EVE Search - The Unlikely Collapse of Civilization in EVE

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Jagaroth	Posted - 2004.11.02 22:21:00 - [1] Edited by: Jagaroth on 02/11/2004 22:25:08 Originally by: Wyckoff When has collective humanity really taken such a dramatic technological turn-around? Even the Dark-ages of Europe only refer to the loss of a strong central government and the relatively fair legal system. Technology (with the notable exception of Cement, pavement and useful applications of Tar...all of which were forgotten and only relearned in the 19th and twentieth centuries) kept moving forward. Umm, no. How can you compare a medieval city in, say 1200AD, with Rome in 200BC and say that there was no loss of technological expertise? The post-Roman Dark Ages (5-6th centuries AD) and the medieval period which followed were not just a loss of central government. They are so-called because they are 'dark' to historians. We don't really know what happened in that time because the written records were destroyed (or were never created). Knowledge of civil fundamentals like agriculture, engineering, medicine, and the arts all faded. This was a regression. There were cultural renaissances at various times: Charlemagne, Alfred and others began to tie society together 500 years after the legions left. If I recall correctly there was another renaissance in the twelfth century and then finally the one which led to the discovery of America, Industrial Revolution, the age of empires etc etc. It took 1000 years to return to the point where European civilisatian had been when the western Roman Empire collapsed. However, I would take exception to the contention that the Romans were only prevented from entering an early industrial revolution by their own conservatism. The Industrial Revolution came about for a number of reasons... It's a bit difficult to cover them neatly here, but the Romans did not have the necessary prerequisites and I would posit that it was the development of these elements by other cultures in the intervening time that allowed Europe to start industrialisation. Turning to EvE... I think it's entirely plausible. The large Roman population of Europe took a signigificant hit from the fall of Rome. If we translate that to post new-Eden worlds and imagine much smaller dependent human colonies being cut off from Earth it is entirely logical to conclude that they would have collapsed to a pre-industrial state very quickly unless there were extremely fortuitous extenuating circumstances. Survivors would have been reduced to an Adam and Eve status - survival priorities would be food, water and shelter; not the preservation of the technology necessary to make micro warp drives and nanoelectric co-processors. Recovering an advanced space-faring society within 8000 years is not bad going considering the odds. ------
Jagaroth	Posted - 2004.11.02 22:21:00 - [2] Edited by: Jagaroth on 02/11/2004 22:25:08 Originally by: Wyckoff When has collective humanity really taken such a dramatic technological turn-around? Even the Dark-ages of Europe only refer to the loss of a strong central government and the relatively fair legal system. Technology (with the notable exception of Cement, pavement and useful applications of Tar...all of which were forgotten and only relearned in the 19th and twentieth centuries) kept moving forward. Umm, no. How can you compare a medieval city in, say 1200AD, with Rome in 200BC and say that there was no loss of technological expertise? The post-Roman Dark Ages (5-6th centuries AD) and the medieval period which followed were not just a loss of central government. They are so-called because they are 'dark' to historians. We don't really know what happened in that time because the written records were destroyed (or were never created). Knowledge of civil fundamentals like agriculture, engineering, medicine, and the arts all faded. This was a regression. There were cultural renaissances at various times: Charlemagne, Alfred and others began to tie society together 500 years after the legions left. If I recall correctly there was another renaissance in the twelfth century and then finally the one which led to the discovery of America, Industrial Revolution, the age of empires etc etc. It took 1000 years to return to the point where European civilisatian had been when the western Roman Empire collapsed. However, I would take exception to the contention that the Romans were only prevented from entering an early industrial revolution by their own conservatism. The Industrial Revolution came about for a number of reasons... It's a bit difficult to cover them neatly here, but the Romans did not have the necessary prerequisites and I would posit that it was the development of these elements by other cultures in the intervening time that allowed Europe to start industrialisation. Turning to EvE... I think it's entirely plausible. The large Roman population of Europe took a signigificant hit from the fall of Rome. If we translate that to post new-Eden worlds and imagine much smaller dependent human colonies being cut off from Earth it is entirely logical to conclude that they would have collapsed to a pre-industrial state very quickly unless there were extremely fortuitous extenuating circumstances. Survivors would have been reduced to an Adam and Eve status - survival priorities would be food, water and shelter; not the preservation of the technology necessary to make micro warp drives and nanoelectric co-processors. Recovering an advanced space-faring society within 8000 years is not bad going considering the odds. ------
Jagaroth No Quarter. C0VEN	Posted - 2004.11.02 22:21:00 - [3] Edited by: Jagaroth on 02/11/2004 22:25:08 Originally by: Wyckoff When has collective humanity really taken such a dramatic technological turn-around? Even the Dark-ages of Europe only refer to the loss of a strong central government and the relatively fair legal system. Technology (with the notable exception of Cement, pavement and useful applications of Tar...all of which were forgotten and only relearned in the 19th and twentieth centuries) kept moving forward. Umm, no. How can you compare a medieval city in, say 1200AD, with Rome in 200BC and say that there was no loss of technological expertise? The post-Roman Dark Ages (5-6th centuries AD) and the medieval period which followed were not just a loss of central government. They are so-called because they are 'dark' to historians. We don't really know what happened in that time because the written records were destroyed (or were never created). Knowledge of civil fundamentals like agriculture, engineering, medicine, and the arts all faded. This was a regression. There were cultural renaissances at various times: Charlemagne, Alfred and others began to tie society together 500 years after the legions left. If I recall correctly there was another renaissance in the twelfth century and then finally the one which led to the discovery of America, Industrial Revolution, the age of empires etc etc. It took 1000 years to return to the point where European civilisatian had been when the western Roman Empire collapsed. However, I would take exception to the contention that the Romans were only prevented from entering an early industrial revolution by their own conservatism. The Industrial Revolution came about for a number of reasons... It's a bit difficult to cover them neatly here, but the Romans did not have the necessary prerequisites and I would posit that it was the development of these elements by other cultures in the intervening time that allowed Europe to start industrialisation. Turning to EvE... I think it's entirely plausible. The large Roman population of Europe took a signigificant hit from the fall of Rome. If we translate that to post new-Eden worlds and imagine much smaller dependent human colonies being cut off from Earth it is entirely logical to conclude that they would have collapsed to a pre-industrial state very quickly unless there were extremely fortuitous extenuating circumstances. Survivors would have been reduced to an Adam and Eve status - survival priorities would be food, water and shelter; not the preservation of the technology necessary to make micro warp drives and nanoelectric co-processors. Recovering an advanced space-faring society within 8000 years is not bad going considering the odds. ------
Jagaroth	Posted - 2004.11.14 16:38:00 - [4] How about Venus? We can't alter gravity (the principal problem with Mars)but we can alter heat, pressure and the chemical composition of an atmosphere. What do you pie-in-the-sky guys think of doing something with Venus? Or is that even less probable? ------
Jagaroth	Posted - 2004.11.14 16:38:00 - [5] How about Venus? We can't alter gravity (the principal problem with Mars)but we can alter heat, pressure and the chemical composition of an atmosphere. What do you pie-in-the-sky guys think of doing something with Venus? Or is that even less probable? ------
Jagaroth No Quarter. C0VEN	Posted - 2004.11.14 16:38:00 - [6] How about Venus? We can't alter gravity (the principal problem with Mars)but we can alter heat, pressure and the chemical composition of an atmosphere. What do you pie-in-the-sky guys think of doing something with Venus? Or is that even less probable? ------
Jagaroth	Posted - 2004.11.16 00:47:00 - [7] Ah no. I checked up the details. It has very weak gravity despite being the same size as Earth. Something to do with it rotating on its axis only once a year... :( And aside from the gravity, apparently all the oxygen is locked in the rocks... and all the hydrogen flew off into space several billion years ago. But apart from that... ------
Jagaroth	Posted - 2004.11.16 00:47:00 - [8] Ah no. I checked up the details. It has very weak gravity despite being the same size as Earth. Something to do with it rotating on its axis only once a year... :( And aside from the gravity, apparently all the oxygen is locked in the rocks... and all the hydrogen flew off into space several billion years ago. But apart from that... ------
Jagaroth No Quarter. C0VEN	Posted - 2004.11.16 00:47:00 - [9] Ah no. I checked up the details. It has very weak gravity despite being the same size as Earth. Something to do with it rotating on its axis only once a year... :( And aside from the gravity, apparently all the oxygen is locked in the rocks... and all the hydrogen flew off into space several billion years ago. But apart from that... ------
Jagaroth	Posted - 2004.11.17 14:13:00 - [10] My bad - I meant magnetic field. According to Wikipedia it's slow rotation is unlikely to be sufficient to drive an internal dynamo (despite it having similar core properties to Earth). So it's unshielded, making it a bit difficult to live on however much you change the atmosphere. It's also inordinately difficult to get to - I didn't really follow the physics, but I picked off this rather cool analogy: "One can imagine driving along a road next to a high, steep cliff with another road at the bottom; the journey from Earth to Venus is rather like swerving off the cliff, freefalling for some time, and then trying to land safely and merge with traffic on the lower road." ...So it would be rather hard to send large quantities of equipment that way without a major revolution in interstellar propulsion. ------
Jagaroth	Posted - 2004.11.17 14:13:00 - [11] My bad - I meant magnetic field. According to Wikipedia it's slow rotation is unlikely to be sufficient to drive an internal dynamo (despite it having similar core properties to Earth). So it's unshielded, making it a bit difficult to live on however much you change the atmosphere. It's also inordinately difficult to get to - I didn't really follow the physics, but I picked off this rather cool analogy: "One can imagine driving along a road next to a high, steep cliff with another road at the bottom; the journey from Earth to Venus is rather like swerving off the cliff, freefalling for some time, and then trying to land safely and merge with traffic on the lower road." ...So it would be rather hard to send large quantities of equipment that way without a major revolution in interstellar propulsion. ------
Jagaroth No Quarter. C0VEN	Posted - 2004.11.17 14:13:00 - [12] My bad - I meant magnetic field. According to Wikipedia it's slow rotation is unlikely to be sufficient to drive an internal dynamo (despite it having similar core properties to Earth). So it's unshielded, making it a bit difficult to live on however much you change the atmosphere. It's also inordinately difficult to get to - I didn't really follow the physics, but I picked off this rather cool analogy: "One can imagine driving along a road next to a high, steep cliff with another road at the bottom; the journey from Earth to Venus is rather like swerving off the cliff, freefalling for some time, and then trying to land safely and merge with traffic on the lower road." ...So it would be rather hard to send large quantities of equipment that way without a major revolution in interstellar propulsion. ------
Jagaroth	Posted - 2004.12.30 21:30:00 - [13] I'd go for that - it would have to be centrally moderated, but I think there are some little touches that the game would benefit from. The one thing I have in mind particularly is the description box for certain planets. Now I can understand that an average icy moon in the back end of beyond should be described as "Moon (Ice)", but when I fly up to New Caldari Prime and see "Planet (Solid)" I get a bit peeved. I can see the cities on the surface!!! So there's a story there and I think the description box for (some of) the planets could be filled in by players. There's a massive number of them, but it would make the game that much more interesting. It would also give CCP an opportunity to add some little clues here and there about "the unlikely collapse of civilisation in EvE". ( back on topic!) ------
Jagaroth	Posted - 2004.12.30 21:30:00 - [14] I'd go for that - it would have to be centrally moderated, but I think there are some little touches that the game would benefit from. The one thing I have in mind particularly is the description box for certain planets. Now I can understand that an average icy moon in the back end of beyond should be described as "Moon (Ice)", but when I fly up to New Caldari Prime and see "Planet (Solid)" I get a bit peeved. I can see the cities on the surface!!! So there's a story there and I think the description box for (some of) the planets could be filled in by players. There's a massive number of them, but it would make the game that much more interesting. It would also give CCP an opportunity to add some little clues here and there about "the unlikely collapse of civilisation in EvE". ( back on topic!) ------
Jagaroth No Quarter. C0VEN	Posted - 2004.12.30 21:30:00 - [15] I'd go for that - it would have to be centrally moderated, but I think there are some little touches that the game would benefit from. The one thing I have in mind particularly is the description box for certain planets. Now I can understand that an average icy moon in the back end of beyond should be described as "Moon (Ice)", but when I fly up to New Caldari Prime and see "Planet (Solid)" I get a bit peeved. I can see the cities on the surface!!! So there's a story there and I think the description box for (some of) the planets could be filled in by players. There's a massive number of them, but it would make the game that much more interesting. It would also give CCP an opportunity to add some little clues here and there about "the unlikely collapse of civilisation in EvE". ( back on topic!) ------

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