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Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.22 12:25:00 - [1] Simply put: how do the developers expect T3 ships to ever be reasonably priced, particularly considering their level or performance (or lack thereof). If you consider the time cost involved in doing any other activity in Eve that makes ISK, particularly Level 4 missions, that allow a player to generate ISK in complete safety and then look at the considerable risk and time cost of procuring all the associated materials and items required for the production, are players really going to give the stuff away out of the goodness of their hearts simply to make T3 ships cheap and plentiful? There is no greater risk in Eve than the w-space environments. The devs have done a really good job at ensuring that traditional farming techniques fall flat on their face when applied to Sleeper NPCs. What this means in practical application is that a lot of man hours are going to be required to produce the results needed, and having live people behind the production means that those people are going to want to get paid, a lot. If players are always able to generate a certain amount of ISK/hour, particularly by themselves, with little effort and little to no risk, then they're going to demand a much higher rate of return for their time when they have to risk a considerable amount of ISK, are inconvenienced by the hassle of w-space logistics (you can't just come and go as you please, run to trade centers when you need something etc.) and to top it all off there is the issue of implants and training time, where most players choose to use no implants, or lesser implants, and this reduces the amount of SP/hour earned when compared to sitting around with +5s in your head while they're running missions semi-afk for hours on end. No, this isn't a thread about nerfing L4 missions. It's about trying to understand how the devs think that T3 ships will ever be as cheap as or less expensive than T2, considering that their performance isn't that impressive and demand for them will be fairly low in view of their cost. Players will be in w-space as long as there are massive profits to be made to offset the risks involved, but once that goes away those same players will go back to doing whatever it was they were doing before w-space came along. An equilibrium point will be reached, but I think that point will be very high (from a T3 price standpoint) simply because it's too much effort to produce the T3 ships to make ISK when compared to other easier and less risky occupations. T3 will never be very cheap, and T3 ship performance will never be worth the cost and the risk when flying them. How do we fix this? Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bigpimping Pimp Inc.	Posted - 2009.03.22 12:35:00 - [2] I love you... ________________________________________ He who pimps, is God...
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.03.22 12:45:00 - [3] That point was stressed quite a bit when Apocrypha got on Singularity, but CCP didn't listen much. An increase in the output of gaz harvesting, and that's it. Of course that's far from being enough... I'm waiting a few more weeks to see how it evolve before making a post like yours... Still, the relative lack of BPCs on contracts and T3-related threads in the sell forum is pretty telling, isn't it? ------------------------------------------
Prontifex THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2009.03.22 12:45:00 - [4] Bellum/thread
Azirapheal Amarr Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2009.03.22 12:52:00 - [5] to be honest i dont mind the costs. the highsec bears that grind missions all day will carry on doing so. i view w-space as more of a bit of fun and something new. found a wormhole from minmatar empire space. to right next door to the goons home system in pr- anyway, as i was going to say. the cost of producing these ships will easilly be met by the risk free highsec bears. who will in all likelyness stick to their cnr's for grinding missions. i predict t3 becoming vastly overpriced on markets, but corps and alliances banding together to produce them for their own in concentrated ops
Zaraki KenpachiSan	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:02:00 - [6] Edited by: Zaraki KenpachiSan on 22/03/2009 13:01:47 Originally by: Bellum Eternus It's about trying to understand how the devs think that T3 ships will ever be as cheap as or less expensive than T2 And why exactly should t3 be as cheap as t2? Devs stated that t3 must be an elite class: when you meet one in a fight you must say "oh f*k a t3 ship". That was the initial concept of t2, but it failed, so t3: extremely expensive in term of isk and risky in term of skills loss.
CAREBEAR SPY	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:07:00 - [7] hey guys!!! how r u all? im super thx 4 askin!!! omg i totally agree w/ u. i think that tech 3 should be cheaper n easier to make. theres no fun n playin a game where u cant buy nothin!!! teh biggest think 2 remove is teh skillpoint loss penality if u accidently blow ur ship up. y would i wanna risk a ship thats gonna make me dumber if i blow it up? idk but ill personally never play tech 3 unless they get some changes on it. o well!!! lol ccp aint gonna change it so there aint no use cryin!!! lol hugs n kisses
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:07:00 - [8] Originally by: Azirapheal to be honest i dont mind the costs. the highsec bears that grind missions all day will carry on doing so. i view w-space as more of a bit of fun and something new. found a wormhole from minmatar empire space. to right next door to the goons home system in pr- anyway, as i was going to say. the cost of producing these ships will easilly be met by the risk free highsec bears. who will in all likelyness stick to their cnr's for grinding missions. i predict t3 becoming vastly overpriced on markets, but corps and alliances banding together to produce them for their own in concentrated ops What is your point exactly? You're not making any sense. You're saying that high priced T3 ships aren't a problem and that it's ok because 'alliances will just make them for themselves'? Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:09:00 - [9] Originally by: Zaraki KenpachiSan Edited by: Zaraki KenpachiSan on 22/03/2009 13:01:47 Originally by: Bellum Eternus It's about trying to understand how the devs think that T3 ships will ever be as cheap as or less expensive than T2 And why exactly should t3 be as cheap as t2? Devs stated that t3 must be an elite class: when you meet one in a fight you must say "oh f*k a t3 ship". That was the initial concept of t2, but it failed, so t3: extremely expensive in term of isk and risky in term of skills loss. Because the Dev have stated that the projected price of T3 is equivalent to T2.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:10:00 - [10] Originally by: Zaraki KenpachiSan Edited by: Zaraki KenpachiSan on 22/03/2009 13:01:47 Originally by: Bellum Eternus It's about trying to understand how the devs think that T3 ships will ever be as cheap as or less expensive than T2 And why exactly should t3 be as cheap as t2? Devs stated that t3 must be an elite class: when you meet one in a fight you must say "oh fk a t3 ship". That was the initial concept of t2, but it failed, so t3: extremely expensive in term of isk and risky in term of skills loss. I'm not saying that T3 should be as cheap/cheaper than T2. I'm saying that the performance should reflect the cost and risk involved with flying one. It's the DEVELOPERS who have said (repeatedly) that they want T3 ships to be less expensive than T2. Personally I'd like it very much if T3 ships were expensive, elite and OMGWTF when it comes to performance. But sadly, that won't ever happen. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.* Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:11:00 - [11] Originally by: Azirapheal i predict t3 becoming vastly overpriced on markets, but corps and alliances banding together to produce them for their own in concentrated ops That'...stupid. If T3 ships are worth billions, alliances won't give them to their members, they will sell them on the markets. Would you give Dreadnoughts to your members for 200 millions? Why would it be different for other expensive goods? ------------------------------------------
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:24:00 - [12] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Azirapheal i predict t3 becoming vastly overpriced on markets, but corps and alliances banding together to produce them for their own in concentrated ops That'...stupid. If T3 ships are worth billions, alliances won't give them to their members, they will sell them on the markets. Would you give Dreadnoughts to your members for 200 millions? Why would it be different for other expensive goods? So you get a gang of alliance mates together and between you, you get enough bits to build a t3 ship each. your alliance then steals them off you and puts them on the market. If i was you i'd quit such a ****e alliance and join a real one.
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:31:00 - [13] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Azirapheal to be honest i dont mind the costs. the highsec bears that grind missions all day will carry on doing so. i view w-space as more of a bit of fun and something new. found a wormhole from minmatar empire space. to right next door to the goons home system in pr- anyway, as i was going to say. the cost of producing these ships will easilly be met by the risk free highsec bears. who will in all likelyness stick to their cnr's for grinding missions. i predict t3 becoming vastly overpriced on markets, but corps and alliances banding together to produce them for their own in concentrated ops What is your point exactly? You're not making any sense. You're saying that high priced T3 ships aren't a problem and that it's ok because 'alliances will just make them for themselves'? To be quite honest, I agree. It's perfectly fine to have something that is expensive to the grinding alt, but a corp and alliance can band together and produce T3 ships very reasonably. I too doubt that T3 will ever get within range of T2. Mostly because I doubt that w-space will keep as many players as it has now, after all the risk-averse individuals get over the excitement and realize that they are STILL unhappy with being in danger. But the biggest lesson I'm taking from w-space is that it's for groups, not solo. Corporations, alliances, groups of friends ... these can achieve great things in w-space. The fact that the solo players might end up having to pay far more than the players who CAN work with others as a team? Doesn't bother me one bit. Even if I tend to play solo far more than not. Are you saying there's something wrong with providing content for groups that is impractical to obtain as a solo player? Originally by: 5pinDizzy Troll Score-o-Meter --------Failure----------\|\|\|-----------Succes------- 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1--0--1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10
Zaraki KenpachiSan	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:50:00 - [14] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Zaraki KenpachiSan Edited by: Zaraki KenpachiSan on 22/03/2009 13:01:47 Originally by: Bellum Eternus It's about trying to understand how the devs think that T3 ships will ever be as cheap as or less expensive than T2 And why exactly should t3 be as cheap as t2? Devs stated that t3 must be an elite class: when you meet one in a fight you must say "oh f*k a t3 ship". That was the initial concept of t2, but it failed, so t3: extremely expensive in term of isk and risky in term of skills loss. I'm not saying that T3 should be as cheap/cheaper than T2. I'm saying that the performance should reflect the cost and risk involved with flying one. It's the DEVELOPERS who have said (repeatedly) that they want T3 ships to be less expensive than T2. Personally I'd like it very much if T3 ships were expensive, elite and OMGWTF when it comes to performance. But sadly, that won't ever happen. That's right too and i agree.
Amael Galenus Mighty Moshin Emo Rangers	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:51:00 - [15] IMHO, the problem is that the drive for T3 is currently taking a back seat to PvP- once the initial thrill of w-space/Sleepers/exploration wears off, I think most people quickly realise that it's more proftable & fun (and occasionally easier) to hunt players in w-space rather than grind Sleeper sites. Maybe increasing the number of mag & radar sites would help- the potential for a ~100mil reward from a single site might tempt people back to site grinding rather than player hunting.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.03.22 13:58:00 - [16] Did you just compare a direct isk faucet (mission running, where isk is coming out of thin air) with an activity where the value of your labor is determined by peoples willingness to pay for your products? Tech 3 (and tech 2) ship have just about zero "real" isk value, if you disregard what little insurance you get when one of them blows up. It is outright silly trying to compare that to isk printing machines like mission whoring. IF you should complain about something it would be the difficulty of acquiring the materials to build the ships contra the abilities of the ship. Though I personally do not feel that anything is unbalanced in that regard. Btw. have you thought about, no matter the amount of mission whoring you will never be able to construct a tech 3 cruiser by the gains from the missions only? ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.03.22 14:08:00 - [17] If no one buys the ships, they get cheaper. The less worthwhile it is doing the wormholes, the less risky it becomes. It will all balance itself. P.S. Risk vs Reward is a lie. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Tsaya Azn Empire	Posted - 2009.03.22 14:10:00 - [18] Edited by: Tsaya on 22/03/2009 14:13:48 T2 production levels and costs are controlled by the large alliances, who set the price and availability for moon minerals. There is a limit to the quantity of moon minerals that can enter the market in any given time period and this is further restricted by warfare over the control of the moons. T3 production is currently limited only by 1) Scanning ability 2) The ships required to defeat Sleepers In the long run, T3 will become cheaper than T2 as the developers predicted. The argument that the reward is not worth the risk is valid currently, but the vast majority of people doing wormhole content are solo explorers or small gangs. Once people start to enter wormholes with a more significant presence to both handle Sleepers AND protect themselves against PvPers/pirates, then the risk will fall while the rewards only increase with time. Once the isk farmers work out how to exploit Sleeper rats to their benefit, you will see markets flooded with T3 components also, and since skill requirements are quite low for T3 ships, this will only increase the supply, and thus the price can go nowhere but down.
The Snowman Gallente Wurmz.	Posted - 2009.03.22 14:17:00 - [19] early days...early days.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.22 14:37:00 - [20] Re: T3 ship prices Dear CCP, we told you so Signed, the players. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Exlegion Caldari New Light	Posted - 2009.03.22 14:37:00 - [21] To be honest I saw this coming a mile away. And I commented on this on another thread. Pirates are having a field day with the players trying to gather up the pieces to build T3. It's too easy to kill "carebears" in W-space. It doesn't surprise me that pirates now complain on T3 not being easily available. You know what the solution is... But you won't want to hear it. So I'll just leave at that. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.22 14:39:00 - [22] Originally by: Jowen Datloran Did you just compare a direct isk faucet (mission running, where isk is coming out of thin air) with an activity where the value of your labor is determined by peoples willingness to pay for your products? Tech 3 (and tech 2) ship have just about zero "real" isk value, if you disregard what little insurance you get when one of them blows up. It is outright silly trying to compare that to isk printing machines like mission whoring. IF you should complain about something it would be the difficulty of acquiring the materials to build the ships contra the abilities of the ship. Though I personally do not feel that anything is unbalanced in that regard. Btw. have you thought about, no matter the amount of mission whoring you will never be able to construct a tech 3 cruiser by the gains from the missions only? You're completely wrong, and here's why: Everything in Eve has a time cost. In a manner of speaking, L4 missions artificially set an ISK/hour baseline. Doing anything else that provides less ISK/hour is inefficient and doing anything that has greater risk involved should offer enough of an increased incentive to make it worth that risk. So yes, you can directly compare (correctly so) missions with producing an item that has no 'real' cost and only player derived cost, simply because the amount of time put into producing said item should have a base price of that amount of time multiplied by the amount of ISK/hour the same person producing the item could have made while running missions. My point is that players are only going to operate in w-space as long as the profit justifies doing so, and players are only going to buy T3 ships as long as the price/performance justifies doing so. Consequently, if the T3 ship performance is crap, and it requires a huge amount of player effort to produce them, then they'll be overpriced while they don't perform and we'll end up with no one buying T3 in volume (note the qualifier) and the T3 prices will fall until players no longer find it worthwhile to produce them. Then all we see is a very small supply of T3 ships being produced to handle the small amount of residual demand and T3 ends up being similar to BlackOps or Electronic Attack Frigates: a low volume novelty item that nobody really uses in large numbers. What a waste of development time. Yet again, more content that a very small number of the player base will ever bother with. A complete waste of time in the long run. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.03.22 14:40:00 - [23] Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII So you get a gang of alliance mates together and between you, you get enough bits to build a t3 ship each. your alliance then steals them off you and puts them on the market. If i was you i'd quit such a **e alliance and join a real one. Ridiculous. If a corp op is done to do T3 exploration, the bits and pieces go to the corp. If individual players do it, the stuff is theirs. Nothing wrong with that. And "**e alliances", as you said, never achieve anything, because they can't keep their members. Insinutating TCF is one is...funny. ------------------------------------------
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.22 14:45:00 - [24] Originally by: Exlegion To be honest I saw this coming a mile away. And I commented on this on another thread. Pirates are having a field day with the players trying to gather up the pieces to build T3. It's too easy to kill "carebears" in W-space. It doesn't surprise me that pirates now complain on T3 not being easily available. You know what the solution is... But you won't want to hear it. So I'll just leave at that. LOL. You can't POSSIBLY be implying that it's PIRATES who are at fault for high T3 prices? Seriously?! Further more, I'm not complaining about high prices. Price has nothing to do with it. What I'm more interested in is having T3 ships become as prolific as T2, which with the current design they won't be. How many BlackOps have you killed in PVP? Maybe I'm asking the wrong person here as you clearly sound like some sissified pantywaist carebear, but I digress. I want to see T3 ships, and I want to see LOTS OF THEM. I want to see the new content used by the majority of PVP players out there. They shouldn't be some super rare exotic ship that has no performance and is relegated to a novelty. A good example of this is the Ashimuu- it's a rare and expensive faction ship who's performance is absolutely horrible, yet it has some interesting bonuses, if only the ship didn't totally suck ass. To wit: it's a waste of game design. It should be fixed. T3 should be fixed. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.03.22 14:57:00 - [25] Originally by: The Snowman early days...early days. This actually. Right now people are still gearing up for production, no baseline prices have been established. This entire thread is based on conjecture and nothing more. ===== Yeah, VC is back, and we have a bone to pick with you.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2009.03.22 15:03:00 - [26] Originally by: Tsaya T3 production is currently limited only by 1) Scanning ability 2) The ships required to defeat Sleepers In the long run, T3 will become cheaper than T2 as the developers predicted. So you're gonna try to tell me there's an infinite supply of Sleepers that never run out day-to-day? Cause last time I cleared a few sites they didn't come back. Sleepers aren't farmable. And the actual number of combat sites seem to be small in comparison to mining sites in most systems. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.22 15:06:00 - [27] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: The Snowman early days...early days. This actually. Right now people are still gearing up for production, no baseline prices have been established. This entire thread is based on conjecture and nothing more. Again, someone who is completely wrong. If you apply say, 40m ISK/hour as a baseline value for missioning in high sec (easily done) and then apply the number of man hours needed to create the materials and items needed to produce a T3 ship then it's base cost runs into the hundreds of millions of ISK. So no, it's not based off of blind conjecture. And I don't mind the complexity and effort required to produce the ships. Or the teamwork needed, or the risk involved. In my opinion that's the fun part. What bothers me is that with the current setup T3 ships will be astronomically expensive and they won't be worth the cost to use. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Tasko Pal THE IRIS United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.22 15:38:00 - [28] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: The Snowman early days...early days. This actually. Right now people are still gearing up for production, no baseline prices have been established. This entire thread is based on conjecture and nothing more. Again, someone who is completely wrong. If you apply say, 40m ISK/hour as a baseline value for missioning in high sec (easily done) and then apply the number of man hours needed to create the materials and items needed to produce a T3 ship then it's base cost runs into the hundreds of millions of ISK. So no, it's not based off of blind conjecture. And I don't mind the complexity and effort required to produce the ships. Or the teamwork needed, or the risk involved. In my opinion that's the fun part. What bothers me is that with the current setup T3 ships will be astronomically expensive and they won't be worth the cost to use. Stop wasting our time. You ignored that single people can run WH ratting gangs, that most people don't make 40 mil isk/hr, and that we including yourself don't have a clue where the price of these ships will stabilize. It's all blind conjecture.
Tsaya Azn Empire	Posted - 2009.03.22 15:39:00 - [29] Originally by: Wet Ferret Originally by: Tsaya T3 production is currently limited only by 1) Scanning ability 2) The ships required to defeat Sleepers In the long run, T3 will become cheaper than T2 as the developers predicted. So you're gonna try to tell me there's an infinite supply of Sleepers that never run out day-to-day? Cause last time I cleared a few sites they didn't come back. Sleepers aren't farmable. And the actual number of combat sites seem to be small in comparison to mining sites in most systems. how many of the top level sites have you cleared? :)
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.03.22 15:42:00 - [30] Originally by: Bellum Eternus It's the DEVELOPERS who have said (repeatedly) that they want T3 ships to be less expensive than T2. These would be the same developers who wanted rigs to be cheap enough to fit routinely on frigates, right? Whatever they may want, their willingness to balance their own systems in order to achieve those goals should not be counted upon. That said, I think it's too soon to panic about T3. It's going to take at least a year before anybody knows how close they get to their design goal. Frankly, I'm amazed anybody's even selling parts for T3 before the fourth (and even maybe the possibly never-to-be-seen fifth) set of subsystem components is released. Any market equilibrium we see before that will be totally blown away when that happens. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Holy Lowlander Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.03.22 16:16:00 - [31] but lol tbh ,, who wants to fly t3 now anyways =S ? I mean its cool cause its new , but if you look at the stats its not good , I think its safe to say its bad. CCP should have put alot more time into t3 , the entire expension all together tbh .... they stole my sig :'(
Irongut M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2009.03.22 16:35:00 - [32] You forget something when you reduce EVE to risk vs. reward. EVE is a game so as well as risk and reward you should consider FUN. Is it more enjoyable to fight sleepers than to grind level 4 missions? Is it fun to fly T3 ships just because you can? I have to admit I'm too busy with 0.0 warfare to have entered a wormhole yet so I don't know if fighting sleepers is fun but I can say that I derive very little enjoyment from missions. I haven't run a mission in Empire space in over 3 and a half years. From the dev blogs I've read and people I've spoken to it sounds like fighting sleepers is a lot more fun than grinding missions. There are people who fly faction ships in pvp, myself included. Mostly these ships are overpriced for the extra benefits they provide, often they are underpowered compared to T2 and they usually make you primary in any battle. So why do people fly them? Because it's fun. So even if T3 ships are overpriced and underpowered compared to T2 people will still fly them because it's fun. -- * Brace for Impact! *
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei Guardian Federation	Posted - 2009.03.22 16:54:00 - [33] It would help to make the Wormholes a bit more reliable. CCP promised that players would be able to see the mass of the wormhole and how long it will remain open. Without more info it is difficult to decide, if the Wormhole is stable enough to transport you and your Fleet back. Of course there is still the possibility of a another Wormhole opening up, but you might end in a hostile camp where the motto is: Nice T3 Material. We will blow it up! Things like this will drive the prices up. Quote: Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done
Sillas Cov Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit	Posted - 2009.03.22 17:00:00 - [34] Edited by: Sillas Cov on 22/03/2009 17:02:33 I share the Op concerns and insights on the accessibility of T3 given the very considerable barriers to production atm. Farming Sleeper sites will take a skilled team that is fully dedicated and willing to endure, the very significant time and risk that comes with W Space. I am experiencing this 1st hand, as a few of us are exploring W space and its economic potential. Given what I see now, unless something changes the idea of farming the rare gases, data cores and other rare T3 reverse engineering components will always be very skill, and Time intensive. To make T3 very accessible to the masses for Pvp you would have to: Increase the Mag and Radar drop rates for W Space sleep loot Significantly. Fix the scanner such that it can be used an actual tool, with filters, notation and a scan results history, to deal with the huge amount of W Space data. Increase the gas harvesting rate. Any way you look at it W Space has so many ways for a player to loose money and time as it stands now that the word Farming becomes a joke in relation to T3 for the masses. And I say this after spending hours being trapped in a Worm hole, after our gang collapsed it, and using a scanner with its primitive feautures to find the way out....oh my! Yes extremely fun, and extremely challenging, but.....? Onward Sillas
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.22 17:13:00 - [35] Sillas- I agree with what you're saying, but simply increasing the drop rates of stuff will just dilute the profits of the w-space guys if there isn't demand for their product in the first place, no? The main issue IMO is that T3 will always be very expensive due to the whole risk/reward balance. W-space is high risk, and if there isn't enough ISK/hour reward there, people simply won't go. So if you did make everything plentiful and easy in w-space to reduce T3 production costs you'd reduce the overall ISK/hour productivity of w-space guys and eventually they'd just go back to something less risky to earn their cash. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Princess Jodi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.22 17:42:00 - [36] The entire basis of this argument is that WH space is not as lucrative as Level 4's. So what? Its new, very different and good fun. As such there will be people willing to try it. Now if those people will produce enough to make T3 as cheap as T2... I doubt it. But again.. So what? Eve is a multi-faceted game, not just 'Well Level 4's are the best dough, so don't do anything else.' I'm grateful for the added content and the excitement that comes with hard rats, no local and pvp danger. Just because the ships produced become expensive or non-wtfpwnbbq does not take away from the fun.
Luxior	Posted - 2009.03.22 17:45:00 - [37] this risk vs reward thing is crap. pirates finding you in a WH is like not likely at all. If only people enter from high sec WH's of course theres a greater chance of being found. If you enter from a low sec wormhole you're not as likely to be found as most high-sec players are too scared to venture out into the unknown. Low sec is safe if you travel as a gang and have a scout find the WH first and send the scout first to make sure theres nothing on the other side of gates of wormholes. this whole risk reward thing is crap. people set up these articifial price floors because they want to gouge other players of their ISK therefore making the game less fun for everyone else. Theres no reason T3 has to cost billions other than people want more and more ISK with 100% profit off each sell. Its absolutely ridiculous. Theres no regulation of the market, its completely player driven with nothing to keep it in check. While this is good its also bad for the players who don't spend their entire evening on EVE because they actually have a life and have gf's or are married and have offline friends. i seriously think ppl on EVE need to not be so greedy. it's quite sad.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2009.03.22 17:46:00 - [38] Originally by: Luxior this risk vs reward thing is crap. pirates finding you in a WH is like not likely at all. If only people enter from high sec WH's of course theres a greater chance of being found. If you enter from a low sec wormhole you're not as likely to be found as most high-sec players are too scared to venture out into the unknown. Low sec is safe if you travel as a gang and have a scout find the WH first and send the scout first to make sure theres nothing on the other side of gates of wormholes. this whole risk reward thing is crap. people set up these articifial price floors because they want to gouge other players of their ISK therefore making the game less fun for everyone else. Theres no reason T3 has to cost billions other than people want more and more ISK with 100% profit off each sell. Its absolutely ridiculous. Theres no regulation of the market, its completely player driven with nothing to keep it in check. While this is good its also bad for the players who don't spend their entire evening on EVE because they actually have a life and have gf's or are married and have offline friends. i seriously think ppl on EVE need to not be so greedy. it's quite sad. emo is strong with this one - DesuSigs
Sillas Cov Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit	Posted - 2009.03.22 17:46:00 - [39] Bellum No I think you are over shooting there in you assumptions of what increased drop rates would do. Demand for T3 will would remain strong for the long term when large amounts of people actually get to use the tech in an accessible manner. People in eve are always looking for something new to learn how to fit and fight with and collect, train for ect...and fit into their Pvp goals and wars and T3 is obviosuly very cool. Ive looked at it and would love to train up for one and fight in Factional warfare with them on a daily basis. Increased drop rates and the scanner tech to get at the sites makes the production side viable, which increases production which will increase demand HUGELY when T3 gets into the Main Eve player base mind set as a VIABLE and FUN Pvp solution. One must remember that W space is fully set to become a PvP active environment as more hostile pilots learn to scan out worm holes. And so this will cut into time and profits over the long run for a production based T3 Corp. Its nothing really to drop a scan and jump into a few worm holes a day and a smart piwate corp would keep close tabs on its local holes once the farming begins as it will and would if T3 drops when up significantly. No, this is Eve, and T3 loot will always be in demand as ships blow up and really fun ships get blown up lots!! CPP will have made a huge mistake if less than 1% of Eve ever gets to buy and use a T3 cruiser. Make T3 about 30% more expensive than a Hac and you would have a seriously cool economy, and Pvp arena flourish. Other wise T3 will always remain a rich mans toy which serves who exactly as we log on to have fun do we not?? Sillas
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.22 17:55:00 - [40] 9 runs and only once did we meet any neuts/reds in a wormhole system. This 'pirates' thing is way overrated.
Hariya	Posted - 2009.03.22 18:03:00 - [41] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Simply put: how do the developers expect T3 ships to ever be reasonably priced, particularly considering their level or performance (or lack thereof). They don't. T3 was meant as "end-game goal" in a game without end. They are supposed to be just like that.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.22 18:04:00 - [42] Originally by: Hariya Originally by: Bellum Eternus Simply put: how do the developers expect T3 ships to ever be reasonably priced, particularly considering their level or performance (or lack thereof). They don't. T3 was meant as "end-game goal" in a game without end. They are supposed to be just like that. Everyone, say it with me.... Wrooooong.... Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Hariya	Posted - 2009.03.22 18:10:00 - [43] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Hariya Originally by: Bellum Eternus Simply put: how do the developers expect T3 ships to ever be reasonably priced, particularly considering their level or performance (or lack thereof). They don't. T3 was meant as "end-game goal" in a game without end. They are supposed to be just like that. Everyone, say it with me.... Wrooooong.... You are just a bunch of people whining about how expensive Ferraris are
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.03.22 18:12:00 - [44] Originally by: Hariya You are just a bunch of people whining about how expensive Ferraris are Not surprising, given that the manufacturer said they'd be priced like Golfs. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Deej Montana Caldari Outbound Flight	Posted - 2009.03.22 18:19:00 - [45] Edited by: Deej Montana on 22/03/2009 18:23:28 Exactly right Tippia! Any of you people complaining about others complaining about T3 prices ever read the dev blog comments? Devs said they wanted T3 ship pricing to fall in the range of 350 mil. Also; Pirate issue overstated, huh? So overstated that there was a recent front page ISD news item about it? http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2932&tid=7 No, that's not an RP piece either.
Khrillian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.03.22 18:31:00 - [46] You're mistake is you assumed devs have any idea how to estimate the prices of things they put into the game. They don't. T3 will be very expensive and stay that way to ensure risk/reward balance. I don't know how it's a "problem" that mods that are hard to get are expensive.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2009.03.22 19:17:00 - [47] Originally by: Luxior this whole risk reward thing is crap. people set up these articifial price floors because they want to gouge other players of their ISK therefore making the game less fun for everyone else. Theres no reason T3 has to cost billions other than people want more and more ISK with 100% profit off each sell. Its absolutely ridiculous. Theres no regulation of the market, its completely player driven with nothing to keep it in check. While this is good its also bad for the players who don't spend their entire evening on EVE because they actually have a life and have gf's or are married and have offline friends. i seriously think ppl on EVE need to not be so greedy. it's quite sad. Uh. Have you read economy 101 at all? In a market with low entry costs and free rules of competition the prices will always approach the alternative cost. These days alternative cost is L4 missions, with perhaps an average of 15-20 mil ISK per hour. Over time the profits from T3 exploration will approach an average of 15-20 mil ISK per hour as anyone that could make more money from running L4s will do that instead, while in a perfectly free market people who could make more money in W-space would do that instead. Only if the supply is limited by other factors (for example if too many people are incapable of going into w-space, for example by being too chicken) will the ISK/hour rise above the alternative cost. ______________________________________________ -My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn.
digital0verdose Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.22 19:27:00 - [48] Originally by: Bellum Eternus How do we fix this? Your knee jerk reaction is what is assuming something is broken. How about you give alliances, that are capable of handling the challenges of w-space, a chance to put forward a process which allows them to start pumping out T3 ships, and then based on supply/demand, determine if it is worth the time invested in making the ships. Three weeks after the release of a new aspect you are expecting everything to have been worked out. Have patience so that the full effect of what is going on can be felt so that CCP can make calculated changes rather than trying to force them to make hasty changes based on what has been read on the forums, your failed attempts at w-space or nearly failed successes. We could keep talking about this all day but you're too busy reading my sig instead.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.22 19:48:00 - [49] Originally by: digital0verdose Originally by: Bellum Eternus How do we fix this? Your knee jerk reaction is what is assuming something is broken. How about you give alliances, that are capable of handling the challenges of w-space, a chance to put forward a process which allows them to start pumping out T3 ships, and then based on supply/demand, determine if it is worth the time invested in making the ships. Three weeks after the release of a new aspect you are expecting everything to have been worked out. Have patience so that the full effect of what is going on can be felt so that CCP can make calculated changes rather than trying to force them to make hasty changes based on what has been read on the forums, your failed attempts at w-space or nearly failed successes. Again, another failure of a player misses the point. This has nothing to do with my personal performance in w-space. I've already worked out a very efficient approach to killing Sleepers and farming the complexes and mining gas clouds and so on. Sure it takes teamwork and concentration, but it's very doable. My point is about the man-hours required to produce a single T3 ship and the limits that places on the minimum price that can be set for a single ship and still remain competitive with other forms of income. Everyone keeps bringing up alliances. What do alliances have to do with anything? I'm farming w-space stuff in Tier 4 and 5 wormholes just fine with a smallish group of highly skilled players. It's really turning out to be much easier than expected to maintain a POS and generate materials from w-space than I anticipated, but that doesn't mean that we will continue to do so once the profitability decreases over time. And the only way to maintain the current level of profitability is to keep the unit cost of T3 ships very high, which will ensure that they remain unused for PVP for the most part. If these ships are yet another novelty then all of the development effort that has gone into their design is a waste. How long have BlackOps ships been in the game? How often are they seen in front line PVP? That's what I thought. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Cailais Amarr Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.03.22 21:22:00 - [50] Your posts seem to be contradicting Bellum. On the one hand you suggest T3 ships are not worth the risk to harvest the build materials you require to manufacture them. But then you say actually getting the materials is relatively straight forward and you're having no problems doing so. I personally see T3 and w-space as an alternate branch of ship production - you don't require 0.0 space in order to harvest the materials cheaply (as you might for T2) so it's within reach of smaller non-alliance corps. There's clearly a risk element in trying to establish and control .0 space to command those resources, so there should be for T3. However T3 shouldnt suplant T2 and make that .0 space reduce in value, so T3 shouldnt be naturally better than T2 - which, by and large, it isnt. So where's the problem? C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Azirapheal Amarr Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2009.03.22 21:30:00 - [51] Originally by: Akita T Re: T3 ship prices Dear CCP, we told you so Signed, the players. /thread
Pattern Clarc Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.03.22 21:44:00 - [52] Originally by: Azirapheal Originally by: Akita T Re: T3 ship prices Dear CCP, we told you so Signed, the players. /thread I think the main problem is that unlike tech 2, which introduced warping cloaked, interdictors, HIC's, stealth bombers and black ops, tech 3 ships don't actually do anything new tactically. Although the added complexity in the fittings mini game is nice, it was less needed than additions tot tactics and game play in pvp. The CCP ignored this, and instead made faction ships but at 25x the cost in manpower. /thread ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Turiel Demon Minmatar Inhumation Inc.	Posted - 2009.03.22 21:57:00 - [53] Originally by: Cailais Your posts seem to be contradicting Bellum. On the one hand you suggest T3 ships are not worth the risk to harvest the build materials you require to manufacture them. But then you say actually getting the materials is relatively straight forward and you're having no problems doing so. So where's the problem? C. I think you're confusing simplicity with being worthwhile time-wise when compared to other isk-making activities.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.22 22:06:00 - [54] Originally by: Cailais Your posts seem to be contradicting Bellum. On the one hand you suggest T3 ships are not worth the risk to harvest the build materials you require to manufacture them. But then you say actually getting the materials is relatively straight forward and you're having no problems doing so. I personally see T3 and w-space as an alternate branch of ship production - you don't require 0.0 space in order to harvest the materials cheaply (as you might for T2) so it's within reach of smaller non-alliance corps. There's clearly a risk element in trying to establish and control .0 space to command those resources, so there should be for T3. However T3 shouldnt suplant T2 and make that .0 space reduce in value, so T3 shouldnt be naturally better than T2 - which, by and large, it isnt. So where's the problem? C. I don't think that my posts are contradictory. I said that there is a lot of risk involved, which there is. I also said that my crew and I have Sleepers figured out pretty well and we're able to reliably and consistently produce results, which still isn't contradictory. The problem is that if T3 ships were to sell for 70-80% of the cost of T2 ships, then the effort required to procure all the materials and items required to produce them wouldn't be worth the effort anymore. T3 ships won't be worth using in PVP until their prices are down below T2 levels, and when this happens the amount of ISK/hour people will see from producing T3 material will be less than that of L4 mission running, ratting or any number of other activities including traditional manufacturing. It just won't be worth the time cost. Run the numbers to see how much material is required to produce a T3 ship and it's associated modules, then assign a cost to the entire assembly that is 70-80% of a comparable T2 ship, and then figure out just how much ISK profit the T3 producers made per hour when the ships are at that price. It won't be much. Right now people balk at even flying T2 ships, or hell, T2 fit ships, much less exotic faction stuff. How is it a realistic expectation for everyone to suddenly be on board with the idea of flying 300-400m ISK cruisers (not even battleships) into PVP with the additional problem of losing skillpoints on top of the ISK loss if it's destroyed? With no insurance? And that's assuming they'll even be below 400m. Who knows, they could stay well above a bil for months on end. And to top it all of, they're just not that special. All told, the performance stats are pretty boring. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.03.22 22:09:00 - [55] If you remember rigs/salvage when they were first released, there was quite a few balancing changes before we reached the equilibrium we have now. So CCP we will simply change drop rates until they get close to the prices that they want. There are a few T3 bottlenecks (namely gas clouds/bpcs/t3 salvage) that will have to be changed so that more T3 ships will be produced. You are also forgetting that a majority of the isk in sleepers comes from tags sold to NPCs which I find to be worth more than level 4s and prices for tags cannot be affected by the player-driven market. T3 will of course be obscenely expensive until CCP gets the drop rates correct, but that is far more favorable to T3 being insanely cheap and upsetting game balance negatively. Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking with regards to hull components and their capabilities instead of copying some cookie-cutter setup. Cry some more.
Cailais Amarr Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.03.22 22:17:00 - [56] Originally by: Turiel Demon Originally by: Cailais Your posts seem to be contradicting Bellum. On the one hand you suggest T3 ships are not worth the risk to harvest the build materials you require to manufacture them. But then you say actually getting the materials is relatively straight forward and you're having no problems doing so. So where's the problem? C. I think you're confusing simplicity with being worthwhile time-wise when compared to other isk-making activities. Not at all. Bellum was saying that the risk of acquiring T3 components would make T3 ships too expensive to become common place considering the ships attributes / capabilities. He expanded upon this by noting that because other ISK making activities make a 'lot' of ISK, anyone harvesting T3 components would charge a 'lot more' other wise they wouldnt bother. At this point we can infer that the cost of T3 exceeds their usefulness. My point is that if you make T3 better than T2, you devalue the resources needed for T2 and hence 0.0 space, which is where the prime ingredients are harvested from (moon mining). The critical point of course is that T3 offers a different route towards "better Tech" resource harvesting than claiming .0 space. It's risks are roughly comparable (danger of w space vs difficulty in holding .0 space) only the scale (small corp vs alliance) changes. The fact that empire space can achieve high rewards over time vs rewards over time in .0 / w space is a seperate issue that's been discussed ad nauseum on these forums and is pretty well understood. So the main crux of the issue isnt that T3 is 'broken' or that there is some imbalance between .0 harvesting and w space harvesting - but that neither hold much of candle to the defining mark of ISK generation - i.e high sec. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
IsoMetricanTaliac 2 Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.03.23 00:50:00 - [57] Yes with the current mechanics around the T3 ships production it is very unlikely they will drop in price for some time if the amount of time/effort is not tweaked a little. I mean at this time it has been 13 days since the expansion & yet still there are only a few of these ships actually sitting in a state where they could be flown (From what the forums are saying, so it could be wrong I guess hey) Is this a warning sign that maybe the amount of things needed to build the ships/subsystems is too high or that maybe the sleepers need to be balanced a little. With the amount of people that have been hunting sleepers in the last 13 days should it have taken so long for these ships to start being flown around? Whats it going to be like once people start going back to doing their usual things ingame for the people wanting to build these ships for sale etc.? I hope something is done to make these ships worth the hassle when it comes to building them for all of our sakes In a Time When Many Will Seek Death, There Will Always Be Those Like Me Who Won't Mind Helping Them Along Their Way!?!
Spurty Caldari Amok. Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.03.23 01:14:00 - [58] Zero sub-systems and ships for sale anywhere that I can see on eve-central. Some very interesting buy orders about as well lol. There are definitely people putting up POS's in W-Space to produce the ships and subsystems. Of course, these POS's are being popped the moment they are spotted, but the odds are in the production people's favor. Give it time, stop whining that you aren't already cruising around jita in your T3 ship. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too early to know, speculators, you are so full of win (not, thanks for crashing markets time and time again). Originally by: Butter Dog I think you'll find that 10 seconds > 1 month
Elite Qin Caldari APOCALYPSE LEGION	Posted - 2009.03.23 01:17:00 - [59] The main advantage that WH space has is that it's a LOT of fun to live/be in. The ones that are producing T3 ships are probably going to be the ones that are living in WH space, and they're going to be the ones that will live there even if it isn't great money. Why would they do that? Because EVE Online is a game! You pay your 15$ a month to have fun, and WH space is fun. If people are living in WH Space (which they will be, both for challenge and profit), T3 ships will be made.
Hegbard	Posted - 2009.03.23 01:34:00 - [60] I have a question. Why are people raging about strategic cruisers being expensive, while stealth bombers, electronic attack frigates and black ops remain useless and barely anyone makes long wall of text whines about the bad prices and risk vs. reward for them?
Spurty Caldari Amok. Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.03.23 01:35:00 - [61] Originally by: Hegbard I have a question. Why are people raging about strategic cruisers being expensive, while stealth bombers, electronic attack frigates and black ops remain useless and barely anyone makes long wall of text whines about the bad prices and risk vs. reward for them? haha the man has a point!! Originally by: Butter Dog I think you'll find that 10 seconds > 1 month
Sir Elliot	Posted - 2009.03.23 02:22:00 - [62] Edited by: Sir Elliot on 23/03/2009 02:25:12 There are two simple solutions, as anyone who knows economics recognizes. 1) Provide a pure economic incentive to w-space usage (be it any of the w-space activities). This is done by creating an environment where w-space economic activity is rewarded more than lvl 4 mission running (which seems to be a standard base line). Risk, perceived or real, plays a role in this. 2) Provide some non-economic incentive that players will value as equal or above the baseline (e.g., an experience). Currently wormholes are new, and so the experience of going there is valued above the baseline. That will eventually change. Experience has shown us that a large number of players view the perceived risk associated with low sec as quite high, and I suspect that a similar level of perceived risk will eventually strike w-space (due to the risk of being stuck, etc). Psychological studies have, interestingly, shown that humans value the reduction of risk from say 20% to 0% far greater than they value the reduction of risk from say 40% to 20%. Even though the level of risk reduction is the same, one is valued more than the other. This is a phenomenon that has been widely seen in Eve. And with good reason. Internet spaceships are risky business. You die, you lose your ship and cargo (and often your dignity . ) You may have to travel many jumps to get back to a place where you can refit (and then travel back, if you dare). If you're podded you can lose more (though sometimes that makes for a faster return trip...). That's part of Eve's appeal for many, but we must also recognize this reality when we discuss these matters. In WoW you turn ghosty and have to run a little bit. In WoW you can lose weeks, months, of work if things go sour. The only way to fix the matter (if it is indeed broken, which it appears to be from CCP's stated intent), is to either raise the economic incentive or provide some non-economic incentive. It would take a tremendous economic incentive increase to get those who are adverse to the risk to overcoming those risks (since they value not being ganked or pounded by NPCs rather highly). The alternative is to create a non-economic incentive. I am of the opinion that a non-economic experience incentive is the way to go. Perhaps empire space wormholes could always remain available on overviews once you're inside wormhole land. Perhaps the process of colonizing empire space w-space could be made easier. Perhaps some other approach could be taken. I would recommend dramatically multiplying the number of empire-space accessible w-space, and allow corps to claim some level of corp sovereignty, including securing permanent wormholes to empire-space and restricting access to outsiders. It would allow many to achieve their internet spaceship dream of having their own slice of the universe, but would probably still not pass the economic baseline of lvl 4 missions. This would provide the market with large amounts of affordable resources reducing t3 costs, provide an experience incentive that reduces risk enough for 'carebears', and would maintain the status quo in the other important areas of low-sec and null-sec.
Joss Sparq Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.03.23 02:25:00 - [63] I once enjoyed reading threads started by Bellum Eternus, especially the expansive first post of them. I would sit in front of my PC, rolling my eyes at what I saw and feeling very righteous in my (mostly) private opinion that the OP was absolutely full of (possibly steaming) manure. Especially when it came to Blasters. Sadly, times have changed and I shudder as I acknowledge that Bellum does seem to make a very good point. Now, I'm going to weep at the way of the world and possibly pay attention to my lecture.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2009.03.23 02:25:00 - [64] Originally by: Sir Elliot I am of the opinion that a non-economic experience incentive is the way to go. Perhaps empire space wormholes could always remain available on overviews once you're inside wormhole land. Perhaps the process of colonizing empire space w-space could be made easier. Perhaps some other approach could be taken. I would recommend dramatically multiplying the number of empire-space accessible w-space, and allow corps to claim some level of corp sovereignty, including securing permanent wormholes to empire-space and restricting access to outsiders. It would allow many to achieve their internet spaceship dream of having their own slice of the universe, but would probably still not pass the economic baseline of lvl 4 missions. So fixing it by beating it to death with the ugly stick? - DesuSigs
Sir Elliot	Posted - 2009.03.23 02:30:00 - [65] Edited by: Sir Elliot on 23/03/2009 02:32:08 Crumple, As a side note, eliminating the time-sink scanning mini-game would probably help matters. Right now we have a time sink that involves a mini game of moving 4 objects within a certain target in the proper fashion. I could go to newgrounds.com if I wanted that. Make ACCESSING the content easier, but UTILIZING the content harder. Making finding and getting to the sites easy, but put in hard skill requirements to do more than pew pew. The current method of finding combat site in WH space is great. Apply that method to other sites, but have the basic probe search be based on your skills. Either you can find the site or you can't, and you find out what you need to know in a few seconds, and then you don't waste time with the mini-game. This would address, though not completely, the matter of needing to get more materials to market. Then folks can get back to the twofold business of 1) Actually playing eve and 2) Maxing out a non-combat alt to utilize a non-combat game mechanic, as is already done for most other major functions anyways.
Relleh	Posted - 2009.03.23 03:06:00 - [66] Oh stfu and go away. Give it time and see where it goes before you go jumping into the stupid wagon. Remember, you the builder are the one to set this price. Regardless of the amount of time it took you to try and go building these things from the basic components. If you don't find it profitable for your wallet go away. I go to wormholes because it is enjoyable, it looks nice, the npc are a challenge and there is the threat of combat. I bring out 1800m3 of junk everytime, haven't made an isk since goin in but I enjoy it. Sounds like you need something else more entertaining lvl 4? also linkage please of where they said they want it cheaper then t2?
MajorMin0r Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.	Posted - 2009.03.23 03:30:00 - [67] Short version at bottom! Tech 3 ships are definitely novelty ships but by just looking at the bonuses they provide they are worth the isk for certain situations. Small gangs that need ships to fill multiple roles will enjoy the fact that these ships can do that. Take for example the proteus, can have a 36km point, great tank and you either make it a drone boat or a sniper hac. That pretty much mashes together either a lachesis and a deimos or a lachesis and an ishtar. Loki has an increased webber range so it can fulfill the roll of a huginn (cant remember the increment increase but as i recall its definitely not as far as the huginns webber range). I have not looked into what the caldari and amarr ones do (i know amarr has neuting bonus). So really these ships are designed to multi-role ships (ccp said they wanted to mix and match the best of t2 and t1 and they hit it right on the mark). I believe all the ships also have some sort of remote shield or armor repping bonus which encourages small rr gangs a lot. basically great ships if your in a 5 man gang As far as the isk to time and risk vs reward you keep on ranting about your forgetting a few things -this was just released and things usually take a while to come into effect such as the economy and how players adapt. you actually expect this to work right off the bat? why do you think its called wd 40? because wd 1 - 39 didnt work. -Tech 3 should be more expensive then t2 but it usually takes awhile for the market to settle so its still anyone's guess as to how this works out in the end. at least this time ppl in high sec have access unlike t2 -according to your logic l4 missions in high sec are the end all be all (wont get into this anymore than that as it is off topic) yet ppl go pvp, try to grab sov and etc. because its fun and they DONT want to do level fours because they are boring and they dont care if there wallet says 0 isk or 40 bil, they want to ENJOY the game most likely what will take place here is that players that want t3 ships will have to go and do the grunt work themselves, which isnt a bad thing because it may add a new dynamic to the game where pvp pilots can support themselves for there own custom ships. Yes you can go on and on about its not worth the risk reward blah blah you can say that about like 90% of the stuff in eve yet people still do those things. To apply a basic principle of economics you keep consuming something until it yield no more utility to you. To apply this to t3 ships, if flying t1 provides no utility and t2 provides little to no utility and t3 provides a large amount utility then people will take the time and energy to get them because the other two options do not provide the same amount of satisfaction no matter how much is consumed and you will have ppl who adhere to this logic. Short version: If your you not gonna fly it because it doesnt provide you extra satisfaction then why is it a problem? its not t2 is cheap either. What did you think ccp was going to give you something cheap and good aka can i haz porsche for 100 dollar?
Dr Resheph Amarr YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY	Posted - 2009.03.23 03:35:00 - [68] Tech 3 doesn't have to be reasonably priced, or even safe. It should however be different. 90% of the differences in Tech 3 come at the production chain or fittings screen. In combat, they're pretty much the same old. Same bonuses, same attributes, same slots, same modules, same capabilities. They took an entire tech level and focused it on versatility and affordability, forgetting that was the point of tech 1, and tech 2 went down that road as well. To confuse things worse, they did it for cruiser class ships which have the least gaps in gameplay. I have money, time, skillpoints to burn and experience to back it all up and yet I've got zero interest. The idea of flying a new race's ships is >>> tech 3.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2009.03.23 03:44:00 - [69] Originally by: Sir Elliot Edited by: Sir Elliot on 23/03/2009 02:32:08 Crumple, As a side note, eliminating the time-sink scanning mini-game would probably help matters. Right now we have a time sink that involves a mini game of moving 4 objects within a certain target in the proper fashion. I could go to newgrounds.com if I wanted that. Make ACCESSING the content easier, but UTILIZING the content harder. Making finding and getting to the sites easy, but put in hard skill requirements to do more than pew pew. The current method of finding combat site in WH space is great. Apply that method to other sites, but have the basic probe search be based on your skills. Either you can find the site or you can't, and you find out what you need to know in a few seconds, and then you don't waste time with the mini-game. This would address, though not completely, the matter of needing to get more materials to market. Then folks can get back to the twofold business of 1) Actually playing eve and 2) Maxing out a non-combat alt to utilize a non-combat game mechanic, as is already done for most other major functions anyways. If I am reading this right you want to remove the part of probing that makes it more than a brief chore so you can 'get back to playing EVE'. Unless I mistook you, that's a 2-hit combo of suggesting breaking awesome new additions to the game. - DesuSigs
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.03.23 04:44:00 - [70] I am going to play the we will see card. currently it looks a bit though.
Sir Elliot	Posted - 2009.03.23 05:05:00 - [71] Edited by: Sir Elliot on 23/03/2009 05:07:18 Quote: If I am reading this right you want to remove the part of probing that makes it more than a brief chore so you can 'get back to playing EVE'. You are reading me correctly. Chores drive people away from the content. But the economic matter at hand will only be resolved when more people access the content. Quote: Unless I mistook you, that's a 2-hit combo of suggesting breaking awesome new additions to the game. I don't view the new chore system as an awesome addition to the game. As for the other new stuff in wormholes, having people do chores to get to it will reduce the number of people who don't bother and instead return to the lvl 4 baseline. But more people are needed if resources will be brought to market, reducing t3 prices. As for the modifications to wormhole space, all I am pointing out is that steps could be taken to preserve the status quo for null and low sec, and preserve the status quo on non-empire wormholes, while also making empire level wormholes more accessible without disrupting our meta-economy (that is, not providing an activity that exceeds baseline). This would have the additional advantage of allowing more players to access more content, would bring more resources to the market (a good thing in regards to t3 prices, per the devs stated goal on t3 tech), and all of this could be done under the lvl 4 isk/h baseline. The fact is simple: because the consequences of dying in eve have the potential to be so severe, many players are going to place a significant negative economic value on risk of getting blown up. There is a reason that a huge number of eve players never cross into .4 space: Here be dragons. If the devs want prices of t3 to drop, it means getting those players that refuse to ever enter .4 into wormholes. The only realistic way that will happen is if a severely reduced risk option is available that provides an experience that will be valued above the baseline in opportunity cost. Empire carebears know that wormholes will result in gankage, and that they can end up not only losing their ship (which they value well above the ISK cost of the ship), but it can also mean being stuck in w-space not able to actually play EvE, or losing their pod. There simply isn't an economic incentive that's going to motivate those folks, so an experiential one is necessary. Right now wormholes are right there with low-sec: here be dragons. Remind me, How many empire carebears moved to low-sec for the better mission agents?
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.03.23 08:47:00 - [72] Originally by: Sir Elliot If the devs want prices of t3 to drop, it means getting those players that refuse to ever enter. You're right about the rest of your post, but wrng about that quote. You don't need it to be farmed by everyone just to increase the volume to something that would sustain the industry, you just need to increase the output for those who do it... ------------------------------------------
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.23 08:52:00 - [73] Originally by: Pattern Clarc I think the main problem is that unlike tech 2, which introduced warping cloaked, interdictors, HIC's, stealth bombers and black ops, tech 3 ships don't actually do anything new tactically. Although the added complexity in the fittings mini game is nice, it was less needed than additions tot tactics and game play in pvp. The CCP ignored this, and instead made faction ships but at 25x the cost in manpower. /thread They've released 3 of 5 subsystems... That would be the 3 combat specific subsystems, cause they're easy to implement and balance. You really think the remaining two subsystems to be implemented (per race, per subsystem slot) will be the same old, same old? See the GD forum thread asking for suggestions...
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2009.03.23 08:54:00 - [74] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: The Snowman early days...early days. This actually. Right now people are still gearing up for production, no baseline prices have been established. This entire thread is based on conjecture and nothing more. Yep, we had the exact same thing happening when tech2 first hit the market, so hardly suprising really... will take months for anyone to get a real feel for how it works out, and if how it works out doesn't fall within CCPs original idea, they'll adjust it.
Gilgamesh1980 The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.03.23 09:03:00 - [75] well in terms of price/cost, it's not that bad. TGA's industrial wing will be having the first Legion hulls and three subsystems come off the belt early this week. total cost for this was mainly just in the new POS but other than that, most stuff was picked up on the way Federic 'Gilgamesh1980' Chopin Supreme Commander and Diplomat of the Black Rabbits and Gurlstas associates
Reven Cordelle Caldari Lemuria Prospecting	Posted - 2009.03.23 09:09:00 - [76] T3 is the new T2, T2 is the new T1. Remember T2 when that was first introduced? Exactly the same amount of "OMGWTF PRICES" banter. 90% of the people going into W-Space right now do nothing but get lost or blown up. Until we get some wise chaps going into W-Space, we won't get cheap(er) T3. Its going to be months before we see a price that is sub-billion for T3 Hulls anyway. But yes, I agree that the fact T3 is made entirely out of Tritanium and Unobtainium makes the entire prospect of strategic cruisers nothing but fancy pimped-out rides for rich players that have ISK to waste. Nearly 2bn for one Proteus Hull, absolutely daft.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.03.23 09:24:00 - [77] Blahblahblah (no i didnt read the thread). Ya know why T3 ships are expensive/rare atm? Check skill requirements to build em. Most "lol empire inventors" have skills at lvl4. T3 ships need both cruiser construction5 (20-25 days) and racial starship engineering lv5 (20-25 days) just to produce HULL. Modules also need quite a few high skills: jury rigging 5 (10-15 days), and lots of support skills at lv4 (2-4 days per one). Assuming that only 5% of empire t2/inventor producers were maxed (yeh most did have one skill lv5 but other lv4 and so on) this means that ya need minimum of one month for people to catch up and actually start doing anything. For most of em look at 2-3 months of skilling (including reverse engineering skills etc). Ofc this is only one of causes. Others include lack of radar/magneto sites (yeh they are there but not as abundand as they should be), boring gas harvesting (so called ISK/hour, check prices for c-540) etc. But on other hand: CCP we told you so. Because i still think t3 ships wont come under 500m pricetag (with all mods). They need quite a lot of work (reactions, pos for reverse engineering, pos for production, running around wspace etc) and i personally dont see it being cheap.
Hyperforce99 Gallente Infinite Covenant United Front Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.23 09:26:00 - [78] i feel like I have to respond with this to the OP: "No one will need more than 637 kb of memory for a personal computer" Quote: "Bill Gates" Nuff said --------------------------------------------- Somewhere beyond happyness and sadness, I need to calculate what creates my own madness o/
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.03.23 09:33:00 - [79] Edited by: Tippia on 23/03/2009 09:39:53 Originally by: Reven Cordelle T3 is the new T2, T2 is the new T1. Remember T2 when that was first introduced? Exactly the same amount of "OMGWTF PRICES" banter. 90% of the people going into W-Space right now do nothing but get lost or blown up. Until we get some wise chaps going into W-Space, we won't get cheap(er) T3. The difference is that T2 (and certainly T1) are mostly AFK processes. You mine some minerals (afk) and/or plunk down an (afk) moon miner POS and run some (afk) refining/bp research/construction processes. In the meantime, you go off and have fun elsewhere (in an alt, if you are dead set on asteroid-mining rather than combat mining). No such thing with T3. Large portions of the process is non-parallelisable since you can't afk-mine the gasses or afk-produce the blueprints and certainly not afk-farm the sleeper salvage. This means that the whole process must pay for itself, time-wise. When you produce T1 or T2, those hours needed for gathering, refining and building can be spent on other money-making schemes at the same time, and you don't need to worry about how much that time "costs" you. With T3, the gathering process itself must generate as much income as those schemes before the value-adding production process is even considered. In essennce, ignoring the non-afk:ness of T3 production is very much like the tired old "stuff I mine is free" fallacy, except that the people who have the resources to get into T3 have long since understood the faults in that mode of thinking. So unless they see that the time spent gathering the resources pays back more than those other parallel-to-production activities, they're just going to ignore it. This fact will materialise itself either as prices far higher than what one might expect (they're adding an L4 ISK/h baseline to cost) or as a complete lack of goods (if no-one is willing to pay those prices). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2009.03.23 09:44:00 - [80] Originally by: Sir Elliot stuff Wormholes are a great addition to the game as they are, better to untie T3 production from them than to compromise them. You're essentially asking for the purview of carebears to be extended in order to mitigate what may or may not turn out to be a poorly thought out part of the game. Since wormholes themselves are seen by many as the best recent addition to the core of what EVE is as they are right now, turning even some of them over to the carebears because of the way T3 might turn out would be quite disappointing. Really, tying the production of a whole new class of ships which are intended to become relatively common into new NPC content which is intended to be more difficult than anything that came before was kind of a lulzy decision. Also, the probing system isn't a chore. Mashing a "generate" button on a random number generator over and over again is a chore. As it is now, aside from the "attack of the gravimetrics" the probing system is pretty nice as it involves the player actually using it. Making it easier would turn it into something just quick and obligatory, with no real room for interaction with it it would become a chore and might as well be removed. - DesuSigs
Jesum Amarr Black Rainbow Knights Unity Thru Aggression.	Posted - 2009.03.23 09:59:00 - [81] For people like me, who continually fly around in gangs smaller than 5 - these ships will be made worth using. ____________ [-..-] Jesum ♥
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.23 10:04:00 - [82] Originally by: Hegbard I have a question. Why are people raging about strategic cruisers being expensive, while stealth bombers, electronic attack frigates and black ops remain useless and barely anyone makes long wall of text whines about the bad prices and risk vs. reward for them? They are not so new, they are all niche ships and they dont come attached with 2500 starsystems.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.23 10:04:00 - [83] Originally by: Jesum For people like me, who continually fly around in gangs smaller than 5 - these ships will be made worth using. At least you know who will be primary.
Gun Gal	Posted - 2009.03.23 10:05:00 - [84] and once again, carebears find anything too hard and want to make it easier. and yes, i read all your rabid postings, comes down in the end to yet another pathetic attempt to make things WoW- easy.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.23 11:49:00 - [85] Originally by: Gun Gal and once again, carebears find anything too hard and want to make it easier. and yes, i read all your rabid postings, comes down in the end to yet another pathetic attempt to make things WoW- easy. To whom exactly are you referring? Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.23 12:10:00 - [86] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 23/03/2009 09:39:53 Originally by: Reven Cordelle T3 is the new T2, T2 is the new T1. Remember T2 when that was first introduced? Exactly the same amount of "OMGWTF PRICES" banter. 90% of the people going into W-Space right now do nothing but get lost or blown up. Until we get some wise chaps going into W-Space, we won't get cheap(er) T3. The difference is that T2 (and certainly T1) are mostly AFK processes. You mine some minerals (afk) and/or plunk down an (afk) moon miner POS and run some (afk) refining/bp research/construction processes. In the meantime, you go off and have fun elsewhere (in an alt, if you are dead set on asteroid-mining rather than combat mining). No such thing with T3. Large portions of the process is non-parallelisable since you can't afk-mine the gasses or afk-produce the blueprints and certainly not afk-farm the sleeper salvage. This means that the whole process must pay for itself, time-wise. When you produce T1 or T2, those hours needed for gathering, refining and building can be spent on other money-making schemes at the same time, and you don't need to worry about how much that time "costs" you. With T3, the gathering process itself must generate as much income as those schemes before the value-adding production process is even considered. In essennce, ignoring the non-afk:ness of T3 production is very much like the tired old "stuff I mine is free" fallacy, except that the people who have the resources to get into T3 have long since understood the faults in that mode of thinking. So unless they see that the time spent gathering the resources pays back more than those other parallel-to-production activities, they're just going to ignore it. This fact will materialise itself either as prices far higher than what one might expect (they're adding an L4 ISK/h baseline to cost) or as a complete lack of goods (if no-one is willing to pay those prices). Well said. What people don't get is that even after a large number of players become extremely efficient at 'mining' the materials for T3 production, it's still a very hands-on process unlike mining or other traditional T1/T2 production processes. Players will want to get paid for their time, particularly the ones that are capable of making a success of w-space, as you already noted. I don't see how T3 is going to ever be cheap enough to use in combat given the cost to produce them unless some major changes are implemented. And on top of that, even if T3 ships end up being 200-300m each, those prices will never keep pace with their lack of performance. And if the ships aren't worth the ISK, then the entire point of T3 is an abortion. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Sillas Cov Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit	Posted - 2009.03.23 16:12:00 - [87] 'And on top of that, even if T3 ships end up being 200-300m each, those prices will never keep pace with their lack of performance.' Bellum Um how the frack do you come up with a statement like this?? Have you flown T3 ships in varied combat situations?? Obviously not. I agree with the general theme of this thread, in that T3 will remain a time intensive and REAL life skill intensive production task. Most all of the tasks of T3 production resource gathering involve a GROUP of dedicated and skill pilots, and Eve is a very seductive mistress and will allways pull pilots from one activity to another a moment there is undue down time. Players will gravitate towards being busy as a soloist in the game and thus the frequency of worm hole T3 extraction missions will be easily compromised when the team is not availible. Ive seen this already with my worm hole activities, where I want to go and gather sleeper loot and my corp mates are not online or doing other things. Thus TIME required for production is the variable here that is the most important factor to T3 prices. Factors such as the usefulness of the ship, and its popularity are yet to be explored by the Eve community, but as I stated before T3 will not become an option until it IS and option within a pilots hangar. Catch 22 here. Sustained Demand of T3 ships will not take off until they are widely available and that's not going to happened until the intense time sink, that is the production side of this, is addressed. Hence there is a strong argument to increase the drop rate, so that when production corps and their members actually do go into action, they can come back with enough parts to build a significant amount of ships for the market. Given my limited experience I dont see how T3 production can be sustainable by a corp unless the members a completely driven to spent very significant amounts of time doing this. And how exactly does that translate into large numbers of cheap T3 ships on the market place?? Sillas
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.23 17:05:00 - [88] Originally by: Sillas Cov Have you flown T3 ships in varied combat situations?? Yes. I've flown all four types, with a very wide variety of configurations, under a very wide variety of combat situations. So yes, I am very well qualified to make such a statement. Secondly, even though most of the time pure EFT numbers are to be avoided, it is still perfectly reasonable to make some projections based on current known ship designs and performance, and what T3 offers. So again, the statements are completely relevant. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
gfldex Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.03.23 17:48:00 - [89] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Everything in Eve has a time cost. In a manner of speaking, L4 missions artificially set an ISK/hour baseline. Doing anything else that provides less ISK/hour is inefficient and doing anything that has greater risk involved should offer enough of an increased incentive to make it worth that risk. You imply that the value of ISK is fixed. You might want to think about that a bit more. --
Sillas Cov Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit	Posted - 2009.03.23 18:04:00 - [90] Bellum Dude the test server is not a fair replication the dynamic of Eve combat on the live server. Granted you obviously can gain significant experience from flying in a ship on SiSi, but really how far can you take that knowledge? I can tell you that the small gang run and gun combat of Factional warfare is only found out in the plexs and not on Sisi. Here destroyers are actually very useful ships... who da thought that before Fac war?? Does it not take hundreds of pilot hours for a ship to be understood as having a role within the Eve ship menu? And given the variability of the T3 designs does this not make predictive statements concerning utility and there for popularity rather short sighted at this point? Sillas
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.23 18:44:00 - [91] Originally by: Sillas Cov Dude the test server is not a fair replication the dynamic of Eve combat on the live server. Granted you obviously can gain significant experience from flying in a ship on SiSi, but really how far can you take that knowledge? I can tell you that the small gang run and gun combat of Factional warfare is only found out in the plexs and not on Sisi. Here destroyers are actually very useful ships... who da thought that before Fac war?? Synthetic combat environments will always produce specific limitations that will enable ships to succeed where they normally wouldn't be able to compete. No surprise there, and it's totally irrelevant to the discussion. Originally by: Sillas Cov Does it not take hundreds of pilot hours for a ship to be understood as having a role within the Eve ship menu? No. Not any more. Originally by: Sillas Cov And given the variability of the T3 designs does this not make predictive statements concerning utility and there for popularity rather short sighted at this point? No. T3 ships are not that 'variable'. There are very very few combinations that produce viable setups, and even amongst these the setups that are produced are extremely similar to current capabilities of existing ships. Their tank may be a little more or less, or their range or number of guns or whatever, but they don't have ANY new or exotic untested capabilities. They're more of the same existing stuff we have now. Nothing new. Very plain and boring. The point is, the T3 ships don't fly and fight any differently than any of the other existing ships. They may mix and match a few different sets of abilities like lasers and nos/neuts with the Legion, or the web bonus of the Loki or gun DPS with drones with the Proteus, but it's nothing game changing or spectacular. It's the same crap with a new wrapper. It's stupid that people keep regurgitating the same crap: "it's too early to tell, we don't have enough info, it's impossible to predict... blah blah blah." No, it's not impossible to predict, it isn't too early to tell, and we have plenty of data to base our decisions on. I'm out in w-space gaining first hand intel and experience, particularly in tier 5 and 6 wormholes. I really don't see many other people providing feedback from first hand experience. How about you? How many w-space systems have you been in? How many Tier 5 and 6 Sleeper sites have you cleared out? How many types of T3 ships can you fly, SISI or otherwise? 99% of the people who tell me I'm full of crap haven't experienced anything that I discuss first hand. They're talking out their collective asses. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Relleh	Posted - 2009.03.23 22:59:00 - [92] Edited by: Relleh on 23/03/2009 23:05:10 Edited by: Relleh on 23/03/2009 23:04:43 Actually, i have lived in W-Space since it was released. In my above post you will note that I bring out LOADS of the salvage everytime I get filled up. The only thing that truely is stopping me from having a ONE MAN SHOW of t3 production, is 1. Getting the fullerites out of w-space in a manufacturable quantity. (this is easily solved by doing the fullerite production in a w-space POS. 2. Finding those ever so elusive magneto and ladar sites with relics in them. Other then those two steps, t3 production is fairly simple....If you do it with friends, not by yourself. Quit trying to address t3 production like it is the simple process of t2 or even t1 production. It is completely different. Let the prices be what they are. Either they will sell at that price or they won't, that is all determined by the producer and the person with the isk to buy. Sounds like you just want a solo op like your lvl 4s that you claim to be the cream of the crop end all be all in terms of isk productive activites. Just because sleepers don't make your wallet flash every 15 minutes doesn't mean there is something wrong. Break out of the mold man. Edit: Still looking for the link saying that they wanted t3 to be as proliferate at t2 and cheaper than. Please guide me in that direction.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.24 02:19:00 - [93] Originally by: Relleh Actually, i have lived in W-Space since it was released. In my above post you will note that I bring out LOADS of the salvage everytime I get filled up. The only thing that truely is stopping me from having a ONE MAN SHOW of t3 production, is 1. Getting the fullerites out of w-space in a manufacturable quantity. (this is easily solved by doing the fullerite production in a w-space POS. 2. Finding those ever so elusive magneto and ladar sites with relics in them. Other then those two steps, t3 production is fairly simple....If you do it with friends, not by yourself. Quit trying to address t3 production like it is the simple process of t2 or even t1 production. It is completely different. Let the prices be what they are. Either they will sell at that price or they won't, that is all determined by the producer and the person with the isk to buy. Sounds like you just want a solo op like your lvl 4s that you claim to be the cream of the crop end all be all in terms of isk productive activites. Just because sleepers don't make your wallet flash every 15 minutes doesn't mean there is something wrong. Break out of the mold man. Edit: Still looking for the link saying that they wanted t3 to be as common as t2 and cheaper than. Please guide me in that direction. It's posts like the above that really make me wonder about people sometimes. Where are you getting the idea that I want w-space to be farmable like L4s? I think the exact opposite: I like everything about w-space and the new sleeper rats etc. What I don't like is the cost of T3 ships and their relative utility and performance compared to their price. They're just not worth it, and they never will be. And to reiterate, yet again, no I DON'T mind if they're expensive. I just want them to be worth the cost. Personally I'd rather have them expensive and exotic and high performance than cheap and boring, but whatever. I can afford T3 ships even at 1.5-2b per ship, but that doesn't mean I'm going to buy them at that price, if for no other reason than they're a joke performance wise. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Digital Solaris	Posted - 2009.03.24 03:05:00 - [94] Originally by: Bellum Eternus And to reiterate, yet again, no I DON'T mind if they're expensive. I just want them to be worth the cost. Personally I'd rather have them expensive and exotic and high performance than cheap and boring, but whatever. I can afford T3 ships even at 1.5-2b per ship, but that doesn't mean I'm going to buy them at that price, if for no other reason than they're a joke performance wise. Isn't this a question you should really be asking yourself then? And sorry for taking this offtopic, but your sentiment cracks me up; it is pretty much the same what a Apple fanboi would say.
Joss Sparq Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.03.24 03:48:00 - [95] Edited by: Joss Sparq on 24/03/2009 03:50:13 Originally by: Sillas Cov Here destroyers are actually very useful ships... who da thought that before Fac war?? People who hadn't blindly assumed that they suck, people who didn't mindlessly obey those who blindly assumed they suck. Originally by: Digital Solaris And sorry for taking this offtopic, but your sentiment cracks me up; it is pretty much the same what a Apple fanboi would say. HEY THAT WAS TOTALLY CONSTRUCTIVE AND A WORTHWHILE ADDITION TO THE CONVERSATION. LET US NOW ALL INSINUATE TOGETHER THAT PEOPLE WHO REALLY LIKE ONE OPERATING SYSTEM OVER ANOTHER ARE BAD AND THEN USE IT LIKE AN INSULT TOO. HEY HOW ABOUT THOSE >INSERT RANDOM RELIGION, ETHNICITY OR SEXUAL PREFERENCE HERE< I HEAR THOSE ARE PRETTY BAD TOO. MAYBE HE IS ALSO ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE AS WELL. WE SHOULD TOTALLY SUGGEST IT NOW INSTEAD OF BEING ON TOPIC. WAIT, WHAT WERE WE TALKING ABOUT AGAIN? OH, RIGHT. SHINY THINGS. But seriously, stop wasting my air or get off my planet.
Negerballerjunge	Posted - 2009.03.24 05:10:00 - [96] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Simply put: how do the developers expect T3 ships to ever be reasonably priced, particularly considering their level or performance (or lack thereof). simply put its called diminishing marginal returns. Generally speaking as things get more expensive they lose price to performance ratio and this is true of most things. EG cars Standard car model A - top speed 221 kmph cost 40,000 units Sports car model B - top speed 340 kmph cost 500,000 units model A - for every kmph you pay 307.69 units model B - for every kmph you pay 1470.59 units O M G - model B cost more per unit. Ahhh but heres the rub, if you looking for a car to win a race lets say model B is most likely gonna smoke A every single time given that we throw out ALL other variables. so model B becomes very desirable over A despite the fact it costs way more per unit. tech 3 ships are no different, you pay a hefty premium for those extra features but man will they come in handy when you can fulfill multiple roles at the same time. Also w-space is this very much in balancing mode. Did you actually expect it to work right off the bat
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.24 05:22:00 - [97] In other news... Farming the plexes in the Tier 5 w-space system I'm in has now become routine and boring. Even with the large amount of ISK to be made by farming the NPCs and gas mining etc., I've been in this new system about twelve hours and I'm already bored to tears. I can't just pick up and go do something else like I can when I'm in k-space. I'm stuck here for the duration until my crew and I decide that we've had enough and our cargo holds are filled to the gills with loot before I can go back to k-space. So for all the players saying that w-space has some sort of special 'cache' of coolness, it doesn't. The only thing cool about it is that local is in delayed mode, so it's fun to hunt and kill other players. But due to the fact that I'm in a Tier 5 w-space system, there's hardly any player traffic in it, and besides that, I'm not really set up for solo PVP at the moment anyway, considering our focus on making ISK from the resources here. Eventually there might be enough participation in generating T3 materials to drive the prices of the loot down and reduce T3 ship costs, but I have to say that it's so boring for me personally that even with the astronomical profits able to be had at the moment, it's almost not worth it to sit in here and farm this crap. It's simply not fun. The point of doing what I'm doing in w-space at the moment is that I can experience first hand just how easy or hard it is to produce the materials involved in making T3 ships, so I know EXACTLY how easy/hard/how much time it takes to do this stuff. So when some jerkface carebear starts running his mouth about how I don't know wtf I'm talking about, I can honestly say 'I've already been there and done that.' One major problem is that most high sec w-space systems don't allow BS sized ships in through their wormholes, so it's not much fun to stalk and kill people in those easily accessible systems. And the more dangerous systems (which require lots of teamwork to farm) don't have very much traffic at all because the solo and small group players just ignore them. Speaking of teamwork, we've been able to pair down our farming gangs to 3-4 BS maximum for even the hardest of the Tier 5 sites. It's just not that difficult once you refine your setups and technique. And the setups don't resemble PVP setups at all. They're just standard NPC farming setups with a more distributed architecture for tank/cap/rep/dps. I do think it's funny when you warp in your PVP ships on targets in a plex and the NPCs switch targets to you right away. At least that's more challenging. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.24 05:25:00 - [98] Originally by: Negerballerjunge Originally by: Bellum Eternus Simply put: how do the developers expect T3 ships to ever be reasonably priced, particularly considering their level or performance (or lack thereof). simply put its called diminishing marginal returns. Generally speaking as things get more expensive they lose price to performance ratio and this is true of most things. EG cars Standard car model A - top speed 221 kmph cost 40,000 units Sports car model B - top speed 340 kmph cost 500,000 units model A - for every kmph you pay 307.69 units model B - for every kmph you pay 1470.59 units O M G - model B cost more per unit. Ahhh but heres the rub, if you looking for a car to win a race lets say model B is most likely gonna smoke A every single time given that we throw out ALL other variables. so model B becomes very desirable over A despite the fact it costs way more per unit. tech 3 ships are no different, you pay a hefty premium for those extra features but man will they come in handy when you can fulfill multiple roles at the same time. Also w-space is this very much in balancing mode. Did you actually expect it to work right off the bat HAHAHA. That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. T3 ships don't have extra features and you can't fulfill 'multiple roles' at the same time with them. Their peak performance isn't any better than currently available ships, and again, their performance doesn't justify their cost, not even a little bit. I could see paying a premium if they were actually better, even just a little bit better, but they're not. Not even a little bit. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Dessa DesPlains Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.03.24 06:52:00 - [99] Edited by: Dessa DesPlains on 24/03/2009 06:54:45 He who does not study history is doomed to repeat it. -some famous guy How much was a Rorqual when it first came out? How much was an Anshar? How much are they now? Just wait. It will all be ok.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.24 07:17:00 - [100] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Questions on guide prices of Strategic Cruisers Ultimately you will pay what you think the strategic cruisers are worth . Once we are past the new and shiny initial prices, the material prices will filter down from there and how much value T3 resource harvesting rates and wormhole ops will have. However you can probably gauge yourselves how much you would be willing to pay for one and I personally would expect that price range to sit between 100-300 million for many people after the initial shiny phase is past.
Hyveres Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.24 07:24:00 - [101] As for the piracy whines when it comes to "Unknown space" I might be in a carebear industrial/miner corp but when we go in with a small fleetop to clean out some WHs we will try to eliminate any competition we find there. Same as any other reasonable corporation. Sites are scarce and having other people in there reducing your profits when you can simply remove them and maybe get some T2 salvage and hopefully some decent loot is stupid. "Subtlety is a thing for philosophy, not combat. If you're going to kill someone, you might as well kill them a whole lot." - Vulcan Raven, The Last Days Of Foxhound
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.24 07:44:00 - [102] Originally by: Dessa DesPlains Edited by: Dessa DesPlains on 24/03/2009 06:54:45 He who does not study history is doomed to repeat it. -some famous guy How much was a Rorqual when it first came out? How much was an Anshar? How much are they now? Just wait. It will all be ok. Price/performance? Are they worth their cost? Yes. Will T3 ever be worth their cost? I doubt it. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.24 07:58:00 - [103] Dear people telling variations of the following: "it's too soon to tell" "T3 is just fine as it is and should cost a lot" "T3 prices will end up at T2 levels" ...you are all idiots who either fail at reading or at comprehending. No, it's not too soon to tell, we've known pretty much everything there is to know EVEN BEFORE T3 came live on TQ. No, T3 is not fine, it's basically "slightly more overheatable T2", and as such, of negligible extra value compared to T2 (and on top of it all, intended to cost roughly as much as T2 anyway). No, T3 prices will not drop to T2 levels unless CCP drastically alters sleeper crap drop rates and w-space gas harvesting amounts ASAP, or at least heavily decrease material requirements instead alongside a major upgrade in reverse engineering performance (chance, number of runs, etc). _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Jalif Minmatar Black Sinisters	Posted - 2009.03.24 08:24:00 - [104] OK, IF t3 ships even reach the price of 350mil ISK (which I think they wont). But lets asume that 500/600mil will be the average price of them, 1 bil with faction fitting etc. Even that I doubt that. Go pvp-ing and you will get 2 things: - You won't get a fight at all because everybody is scared of you because probably its a HAC/RECON combination. - They blob the ** out of you with few ceptors to keep you pointed, BSs to keep the DPS up (and 1 of their neuts will you up to). AND they will use load of falcons because they are all killmail ***s. + 30man who would like to be on a t3killmail to. - You are in a gang with friends and you will get the 2 above. Good luck pvp-ing with it. As for PVE they might be perfect for stealthy 0.0 ratting instead of ravens. For missions I really don't see a use of them. People would consider the BS's more effective, oh better said, Marauders will do the job better then t3 ships and they are cheaper to fly with. A guy said on the 2nd page (srry, couldn't find you back for a quote): Why do we have these t3 ships while blackops, stealthbombers etc etc need some love and that are ships who we do care about. There is so much balancing needed in each race and a surtain handfull amount of shipclasses, why didn't focus CCP on that? For me t3 is a failure. I MIGHT would have it done if there was no POS involved for gasharvesting. And even if I was able to produce them and eventually fly them, I wouldn't be able to pvp effective in it (see above) SHORT VERSION T3 is useless and doesn't need any atention while other t2 ships and simple balancing need to be adressed who effect more people and would make overal gameplay better. \|Black Sinisters\|
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. I.C.C Industrial Drive Yards	Posted - 2009.03.24 09:22:00 - [105] I don't want to be an old fart, but this precise argument has been made about every new ship release since Eve was released. Some came down to reasonable amounts after those with more money than since bought the first model for an insane amount. Others didn't, or did, eventually. My point is that only time will tell. This is especially true about many ships that were considered useless when released and are not some of Eve's most popular models, no matter the price. Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said Originally by: Chribba Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero! /me bows
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.03.24 09:49:00 - [106] Originally by: F'nog I don't want to be an old fart, but this precise argument has been made about every new ship release since Eve was released. Some came down to reasonable amounts after those with more money than since bought the first model for an insane amount. Others didn't, or did, eventually. And again, the difference is that those ships all fit into the existing production pipelines. Sure, some might have required erecting a couple of new POS modules, but from there on the workflow (and thus the workload) was the same. T3 has a radically different flow and a vastly increased load — both of which need to pay themselves back in ways that the classic production lines do not. As such, the old models for price evolution are, at best, highly unreliable as indicators for what the future of T3 will look like. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. I.C.C Industrial Drive Yards	Posted - 2009.03.24 10:28:00 - [107] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: F'nog I don't want to be an old fart, but this precise argument has been made about every new ship release since Eve was released. Some came down to reasonable amounts after those with more money than since bought the first model for an insane amount. Others didn't, or did, eventually. And again, the difference is that those ships all fit into the existing production pipelines. Sure, some might have required erecting a couple of new POS modules, but from there on the workflow (and thus the workload) was the same. T3 has a radically different flow and a vastly increased load ù both of which need to pay themselves back in ways that the classic production lines do not. As such, the old models for price evolution are, at best, highly unreliable as indicators for what the future of T3 will look like. At the time, the same arguments were said. I simply don't buy it. T2 was a new paradigm. Then POSes and moon mining were a new one too. The bottom line is that people adapted. Sure, it's strange and new now, but that doesn't mean that it always will be. That doesn't mean that it won't, but what I'm really saying is that it's too soon to tell. If, in six months to a year, nothing has changed, then it's a problem. Until then, wait and see how the market unfolds. Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said Originally by: Chribba Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero! /me bows
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.24 11:00:00 - [108] Originally by: F'nog At the time, the same arguments were said. I simply don't buy it. T2 was a new paradigm. Then POSes and moon mining were a new one too. The bottom line is that people adapted. Sure, it's strange and new now, but that doesn't mean that it always will be. That doesn't mean that it won't, but what I'm really saying is that it's too soon to tell. If, in six months to a year, nothing has changed, then it's a problem. Until then, wait and see how the market unfolds. It's simple, really. If wormhole space DOESN'T pay better than L4 highsec missions (actually, much better, considering the heavily increased risks and inconveniences), people will soon run out of the novelty factor (as some high-tier wormhole explorers ALREADY have done) and participation levels will drop. In other words, wormhole explorers will expect certain (rather high) pricetags for their "manhours" spent gathering stuff needed for T3 in wormholes. At the current manhours needed to build a T3 ship, even if you consider a sub-L4-in-highsec per-manhour income level (risks assumed null), you still end up with a pricetag per T3 ship that's far above that of a T2 ship. And that was the whole point - it doesn't matter how long we wait, with the current system, T3 ships will NEVER have a decent enough price/performance ratio, they will NEVER cost as much as CCP claimed they want them to cost. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.03.24 11:12:00 - [109] Originally by: F'nog At the time, the same arguments were said. I simply don't buy it. T2 was a new paradigm. Then POSes and moon mining were a new one too. …except that T2 isn't different. It's more of the same thing, except iterated over a number of production steps: passive, calculable gathering → passive, calculable refining + passive, calculable BP management → passive, calculable production… repeat as needed. With T3, the gathering and BP management are active, full-attention tasks that result in random and unpredictable yields coming from sources you have random and unpredictable access to. The active element forcibly increases the cost of production since you can't parallelise the gathering with other money-making tasks — the time has to pay for itself. The random element means you can't predict what will be available to you without a massive effort that evens out the odds. T3 can only be reliably produced in massive numbers, but the question is whether those numbers will have enough of a market given the overhead costs of finding the required materials and BPs. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.03.24 11:13:00 - [110] if youre oging to find wormholes off busy high sec u will get pirates If youre going to do wormhole systems off quite amarr, minmtar, khandid high sec and low sec regions youre not going to be hassled very often at all in wspace. But yes if u find competition u have 3 options Attempt to kill em Make contact and set standings - maybe even co operate Ignore.
gfldex Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.03.24 11:28:00 - [111] Originally by: Bellum Eternus it's almost not worth it to sit in here and farm this crap. It's simply not fun. Name me one game where NPCs are fun. Your expactations where to high and now you are disappointed. That's your human brain for you. --
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.03.24 11:53:00 - [112] Check the sell forum. I had to dig to page 5 to find the first T3-related thread. Two weeks after the expansion, only one recent thread. Even in the one I found, the seller is already lowering it's price, because they just don't sell, novelty factor or not. When T2 battleships came out, they had skill requirments, both for use and for construction, far higher than strategic cruisers. Yet they generated much more threads than that. This is a sure sign of something being wrong. The novelty factor of exploration is wearing out. So the supply will be less, while at the other end, market prices for stratgic cruisers go down. That bring a huge pressure on the middle (the producers). It nothing drastic is done, production will die out, and will bring the economic death of WH with it... ------------------------------------------
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.03.24 12:30:00 - [113] What Bellum is suggesting is actually a carebear buff btw. Good T3 ships = Higher demand = Higher sell prices for your W-space loots = More incentive to do half interesting PvE content.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.03.24 12:55:00 - [114] Personally I'm waiting for CCP to do a repeat of Invention and increase drop rates and all that jazz so the price of stuff goes into the toilet again.. Cost me 1 billion, which was half my net worth at that time. Not doing that again --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.03.24 13:14:00 - [115] Originally by: TraininVain What Bellum is suggesting is actually a carebear buff btw. Good T3 ships = Higher demand = Higher sell prices for your W-space loots = More incentive to do half interesting PvE content. The ships themselves are good enough. Thought, if they're meant to be used a lot in WH exploration, one more high slot would be usefull for a probe launcher. Significantly improving them further would probably turn them into solopwnmobiles. What needs doing is for the component requirement to be beaten down with a club, or the component drop rates or gaz harvesting output to be decupled... ------------------------------------------
Pryde Tan	Posted - 2009.03.24 14:04:00 - [116] I think it is a bit early to say OMG prices are too high and will never change. Eve's economy is large are fairly realistic. What do we know about new items in the real world. Alot! Take somethig almost all us us have a MP3 player. My 1st one 4 years ago was the 40 MG ipod, the thing cost me over $400. Why? Demand was high, supply was lower, and production costs were higher. Today (ignoring that item it obsolete) a similar unit costs maybe $150. So what happened? In the rw productions costs went down (better methods etc), unit production went up, and demand relatively went down (market more competative, more models etc). T3 is the same thing right now production cost and meterials are expensive, and being the new big thing demand is high. Give it 6 months to a year. As for w space, I like it. My corp has had fun with the sleepers, and we even found a pos and knocked it into reinforced for the fun of it. So yes you can get big gangs in an out. We have the advantage of running worm hole ops from "safe" lowsec space where we currently live and basically control the system, which makes it much easier granted. But at this point effectively getting into and using the space is hard. But players will figure it out, we will figure out ways to get resorces out, and we will figure out how to "farm" sleepers. Just give it time.
Irida Mershkov Gallente Shadowsun Syndicate	Posted - 2009.03.24 14:17:00 - [117] Originally by: Sir Elliot Edited by: Sir Elliot on 23/03/2009 02:25:12I am of the opinion that a non-economic experience incentive is the way to go. Perhaps empire space wormholes could always remain available on overviews once you're inside wormhole land. Perhaps the process of colonizing empire space w-space could be made easier. Perhaps some other approach could be taken. I would recommend dramatically multiplying the number of empire-space accessible w-space, and allow corps to claim some level of corp sovereignty, including securing permanent wormholes to empire-space and restricting access to outsiders. It would allow many to achieve their internet spaceship dream of having their own slice of the universe, but would probably still not pass the economic baseline of lvl 4 missions. So basically you want to eliminate the whole thing that made W-space great?
Pryde Tan	Posted - 2009.03.24 14:26:00 - [118] Edited by: Pryde Tan on 24/03/2009 14:27:01 I agree. Sir Elliot's idea goes against everything that CCP said they want to do with w space. Mainly... 1. Brining exploration back to eve as more than a throw away minor occupation 2. Make new space that was wild, strang, and could not be perminantly occupied and soverienty could not be established. 3. Rework NPC AI 4. Was risky. 5. Would require new stratagies 6. T3 stuff. Yes things have not settled in yet and things may be a littel broken in places, but based on the Devs stated goals, they succeeded.
Karim alRashid Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.03.24 15:14:00 - [119] Really, I can't believe how many people can't understand such a trivial thing - if it takes you 100 man/hours of active gameplay to build a T3 cruiser, you'd be a frakken r3tard to sell it for less than 1.5bil (assuming 15mil/hour income baseline). No waiting for markets to settle, no wearing of the novelty factor, no nothing - the active gameplay time sets a hard lower bound on the cost of the ship. Not PRICE, COST. If you sell it for less, it begs the question why are you doing this, when you could have spent the same man/hours in 0.0 ratting or doing L5 missions and earn that 1.5bil. Other than being a charitable nice guy/gal, that is. (but I've already accounted for that in the rather low 15mil/hour figure). -- Pain is weakness leaving the body.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2009.03.24 15:18:00 - [120] I've read the whole thread. All of it. And it's one of the best threads I've read in a long time. One thing I'm seeing though is a lot of fuzzy terms, ideas and things floating around. So why not knock up a wee Fermi equation to look at it and make some guesstimates? Price(T3) = Price(Time(Non-AFK Activities)) x (1 + Probability(Caught by Pirates)) That's a basic guideline of costs x risk. I'm not including the time taken to train the skills, as you can still be making money whilst you're doing it. The time taken for non-AFK activities should be roughly 20mil ISK/h. I'm not including any one-off costs that will reduce over the course of the production (such as POS costs, manufacturing skills etc.) I don't think there are any costs relating to materials, as all the materials are obtained from w-space (correct me if I'm wrong). That represents a rough 'cost price' of T3 ships. From this, the two ways to reduce the cost is reduce the time needed to get the materials, or to reduce the piracy aspect. I don't think it's fair or viable to reduce the latter, so the only real option available is to reduce the time taken to get materials, which roughly translates into increased drop-rates/yields and reduced scanning time (as someone mentioned previously). I'd be interested in seeing what the perceived values for the piracy and time taken are from people who have been out there. As for the eventual market price - at the moment it's a seller's market. They will get sales, simply due to the novelty aspect (I wonder if Entity has got his yet ). In time though, people will need to look at the relative effectiveness of the ships compared to existing ships - which, from what I've read here and heard elsewhere, isn't so much to warrant the price. (Arguably the same could be said of tech 2 right now though - Raven versus Golem for example). Measuring effectiveness is an incredibly hard thing to do. I think it comes down to a personal perception of the value of ISK (how rich you are), and the added effectiveness to what you want to do. For example, I fly a Nightmare even though it only gives me about 10-15% more DPS for the same amount of tank as an Abaddon (I do missions, so this is how I judge effectiveness). The Abaddon is a tenth of the price, but because I can afford a Nightmare, it doesn't bother me to buy one for the minimal extra benefits. Personally, other that working out a rough cost price for the ships and seeing what the current market is selling it at to judge the current profit margins, there's not much more we can do until the market has settled. Originally by: Hegbard I have a question. Why are people raging about strategic cruisers being expensive, while stealth bombers, electronic attack frigates and black ops remain useless and barely anyone makes long wall of text whines about the bad prices and risk vs. reward for them? Well, I think people have just given up to be honest. There was a lot of complaining about it, and it does get brought up every now and then as part of another thread, but yes, I think most people have given up. This is to be expected though as they came pre-nerfed. People didn't swap to them and then have a nerf applied. So the number of pilots is very small, and such not much noise compared to other problems. Originally by: Sir Elliot You are reading me correctly. Chores drive people away from the content. But the economic matter at hand will only be resolved when more people access the content. I agree about the chores (I mean why can't I right click on a place in space and say to my probes 'converge on this location' instead of doing it myself every time?) The problem is, more people will access the content once the economic matter has been resolved (it's worth their time to do so). It's Catch-22, unless there is intervention from CCP. Which (quite rightly) won't happen till the markets have settled. -- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2009.03.24 15:20:00 - [121] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: CCP Chronotis Questions on guide prices of Strategic Cruisers Ultimately you will pay what you think the strategic cruisers are worth . Once we are past the new and shiny initial prices, the material prices will filter down from there and how much value T3 resource harvesting rates and wormhole ops will have. However you can probably gauge yourselves how much you would be willing to pay for one and I personally would expect that price range to sit between 100-300 million for many people after the initial shiny phase is past. I wonder if they had a look at the cost price before making this assumption? To get to that, it would have to be 4-12 hours in as safe space as they can find (I'm including their profit margin) to make a ship, or they'd be better making money doing missions. Given the risk that's out there, you could knock that down to 2-6 hours if there are pirates bumping into you all the time. Getting people in there is another matter. I don't have the player skills to enter w-space, despite having a huge range of useful character skills. I imagine there are a large number of mission runners who are in the same boat (except, of course, those PVPers who run missions to finance their habit ). I want to have a nosey in w-space, and see the shiny things, and poke around a bit, and maybe get lost. I don't have any illusions though that I'll be able to make a living out there, without a major addition to the way I can play the game. That's my choice though. To be honest, I don't think that w-space fits in to anything else in the game - it really is completely new. We can work out bits and pieces (like cost prices), but the rest we don't know, or has only to do with player experience. I'd say let's get a figure on the cost price, and ask CCP to adjust drop rates/yields/scanning times to accommodate what they, and we, want. -- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work.
Jalum Krayal	Posted - 2009.03.24 15:28:00 - [122] If they quadrupled the tag rewards from sleepers and improved scan probe data management, it would go a long way to vastly increasing the supply of T3 bits. Obviously lots of people will prefer to AFK mission in hisec, but for those who are willing to risk it, the ISK rewards from tags would be more desirable. My alliance has a POS set up in a Class 5 wormhole. It's a Cataclysmic Variable wormhole, so it's actually one of the best for remote armor repping BS fleets. At the moment, we can't do any of the content because we can't convince more than 5 people to join us in here. I estimate it would take 10+ BS to reliably clear the sleeper anomalies. If they increase the ISK tag rewards, I can probably get more folks to join my little group out here, thus supplying the market with more bits to build Strategery Cruisers.
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.03.24 15:58:00 - [123] I think everybody who is using a "so many millions an hour from level four missions" as an economic baseline is forgetting that there are a lot of us who would rather gouge our eyes out with a fork than do missions. Or mine veldspar, for that matter. I've been playing this game for close to three years now, and most of my active play is lucky to make me a few millions in a day. (The rest of the money I need -- and I'm poor for my age -- I get from desultory trading.) The activity in w-space makes more than that, so I'm going to stay at it, for so long as it continues to be fun, generating a continuous supply of Sleeper drops. Drop in the bucket? Sure. But I'm far from the only missions refusnik. For what it's worth I do agree that subsystems four and five need to offer some new tactical capabilities if the whole balance comes together. But I'm not sure we'll ever even see subsystem five -- the developer statement on that said its timing would depend on player uptake of T3, which I interpret as a tacit hint that they may not bother if T3 doesn't take off. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:24:00 - [124] Edited by: Tippia on 24/03/2009 18:24:18 Originally by: Marlenus The activity in w-space makes more than that, so I'm going to stay at it, *for so long as it continues to be fun, generating a continuous supply of Sleeper drops. …and that's the rub. In the end, it's only glorified mining and ratting. When that stops being fun, it comes down to who can streamline and mass-farm the process, and I'd imagine that those kinds of people are quite prone to take other alternative revenue streams into consideration when figuring out if the effort pays for itself. Not only are you a drop in the bucket, but a rather unreliable one at that… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki*
jmblack	Posted - 2009.03.24 20:31:00 - [125] An interesting data point for those that care... All prices are cost to build as of 3/24/09, with all pieces assigned values based on highest BUY orders. Data sync'd via eve central (see the Region, MinimumQTY and HrsofDataToSearch fields in the PDF for more insight) Legion$668,648,786 Tengu$668,648,786 Proteus$668,648,786 Loki$668,648,786 Legion Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter$370,474,239 Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector$370,474,239 Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating$370,474,239 Legion Electronics - Energy Parasitic Complex$279,172,602 Legion Electronics - Tactical Targeting Network$279,172,602 Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer$279,172,602 Legion Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector$590,317,884 Legion Offensive - Convergent Beam Focuser$590,317,884 Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers$590,317,884 Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization$514,724,853 Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst$514,724,853 Legion Propulsion - Wake Limiter$514,724,853 this puts a t3 ship at a minimum cost of roughly... $2,705,895,768 and that is JUST build cost, NOT factoring in the cost of the BPC or inventing (reverse engineering) a BPC. Do with that info what you will. More complete info linked in a PDF PDF link... http://eve-files.com/dl/192057
Oru Tek	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:38:00 - [126] Edited by: Oru Tek on 24/03/2009 22:39:28 I don't believe people have done the math on the fullerenes. If CCP just substantially increased the size of the gas clouds, that would probably greatly drop the price of t3 ships. I just bought some C84 for 24k isk per unit. A skilled player with T2 gas harvesters and top quality mining links can mine 5k m3 of gas per hour which turns out to be 1250 units of C84 per hour. That is 30 mil isk per hour. Now suppose that player were running 3 alts instead of one. That's 90 mil isk per hour per player. Compare that to regular missioning which can for highly skilled people with 2 or more alts get 40 mil an hour. Now the complaints I'm hearing are that people are running out too fast of useful sites. If gas clouds were like ice (with months of gas in each cloud), then the price of gas would be far lower. I'd say around 3k isk per m3 of gas cloud (including the risk of getting the gas out of W-space) rather than the current 6k isk per m3. So in my view, a simple solution for CCP is to increase the size of gas clouds. Anyway, I calculate that there is roughly 20k m3 of the various fullerenes in a strategic cruiser. That would be 60 mil isk at the prices above rather than 120 mil isk at current prices for C84. It'd also take between 1 and 4 hours of player effort for skilled players in a good fleet. I don't know what share the salvage has, but I gather it is a lesser share from the few parts I've looked at. Increasing the number of spawns or the spawn rate would help here. Finally, there's blueprint prices, which frankly are out of this world at the moment. Who knows what those will settle down to. TL;DR: drop moar to get cheaper strategic cruisers.
jmblack	Posted - 2009.03.25 10:53:00 - [127] make sure you figure in the cost of someone (a few someones?) to guard those miners. Even a SMALL sleeper spawn at the gas clouds / roids (ladar or grav site) is formidable to deal with, your miner likely wont tank it too well =/ + cost of the logistics, their arent exactly any stations in WH space. If CCP wants T3 to supplant T2 (big if) the drop rate of all t3 stuff needs to be increased, AND/OR the hybrid polymer reactions need to be changed to require less materials. As it stands we will have 3+bil isk CRUISERS that cant/wont be used for missions or pvp... no clue what niche a 3 bil isk cruiser has tbfh.
Oru Tek	Posted - 2009.03.25 17:05:00 - [128] Originally by: jmblack make sure you figure in the cost of someone (a few someones?) to guard those miners. Even a SMALL sleeper spawn at the gas clouds / roids (ladar or grav site) is formidable to deal with, your miner likely wont tank it too well =/ + cost of the logistics, their arent exactly any stations in WH space. If CCP wants T3 to supplant T2 (big if) the drop rate of all t3 stuff needs to be increased, AND/OR the hybrid polymer reactions need to be changed to require less materials. As it stands we will have 3+bil isk CRUISERS that cant/wont be used for missions or pvp... no clue what niche a 3 bil isk cruiser has tbfh. I think you overstate that need. I haven't heard anything one way or another, but I assume gas clouds explode like they do in 0.0 space. So you need ships that can tank the gas cloud explosions. Probably low end battlecruisers like brutix, cyclone, etc. You don't need ships that can tank sleepers. A cloud of light ecm drones (at 5k isk each) and a pile of backup ships should do the trick. That is, your tank is drones and a modest insurance payout when your ship goes boom. I don't know the effect of gas cloud explosions on drones, so those might need to be assigned to someone (say in a cheap frigate) out of range of the explosions. If there are no gas cloud explosions, which might be the case for some places, then you can gas harvest in cheap cruisers. This works much better if you can make the ships on the spot too. Point is a good sized gang with a couple of lookouts and a number of alts per player should be able to harvest a lot of fullerenes and pick up a bunch of sleeper salvage as well. That's a big part of the overall costs for strategic cruisers right there. No way cruisers will sell for 3 billion isk in the long run.
jmblack	Posted - 2009.03.26 10:32:00 - [129] I am 99% sure you get sleeper spawns (small ones) at the gas harvesting sites. For example: 1 BS and 2 cruisers or 3 frigates, depending on the difficulty of the WH in question. The BS spawn will melt a battlecruiser and eventually melt most BSs, let alone a hulk or similar. Even without the need for "protection" the cost of logistics (in time) is still quite high.
Obidom Jax	Posted - 2009.03.26 11:47:00 - [130] Welcome to Supply and demand Even if a player were to release a T3 very cheap the chances are some rich person would snap it up then put it straight back on the market at a silly price Personally I want a T3 but will wait until I can obtain one by myself, who knows how long it will take,
Galleter	Posted - 2009.03.26 12:12:00 - [131] t3 ships are made from lost technology, so they should be extremly hard do make, and should cost much. but i think t3 ships are too powerless - they firepower need to be trippled and jamming (weapon disruption, dampers) should not affect them.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2009.03.26 12:19:00 - [132] Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 26/03/2009 12:18:59 Originally by: jmblack Edited by: jmblack on 24/03/2009 20:45:49 An interesting data point for those that care... All prices are cost to build as of 3/24/09, with all pieces assigned values based on highest BUY orders. Data sync'd via eve central (see the Region, MinimumQTY and HrsofDataToSearch fields in the PDF for more insight) Legion$668,648,786 Tengu$668,648,786 Proteus$668,648,786 Loki$668,648,786 Legion Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter$370,474,239 Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector$370,474,239 Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating$370,474,239 Legion Electronics - Energy Parasitic Complex$279,172,602 Legion Electronics - Tactical Targeting Network$279,172,602 Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer$279,172,602 Legion Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector$590,317,884 Legion Offensive - Convergent Beam Focuser$590,317,884 Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers$590,317,884 Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization$514,724,853 Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst$514,724,853 Legion Propulsion - Wake Limiter$514,724,853 this puts a t3 ship at a minimum cost of roughly... $2,705,895,768 and that is JUST build cost, NOT factoring in the cost of the BPC or inventing (reverse engineering) a BPC. Do with that info what you will. More complete info linked in a PDF PDF link... http://eve-files.com/dl/192057 Did somebody forget ENGINEERING subsystems? :\| Tack on another 300 ~~mil~~ dollars. www.siigarikitawa.com ò www.quafeultra.com
Abigail101	Posted - 2009.03.26 12:20:00 - [133] I reckon it's far too early to tell what the longer term trend in T3 prices will be. To be honest, I was surprised just how many wormholes leading from hisec empire to the uncharted "J" systems I found in a few mornings scanning, most of them containing good stuff. The Sleepers are much tougher than the npc's we're used, true, to but it doesn't take long to adapt your tactics. And a fair amount of patience I do like the delayed local though, maybe that could be introduced in 0.0 (or has this already been discussed ad nauseum since Apoc?).
Zostera Minmatar Honour Bound Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2009.03.26 12:28:00 - [134] SOmetime way back in 2005 you could expect to pay $1,400 for a 42" plasma TV. Today you will the same item (probably better all round) for as little $600. The drop in price is a reflection of a number of things. Development costs are recovered over time, and once gone the price will come down. As production increases the process becomes more efficient. Raw materials bulk purchase goes up, the cost per unti goes down. Increasing demand sparks more competition. Being a sandbox game EvE will likely follow these very same rules. The time invested to understand construction and such is a one off cost right now. As players begin to understand sleepers the farming will go up. As the cost comes down the demand will increase and then people will compete to sell their ships. What we are seeing now is the very early market, one in which the makers will make hay while that little wormhole sun shines. Zos
Discrodia Gallente Independent Miners Guild Guild Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.26 12:39:00 - [135] Okay, no major intent to rain on anyones parade, but how many of you have actually attempted this any way other than solo? As far as I have seen, a decent sized group (5-10 people) can take on most any signature and some of the mid-level anomolies. Considering from doing about, oh... 5 WH's I have enough T3 salvage to make a full set of components, and once my gas harvesting training is done, we can get all the components of a T3 ship (Aside from blueprints) in a few days of work. Considering that they'll be priced at, oh, 1-1.5 bil, I don't think that's a major failure risk vs reward here. Maybe the OP should get some more gang mates. Also: Ever done something because it's fun and interesting, not just because you make money? ______________________________________________ Discrodia > SILENCE! I KILL YOU! Northern Fall > They're just sleepers disc...
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.26 13:06:00 - [136] Originally by: Discrodia Okay, Considering from doing about, oh... 5 WH's I have enough T3 salvage to make a full set of components, and once my gas harvesting training is done, we can get all the components of a T3 ship (Aside from blueprints) in a few days of work. "Aside from blueprints" is a big hole in your production program. Without them all the rest is junk. Originally by: Discrodia Considering that they'll be priced at, oh, 1-1.5 bil, I don't think that's a major failure risk vs reward here. Maybe the OP should get some more gang mates. So you recognize that the cruisers will be priced at 1-1.5 billions? The whole point of Bellum Op is that they are not worth the sell price performance wise. So how many you think you can sell to collectors? As fun activity to collect enough stuff to build 1 cruiser every so often WH are OK, as a high risk industrial activity they aren't.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.26 13:25:00 - [137] Originally by: Jalif Go pvp-ing and you will get 2 things: - You won't get a fight at all because everybody is scared of you because probably its a HAC/RECON combination. - They blob the ** out of you with few ceptors to keep you pointed, BSs to keep the DPS up (and 1 of their neuts will you up to). AND they will use load of falcons because they are all killmail *s. + 30man who would like to be on a t3killmail to. - You are in a gang with friends and you will get the 2 above. Good luck pvp-ing with it. How to profit in 4 easy steps: 1) Buy a tengu, fit all out passive tank. 2) Take on a 30 man gang with 14 of your friends. 3) * 4) Profit. How do you get from step 2 to step 4? Well, assuming you're facing 30 people who think like you posted above then it's quite easy. Assuming you know how to pew pew.
Lea Re Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.03.26 13:34:00 - [138] anyone remembers early t2 prices ? nowadays they are at what... 10% of what they used to be? sure, there was some new stuff and balancing introduced, but still.. talking about t3 prices 2 weeks after launch is a bit pointless
jmblack	Posted - 2009.03.28 00:53:00 - [139] Biggest issue is that IF the prices come down... even 50% (so we'd get the BUILD COST of a t3 cruiser as 1.5BIL) less if a HUGE issue for me. a WH gang is going to be made up of multiple people. So (WH loot profit / # of ppl in gang) = individuals profit from WH op. At the moment Class 5 Wh'ing for HOURS, smoothly, successfully, efficiently... is BARELY as profitable as LVL4s. Which is fine with me tbh. If it becomes 1/2 as profitable It'll need to be re thinked. We have 2 competing issues. 1) Cost of t2 is too high 2) Cost of WH loot is atm decent, NOT as good as 0.0 ratting. Roughly as good as lvl4s. If supply goes up (in general) without going up per op and price goes down (per op)... it wont be profitable. IMO the drop from each rat needs to be INCREASED which will drive prices DOWN without necessarily effecting profit per op.
Mari Katarin	Posted - 2009.03.28 04:47:00 - [140] Originally by: Lea Re anyone remembers early t2 prices ? nowadays they are at what... 10% of what they used to be? sure, there was some new stuff and balancing introduced, but still.. talking about t3 prices 2 weeks after launch is a bit pointless You're comparing apples and tractors. T2 prices were sky high because the bottleneck in their production could only be resolved by "luck" or "dev cheating." Very few prints out there meant little to no competition for those who had one. No amount of luck will cut down the gas mining required to get t3 cruisers. Until we get a LOT more of the "stuff I mine myself is free lol" guys in w-space t3 gunk will remain expensive. That, cheats to spawn the fullerines or a change in mining rates or amount required is the only thing that'll push t3 cruisers below half a billion to a billion. Outside of Siigara the market for that sort of toy is completely non-existent.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.03.28 05:45:00 - [141] Quote: 1) Cost of t2 is too high Errr, you are currently getting your T2 ships for a pittance. Its just much of a pittance as it was a few months ago. ===== Yeah, VC is back, and we have a bone to pick with you.
Luxior	Posted - 2009.03.28 06:25:00 - [142] what people don't realize... if people were to flood the market with T3 subsystems and ships there would obviously be a huge demand... so rather than selling for ridiculous amounts of ISK to a few players they instead sold for a reasonable amount of ISK for thousands of players... i believe if you do the math these manufactures would get rich quicker... but wait, who would do that...
SniperWo1f Omega Enterprises Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.03.28 07:51:00 - [143] t3 in a nutshell we realise pos and sovereignity mechanics are tedious so in an effort to make it easier we will implement an even more complex and tedious game mechanic to make the previous game mechanics seem simple in comparison. "In Rust We Trust"
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.03.28 09:32:00 - [144] Quote: i seriously think ppl on EVE need to not be so greedy. it's quite sad. Welcome to mankind, where unknowns kill you and your family to rob your USD 50 cell phone. Quote: The entire basis of this argument is that WH space is not as lucrative as Level 4's. So what? Its new, very different and good fun. As such there will be people willing to try it. and Quote: So the main crux of the issue isnt that T3 is 'broken' or that there is some imbalance between .0 harvesting and w space harvesting - but that neither hold much of candle to the defining mark of ISK generation - i.e high sec. The entire content of the last weeks posts, on multiple boards has been: - L4 missioning rewards became >> mining. - L4 missioning rewards are > exploration - L4 missioning rewards are >> T3 manufacturing - L4 missioning is the now established term of comparison of what gives tons of money for little risk. I foresee a severe L4 missioning nerf, possibly in the form of adopting Sleepers AI and features into the L4 missions. Quote: Your posts seem to be contradicting Bellum. On the one hand you suggest T3 ships are not worth the risk to harvest the build materials you require to manufacture them. But then you say actually getting the materials is relatively straight forward and you're having no problems doing so. He is saying that competing against AFK ISK activities costs and requires effort. Even a moderate effort is > AFK effort and thus it's not worth pouring any effort if the result is inferior to established and safe other ways. Quote: My point is that if you make T3 better than T2, you devalue the resources needed for T2 and hence 0.0 space, which is where the prime ingredients are harvested from (moon mining). The critical point of course is that T3 offers a different route towards "better Tech" resource harvesting than claiming .0 space. It's risks are roughly comparable (danger of w space vs difficulty in holding .0 space) only the scale (small corp vs alliance) changes. I'd like to expand on this. T3 might be as well a fake name for "another T2" (hence the intentions of keeping similar costs). T2 sounds like: "big 0.0 alliance territory. They need many and good and streamlined, very single task oriented ships. Big guns are also needed". T2B aka T3 sounds like: "alternate T2 for those who can't get into 0.0 or for smaller alliances. They need versatile setups due to lower numbers, even at the cost of having it involved. Ships won't be single task oriented nor priority is on the biggest guns".
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.03.28 09:59:00 - [145] Edited by: Shadowsword on 28/03/2009 10:00:41 18 days after apocrypha: Not a single strategic sale happened in the Forge market (jita region). Not one. Not because of price, but because there isn't any to buy. In contracts (all regions), only one strategic cruiser alaivable, for 3.99 billions. In contracts, only 11 strategic cruiser BPCs on sale, all for 1.5B and more. Draw you own conclusions, but if that easily gathered data isn't ringing all types of alarm bells in CCP, I don't know what will... ------------------------------------------

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