my freight. At first I pack my cargo into the container, then I make my transport contract on the container. This way the hauler can look into the transport package but within the transport package he only sees my container which should prevent him from getting info about your goods. There might be ways to get info on the transported goods even when they're in containers but by now I don't know about them (maybe through cargo canners you can get the info... but I don't know since I have no experience as pirate). Putting into containers should be at least an idea to try for you I guess. (If someone knows how to look into containers within transport contracts, I'd be happy to get enlightened about this. If you have an idea how to make the contract even safer, let me know please)

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