EVE Search - T3 ship prices and risk vs. reward...

Check My IP Information

All Channels

EVE General Discussion

T3 ship prices and risk vs. reward...

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.22 12:25:00 - [1] Simply put: how do the developers expect T3 ships to ever be reasonably priced, particularly considering their level or performance (or lack thereof). If you consider the time cost involved in doing any other activity in Eve that makes ISK, particularly Level 4 missions, that allow a player to generate ISK in complete safety and then look at the considerable risk and time cost of procuring all the associated materials and items required for the production, are players really going to give the stuff away out of the goodness of their hearts simply to make T3 ships cheap and plentiful? There is no greater risk in Eve than the w-space environments. The devs have done a really good job at ensuring that traditional farming techniques fall flat on their face when applied to Sleeper NPCs. What this means in practical application is that a lot of man hours are going to be required to produce the results needed, and having live people behind the production means that those people are going to want to get paid, a lot. If players are always able to generate a certain amount of ISK/hour, particularly by themselves, with little effort and little to no risk, then they're going to demand a much higher rate of return for their time when they have to risk a considerable amount of ISK, are inconvenienced by the hassle of w-space logistics (you can't just come and go as you please, run to trade centers when you need something etc.) and to top it all off there is the issue of implants and training time, where most players choose to use no implants, or lesser implants, and this reduces the amount of SP/hour earned when compared to sitting around with +5s in your head while they're running missions semi-afk for hours on end. No, this isn't a thread about nerfing L4 missions. It's about trying to understand how the devs think that T3 ships will ever be as cheap as or less expensive than T2, considering that their performance isn't that impressive and demand for them will be fairly low in view of their cost. Players will be in w-space as long as there are massive profits to be made to offset the risks involved, but once that goes away those same players will go back to doing whatever it was they were doing before w-space came along. An equilibrium point will be reached, but I think that point will be very high (from a T3 price standpoint) simply because it's too much effort to produce the T3 ships to make ISK when compared to other easier and less risky occupations. T3 will never be very cheap, and T3 ship performance will never be worth the cost and the risk when flying them. How do we fix this? Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bigpimping Pimp Inc.	Posted - 2009.03.22 12:35:00 - [2] I love you... ________________________________________ He who pimps, is God...
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.03.22 12:45:00 - [3] That point was stressed quite a bit when Apocrypha got on Singularity, but CCP didn't listen much. An increase in the output of gaz harvesting, and that's it. Of course that's far from being enough... I'm waiting a few more weeks to see how it evolve before making a post like yours... Still, the relative lack of BPCs on contracts and T3-related threads in the sell forum is pretty telling, isn't it? ------------------------------------------
Prontifex THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2009.03.22 12:45:00 - [4] Bellum/thread
Azirapheal Amarr Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2009.03.22 12:52:00 - [5] to be honest i dont mind the costs. the highsec bears that grind missions all day will carry on doing so. i view w-space as more of a bit of fun and something new. found a wormhole from minmatar empire space. to right next door to the goons home system in pr- anyway, as i was going to say. the cost of producing these ships will easilly be met by the risk free highsec bears. who will in all likelyness stick to their cnr's for grinding missions. i predict t3 becoming vastly overpriced on markets, but corps and alliances banding together to produce them for their own in concentrated ops
Zaraki KenpachiSan	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:02:00 - [6] Edited by: Zaraki KenpachiSan on 22/03/2009 13:01:47 Originally by: Bellum Eternus It's about trying to understand how the devs think that T3 ships will ever be as cheap as or less expensive than T2 And why exactly should t3 be as cheap as t2? Devs stated that t3 must be an elite class: when you meet one in a fight you must say "oh f*k a t3 ship". That was the initial concept of t2, but it failed, so t3: extremely expensive in term of isk and risky in term of skills loss.
CAREBEAR SPY	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:07:00 - [7] hey guys!!! how r u all? im super thx 4 askin!!! omg i totally agree w/ u. i think that tech 3 should be cheaper n easier to make. theres no fun n playin a game where u cant buy nothin!!! teh biggest think 2 remove is teh skillpoint loss penality if u accidently blow ur ship up. y would i wanna risk a ship thats gonna make me dumber if i blow it up? idk but ill personally never play tech 3 unless they get some changes on it. o well!!! lol ccp aint gonna change it so there aint no use cryin!!! lol hugs n kisses
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:07:00 - [8] Originally by: Azirapheal to be honest i dont mind the costs. the highsec bears that grind missions all day will carry on doing so. i view w-space as more of a bit of fun and something new. found a wormhole from minmatar empire space. to right next door to the goons home system in pr- anyway, as i was going to say. the cost of producing these ships will easilly be met by the risk free highsec bears. who will in all likelyness stick to their cnr's for grinding missions. i predict t3 becoming vastly overpriced on markets, but corps and alliances banding together to produce them for their own in concentrated ops What is your point exactly? You're not making any sense. You're saying that high priced T3 ships aren't a problem and that it's ok because 'alliances will just make them for themselves'? Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:09:00 - [9] Originally by: Zaraki KenpachiSan Edited by: Zaraki KenpachiSan on 22/03/2009 13:01:47 Originally by: Bellum Eternus It's about trying to understand how the devs think that T3 ships will ever be as cheap as or less expensive than T2 And why exactly should t3 be as cheap as t2? Devs stated that t3 must be an elite class: when you meet one in a fight you must say "oh f*k a t3 ship". That was the initial concept of t2, but it failed, so t3: extremely expensive in term of isk and risky in term of skills loss. Because the Dev have stated that the projected price of T3 is equivalent to T2.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:10:00 - [10] Originally by: Zaraki KenpachiSan Edited by: Zaraki KenpachiSan on 22/03/2009 13:01:47 Originally by: Bellum Eternus It's about trying to understand how the devs think that T3 ships will ever be as cheap as or less expensive than T2 And why exactly should t3 be as cheap as t2? Devs stated that t3 must be an elite class: when you meet one in a fight you must say "oh fk a t3 ship". That was the initial concept of t2, but it failed, so t3: extremely expensive in term of isk and risky in term of skills loss. I'm not saying that T3 should be as cheap/cheaper than T2. I'm saying that the performance should reflect the cost and risk involved with flying one. It's the DEVELOPERS who have said (repeatedly) that they want T3 ships to be less expensive than T2. Personally I'd like it very much if T3 ships were expensive, elite and OMGWTF when it comes to performance. But sadly, that won't ever happen. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.* Death of Virtue is Recruiting

Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:11:00 - [11] Originally by: Azirapheal i predict t3 becoming vastly overpriced on markets, but corps and alliances banding together to produce them for their own in concentrated ops That'...stupid. If T3 ships are worth billions, alliances won't give them to their members, they will sell them on the markets. Would you give Dreadnoughts to your members for 200 millions? Why would it be different for other expensive goods? ------------------------------------------
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:24:00 - [12] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Azirapheal i predict t3 becoming vastly overpriced on markets, but corps and alliances banding together to produce them for their own in concentrated ops That'...stupid. If T3 ships are worth billions, alliances won't give them to their members, they will sell them on the markets. Would you give Dreadnoughts to your members for 200 millions? Why would it be different for other expensive goods? So you get a gang of alliance mates together and between you, you get enough bits to build a t3 ship each. your alliance then steals them off you and puts them on the market. If i was you i'd quit such a ****e alliance and join a real one.
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:31:00 - [13] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Azirapheal to be honest i dont mind the costs. the highsec bears that grind missions all day will carry on doing so. i view w-space as more of a bit of fun and something new. found a wormhole from minmatar empire space. to right next door to the goons home system in pr- anyway, as i was going to say. the cost of producing these ships will easilly be met by the risk free highsec bears. who will in all likelyness stick to their cnr's for grinding missions. i predict t3 becoming vastly overpriced on markets, but corps and alliances banding together to produce them for their own in concentrated ops What is your point exactly? You're not making any sense. You're saying that high priced T3 ships aren't a problem and that it's ok because 'alliances will just make them for themselves'? To be quite honest, I agree. It's perfectly fine to have something that is expensive to the grinding alt, but a corp and alliance can band together and produce T3 ships very reasonably. I too doubt that T3 will ever get within range of T2. Mostly because I doubt that w-space will keep as many players as it has now, after all the risk-averse individuals get over the excitement and realize that they are STILL unhappy with being in danger. But the biggest lesson I'm taking from w-space is that it's for groups, not solo. Corporations, alliances, groups of friends ... these can achieve great things in w-space. The fact that the solo players might end up having to pay far more than the players who CAN work with others as a team? Doesn't bother me one bit. Even if I tend to play solo far more than not. Are you saying there's something wrong with providing content for groups that is impractical to obtain as a solo player? Originally by: 5pinDizzy Troll Score-o-Meter --------Failure----------\|\|\|-----------Succes------- 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1--0--1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10
Zaraki KenpachiSan	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:50:00 - [14] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Zaraki KenpachiSan Edited by: Zaraki KenpachiSan on 22/03/2009 13:01:47 Originally by: Bellum Eternus It's about trying to understand how the devs think that T3 ships will ever be as cheap as or less expensive than T2 And why exactly should t3 be as cheap as t2? Devs stated that t3 must be an elite class: when you meet one in a fight you must say "oh f*k a t3 ship". That was the initial concept of t2, but it failed, so t3: extremely expensive in term of isk and risky in term of skills loss. I'm not saying that T3 should be as cheap/cheaper than T2. I'm saying that the performance should reflect the cost and risk involved with flying one. It's the DEVELOPERS who have said (repeatedly) that they want T3 ships to be less expensive than T2. Personally I'd like it very much if T3 ships were expensive, elite and OMGWTF when it comes to performance. But sadly, that won't ever happen. That's right too and i agree.
Amael Galenus Mighty Moshin Emo Rangers	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:51:00 - [15] IMHO, the problem is that the drive for T3 is currently taking a back seat to PvP- once the initial thrill of w-space/Sleepers/exploration wears off, I think most people quickly realise that it's more proftable & fun (and occasionally easier) to hunt players in w-space rather than grind Sleeper sites. Maybe increasing the number of mag & radar sites would help- the potential for a ~100mil reward from a single site might tempt people back to site grinding rather than player hunting.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:58:00 - [16] Did you just compare a direct isk faucet (mission running, where isk is coming out of thin air) with an activity where the value of your labor is determined by peoples willingness to pay for your products? Tech 3 (and tech 2) ship have just about zero "real" isk value, if you disregard what little insurance you get when one of them blows up. It is outright silly trying to compare that to isk printing machines like mission whoring. IF you should complain about something it would be the difficulty of acquiring the materials to build the ships contra the abilities of the ship. Though I personally do not feel that anything is unbalanced in that regard. Btw. have you thought about, no matter the amount of mission whoring you will never be able to construct a tech 3 cruiser by the gains from the missions only? ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.03.22 14:08:00 - [17] If no one buys the ships, they get cheaper. The less worthwhile it is doing the wormholes, the less risky it becomes. It will all balance itself. P.S. Risk vs Reward is a lie. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Tsaya Azn Empire	Posted - 2009.03.22 14:10:00 - [18] Edited by: Tsaya on 22/03/2009 14:13:48 T2 production levels and costs are controlled by the large alliances, who set the price and availability for moon minerals. There is a limit to the quantity of moon minerals that can enter the market in any given time period and this is further restricted by warfare over the control of the moons. T3 production is currently limited only by 1) Scanning ability 2) The ships required to defeat Sleepers In the long run, T3 will become cheaper than T2 as the developers predicted. The argument that the reward is not worth the risk is valid currently, but the vast majority of people doing wormhole content are solo explorers or small gangs. Once people start to enter wormholes with a more significant presence to both handle Sleepers AND protect themselves against PvPers/pirates, then the risk will fall while the rewards only increase with time. Once the isk farmers work out how to exploit Sleeper rats to their benefit, you will see markets flooded with T3 components also, and since skill requirements are quite low for T3 ships, this will only increase the supply, and thus the price can go nowhere but down.
The Snowman Gallente Wurmz.	Posted - 2009.03.22 14:17:00 - [19] early days...early days.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.22 14:37:00 - [20] Re: T3 ship prices Dear CCP, we told you so Signed, the players. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK

Exlegion Caldari New Light	Posted - 2009.03.22 14:37:00 - [21] To be honest I saw this coming a mile away. And I commented on this on another thread. Pirates are having a field day with the players trying to gather up the pieces to build T3. It's too easy to kill "carebears" in W-space. It doesn't surprise me that pirates now complain on T3 not being easily available. You know what the solution is... But you won't want to hear it. So I'll just leave at that. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.22 14:39:00 - [22] Originally by: Jowen Datloran Did you just compare a direct isk faucet (mission running, where isk is coming out of thin air) with an activity where the value of your labor is determined by peoples willingness to pay for your products? Tech 3 (and tech 2) ship have just about zero "real" isk value, if you disregard what little insurance you get when one of them blows up. It is outright silly trying to compare that to isk printing machines like mission whoring. IF you should complain about something it would be the difficulty of acquiring the materials to build the ships contra the abilities of the ship. Though I personally do not feel that anything is unbalanced in that regard. Btw. have you thought about, no matter the amount of mission whoring you will never be able to construct a tech 3 cruiser by the gains from the missions only? You're completely wrong, and here's why: Everything in Eve has a time cost. In a manner of speaking, L4 missions artificially set an ISK/hour baseline. Doing anything else that provides less ISK/hour is inefficient and doing anything that has greater risk involved should offer enough of an increased incentive to make it worth that risk. So yes, you can directly compare (correctly so) missions with producing an item that has no 'real' cost and only player derived cost, simply because the amount of time put into producing said item should have a base price of that amount of time multiplied by the amount of ISK/hour the same person producing the item could have made while running missions. My point is that players are only going to operate in w-space as long as the profit justifies doing so, and players are only going to buy T3 ships as long as the price/performance justifies doing so. Consequently, if the T3 ship performance is crap, and it requires a huge amount of player effort to produce them, then they'll be overpriced while they don't perform and we'll end up with no one buying T3 in volume (note the qualifier) and the T3 prices will fall until players no longer find it worthwhile to produce them. Then all we see is a very small supply of T3 ships being produced to handle the small amount of residual demand and T3 ends up being similar to BlackOps or Electronic Attack Frigates: a low volume novelty item that nobody really uses in large numbers. What a waste of development time. Yet again, more content that a very small number of the player base will ever bother with. A complete waste of time in the long run. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.03.22 14:40:00 - [23] Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII So you get a gang of alliance mates together and between you, you get enough bits to build a t3 ship each. your alliance then steals them off you and puts them on the market. If i was you i'd quit such a **e alliance and join a real one. Ridiculous. If a corp op is done to do T3 exploration, the bits and pieces go to the corp. If individual players do it, the stuff is theirs. Nothing wrong with that. And "**e alliances", as you said, never achieve anything, because they can't keep their members. Insinutating TCF is one is...funny. ------------------------------------------
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.22 14:45:00 - [24] Originally by: Exlegion To be honest I saw this coming a mile away. And I commented on this on another thread. Pirates are having a field day with the players trying to gather up the pieces to build T3. It's too easy to kill "carebears" in W-space. It doesn't surprise me that pirates now complain on T3 not being easily available. You know what the solution is... But you won't want to hear it. So I'll just leave at that. LOL. You can't POSSIBLY be implying that it's PIRATES who are at fault for high T3 prices? Seriously?! Further more, I'm not complaining about high prices. Price has nothing to do with it. What I'm more interested in is having T3 ships become as prolific as T2, which with the current design they won't be. How many BlackOps have you killed in PVP? Maybe I'm asking the wrong person here as you clearly sound like some sissified pantywaist carebear, but I digress. I want to see T3 ships, and I want to see LOTS OF THEM. I want to see the new content used by the majority of PVP players out there. They shouldn't be some super rare exotic ship that has no performance and is relegated to a novelty. A good example of this is the Ashimuu- it's a rare and expensive faction ship who's performance is absolutely horrible, yet it has some interesting bonuses, if only the ship didn't totally suck ass. To wit: it's a waste of game design. It should be fixed. T3 should be fixed. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.03.22 14:57:00 - [25] Originally by: The Snowman early days...early days. This actually. Right now people are still gearing up for production, no baseline prices have been established. This entire thread is based on conjecture and nothing more. ===== Yeah, VC is back, and we have a bone to pick with you.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2009.03.22 15:03:00 - [26] Originally by: Tsaya T3 production is currently limited only by 1) Scanning ability 2) The ships required to defeat Sleepers In the long run, T3 will become cheaper than T2 as the developers predicted. So you're gonna try to tell me there's an infinite supply of Sleepers that never run out day-to-day? Cause last time I cleared a few sites they didn't come back. Sleepers aren't farmable. And the actual number of combat sites seem to be small in comparison to mining sites in most systems. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.22 15:06:00 - [27] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: The Snowman early days...early days. This actually. Right now people are still gearing up for production, no baseline prices have been established. This entire thread is based on conjecture and nothing more. Again, someone who is completely wrong. If you apply say, 40m ISK/hour as a baseline value for missioning in high sec (easily done) and then apply the number of man hours needed to create the materials and items needed to produce a T3 ship then it's base cost runs into the hundreds of millions of ISK. So no, it's not based off of blind conjecture. And I don't mind the complexity and effort required to produce the ships. Or the teamwork needed, or the risk involved. In my opinion that's the fun part. What bothers me is that with the current setup T3 ships will be astronomically expensive and they won't be worth the cost to use. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Tasko Pal THE IRIS United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.22 15:38:00 - [28] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: The Snowman early days...early days. This actually. Right now people are still gearing up for production, no baseline prices have been established. This entire thread is based on conjecture and nothing more. Again, someone who is completely wrong. If you apply say, 40m ISK/hour as a baseline value for missioning in high sec (easily done) and then apply the number of man hours needed to create the materials and items needed to produce a T3 ship then it's base cost runs into the hundreds of millions of ISK. So no, it's not based off of blind conjecture. And I don't mind the complexity and effort required to produce the ships. Or the teamwork needed, or the risk involved. In my opinion that's the fun part. What bothers me is that with the current setup T3 ships will be astronomically expensive and they won't be worth the cost to use. Stop wasting our time. You ignored that single people can run WH ratting gangs, that most people don't make 40 mil isk/hr, and that we including yourself don't have a clue where the price of these ships will stabilize. It's all blind conjecture.
Tsaya Azn Empire	Posted - 2009.03.22 15:39:00 - [29] Originally by: Wet Ferret Originally by: Tsaya T3 production is currently limited only by 1) Scanning ability 2) The ships required to defeat Sleepers In the long run, T3 will become cheaper than T2 as the developers predicted. So you're gonna try to tell me there's an infinite supply of Sleepers that never run out day-to-day? Cause last time I cleared a few sites they didn't come back. Sleepers aren't farmable. And the actual number of combat sites seem to be small in comparison to mining sites in most systems. how many of the top level sites have you cleared? :)
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.03.22 15:42:00 - [30] Originally by: Bellum Eternus It's the DEVELOPERS who have said (repeatedly) that they want T3 ships to be less expensive than T2. These would be the same developers who wanted rigs to be cheap enough to fit routinely on frigates, right? Whatever they may want, their willingness to balance their own systems in order to achieve those goals should not be counted upon. That said, I think it's too soon to panic about T3. It's going to take at least a year before anybody knows how close they get to their design goal. Frankly, I'm amazed anybody's even selling parts for T3 before the fourth (and even maybe the possibly never-to-be-seen fifth) set of subsystem components is released. Any market equilibrium we see before that will be totally blown away when that happens. ------------------ Ironfleet.com



Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.