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T3 ship prices and risk vs. reward...

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Holy Lowlander Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.03.22 16:16:00 - [31] but lol tbh ,, who wants to fly t3 now anyways =S ? I mean its cool cause its new , but if you look at the stats its not good , I think its safe to say its bad. CCP should have put alot more time into t3 , the entire expension all together tbh .... they stole my sig :'(
Irongut M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2009.03.22 16:35:00 - [32] You forget something when you reduce EVE to risk vs. reward. EVE is a game so as well as risk and reward you should consider FUN. Is it more enjoyable to fight sleepers than to grind level 4 missions? Is it fun to fly T3 ships just because you can? I have to admit I'm too busy with 0.0 warfare to have entered a wormhole yet so I don't know if fighting sleepers is fun but I can say that I derive very little enjoyment from missions. I haven't run a mission in Empire space in over 3 and a half years. From the dev blogs I've read and people I've spoken to it sounds like fighting sleepers is a lot more fun than grinding missions. There are people who fly faction ships in pvp, myself included. Mostly these ships are overpriced for the extra benefits they provide, often they are underpowered compared to T2 and they usually make you primary in any battle. So why do people fly them? Because it's fun. So even if T3 ships are overpriced and underpowered compared to T2 people will still fly them because it's fun. -- * Brace for Impact! *
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei Guardian Federation	Posted - 2009.03.22 16:54:00 - [33] It would help to make the Wormholes a bit more reliable. CCP promised that players would be able to see the mass of the wormhole and how long it will remain open. Without more info it is difficult to decide, if the Wormhole is stable enough to transport you and your Fleet back. Of course there is still the possibility of a another Wormhole opening up, but you might end in a hostile camp where the motto is: Nice T3 Material. We will blow it up! Things like this will drive the prices up. Quote: Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done
Sillas Cov Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit	Posted - 2009.03.22 17:00:00 - [34] Edited by: Sillas Cov on 22/03/2009 17:02:33 I share the Op concerns and insights on the accessibility of T3 given the very considerable barriers to production atm. Farming Sleeper sites will take a skilled team that is fully dedicated and willing to endure, the very significant time and risk that comes with W Space. I am experiencing this 1st hand, as a few of us are exploring W space and its economic potential. Given what I see now, unless something changes the idea of farming the rare gases, data cores and other rare T3 reverse engineering components will always be very skill, and Time intensive. To make T3 very accessible to the masses for Pvp you would have to: Increase the Mag and Radar drop rates for W Space sleep loot Significantly. Fix the scanner such that it can be used an actual tool, with filters, notation and a scan results history, to deal with the huge amount of W Space data. Increase the gas harvesting rate. Any way you look at it W Space has so many ways for a player to loose money and time as it stands now that the word Farming becomes a joke in relation to T3 for the masses. And I say this after spending hours being trapped in a Worm hole, after our gang collapsed it, and using a scanner with its primitive feautures to find the way out....oh my! Yes extremely fun, and extremely challenging, but.....? Onward Sillas
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.22 17:13:00 - [35] Sillas- I agree with what you're saying, but simply increasing the drop rates of stuff will just dilute the profits of the w-space guys if there isn't demand for their product in the first place, no? The main issue IMO is that T3 will always be very expensive due to the whole risk/reward balance. W-space is high risk, and if there isn't enough ISK/hour reward there, people simply won't go. So if you did make everything plentiful and easy in w-space to reduce T3 production costs you'd reduce the overall ISK/hour productivity of w-space guys and eventually they'd just go back to something less risky to earn their cash. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Princess Jodi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.22 17:42:00 - [36] The entire basis of this argument is that WH space is not as lucrative as Level 4's. So what? Its new, very different and good fun. As such there will be people willing to try it. Now if those people will produce enough to make T3 as cheap as T2... I doubt it. But again.. So what? Eve is a multi-faceted game, not just 'Well Level 4's are the best dough, so don't do anything else.' I'm grateful for the added content and the excitement that comes with hard rats, no local and pvp danger. Just because the ships produced become expensive or non-wtfpwnbbq does not take away from the fun.
Luxior	Posted - 2009.03.22 17:45:00 - [37] this risk vs reward thing is crap. pirates finding you in a WH is like not likely at all. If only people enter from high sec WH's of course theres a greater chance of being found. If you enter from a low sec wormhole you're not as likely to be found as most high-sec players are too scared to venture out into the unknown. Low sec is safe if you travel as a gang and have a scout find the WH first and send the scout first to make sure theres nothing on the other side of gates of wormholes. this whole risk reward thing is crap. people set up these articifial price floors because they want to gouge other players of their ISK therefore making the game less fun for everyone else. Theres no reason T3 has to cost billions other than people want more and more ISK with 100% profit off each sell. Its absolutely ridiculous. Theres no regulation of the market, its completely player driven with nothing to keep it in check. While this is good its also bad for the players who don't spend their entire evening on EVE because they actually have a life and have gf's or are married and have offline friends. i seriously think ppl on EVE need to not be so greedy. it's quite sad.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2009.03.22 17:46:00 - [38] Originally by: Luxior this risk vs reward thing is crap. pirates finding you in a WH is like not likely at all. If only people enter from high sec WH's of course theres a greater chance of being found. If you enter from a low sec wormhole you're not as likely to be found as most high-sec players are too scared to venture out into the unknown. Low sec is safe if you travel as a gang and have a scout find the WH first and send the scout first to make sure theres nothing on the other side of gates of wormholes. this whole risk reward thing is crap. people set up these articifial price floors because they want to gouge other players of their ISK therefore making the game less fun for everyone else. Theres no reason T3 has to cost billions other than people want more and more ISK with 100% profit off each sell. Its absolutely ridiculous. Theres no regulation of the market, its completely player driven with nothing to keep it in check. While this is good its also bad for the players who don't spend their entire evening on EVE because they actually have a life and have gf's or are married and have offline friends. i seriously think ppl on EVE need to not be so greedy. it's quite sad. emo is strong with this one - DesuSigs
Sillas Cov Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit	Posted - 2009.03.22 17:46:00 - [39] Bellum No I think you are over shooting there in you assumptions of what increased drop rates would do. Demand for T3 will would remain strong for the long term when large amounts of people actually get to use the tech in an accessible manner. People in eve are always looking for something new to learn how to fit and fight with and collect, train for ect...and fit into their Pvp goals and wars and T3 is obviosuly very cool. Ive looked at it and would love to train up for one and fight in Factional warfare with them on a daily basis. Increased drop rates and the scanner tech to get at the sites makes the production side viable, which increases production which will increase demand HUGELY when T3 gets into the Main Eve player base mind set as a VIABLE and FUN Pvp solution. One must remember that W space is fully set to become a PvP active environment as more hostile pilots learn to scan out worm holes. And so this will cut into time and profits over the long run for a production based T3 Corp. Its nothing really to drop a scan and jump into a few worm holes a day and a smart piwate corp would keep close tabs on its local holes once the farming begins as it will and would if T3 drops when up significantly. No, this is Eve, and T3 loot will always be in demand as ships blow up and really fun ships get blown up lots!! CPP will have made a huge mistake if less than 1% of Eve ever gets to buy and use a T3 cruiser. Make T3 about 30% more expensive than a Hac and you would have a seriously cool economy, and Pvp arena flourish. Other wise T3 will always remain a rich mans toy which serves who exactly as we log on to have fun do we not?? Sillas
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.22 17:55:00 - [40] 9 runs and only once did we meet any neuts/reds in a wormhole system. This 'pirates' thing is way overrated.

Hariya	Posted - 2009.03.22 18:03:00 - [41] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Simply put: how do the developers expect T3 ships to ever be reasonably priced, particularly considering their level or performance (or lack thereof). They don't. T3 was meant as "end-game goal" in a game without end. They are supposed to be just like that.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.22 18:04:00 - [42] Originally by: Hariya Originally by: Bellum Eternus Simply put: how do the developers expect T3 ships to ever be reasonably priced, particularly considering their level or performance (or lack thereof). They don't. T3 was meant as "end-game goal" in a game without end. They are supposed to be just like that. Everyone, say it with me.... Wrooooong.... Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Hariya	Posted - 2009.03.22 18:10:00 - [43] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Hariya Originally by: Bellum Eternus Simply put: how do the developers expect T3 ships to ever be reasonably priced, particularly considering their level or performance (or lack thereof). They don't. T3 was meant as "end-game goal" in a game without end. They are supposed to be just like that. Everyone, say it with me.... Wrooooong.... You are just a bunch of people whining about how expensive Ferraris are
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.03.22 18:12:00 - [44] Originally by: Hariya You are just a bunch of people whining about how expensive Ferraris are Not surprising, given that the manufacturer said they'd be priced like Golfs. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Deej Montana Caldari Outbound Flight	Posted - 2009.03.22 18:19:00 - [45] Edited by: Deej Montana on 22/03/2009 18:23:28 Exactly right Tippia! Any of you people complaining about others complaining about T3 prices ever read the dev blog comments? Devs said they wanted T3 ship pricing to fall in the range of 350 mil. Also; Pirate issue overstated, huh? So overstated that there was a recent front page ISD news item about it? http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2932&tid=7 No, that's not an RP piece either.
Khrillian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.03.22 18:31:00 - [46] You're mistake is you assumed devs have any idea how to estimate the prices of things they put into the game. They don't. T3 will be very expensive and stay that way to ensure risk/reward balance. I don't know how it's a "problem" that mods that are hard to get are expensive.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2009.03.22 19:17:00 - [47] Originally by: Luxior this whole risk reward thing is crap. people set up these articifial price floors because they want to gouge other players of their ISK therefore making the game less fun for everyone else. Theres no reason T3 has to cost billions other than people want more and more ISK with 100% profit off each sell. Its absolutely ridiculous. Theres no regulation of the market, its completely player driven with nothing to keep it in check. While this is good its also bad for the players who don't spend their entire evening on EVE because they actually have a life and have gf's or are married and have offline friends. i seriously think ppl on EVE need to not be so greedy. it's quite sad. Uh. Have you read economy 101 at all? In a market with low entry costs and free rules of competition the prices will always approach the alternative cost. These days alternative cost is L4 missions, with perhaps an average of 15-20 mil ISK per hour. Over time the profits from T3 exploration will approach an average of 15-20 mil ISK per hour as anyone that could make more money from running L4s will do that instead, while in a perfectly free market people who could make more money in W-space would do that instead. Only if the supply is limited by other factors (for example if too many people are incapable of going into w-space, for example by being too chicken) will the ISK/hour rise above the alternative cost. ______________________________________________ -My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn.
digital0verdose Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.22 19:27:00 - [48] Originally by: Bellum Eternus How do we fix this? Your knee jerk reaction is what is assuming something is broken. How about you give alliances, that are capable of handling the challenges of w-space, a chance to put forward a process which allows them to start pumping out T3 ships, and then based on supply/demand, determine if it is worth the time invested in making the ships. Three weeks after the release of a new aspect you are expecting everything to have been worked out. Have patience so that the full effect of what is going on can be felt so that CCP can make calculated changes rather than trying to force them to make hasty changes based on what has been read on the forums, your failed attempts at w-space or nearly failed successes. We could keep talking about this all day but you're too busy reading my sig instead.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.22 19:48:00 - [49] Originally by: digital0verdose Originally by: Bellum Eternus How do we fix this? Your knee jerk reaction is what is assuming something is broken. How about you give alliances, that are capable of handling the challenges of w-space, a chance to put forward a process which allows them to start pumping out T3 ships, and then based on supply/demand, determine if it is worth the time invested in making the ships. Three weeks after the release of a new aspect you are expecting everything to have been worked out. Have patience so that the full effect of what is going on can be felt so that CCP can make calculated changes rather than trying to force them to make hasty changes based on what has been read on the forums, your failed attempts at w-space or nearly failed successes. Again, another failure of a player misses the point. This has nothing to do with my personal performance in w-space. I've already worked out a very efficient approach to killing Sleepers and farming the complexes and mining gas clouds and so on. Sure it takes teamwork and concentration, but it's very doable. My point is about the man-hours required to produce a single T3 ship and the limits that places on the minimum price that can be set for a single ship and still remain competitive with other forms of income. Everyone keeps bringing up alliances. What do alliances have to do with anything? I'm farming w-space stuff in Tier 4 and 5 wormholes just fine with a smallish group of highly skilled players. It's really turning out to be much easier than expected to maintain a POS and generate materials from w-space than I anticipated, but that doesn't mean that we will continue to do so once the profitability decreases over time. And the only way to maintain the current level of profitability is to keep the unit cost of T3 ships very high, which will ensure that they remain unused for PVP for the most part. If these ships are yet another novelty then all of the development effort that has gone into their design is a waste. How long have BlackOps ships been in the game? How often are they seen in front line PVP? That's what I thought. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Cailais Amarr Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.03.22 21:22:00 - [50] Your posts seem to be contradicting Bellum. On the one hand you suggest T3 ships are not worth the risk to harvest the build materials you require to manufacture them. But then you say actually getting the materials is relatively straight forward and you're having no problems doing so. I personally see T3 and w-space as an alternate branch of ship production - you don't require 0.0 space in order to harvest the materials cheaply (as you might for T2) so it's within reach of smaller non-alliance corps. There's clearly a risk element in trying to establish and control .0 space to command those resources, so there should be for T3. However T3 shouldnt suplant T2 and make that .0 space reduce in value, so T3 shouldnt be naturally better than T2 - which, by and large, it isnt. So where's the problem? C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.

Azirapheal Amarr Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2009.03.22 21:30:00 - [51] Originally by: Akita T Re: T3 ship prices Dear CCP, we told you so Signed, the players. /thread
Pattern Clarc Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.03.22 21:44:00 - [52] Originally by: Azirapheal Originally by: Akita T Re: T3 ship prices Dear CCP, we told you so Signed, the players. /thread I think the main problem is that unlike tech 2, which introduced warping cloaked, interdictors, HIC's, stealth bombers and black ops, tech 3 ships don't actually do anything new tactically. Although the added complexity in the fittings mini game is nice, it was less needed than additions tot tactics and game play in pvp. The CCP ignored this, and instead made faction ships but at 25x the cost in manpower. /thread ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Turiel Demon Minmatar Inhumation Inc.	Posted - 2009.03.22 21:57:00 - [53] Originally by: Cailais Your posts seem to be contradicting Bellum. On the one hand you suggest T3 ships are not worth the risk to harvest the build materials you require to manufacture them. But then you say actually getting the materials is relatively straight forward and you're having no problems doing so. So where's the problem? C. I think you're confusing simplicity with being worthwhile time-wise when compared to other isk-making activities.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.22 22:06:00 - [54] Originally by: Cailais Your posts seem to be contradicting Bellum. On the one hand you suggest T3 ships are not worth the risk to harvest the build materials you require to manufacture them. But then you say actually getting the materials is relatively straight forward and you're having no problems doing so. I personally see T3 and w-space as an alternate branch of ship production - you don't require 0.0 space in order to harvest the materials cheaply (as you might for T2) so it's within reach of smaller non-alliance corps. There's clearly a risk element in trying to establish and control .0 space to command those resources, so there should be for T3. However T3 shouldnt suplant T2 and make that .0 space reduce in value, so T3 shouldnt be naturally better than T2 - which, by and large, it isnt. So where's the problem? C. I don't think that my posts are contradictory. I said that there is a lot of risk involved, which there is. I also said that my crew and I have Sleepers figured out pretty well and we're able to reliably and consistently produce results, which still isn't contradictory. The problem is that if T3 ships were to sell for 70-80% of the cost of T2 ships, then the effort required to procure all the materials and items required to produce them wouldn't be worth the effort anymore. T3 ships won't be worth using in PVP until their prices are down below T2 levels, and when this happens the amount of ISK/hour people will see from producing T3 material will be less than that of L4 mission running, ratting or any number of other activities including traditional manufacturing. It just won't be worth the time cost. Run the numbers to see how much material is required to produce a T3 ship and it's associated modules, then assign a cost to the entire assembly that is 70-80% of a comparable T2 ship, and then figure out just how much ISK profit the T3 producers made per hour when the ships are at that price. It won't be much. Right now people balk at even flying T2 ships, or hell, T2 fit ships, much less exotic faction stuff. How is it a realistic expectation for everyone to suddenly be on board with the idea of flying 300-400m ISK cruisers (not even battleships) into PVP with the additional problem of losing skillpoints on top of the ISK loss if it's destroyed? With no insurance? And that's assuming they'll even be below 400m. Who knows, they could stay well above a bil for months on end. And to top it all of, they're just not that special. All told, the performance stats are pretty boring. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.03.22 22:09:00 - [55] If you remember rigs/salvage when they were first released, there was quite a few balancing changes before we reached the equilibrium we have now. So CCP we will simply change drop rates until they get close to the prices that they want. There are a few T3 bottlenecks (namely gas clouds/bpcs/t3 salvage) that will have to be changed so that more T3 ships will be produced. You are also forgetting that a majority of the isk in sleepers comes from tags sold to NPCs which I find to be worth more than level 4s and prices for tags cannot be affected by the player-driven market. T3 will of course be obscenely expensive until CCP gets the drop rates correct, but that is far more favorable to T3 being insanely cheap and upsetting game balance negatively. Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking with regards to hull components and their capabilities instead of copying some cookie-cutter setup. Cry some more.
Cailais Amarr Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.03.22 22:17:00 - [56] Originally by: Turiel Demon Originally by: Cailais Your posts seem to be contradicting Bellum. On the one hand you suggest T3 ships are not worth the risk to harvest the build materials you require to manufacture them. But then you say actually getting the materials is relatively straight forward and you're having no problems doing so. So where's the problem? C. I think you're confusing simplicity with being worthwhile time-wise when compared to other isk-making activities. Not at all. Bellum was saying that the risk of acquiring T3 components would make T3 ships too expensive to become common place considering the ships attributes / capabilities. He expanded upon this by noting that because other ISK making activities make a 'lot' of ISK, anyone harvesting T3 components would charge a 'lot more' other wise they wouldnt bother. At this point we can infer that the cost of T3 exceeds their usefulness. My point is that if you make T3 better than T2, you devalue the resources needed for T2 and hence 0.0 space, which is where the prime ingredients are harvested from (moon mining). The critical point of course is that T3 offers a different route towards "better Tech" resource harvesting than claiming .0 space. It's risks are roughly comparable (danger of w space vs difficulty in holding .0 space) only the scale (small corp vs alliance) changes. The fact that empire space can achieve high rewards over time vs rewards over time in .0 / w space is a seperate issue that's been discussed ad nauseum on these forums and is pretty well understood. So the main crux of the issue isnt that T3 is 'broken' or that there is some imbalance between .0 harvesting and w space harvesting - but that neither hold much of candle to the defining mark of ISK generation - i.e high sec. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
IsoMetricanTaliac 2 Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.03.23 00:50:00 - [57] Yes with the current mechanics around the T3 ships production it is very unlikely they will drop in price for some time if the amount of time/effort is not tweaked a little. I mean at this time it has been 13 days since the expansion & yet still there are only a few of these ships actually sitting in a state where they could be flown (From what the forums are saying, so it could be wrong I guess hey) Is this a warning sign that maybe the amount of things needed to build the ships/subsystems is too high or that maybe the sleepers need to be balanced a little. With the amount of people that have been hunting sleepers in the last 13 days should it have taken so long for these ships to start being flown around? Whats it going to be like once people start going back to doing their usual things ingame for the people wanting to build these ships for sale etc.? I hope something is done to make these ships worth the hassle when it comes to building them for all of our sakes In a Time When Many Will Seek Death, There Will Always Be Those Like Me Who Won't Mind Helping Them Along Their Way!?!
Spurty Caldari Amok. Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.03.23 01:14:00 - [58] Zero sub-systems and ships for sale anywhere that I can see on eve-central. Some very interesting buy orders about as well lol. There are definitely people putting up POS's in W-Space to produce the ships and subsystems. Of course, these POS's are being popped the moment they are spotted, but the odds are in the production people's favor. Give it time, stop whining that you aren't already cruising around jita in your T3 ship. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too early to know, speculators, you are so full of win (not, thanks for crashing markets time and time again). Originally by: Butter Dog I think you'll find that 10 seconds > 1 month
Elite Qin Caldari APOCALYPSE LEGION	Posted - 2009.03.23 01:17:00 - [59] The main advantage that WH space has is that it's a LOT of fun to live/be in. The ones that are producing T3 ships are probably going to be the ones that are living in WH space, and they're going to be the ones that will live there even if it isn't great money. Why would they do that? Because EVE Online is a game! You pay your 15$ a month to have fun, and WH space is fun. If people are living in WH Space (which they will be, both for challenge and profit), T3 ships will be made.
Hegbard	Posted - 2009.03.23 01:34:00 - [60] I have a question. Why are people raging about strategic cruisers being expensive, while stealth bombers, electronic attack frigates and black ops remain useless and barely anyone makes long wall of text whines about the bad prices and risk vs. reward for them?



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