Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
ChalSto
Gallente LOCKDOWN. Force Of Evil
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:20:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Well playing Eve is voluntary at the end of the day. If the goons don't like that Band of Brothers (kinda) got their name back then they aren't being forced to continue their subscription payments.
Lets get it into perspective.
Within the letter of the game documentation the alliance disband wasn't apparently possible in the first place.
If ccp are going to honour "Hargoth" disbanding the orginal alliance and take no action against Goons reinstituting a Band of Brothers alt corp purely to post spam on CAOD with while impersonating an in-game entity against past eula guidance then it seems absolutely reasonable that a compromise is reached and they let BOB rename their current alliance to a form that respects the gameplay investment of its member base in previous years.
This current threadnaughting on the other hand is immature foot-stamping at best and I think the actual Eve community (as opposed to the SA community) will be getting a bit tired of goons throwing their toys out of prams every time the slightest thing goes against them by now.
Whineswarm strikes again.
Just grow up and play the game.
Win
At the end of the day, Molle will be still right:
"You are all dead, you just dont know yet"
Originally by: Agmar ----------------------------------------------- "The North is so ghey that even the NPCs fly ravens." |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:21:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Lumen Atra
So, what do you think of the fact that beaver (aka Kenny) didn't have to lose sov or pay 1bil to change their name? I believe this is the biggest issue people, not just goons, are taking issue with.
I'd guess that was the GM decision based on petitions that would have been made at the time against goonswarm exploiting the naming mechanic - its probably taken several weeks to come to this decision and its something they will have considered pretty fair and reasonable. Who knows, maybe bob paid the gm's 1b to do it. Unlikely we'll ever know.
And from what I can see its virtually 100% goons and goonish coalition members that are currently threadnaughting.
Quote: Do you believe this to be a fair decision and, if so, why?
I think its an entirely fair decision.
But if it was me - I'd have renamed the goon Band of Brothers corp to "corpname1131301931" within about 24 hours of it being done and allowed molle to recreate Band of Brothers if he wanted to do it.
To my taste there is absolutely no good that comes to the game of eve online by letting people destroy the identity of in-game corporations and alliances with sordid little metagamy exploits like blocking alliance naming with alt corps.
ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD |
Dog Solitude
Minmatar Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:21:00 -
[93]
Originally by: teji Edited by: teji on 24/03/2009 00:10:47 Wow, you have no brains.
I just feel like this is you not trying.
Goons and pandemic legion as the good guys protecting us eve players from unjust game developers. hehe.
Man, its crazy your allies bought into all that stuff. But hate goes a long way, in our out of game.
|
Itzena
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:22:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 24/03/2009 00:09:56
Originally by: The Qat there was no cheating involved, they were disbanded by a person with the correct permissions who wished to disband them
Really, I think you are failing to read the argument.
If (for example) my alliance was disbanded in this way and somebody went ahead and created a corp called "the star fraction" to block me from recreating "the star fraction" alliance I'd consider that cheating and a direct exploit of the entity naming system in eve online.
Not 'if' but 'when'
|
Igus
Gallente M. Corp Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:24:00 -
[95]
Couple things I'm curious about,
1st, how does Atari feel when the company they are publishing for openly cheats(tm) to help a group of players, which could potentially hurt sales due to reputation? (probably a moot point since Atari is desperate for cash and will ***** themselves out to anyone.)
2nd, didn't ccp learn from the last several times they 'bent' the rules?
3rd, wouldn't it be funny to see CCP's marketing department **** them selves, if a lot people just canceled their accounts, (doesn't matter if you are going to reactivate it or not, just to know marketing had a **** storm)
4th, who wants to bet someone gets fired over this :), it was probably a GM not dev, because a dev would have to be fraking ******ed to do something like and risk their job in this economy. (but who knows internet spaceships are serial bizness)
/me grabs bucket of popcorn, and petting my beaver while the drama ensues.
-- Uhg, I think I need a flux capacitor
|
Lord Benz
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:24:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
HURF DURF BLURF
1. Shut up 2. Get out
|
Lord Benz
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:26:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Lord Benz on 24/03/2009 00:26:26
Originally by: Dog Solitude
Originally by: teji Edited by: teji on 24/03/2009 00:10:47 Wow, you have no brains.
I just feel like this is you not trying.
Goons and pandemic legion as the good guys protecting us eve players from unjust game developers. hehe.
Man, its crazy your allies bought into all that stuff. But hate goes a long way, in our out of game.
Hahahahahahaha You're one to talk about being swindled.
|
Ishbuanium
Gallente Black Skull Legion No Apology
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:26:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Just saying what I guess most CAOD readers outside the goonswarm coalition are thinking
Get your self important head out of your own arse and realize that you don't speak for me. Ever. I like to think I might be speaking for a few more people than you are.
|
Lofe sXe
Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:27:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Julian Shran
Originally by: Tobruk just found this as i was about to make my own
Disband BOBR
do your part
Let us not forget this thread...
Please check in and vote...
|
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:28:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Itzena
Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 24/03/2009 00:09:56
Originally by: The Qat there was no cheating involved, they were disbanded by a person with the correct permissions who wished to disband them
Really, I think you are failing to read the argument.
If (for example) my alliance was disbanded in this way and somebody went ahead and created a corp called "the star fraction" to block me from recreating "the star fraction" alliance I'd consider that cheating and a direct exploit of the entity naming system in eve online.
Not 'if' but 'when'
Case in point.
You consider this kind of thing valid gameplay.
I consider it cheating.
Rather than attacking CCP for its "bias" you goons should be praising your lucky stars that CCP turns a blind eye to the destructive anti-game vendettas your leadership periodically unleashes onto the official forums.
You are quite deluded if you think ANY other developer would let you get away with this stuff.
ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD |
|
Kachiko Sama
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:29:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Dog Solitude
Man, its crazy your allies bought into all that stuff. But hate goes a long way, in our out of game.
Speaking of allies buying stuff, have EXE been given any kickbacks by rich russians recently? A few dreads maybe, a titan if you're really good pets and toe the line on COAD?
Nothing you say is credible.
|
Lunas Feelgood
Gallente S.A.S Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:31:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Well playing Eve is voluntary at the end of the day. If the goons don't like that Band of Brothers (kinda) got their name back then they aren't being forced to continue their subscription payments.
Lets get it into perspective.
Within the letter of the game documentation the alliance disband wasn't apparently possible in the first place.
If ccp are going to honour "Hargoth" disbanding the orginal alliance and take no action against Goons reinstituting a Band of Brothers alt corp purely to post spam on CAOD with while impersonating an in-game entity against past eula guidance then it seems absolutely reasonable that a compromise is reached and they let BOB rename their current alliance to a form that respects the gameplay investment of its member base in previous years.
This current threadnaughting on the other hand is immature foot-stamping at best and I think the actual Eve community (as opposed to the SA community) will be getting a bit tired of goons throwing their toys out of prams every time the slightest thing goes against them by now.
Whineswarm strikes again.
Just grow up and play the game.
What a massive tool you are.. You telling people to grow up whne you act like a little child youself..
This is not about a name change this is not about what happend to BOB.. This is about the game itself.. Not about factions, enemies or friends its about the game. The little virtuel reality thousends of people play. This little virtuel reality is bound by surden universal rules.. Just like in real life, there is rules of nature, rules we cant change, no matter how much we will.. For example gravity
What would happend if surdenly the chinese defided gravity by some higher godly intervention. I bet the rest of the world will start wondering wtf is going on..
We play in a virtuel world were we expect all players to follow these rules. Becuase without rules we get chaos.. So this is not bout a silly name or sov issues this is about the game itself..
Thats why people are ****ed.. And im preatty sure you intelligent enough to realise this.
Originally by: Jade Constantine You can't expect seasoned Eve players with an awareness of history
Originally by: BOB
"I played EVE for 5 years and all I got left is crappy forum alts"..
|
Kachiko Sama
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:33:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Lunas Feelgood And im preatty sure you intelligent enough to realise this.
I will give you 50m isk if Jade ever admits he is wrong on this issue.
|
Dog Solitude
Minmatar Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:33:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Kachiko Sama
Originally by: Dog Solitude
Man, its crazy your allies bought into all that stuff. But hate goes a long way, in our out of game.
Speaking of allies buying stuff, have EXE been given any kickbacks by rich russians recently? A few dreads maybe, a titan if you're really good pets and toe the line on COAD?
Nothing you say is credible.
You keep on totin that line Kachiko. <3
|
Challic
Minmatar Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:35:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Challic on 24/03/2009 00:35:30
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Words that don't matter
Dude...step back from the CCP rod, you are making a mess. Seriously, sucking up and bobbing on the rod isn't going to make you more credible in the eyes of the other 95% of eve that knows you are a complete tool.
|
Itzena
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:37:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Itzena
Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 24/03/2009 00:09:56
Originally by: The Qat there was no cheating involved, they were disbanded by a person with the correct permissions who wished to disband them
Really, I think you are failing to read the argument.
If (for example) my alliance was disbanded in this way and somebody went ahead and created a corp called "the star fraction" to block me from recreating "the star fraction" alliance I'd consider that cheating and a direct exploit of the entity naming system in eve online.
Not 'if' but 'when'
Case in point.
You consider this kind of thing valid gameplay.
I consider it cheating.
Rather than attacking CCP for its "bias" you goons should be praising your lucky stars that CCP turns a blind eye to the destructive anti-game vendettas your leadership periodically unleashes onto the official forums.
You are quite deluded if you think ANY other developer would let you get away with this stuff.
What you, personally, consider cheating is irrelevant.
|
Gail Sohmbadi
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:37:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Ishbuanium
Originally by: Jade Constantine Just saying what I guess most CAOD readers outside the goonswarm coalition are thinking
Get your self important head out of your own arse and realize that you don't speak for me. Ever. I like to think I might be speaking for a few more people than you are.
I can only hope that the disparity between who JC believes (s)he speaks for, and who (s)he ACTUALLY speaks for becomes obvious enough in the near future to deny him/her an additional undeserved term on the CSM.
|
Challic
Minmatar Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:39:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Gail Sohmbadi
Originally by: Ishbuanium
Originally by: Jade Constantine Just saying what I guess most CAOD readers outside the goonswarm coalition are thinking
Get your self important head out of your own arse and realize that you don't speak for me. Ever. I like to think I might be speaking for a few more people than you are.
I can only hope that the disparity between who JC believes (s)he speaks for, and who (s)he ACTUALLY speaks for becomes obvious enough in the near future to deny him/her an additional undeserved term on the CSM.
He suffers from a n a l asphyxiation. It's a terrible thing, but the doctors say that one day he may lead a normal and healthy life.
|
Zumbala
Gallente ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:40:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Palmer Eldritch But not as far as the rules of the game are concerned.
Well I know that GM's will rename individual characters and corporations that are attempting to pass themselves off as something they are not.
I know that GM's will give players warnings for some kinds of obstructive gameplay that exploits a mechanic to damage the enjoyment and gameplay of other players.
Try perma-bumping a freighter in hisec to prevent the player from approaching a gate and see how long it takes for you to be told to stop it for example.
This decision to obstruct the recreation of band of brothers alliance by sitting on a corp name was intentional exploitation of the naming mechanic to block a group of players from re-establishing their identity.
Its cheating.
CCP should have simply renamed your corp and let Band of Brothers be recreated properly.
Instead they have done a compromise.
No point crying about it - just play the game.
That is definitly not the same thing. The BoB corp was created not to fake being The BoB alliance. That is the main difference. No one who know the alliance BoB could decently pretend that the corp in Goonswarm called BoB is the same thing. They did not try to stell their identity, really.
|
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:41:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Lunas Feelgood This is not about a name change this is not about what happend to BOB.. This is about the game itself.. Not about factions, enemies or friends its about the game. The little virtuel reality thousends of people play. This little virtuel reality is bound by surden universal rules.. Just like in real life, there is rules of nature, rules we cant change, no matter how much we will.. For example gravity...
Of course you are completely wrong. Rules change when they need to. Its clear to everyone outside the goon coalition that the alliance disband was ridiculous. For 3000 players to lose their alliance identity with one-click from a director level emocide while I can't even fire somebody from my corp without a 24 hour waiting period is the height of insanity.
It was an embarrassment for a game that sells itself on alliance building and space empires to allow a glitch like this to suddenly totally imbalance a huge space war and deliver an entirely hollow victory to a side that hadn't hitherto fired a shot in pursuit of glory.
But what did CCP do? They toughed it out thats what and allowed the disbanding to stand and forced Band of Brothers to lose everything.
Fair enough.
But it was insult to injury that Darius JOHNSON created the Band of Brothers alt corp to prevent the proper Band of Brothers alliance from re-establishing its name. It was also CHEATING.
So now we have a crowd of players who stole a victory they didn't deserve howling with upset and rage that the referees have allowed the downed opponent their name back. Its pathetic and its small.
I think everybody knows that CCP will change the Alliance disband mechanic because of this incident. The rules will change. They have changed in the past and they will change again in the future.
Quote: What would happend if surdenly the chinese defided gravity by some higher godly intervention. I bet the rest of the world will start wondering wtf is going on..
Good comparison
Quote: Thats why people are ****ed.. And im preatty sure you intelligent enough to realise this.
The goons are annoyed because a stolen victory has slightly been soured by their opponents getting their name back.
Tough.
Play the game.
ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD |
|
Vibius
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:44:00 -
[111]
Who the hell is Jade Constantine anyway? He's a nobody, there's no point in even replying to him.
|
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:44:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Zumbala That is definitly not the same thing. The BoB corp was created not to fake being The BoB alliance. That is the main difference. No one who know the alliance BoB could decently pretend that the corp in Goonswarm called BoB is the same thing. They did not try to stell their identity, really.
Well I saw fake press releases from a fake molle character in the fake band of brothers corp. I've seen fake recruitment posts, fake political posts, hell, even a fake surrender or two. It was an attempt to steal the identity and block the appropriate recreation of the entity by exploiting a flawed naming mechanic in the game.
ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD |
Aurvundill
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:44:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Well playing Eve is voluntary at the end of the day. If the goons don't like that Band of Brothers (kinda) got their name back then they aren't being forced to continue their subscription payments.
Lets get it into perspective.
Within the letter of the game documentation the alliance disband wasn't apparently possible in the first place.
If ccp are going to honour "Hargoth" disbanding the orginal alliance and take no action against Goons reinstituting a Band of Brothers alt corp purely to post spam on CAOD with while impersonating an in-game entity against past eula guidance then it seems absolutely reasonable that a compromise is reached and they let BOB rename their current alliance to a form that respects the gameplay investment of its member base in previous years.
This current threadnaughting on the other hand is immature foot-stamping at best and I think the actual Eve community (as opposed to the SA community) will be getting a bit tired of goons throwing their toys out of prams every time the slightest thing goes against them by now.
Whineswarm strikes again.
Just grow up and play the game.
I smell a tool... err a pet.
|
Challic
Minmatar Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:45:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Challic on 24/03/2009 00:45:58
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Look at me, I think I'm important
Do you really believe the garbage that comes out of your mouth...if so you really are out of touch with reality. Pull yourself back and stop acting like you are the savor of Eve morality and ethical game play. You do not speak for the majority of Eve so please stop acting like you do. Last I checked this game was made up of over 200,000 individuals...not Jade Constantine.
|
Rek Esket
Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:46:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Lunas Feelgood This is not about a name change this is not about what happend to BOB.. This is about the game itself.. Not about factions, enemies or friends its about the game. The little virtuel reality thousends of people play. This little virtuel reality is bound by surden universal rules.. Just like in real life, there is rules of nature, rules we cant change, no matter how much we will.. For example gravity...
Of course you are completely wrong. Rules change when they need to. Its clear to everyone outside the goon coalition that the alliance disband was ridiculous. For 3000 players to lose their alliance identity with one-click from a director level emocide while I can't even fire somebody from my corp without a 24 hour waiting period is the height of insanity.
It was an embarrassment for a game that sells itself on alliance building and space empires to allow a glitch like this to suddenly totally imbalance a huge space war and deliver an entirely hollow victory to a side that hadn't hitherto fired a shot in pursuit of glory.
But what did CCP do? They toughed it out thats what and allowed the disbanding to stand and forced Band of Brothers to lose everything.
Fair enough.
But it was insult to injury that Darius JOHNSON created the Band of Brothers alt corp to prevent the proper Band of Brothers alliance from re-establishing its name. It was also CHEATING.
So now we have a crowd of players who stole a victory they didn't deserve howling with upset and rage that the referees have allowed the downed opponent their name back. Its pathetic and its small.
I think everybody knows that CCP will change the Alliance disband mechanic because of this incident. The rules will change. They have changed in the past and they will change again in the future.
Quote: What would happend if surdenly the chinese defided gravity by some higher godly intervention. I bet the rest of the world will start wondering wtf is going on..
Good comparison
Quote: Thats why people are ****ed.. And im preatty sure you intelligent enough to realise this.
The goons are annoyed because a stolen victory has slightly been soured by their opponents getting their name back.
Tough.
Play the game.
Have you ever RP'd a violent sex scene, like the one we just had in 49-U6U? Or do you only roleplay sex consensually?
|
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:47:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Challic Last I checked this game was made up of over 200,000 individuals...
And goons are 5000, why don't you try to stop spamming up the forums and threadnaughting as if you represented more than 2.5% of the game's subscribers?
ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD |
Itzena
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:47:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Lunas Feelgood This is not about a name change this is not about what happend to BOB.. This is about the game itself.. Not about factions, enemies or friends its about the game. The little virtuel reality thousends of people play. This little virtuel reality is bound by surden universal rules.. Just like in real life, there is rules of nature, rules we cant change, no matter how much we will.. For example gravity...
Of course you are completely wrong. Rules change when they need to. Its clear to everyone outside the goon coalition that the alliance disband was ridiculous. For 3000 players to lose their alliance identity with one-click from a director level emocide while I can't even fire somebody from my corp without a 24 hour waiting period is the height of insanity.
It was an embarrassment for a game that sells itself on alliance building and space empires to allow a glitch like this to suddenly totally imbalance a huge space war and deliver an entirely hollow victory to a side that hadn't hitherto fired a shot in pursuit of glory.
But what did CCP do? They toughed it out thats what and allowed the disbanding to stand and forced Band of Brothers to lose everything.
Fair enough.
But it was insult to injury that Darius JOHNSON created the Band of Brothers alt corp to prevent the proper Band of Brothers alliance from re-establishing its name. It was also CHEATING.
So now we have a crowd of players who stole a victory they didn't deserve howling with upset and rage that the referees have allowed the downed opponent their name back. Its pathetic and its small.
I think everybody knows that CCP will change the Alliance disband mechanic because of this incident. The rules will change. They have changed in the past and they will change again in the future.
Quote: What would happend if surdenly the chinese defided gravity by some higher godly intervention. I bet the rest of the world will start wondering wtf is going on..
Good comparison
Quote: Thats why people are ****ed.. And im preatty sure you intelligent enough to realise this.
The goons are annoyed because a stolen victory has slightly been soured by their opponents getting their name back.
Tough.
Play the game.
If the disbanding of BoB was 'wrong' as you claim, CCP would have reversed it.
|
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:50:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Itzena If the disbanding of BoB was 'wrong' as you claim, CCP would have reversed it.
The disbanding of BOB was a flawed game mechanic. The game mechanic in question will be fixed almost certainly.
The blocking of Band of Brothers re-establishment by setting up an impersonation alt corp was something that looked very much like an exploit.
Looks like that has been reversed (at least to a degree).
ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD |
Dathremar
Caldari The Maverick Navy PuPPet MasTers
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:52:00 -
[119]
On one hand this whole thread and "scandal" is pretty hilarious. People are whining and moaning making a massive deal out of something so trivial that it just makes me roll my eyes. Nobody would give two ****s about this if this was some no name alliance who lived in empire and just wanted their name changed because of some fault (no I can't name any). But because Kenny or BOB was changed then it is a massive conspiracy and it clearly proves that the devs love BOB and have done everything in their power to help BOB.
On the other hand this does appear to be a change of heart for CCP. If this is how CCP is going to play the game then they should allow other alliance the same opportunity. I disagree with Jade on that point that they were cheated out of their name. Goons used the ingame tactics (which I would consider cheating) to their advantage and pretty much stole the name. CCP obviously said that it was not a breach of the EULA by not changing Band of Brothers the corp's name.
In the end it makes no amount of difference to me other than the fact that the name is kind of meh. Sounds like a movie I once saw....
Oh and CCP if you are changing names could you change mine to Inquisitor Dathremar because I love that title.
|
Itzena
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.24 00:52:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Itzena If the disbanding of BoB was 'wrong' as you claim, CCP would have reversed it.
The disbanding of BOB was a flawed game mechanic. The game mechanic in question will be fixed almost certainly.
The blocking of Band of Brothers re-establishment by setting up an impersonation alt corp was something that looked very much like an exploit.
Looks like that has been reversed (at least to a degree).
Please disclose the source of your information regarding the change in game mechanics.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |