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 Wyckoff    |
Posted - 2004.08.19 17:21:00 -
[1] According to the Time-line (with the exception of the Jove), it took a minimum of 8,000 years for history to reemerge after the collapse of the Eve Gate. 8000 years for the Amarr, but longer for others. 8,000 years? Now, I can understand that those colonies not built on habitable planets and being heavily dependent on trade would have withered and died quite quickly. I can even understand that perhaps even a few of the Terran-esque planets that were settled lacked enough of the basic technological advancements to sustain a decent 79th Century lifestyles. But all of them? Did no one keep a basic library? Were they all dependent on Oil from Earth, because I would hope that Solar Power and other renewable energy sources would have caught on by then and that relatively self sufficient communities would naturally arise. The Systems nearest to the Eve Gate were destroyed or badly damaged, fair enough, that explains a dozen or so... but to state that humanity, at the first signs that we were cut off from the rest of Civilized Space, would simply give up on technology, and wander off into the woods certainly sells humanity short. When has collective humanity really taken such a dramatic technological turn-around? Even the Dark-ages of Europe only refer to the loss of a strong central government and the relatively fair legal system. Technology (with the notable exception of Cement, pavement and useful applications of Tar...all of which were forgotten and only relearned in the 19th and twentieth centuries) kept moving forward. I can allow that the disparate pockets of humanity might individually loose a certain complex technology. Jump Drive technology, maybe even interstellar travel...but unless the folks that migrated through EVE-Gate were comprised totally of 80th Century Amish, Hippies or an artists commune, I just donÆt buy it. Certainly some of these migrates were engineers? Teachers? Certainly technology of the 79th Century was sturdy and long lasting, it probably even had the capabilities of repairing itself. Say we grab a village or two of pre-historic Indus valley mud-hut dwellers and switch them with the population of Small Town 20th Century Where-ever. Now we got a few hundred 20th Century Folks in pre-historic Indus Valley and a few hundred æsavagesÆ in Small Town. If left isolated, in a few generations what would happen? Would the 20th Century Folks simply take over where the mud-hutters left off? Would the Mud Hutters exhibit absolutely none of the traits of humanity (curiosity, intuition, etc) and simple go back to picking weeds and hunting stray cats? Doubtful. I would suspect that the 20th Century Folks would, within a few generations, have created a small town that sported quite a few of the comforts of home: Plumbing, waste-disposal, education, electricity, Postal services, Taxes, and be well on their way to getting back to making weapons of mass destruction. On par with 20th Century lifestyle? No, but also incomparable with 18th Century and certainly not -8,000 B.C. How about the Mud Hut Dwellers? Surrounded by technology and wonders they couldnÆt possibly understand, I doubt they would suddenly figure out how to build a rocket ship. But, IÆm pretty sure they could guess the significance of a flush toilet, mirrors, hinges, nails, glass windows, childrenÆs books, and then how to read language. From there? It might not be 20th Century living, but I doubt that once they see the cornfields, the cattle farms, etc, they will go back to grubbing for bugs and sucking on weeds. So, I just canÆt accept that it took humanity 8,000 years to earn a footnote in a history book, especially when that footnote wasnÆt even the return to interstellar travel and when all the trappings of an advanced civilization were all around them. And unlike the Mud Hut Dwellers, or the 20th Century Small Town Folks, some of these people had the knowledge and the tools to start over. |
 Wyckoff |
Posted - 2004.08.19 17:21:00 -
[2] According to the Time-line (with the exception of the Jove), it took a minimum of 8,000 years for history to reemerge after the collapse of the Eve Gate. 8000 years for the Amarr, but longer for others. 8,000 years? Now, I can understand that those colonies not built on habitable planets and being heavily dependent on trade would have withered and died quite quickly. I can even understand that perhaps even a few of the Terran-esque planets that were settled lacked enough of the basic technological advancements to sustain a decent 79th Century lifestyles. But all of them? Did no one keep a basic library? Were they all dependent on Oil from Earth, because I would hope that Solar Power and other renewable energy sources would have caught on by then and that relatively self sufficient communities would naturally arise. The Systems nearest to the Eve Gate were destroyed or badly damaged, fair enough, that explains a dozen or so... but to state that humanity, at the first signs that we were cut off from the rest of Civilized Space, would simply give up on technology, and wander off into the woods certainly sells humanity short. When has collective humanity really taken such a dramatic technological turn-around? Even the Dark-ages of Europe only refer to the loss of a strong central government and the relatively fair legal system. Technology (with the notable exception of Cement, pavement and useful applications of Tar...all of which were forgotten and only relearned in the 19th and twentieth centuries) kept moving forward. I can allow that the disparate pockets of humanity might individually loose a certain complex technology. Jump Drive technology, maybe even interstellar travel...but unless the folks that migrated through EVE-Gate were comprised totally of 80th Century Amish, Hippies or an artists commune, I just donÆt buy it. Certainly some of these migrates were engineers? Teachers? Certainly technology of the 79th Century was sturdy and long lasting, it probably even had the capabilities of repairing itself. Say we grab a village or two of pre-historic Indus valley mud-hut dwellers and switch them with the population of Small Town 20th Century Where-ever. Now we got a few hundred 20th Century Folks in pre-historic Indus Valley and a few hundred æsavagesÆ in Small Town. If left isolated, in a few generations what would happen? Would the 20th Century Folks simply take over where the mud-hutters left off? Would the Mud Hutters exhibit absolutely none of the traits of humanity (curiosity, intuition, etc) and simple go back to picking weeds and hunting stray cats? Doubtful. I would suspect that the 20th Century Folks would, within a few generations, have created a small town that sported quite a few of the comforts of home: Plumbing, waste-disposal, education, electricity, Postal services, Taxes, and be well on their way to getting back to making weapons of mass destruction. On par with 20th Century lifestyle? No, but also incomparable with 18th Century and certainly not -8,000 B.C. How about the Mud Hut Dwellers? Surrounded by technology and wonders they couldnÆt possibly understand, I doubt they would suddenly figure out how to build a rocket ship. But, IÆm pretty sure they could guess the significance of a flush toilet, mirrors, hinges, nails, glass windows, childrenÆs books, and then how to read language. From there? It might not be 20th Century living, but I doubt that once they see the cornfields, the cattle farms, etc, they will go back to grubbing for bugs and sucking on weeds. So, I just canÆt accept that it took humanity 8,000 years to earn a footnote in a history book, especially when that footnote wasnÆt even the return to interstellar travel and when all the trappings of an advanced civilization were all around them. And unlike the Mud Hut Dwellers, or the 20th Century Small Town Folks, some of these people had the knowledge and the tools to start over. |
 Wyckoff Amarr |
Posted - 2004.08.19 17:21:00 -
[3] According to the Time-line (with the exception of the Jove), it took a minimum of 8,000 years for history to reemerge after the collapse of the Eve Gate. 8000 years for the Amarr, but longer for others. 8,000 years? Now, I can understand that those colonies not built on habitable planets and being heavily dependent on trade would have withered and died quite quickly. I can even understand that perhaps even a few of the Terran-esque planets that were settled lacked enough of the basic technological advancements to sustain a decent 79th Century lifestyles. But all of them? Did no one keep a basic library? Were they all dependent on Oil from Earth, because I would hope that Solar Power and other renewable energy sources would have caught on by then and that relatively self sufficient communities would naturally arise. The Systems nearest to the Eve Gate were destroyed or badly damaged, fair enough, that explains a dozen or so... but to state that humanity, at the first signs that we were cut off from the rest of Civilized Space, would simply give up on technology, and wander off into the woods certainly sells humanity short. When has collective humanity really taken such a dramatic technological turn-around? Even the Dark-ages of Europe only refer to the loss of a strong central government and the relatively fair legal system. Technology (with the notable exception of Cement, pavement and useful applications of Tar...all of which were forgotten and only relearned in the 19th and twentieth centuries) kept moving forward. I can allow that the disparate pockets of humanity might individually loose a certain complex technology. Jump Drive technology, maybe even interstellar travel...but unless the folks that migrated through EVE-Gate were comprised totally of 80th Century Amish, Hippies or an artists commune, I just donÆt buy it. Certainly some of these migrates were engineers? Teachers? Certainly technology of the 79th Century was sturdy and long lasting, it probably even had the capabilities of repairing itself. Say we grab a village or two of pre-historic Indus valley mud-hut dwellers and switch them with the population of Small Town 20th Century Where-ever. Now we got a few hundred 20th Century Folks in pre-historic Indus Valley and a few hundred æsavagesÆ in Small Town. If left isolated, in a few generations what would happen? Would the 20th Century Folks simply take over where the mud-hutters left off? Would the Mud Hutters exhibit absolutely none of the traits of humanity (curiosity, intuition, etc) and simple go back to picking weeds and hunting stray cats? Doubtful. I would suspect that the 20th Century Folks would, within a few generations, have created a small town that sported quite a few of the comforts of home: Plumbing, waste-disposal, education, electricity, Postal services, Taxes, and be well on their way to getting back to making weapons of mass destruction. On par with 20th Century lifestyle? No, but also incomparable with 18th Century and certainly not -8,000 B.C. How about the Mud Hut Dwellers? Surrounded by technology and wonders they couldnÆt possibly understand, I doubt they would suddenly figure out how to build a rocket ship. But, IÆm pretty sure they could guess the significance of a flush toilet, mirrors, hinges, nails, glass windows, childrenÆs books, and then how to read language. From there? It might not be 20th Century living, but I doubt that once they see the cornfields, the cattle farms, etc, they will go back to grubbing for bugs and sucking on weeds. So, I just canÆt accept that it took humanity 8,000 years to earn a footnote in a history book, especially when that footnote wasnÆt even the return to interstellar travel and when all the trappings of an advanced civilization were all around them. And unlike the Mud Hut Dwellers, or the 20th Century Small Town Folks, some of these people had the knowledge and the tools to start over. |
 Bhurak |
Posted - 2004.08.19 17:58:00 -
[4] They may not have been dependent upon 'oil', but odds are they were dependent on manufacturing and expertise from the other side. It takes a long time to colonize anything, especially a planet. So there would be little time to set up high tech factories or teaching institutions. So knowledge, research, and manufacturing would suffer that way. In addition, at least the amarr actively hunted down and destroyed tecnology. As well, I doubt they anticipated the collapse of the EVE gate. So they weren't prepared to be cut off from the home systems. That could be another reason. Bhurak Random Miner> Did you how steal my ore, lacked prospects or a bright future the thing you wanted me to take the fight airship to hit you |
 Bhurak |
Posted - 2004.08.19 17:58:00 -
[5] They may not have been dependent upon 'oil', but odds are they were dependent on manufacturing and expertise from the other side. It takes a long time to colonize anything, especially a planet. So there would be little time to set up high tech factories or teaching institutions. So knowledge, research, and manufacturing would suffer that way. In addition, at least the amarr actively hunted down and destroyed tecnology. As well, I doubt they anticipated the collapse of the EVE gate. So they weren't prepared to be cut off from the home systems. That could be another reason. Bhurak Random Miner> Did you how steal my ore, lacked prospects or a bright future the thing you wanted me to take the fight airship to hit you |
 Bhurak Amarr Imperial Shipment |
Posted - 2004.08.19 17:58:00 -
[6] They may not have been dependent upon 'oil', but odds are they were dependent on manufacturing and expertise from the other side. It takes a long time to colonize anything, especially a planet. So there would be little time to set up high tech factories or teaching institutions. So knowledge, research, and manufacturing would suffer that way. In addition, at least the amarr actively hunted down and destroyed tecnology. As well, I doubt they anticipated the collapse of the EVE gate. So they weren't prepared to be cut off from the home systems. That could be another reason. Bhurak Random Miner> Did you how steal my ore, lacked prospects or a bright future the thing you wanted me to take the fight airship to hit you |
Cen Varis |
Posted - 2004.08.19 19:03:00 -
[7] Its not 8000 years... the collapse of the eve gate - 8061 first amarr emperor crowned - 16470 thats 8000 years for a decline, dark age, and rebirth to a complex society - bare minimum of literacy and probably many other things. the "collapse" probably took some time - perhaps 1-2 thousand years? maybe longer? admittedly, tis a damn long time, and actually time for lots of things to happen... perhaps it was decline - rise - decline - rise again? but.. if it was pushed all the way back to real ignorance - please note that "modern man" (as per homo sapiens species) has been around on earth for something the 300,000 years or more... the first remnants of human tools in egypt is some 300,000 years ago! its really amazing hom much huans need literacy and language - if you lose our libraries and technology, even for a few generation, we would have lost a lot. And to be honest, i would say a "primitive society" or non technological one like the Amish etc - one that is technically and socially self sufficient, would have much more chance of surviving a collapse that a modern one. actually though, i doubt that there was a real collapse, more a "backpedal"... if a society is in constant danger of extinction from a hostile environment (alien planets) and has many of the high tech things removed (supy of feul, new parts etc) it would degenerate over a few generation to one able to be supplied from local goods - very few ppl know anything about metalurgy, basic chemistry, farming etc - unless they are specialised for it... and even such simple things as farming, without modern fertilizers etc - farms on an alien planet would probably dissappear rather fast. but please be careful - humanity remained verys static until very recently - only the last 1000 or so years have seen any real technological advance, and for a long long time before that mankind was happy the way it was - surviving and comfortable. Interstellat Cartographic League - Cen Varis |
Cen Varis |
Posted - 2004.08.19 19:03:00 -
[8] Its not 8000 years... the collapse of the eve gate - 8061 first amarr emperor crowned - 16470 thats 8000 years for a decline, dark age, and rebirth to a complex society - bare minimum of literacy and probably many other things. the "collapse" probably took some time - perhaps 1-2 thousand years? maybe longer? admittedly, tis a damn long time, and actually time for lots of things to happen... perhaps it was decline - rise - decline - rise again? but.. if it was pushed all the way back to real ignorance - please note that "modern man" (as per homo sapiens species) has been around on earth for something the 300,000 years or more... the first remnants of human tools in egypt is some 300,000 years ago! its really amazing hom much huans need literacy and language - if you lose our libraries and technology, even for a few generation, we would have lost a lot. And to be honest, i would say a "primitive society" or non technological one like the Amish etc - one that is technically and socially self sufficient, would have much more chance of surviving a collapse that a modern one. actually though, i doubt that there was a real collapse, more a "backpedal"... if a society is in constant danger of extinction from a hostile environment (alien planets) and has many of the high tech things removed (supy of feul, new parts etc) it would degenerate over a few generation to one able to be supplied from local goods - very few ppl know anything about metalurgy, basic chemistry, farming etc - unless they are specialised for it... and even such simple things as farming, without modern fertilizers etc - farms on an alien planet would probably dissappear rather fast. but please be careful - humanity remained verys static until very recently - only the last 1000 or so years have seen any real technological advance, and for a long long time before that mankind was happy the way it was - surviving and comfortable. Interstellat Cartographic League - Cen Varis |
 Cen Varis The Scope |
Posted - 2004.08.19 19:03:00 -
[9] Its not 8000 years... the collapse of the eve gate - 8061 first amarr emperor crowned - 16470 thats 8000 years for a decline, dark age, and rebirth to a complex society - bare minimum of literacy and probably many other things. the "collapse" probably took some time - perhaps 1-2 thousand years? maybe longer? admittedly, tis a damn long time, and actually time for lots of things to happen... perhaps it was decline - rise - decline - rise again? but.. if it was pushed all the way back to real ignorance - please note that "modern man" (as per homo sapiens species) has been around on earth for something the 300,000 years or more... the first remnants of human tools in egypt is some 300,000 years ago! its really amazing hom much huans need literacy and language - if you lose our libraries and technology, even for a few generation, we would have lost a lot. And to be honest, i would say a "primitive society" or non technological one like the Amish etc - one that is technically and socially self sufficient, would have much more chance of surviving a collapse that a modern one. actually though, i doubt that there was a real collapse, more a "backpedal"... if a society is in constant danger of extinction from a hostile environment (alien planets) and has many of the high tech things removed (supy of feul, new parts etc) it would degenerate over a few generation to one able to be supplied from local goods - very few ppl know anything about metalurgy, basic chemistry, farming etc - unless they are specialised for it... and even such simple things as farming, without modern fertilizers etc - farms on an alien planet would probably dissappear rather fast. but please be careful - humanity remained verys static until very recently - only the last 1000 or so years have seen any real technological advance, and for a long long time before that mankind was happy the way it was - surviving and comfortable. Interstellat Cartographic League - Cen Varis |
Wyckoff |
Posted - 2004.08.19 19:12:00 -
[10] Undoubtedly it did take them by surprise when the gate collapsed and the Eve System was destroyed, however, according to the Back Story, the wormhole that was the basis for building the Gates, was never expected to last long from the get-go:
The Gate was completed and opened in 7987, after 200 years of construction. It was destroyed in 8061. That gave folks 74 years of colonization in addition to the 200 years that ships were able to travel through the Wormhole (which opened in 7703). 200 years of exploration and survey. 274 years there were established bases in EVE, equipped to be self-sustaining pending the eventual collapse of the Wormhole.
So, for 74 years people poured into EVE. In those 74 years no one thought to bring a How-To book? Certainly by the 74th year there were established centers of learning, industry and commerce that were relatively self-sufficient. No one pours time and money into something without expecting a return. How soon were colonists that arrived in the America wereÆs sending back trade goods to their native Empires? Those nations that poured cash into the New World but the venture never was profitable stopped sending ships and money. I like a good back-story as much as the next person, but this story has been played out too many times (Foundation Stories/ Dragons of Pern/ Robert JordanÆs books/ even some of the crap IÆve written) ItÆs was cool the first time, but then, like finding Bobby in the shower and realizing that his death and that the whole season was just a dreamàouch, I feel like someone was looking for an easy out. Ohàbut donÆt get me wrong. IÆm not just blindly criticizing the story and stating that, as a whole it wonÆt work, IÆm merely requesting that perhaps it be touched up some. Made a bit more plausible. Perhaps there are parts of the story not yet told. Perhaps there are humans that are advanced and that havenÆt tampered with their humanity, ala Jove. And perhaps they simply moved further away from the Eve Gate and the Known Universe because they had both the ability and an idea that being that Close to the Gate was bad. Who knows. |
 Wyckoff |
Posted - 2004.08.19 19:12:00 -
[11] Undoubtedly it did take them by surprise when the gate collapsed and the Eve System was destroyed, however, according to the Back Story, the wormhole that was the basis for building the Gates, was never expected to last long from the get-go:
The Gate was completed and opened in 7987, after 200 years of construction. It was destroyed in 8061. That gave folks 74 years of colonization in addition to the 200 years that ships were able to travel through the Wormhole (which opened in 7703). 200 years of exploration and survey. 274 years there were established bases in EVE, equipped to be self-sustaining pending the eventual collapse of the Wormhole.
So, for 74 years people poured into EVE. In those 74 years no one thought to bring a How-To book? Certainly by the 74th year there were established centers of learning, industry and commerce that were relatively self-sufficient. No one pours time and money into something without expecting a return. How soon were colonists that arrived in the America wereÆs sending back trade goods to their native Empires? Those nations that poured cash into the New World but the venture never was profitable stopped sending ships and money. I like a good back-story as much as the next person, but this story has been played out too many times (Foundation Stories/ Dragons of Pern/ Robert JordanÆs books/ even some of the crap IÆve written) ItÆs was cool the first time, but then, like finding Bobby in the shower and realizing that his death and that the whole season was just a dreamàouch, I feel like someone was looking for an easy out. Ohàbut donÆt get me wrong. IÆm not just blindly criticizing the story and stating that, as a whole it wonÆt work, IÆm merely requesting that perhaps it be touched up some. Made a bit more plausible. Perhaps there are parts of the story not yet told. Perhaps there are humans that are advanced and that havenÆt tampered with their humanity, ala Jove. And perhaps they simply moved further away from the Eve Gate and the Known Universe because they had both the ability and an idea that being that Close to the Gate was bad. Who knows. |
Wyckoff Amarr |
Posted - 2004.08.19 19:12:00 -
[12] Undoubtedly it did take them by surprise when the gate collapsed and the Eve System was destroyed, however, according to the Back Story, the wormhole that was the basis for building the Gates, was never expected to last long from the get-go:
The Gate was completed and opened in 7987, after 200 years of construction. It was destroyed in 8061. That gave folks 74 years of colonization in addition to the 200 years that ships were able to travel through the Wormhole (which opened in 7703). 200 years of exploration and survey. 274 years there were established bases in EVE, equipped to be self-sustaining pending the eventual collapse of the Wormhole.
So, for 74 years people poured into EVE. In those 74 years no one thought to bring a How-To book? Certainly by the 74th year there were established centers of learning, industry and commerce that were relatively self-sufficient. No one pours time and money into something without expecting a return. How soon were colonists that arrived in the America wereÆs sending back trade goods to their native Empires? Those nations that poured cash into the New World but the venture never was profitable stopped sending ships and money. I like a good back-story as much as the next person, but this story has been played out too many times (Foundation Stories/ Dragons of Pern/ Robert JordanÆs books/ even some of the crap IÆve written) ItÆs was cool the first time, but then, like finding Bobby in the shower and realizing that his death and that the whole season was just a dreamàouch, I feel like someone was looking for an easy out. Ohàbut donÆt get me wrong. IÆm not just blindly criticizing the story and stating that, as a whole it wonÆt work, IÆm merely requesting that perhaps it be touched up some. Made a bit more plausible. Perhaps there are parts of the story not yet told. Perhaps there are humans that are advanced and that havenÆt tampered with their humanity, ala Jove. And perhaps they simply moved further away from the Eve Gate and the Known Universe because they had both the ability and an idea that being that Close to the Gate was bad. Who knows. |
Cen Varis |
Posted - 2004.08.19 19:15:00 -
[13]
Thats even more dangerous - if a society is reliant on "self sufficient technology" - take away that technology and the society will collapse REAL fast. Think for a moment if there was a global blackout - all exectricty dissappeared for say, 1 month, world chaos.
umm, they had all that (except electrictiy and WMD) in the Roman times - a few 100 BC, and in 8000 BC we already had domesticated animals and crops - ie real farming and cities in mesopotamia. The had armies, warfare, politics, religion, and all sorts of other fun stuff back then. If you were dumped back then and could somehow majically understand the languages, ou would probably be suprised how similar things were - barring technology. Dont sell our ancestors short. And dont assume that what we have today is easy to get to. Interstellat Cartographic League - Cen Varis |
 Cen Varis |
Posted - 2004.08.19 19:15:00 -
[14]
Thats even more dangerous - if a society is reliant on "self sufficient technology" - take away that technology and the society will collapse REAL fast. Think for a moment if there was a global blackout - all exectricty dissappeared for say, 1 month, world chaos.
umm, they had all that (except electrictiy and WMD) in the Roman times - a few 100 BC, and in 8000 BC we already had domesticated animals and crops - ie real farming and cities in mesopotamia. The had armies, warfare, politics, religion, and all sorts of other fun stuff back then. If you were dumped back then and could somehow majically understand the languages, ou would probably be suprised how similar things were - barring technology. Dont sell our ancestors short. And dont assume that what we have today is easy to get to. Interstellat Cartographic League - Cen Varis |
Cen Varis The Scope |
Posted - 2004.08.19 19:15:00 -
[15]
Thats even more dangerous - if a society is reliant on "self sufficient technology" - take away that technology and the society will collapse REAL fast. Think for a moment if there was a global blackout - all exectricty dissappeared for say, 1 month, world chaos.
umm, they had all that (except electrictiy and WMD) in the Roman times - a few 100 BC, and in 8000 BC we already had domesticated animals and crops - ie real farming and cities in mesopotamia. The had armies, warfare, politics, religion, and all sorts of other fun stuff back then. If you were dumped back then and could somehow majically understand the languages, ou would probably be suprised how similar things were - barring technology. Dont sell our ancestors short. And dont assume that what we have today is easy to get to. Interstellat Cartographic League - Cen Varis |
 Wyckoff |
Posted - 2004.08.19 20:56:00 -
[16] Ok, if we going to dwell on semantics, lets say these 8,000 B.C. mud-hut dwellers are Neolithic, pre-literate mud-hut dwellers of the Indus valley. But lets not dwell on specifics (after this post) because this is fiction and none of this is real anywayà Ah, but the difference between 20th Century folks, 8,000 B.C. folks or even Republican Romans is not simply our technologies nor our cultures, but our views of the unexplainable...so it is partially our cultures, and superstitions. Electricity fails in the world for a day and there will be some extremely curious scientists, but how many of us will gnash our teeth and rip out our hair?; a Television is turned on in the Roman Forum, and their are going to be some extremely religious Senators bowing before it. Rome was an extremely stagnant culture with a deep seated fear of change and the unknown. If it couldn't be conquered, as much of the unknown lands were, then it would be ignored lest it lead to change. Change was bad, as it lead down paths to the unknown. Industrialization during the early Roman Empire was wholly possible from an intellectual and technological standpoint. Had they the desire or the cultural drive, they could have had machines that were more than simple trinkets and novelty items; they had the man power, the resources and the technology to start the Industrial Revolution 1600 years early. But they didn't. They didn't like change, so they didn't persue it. Exploring and colonizing a new sector of the universe does not sound like a venture undertaken by a culture unwilling to change. It sounds like a second age of exploration (probably third at that point), full of hardy individuals set for the unknown and looking for adventure. Bam! The gate goes down. You are trapped on the other side of the Universe. I guess it depends where you are. Trapped in a methane oceanic research station 1000 meters beneath the surface, or on a lush Terran world with ten-thousand of your fellow colonists and all the tools to build a new world. Selling my ancestors short would be assuming that one little crisis and they walk away from 16,000 years of history (but, being specific, the Chalcolithic period begins around 6,000 B.C. with the birth of some semblance of historical records, so its more like 14,000 years of History), and 86,000 years of human progress(assuming you start from the beginning of the Middle Paleolithic [78,000 b.c.]). Not to mention that there is no single precedence of an advanced technological civilization (any city-dwellers), within our span of history, to ever diminish in advancement unless it is at the hands of someone who surpasses or supplants them. Once a civilization becomes literate, it never losses that power (yes, there are incidents where minor sub-groups of a civilization have regressed) unless it is too another, stronger, literate power. But, its Science Fiction, so who knows. Maybe the culture of the 79th century ainÆt made of the stern stuff that keeps me coming back to Eve, day in, day out to do battle with the Veldspar God of Doom. Maybe that culture was decadent, corrupt, immoral and all those other things said about failed civilizations by those who conquered them. |
 Wyckoff |
Posted - 2004.08.19 20:56:00 -
[17] Ok, if we going to dwell on semantics, lets say these 8,000 B.C. mud-hut dwellers are Neolithic, pre-literate mud-hut dwellers of the Indus valley. But lets not dwell on specifics (after this post) because this is fiction and none of this is real anywayà Ah, but the difference between 20th Century folks, 8,000 B.C. folks or even Republican Romans is not simply our technologies nor our cultures, but our views of the unexplainable...so it is partially our cultures, and superstitions. Electricity fails in the world for a day and there will be some extremely curious scientists, but how many of us will gnash our teeth and rip out our hair?; a Television is turned on in the Roman Forum, and their are going to be some extremely religious Senators bowing before it. Rome was an extremely stagnant culture with a deep seated fear of change and the unknown. If it couldn't be conquered, as much of the unknown lands were, then it would be ignored lest it lead to change. Change was bad, as it lead down paths to the unknown. Industrialization during the early Roman Empire was wholly possible from an intellectual and technological standpoint. Had they the desire or the cultural drive, they could have had machines that were more than simple trinkets and novelty items; they had the man power, the resources and the technology to start the Industrial Revolution 1600 years early. But they didn't. They didn't like change, so they didn't persue it. Exploring and colonizing a new sector of the universe does not sound like a venture undertaken by a culture unwilling to change. It sounds like a second age of exploration (probably third at that point), full of hardy individuals set for the unknown and looking for adventure. Bam! The gate goes down. You are trapped on the other side of the Universe. I guess it depends where you are. Trapped in a methane oceanic research station 1000 meters beneath the surface, or on a lush Terran world with ten-thousand of your fellow colonists and all the tools to build a new world. Selling my ancestors short would be assuming that one little crisis and they walk away from 16,000 years of history (but, being specific, the Chalcolithic period begins around 6,000 B.C. with the birth of some semblance of historical records, so its more like 14,000 years of History), and 86,000 years of human progress(assuming you start from the beginning of the Middle Paleolithic [78,000 b.c.]). Not to mention that there is no single precedence of an advanced technological civilization (any city-dwellers), within our span of history, to ever diminish in advancement unless it is at the hands of someone who surpasses or supplants them. Once a civilization becomes literate, it never losses that power (yes, there are incidents where minor sub-groups of a civilization have regressed) unless it is too another, stronger, literate power. But, its Science Fiction, so who knows. Maybe the culture of the 79th century ainÆt made of the stern stuff that keeps me coming back to Eve, day in, day out to do battle with the Veldspar God of Doom. Maybe that culture was decadent, corrupt, immoral and all those other things said about failed civilizations by those who conquered them. |
Wyckoff Amarr |
Posted - 2004.08.19 20:56:00 -
[18] Ok, if we going to dwell on semantics, lets say these 8,000 B.C. mud-hut dwellers are Neolithic, pre-literate mud-hut dwellers of the Indus valley. But lets not dwell on specifics (after this post) because this is fiction and none of this is real anywayà Ah, but the difference between 20th Century folks, 8,000 B.C. folks or even Republican Romans is not simply our technologies nor our cultures, but our views of the unexplainable...so it is partially our cultures, and superstitions. Electricity fails in the world for a day and there will be some extremely curious scientists, but how many of us will gnash our teeth and rip out our hair?; a Television is turned on in the Roman Forum, and their are going to be some extremely religious Senators bowing before it. Rome was an extremely stagnant culture with a deep seated fear of change and the unknown. If it couldn't be conquered, as much of the unknown lands were, then it would be ignored lest it lead to change. Change was bad, as it lead down paths to the unknown. Industrialization during the early Roman Empire was wholly possible from an intellectual and technological standpoint. Had they the desire or the cultural drive, they could have had machines that were more than simple trinkets and novelty items; they had the man power, the resources and the technology to start the Industrial Revolution 1600 years early. But they didn't. They didn't like change, so they didn't persue it. Exploring and colonizing a new sector of the universe does not sound like a venture undertaken by a culture unwilling to change. It sounds like a second age of exploration (probably third at that point), full of hardy individuals set for the unknown and looking for adventure. Bam! The gate goes down. You are trapped on the other side of the Universe. I guess it depends where you are. Trapped in a methane oceanic research station 1000 meters beneath the surface, or on a lush Terran world with ten-thousand of your fellow colonists and all the tools to build a new world. Selling my ancestors short would be assuming that one little crisis and they walk away from 16,000 years of history (but, being specific, the Chalcolithic period begins around 6,000 B.C. with the birth of some semblance of historical records, so its more like 14,000 years of History), and 86,000 years of human progress(assuming you start from the beginning of the Middle Paleolithic [78,000 b.c.]). Not to mention that there is no single precedence of an advanced technological civilization (any city-dwellers), within our span of history, to ever diminish in advancement unless it is at the hands of someone who surpasses or supplants them. Once a civilization becomes literate, it never losses that power (yes, there are incidents where minor sub-groups of a civilization have regressed) unless it is too another, stronger, literate power. But, its Science Fiction, so who knows. Maybe the culture of the 79th century ainÆt made of the stern stuff that keeps me coming back to Eve, day in, day out to do battle with the Veldspar God of Doom. Maybe that culture was decadent, corrupt, immoral and all those other things said about failed civilizations by those who conquered them. |
Gaelbhan Wulf |
Posted - 2004.08.19 21:16:00 -
[19] I find my thoughts turning to Lord of the Flies when I think of the backstory, but obviously only as it relates to humans just generally degrading to the point of savageness even in the presence of technology. In order to colonize a planet, you need machinery to get you to and from - obvious. That machinery needs an entire planetary infrastructure to build and upkeep the machines -- look at our own space program. It takes the resources of an entire planet to get a shuttle into space -- that gas, those parts, all that wiring, those come from yet deeper bits of infrastructure that must be built and maintained by yet others. In short, they might have expected the Gate to shut down, but I don't think there is any way for a society to get themselves up to speed in that short of time. 200+ years is hardly enough time to migrate enough material and machinery and skilled labor to be able to sustain themselves beyond a reasonable level --> then we have Lord of the Flies. Humans are human after all, and wars began over the available resources, the ideology of the few vs. the many, etc etc, old story played out time and again. Even in the 200 some odd years of the Gate being open, just how many actually came over? A billion? That's really not a lot of people. Separate them into their distinct regions, and you might have ten thousand in one area. Ten thousand people to take up the replacement of all of their needs? Needs that require a whole planet of skilled labor? I'd say the backstory makes some sense overall. Hardly any need to make it completely self-sufficient, I mean after all, all we have is now anyway. Plenty of current stuff to keep us busy.  ______________________ . . . a devouring fever runs in flame through every vein within me . . ." |
Gaelbhan Wulf |
Posted - 2004.08.19 21:16:00 -
[20] I find my thoughts turning to Lord of the Flies when I think of the backstory, but obviously only as it relates to humans just generally degrading to the point of savageness even in the presence of technology. In order to colonize a planet, you need machinery to get you to and from - obvious. That machinery needs an entire planetary infrastructure to build and upkeep the machines -- look at our own space program. It takes the resources of an entire planet to get a shuttle into space -- that gas, those parts, all that wiring, those come from yet deeper bits of infrastructure that must be built and maintained by yet others. In short, they might have expected the Gate to shut down, but I don't think there is any way for a society to get themselves up to speed in that short of time. 200+ years is hardly enough time to migrate enough material and machinery and skilled labor to be able to sustain themselves beyond a reasonable level --> then we have Lord of the Flies. Humans are human after all, and wars began over the available resources, the ideology of the few vs. the many, etc etc, old story played out time and again. Even in the 200 some odd years of the Gate being open, just how many actually came over? A billion? That's really not a lot of people. Separate them into their distinct regions, and you might have ten thousand in one area. Ten thousand people to take up the replacement of all of their needs? Needs that require a whole planet of skilled labor? I'd say the backstory makes some sense overall. Hardly any need to make it completely self-sufficient, I mean after all, all we have is now anyway. Plenty of current stuff to keep us busy. ______________________ . . . a devouring fever runs in flame through every vein within me . . ." |
 Gaelbhan Wulf Minmatar Doomheim |
Posted - 2004.08.19 21:16:00 -
[21] I find my thoughts turning to Lord of the Flies when I think of the backstory, but obviously only as it relates to humans just generally degrading to the point of savageness even in the presence of technology. In order to colonize a planet, you need machinery to get you to and from - obvious. That machinery needs an entire planetary infrastructure to build and upkeep the machines -- look at our own space program. It takes the resources of an entire planet to get a shuttle into space -- that gas, those parts, all that wiring, those come from yet deeper bits of infrastructure that must be built and maintained by yet others. In short, they might have expected the Gate to shut down, but I don't think there is any way for a society to get themselves up to speed in that short of time. 200+ years is hardly enough time to migrate enough material and machinery and skilled labor to be able to sustain themselves beyond a reasonable level --> then we have Lord of the Flies. Humans are human after all, and wars began over the available resources, the ideology of the few vs. the many, etc etc, old story played out time and again. Even in the 200 some odd years of the Gate being open, just how many actually came over? A billion? That's really not a lot of people. Separate them into their distinct regions, and you might have ten thousand in one area. Ten thousand people to take up the replacement of all of their needs? Needs that require a whole planet of skilled labor? I'd say the backstory makes some sense overall. Hardly any need to make it completely self-sufficient, I mean after all, all we have is now anyway. Plenty of current stuff to keep us busy. ______________________ . . . a devouring fever runs in flame through every vein within me . . ." |
 Kakita Jalaan |
Posted - 2004.08.19 23:36:00 -
[22] Edited by: Kakita Jalaan on 19/08/2004 23:41:03 Difficult to say what would happen... try going camping with a couple friends, say ten or fifteen (I do summer camps for kids every year, and in the beginning it's just us putting up tents and stuff). Even if you know you're going camping you rely heavily on the infrastructure that's all around you. Why carry along enough food for two weeks, when you can easily go shopping every other day (and that's still a haul to make an indy captain proud)? Translates easily into other needed resources. If the gate closing was a complete surprise, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the colonists were still largely relying on Earth to supply them because it was easier. Why produce stuff yourself, when it is much simpler to have it shipped from completely stocked places on the other side? And 200 years or 300 are nothing in terms of terraforming, by the way. @Bhurak: Where does it state the Amarr actively destroyed old tech? I know it is in my expanded Amarr timeline, but I thought that it wasn't explicitly stated elsewhere. edit: One more thing, about passing knowledge on and stuff... Say they didn't have books because they vanished because of electronic means, PDAs and similar stuff. Among the colonists there probably were boatloads of highly trained people, doctors, biologists, scientists, engineers. But if in the second or third generation after the gate closing your primary concern still is raw survival, you don't have much use for tales of quantum physics or neurosurgery when you're sitting around the camp fire. Then, after maybe 200 or 300 years, such accounts of (unfortunately currently not applicable) old knowledge fade into stories and, later, myth. |
Kakita Jalaan |
Posted - 2004.08.19 23:36:00 -
[23] Edited by: Kakita Jalaan on 19/08/2004 23:41:03 Difficult to say what would happen... try going camping with a couple friends, say ten or fifteen (I do summer camps for kids every year, and in the beginning it's just us putting up tents and stuff). Even if you know you're going camping you rely heavily on the infrastructure that's all around you. Why carry along enough food for two weeks, when you can easily go shopping every other day (and that's still a haul to make an indy captain proud)? Translates easily into other needed resources. If the gate closing was a complete surprise, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the colonists were still largely relying on Earth to supply them because it was easier. Why produce stuff yourself, when it is much simpler to have it shipped from completely stocked places on the other side? And 200 years or 300 are nothing in terms of terraforming, by the way. @Bhurak: Where does it state the Amarr actively destroyed old tech? I know it is in my expanded Amarr timeline, but I thought that it wasn't explicitly stated elsewhere. edit: One more thing, about passing knowledge on and stuff... Say they didn't have books because they vanished because of electronic means, PDAs and similar stuff. Among the colonists there probably were boatloads of highly trained people, doctors, biologists, scientists, engineers. But if in the second or third generation after the gate closing your primary concern still is raw survival, you don't have much use for tales of quantum physics or neurosurgery when you're sitting around the camp fire. Then, after maybe 200 or 300 years, such accounts of (unfortunately currently not applicable) old knowledge fade into stories and, later, myth. |
 Kakita Jalaan Viriette Commerce and Holding |
Posted - 2004.08.19 23:36:00 -
[24] Edited by: Kakita Jalaan on 19/08/2004 23:41:03 Difficult to say what would happen... try going camping with a couple friends, say ten or fifteen (I do summer camps for kids every year, and in the beginning it's just us putting up tents and stuff). Even if you know you're going camping you rely heavily on the infrastructure that's all around you. Why carry along enough food for two weeks, when you can easily go shopping every other day (and that's still a haul to make an indy captain proud)? Translates easily into other needed resources. If the gate closing was a complete surprise, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the colonists were still largely relying on Earth to supply them because it was easier. Why produce stuff yourself, when it is much simpler to have it shipped from completely stocked places on the other side? And 200 years or 300 are nothing in terms of terraforming, by the way. @Bhurak: Where does it state the Amarr actively destroyed old tech? I know it is in my expanded Amarr timeline, but I thought that it wasn't explicitly stated elsewhere. edit: One more thing, about passing knowledge on and stuff... Say they didn't have books because they vanished because of electronic means, PDAs and similar stuff. Among the colonists there probably were boatloads of highly trained people, doctors, biologists, scientists, engineers. But if in the second or third generation after the gate closing your primary concern still is raw survival, you don't have much use for tales of quantum physics or neurosurgery when you're sitting around the camp fire. Then, after maybe 200 or 300 years, such accounts of (unfortunately currently not applicable) old knowledge fade into stories and, later, myth. ______________ Join the Family |
 Cen Varis |
Posted - 2004.08.20 08:05:00 -
[25] Kakita - thats sorta what i was thinking too. say a billion or so ppl came through the game and colonised... the vast majority of those colonists would still be in space stations - miners etc - and some terraformers, and perhaps - perhaps some on a "farm world" or two. since the number are so few - nearly everything would be automated to the best possible amount. Now, once your supply of spare parts is gone, and those who were technically in the know dissappeared we would be in real trouble. But still - i really agree that more history would be AWESOME. More maps, details about when planets were colonised etc. and ps - the Amarr actually were the first back in the race... they were well in advance of every single other race (except jove) and had already build jump capable ships and repaired jump gates and got out to Pator before the minnie even worked out how to rebuild the jumpgates fromt he working examples they had. I would say that the Amarr started with the best planet, and so didn't slide back do far, and had the most unity/drive of the other races... From other stories posted (cant remember where, but in this forum) the upper class amarr and religious guys used technology and science to awe the commoners... sounds to me that the old "science as magic" was the way it worked - so perhaps there were working electronics etc hidden by the Amarr Holders, and why they were able to jump back to the stars thousands of years before anyone else... Interstellat Cartographic League - Cen Varis |
 Cen Varis |
Posted - 2004.08.20 08:05:00 -
[26] Kakita - thats sorta what i was thinking too. say a billion or so ppl came through the game and colonised... the vast majority of those colonists would still be in space stations - miners etc - and some terraformers, and perhaps - perhaps some on a "farm world" or two. since the number are so few - nearly everything would be automated to the best possible amount. Now, once your supply of spare parts is gone, and those who were technically in the know dissappeared we would be in real trouble. But still - i really agree that more history would be AWESOME. More maps, details about when planets were colonised etc. and ps - the Amarr actually were the first back in the race... they were well in advance of every single other race (except jove) and had already build jump capable ships and repaired jump gates and got out to Pator before the minnie even worked out how to rebuild the jumpgates fromt he working examples they had. I would say that the Amarr started with the best planet, and so didn't slide back do far, and had the most unity/drive of the other races... From other stories posted (cant remember where, but in this forum) the upper class amarr and religious guys used technology and science to awe the commoners... sounds to me that the old "science as magic" was the way it worked - so perhaps there were working electronics etc hidden by the Amarr Holders, and why they were able to jump back to the stars thousands of years before anyone else... Interstellat Cartographic League - Cen Varis |
Cen Varis The Scope |
Posted - 2004.08.20 08:05:00 -
[27] Kakita - thats sorta what i was thinking too. say a billion or so ppl came through the game and colonised... the vast majority of those colonists would still be in space stations - miners etc - and some terraformers, and perhaps - perhaps some on a "farm world" or two. since the number are so few - nearly everything would be automated to the best possible amount. Now, once your supply of spare parts is gone, and those who were technically in the know dissappeared we would be in real trouble. But still - i really agree that more history would be AWESOME. More maps, details about when planets were colonised etc. and ps - the Amarr actually were the first back in the race... they were well in advance of every single other race (except jove) and had already build jump capable ships and repaired jump gates and got out to Pator before the minnie even worked out how to rebuild the jumpgates fromt he working examples they had. I would say that the Amarr started with the best planet, and so didn't slide back do far, and had the most unity/drive of the other races... From other stories posted (cant remember where, but in this forum) the upper class amarr and religious guys used technology and science to awe the commoners... sounds to me that the old "science as magic" was the way it worked - so perhaps there were working electronics etc hidden by the Amarr Holders, and why they were able to jump back to the stars thousands of years before anyone else... Interstellat Cartographic League - Cen Varis |
 Cutter John |
Posted - 2004.08.20 09:52:00 -
[28] Edited by: Cutter John on 20/08/2004 10:02:14 high technology requires an incredible amount of industrial infrastructure to maintain, even now. plus it favors centralized manufacturing.. i.e. their arent microchip factories in every city.. there are a few very large operations, that distribute these over a much broader area. why bother making a microchip company on your planet when you get weekly shipments from new eden? i find it entirely believable that most settlements werent able to maintain their level of tech. right now, how many people do you think could actually even begin to have a tiny idea of how to build a pentium 4? it took a LOT of effort by many many smart people to get chip technology to where it is today. and a LOT of machines. i admit, eventually they might possibly figure out how to make replacements if they had enough time and people.. but what if there were 50 vital things they recieved. suppose they need this little widget to make there fusion reactors work so they can get power, and it needs to be replaced yearly, but its manufactured in new eden and hasnt come in yet, then new eden blows.. now they have a year to try to reverse engineer 5000 years of progress and a very broad manufacturing infrastructure necessary to manufacture this puppy, or figure out an alternate power source. and if they fail... lights out. all of there tech is gone.. worthless piles of scrap metal. hopefully they had the foresight to print out hardcopies of important data.. like how to breed cattle and raise crops by hand. unless they didnt have paper. how much paper did you see in star trek? would they even know what paper was? thats why so many of those colonies failed. centralized manufacturing necessary for technology.. i'd bet most high tech items and spare parts were made in our galaxy or new eden and shipped. its easy to assume that.. look at how easy it is to get around in eve.. even figuring that this is a game and travel times are shortened greatly for gameplay purposes. although i do agree that 8000 years to recover to the point that a written history is maintained is far too long. i would say 1-2000 years would be better. its easier to reinvent.. because you know it can be done. possibly not though.. who knows how far it would decline before it reached a point the tech could be maintained. btw.. i think that one colony was self sufficient enough to survive with most of their tech.. the joves. just my opinion though  My Idea Thread Give Drones Love! |
Cutter John |
Posted - 2004.08.20 09:52:00 -
[29] Edited by: Cutter John on 20/08/2004 10:02:14 high technology requires an incredible amount of industrial infrastructure to maintain, even now. plus it favors centralized manufacturing.. i.e. their arent microchip factories in every city.. there are a few very large operations, that distribute these over a much broader area. why bother making a microchip company on your planet when you get weekly shipments from new eden? i find it entirely believable that most settlements werent able to maintain their level of tech. right now, how many people do you think could actually even begin to have a tiny idea of how to build a pentium 4? it took a LOT of effort by many many smart people to get chip technology to where it is today. and a LOT of machines. i admit, eventually they might possibly figure out how to make replacements if they had enough time and people.. but what if there were 50 vital things they recieved. suppose they need this little widget to make there fusion reactors work so they can get power, and it needs to be replaced yearly, but its manufactured in new eden and hasnt come in yet, then new eden blows.. now they have a year to try to reverse engineer 5000 years of progress and a very broad manufacturing infrastructure necessary to manufacture this puppy, or figure out an alternate power source. and if they fail... lights out. all of there tech is gone.. worthless piles of scrap metal. hopefully they had the foresight to print out hardcopies of important data.. like how to breed cattle and raise crops by hand. unless they didnt have paper. how much paper did you see in star trek? would they even know what paper was? thats why so many of those colonies failed. centralized manufacturing necessary for technology.. i'd bet most high tech items and spare parts were made in our galaxy or new eden and shipped. its easy to assume that.. look at how easy it is to get around in eve.. even figuring that this is a game and travel times are shortened greatly for gameplay purposes. although i do agree that 8000 years to recover to the point that a written history is maintained is far too long. i would say 1-2000 years would be better. its easier to reinvent.. because you know it can be done. possibly not though.. who knows how far it would decline before it reached a point the tech could be maintained. btw.. i think that one colony was self sufficient enough to survive with most of their tech.. the joves. just my opinion though My Idea Thread Give Drones Love! |
 Cutter John TARDZ Gods of Night and Day |
Posted - 2004.08.20 09:52:00 -
[30] Edited by: Cutter John on 20/08/2004 10:02:14 high technology requires an incredible amount of industrial infrastructure to maintain, even now. plus it favors centralized manufacturing.. i.e. their arent microchip factories in every city.. there are a few very large operations, that distribute these over a much broader area. why bother making a microchip company on your planet when you get weekly shipments from new eden? i find it entirely believable that most settlements werent able to maintain their level of tech. right now, how many people do you think could actually even begin to have a tiny idea of how to build a pentium 4? it took a LOT of effort by many many smart people to get chip technology to where it is today. and a LOT of machines. i admit, eventually they might possibly figure out how to make replacements if they had enough time and people.. but what if there were 50 vital things they recieved. suppose they need this little widget to make there fusion reactors work so they can get power, and it needs to be replaced yearly, but its manufactured in new eden and hasnt come in yet, then new eden blows.. now they have a year to try to reverse engineer 5000 years of progress and a very broad manufacturing infrastructure necessary to manufacture this puppy, or figure out an alternate power source. and if they fail... lights out. all of there tech is gone.. worthless piles of scrap metal. hopefully they had the foresight to print out hardcopies of important data.. like how to breed cattle and raise crops by hand. unless they didnt have paper. how much paper did you see in star trek? would they even know what paper was? thats why so many of those colonies failed. centralized manufacturing necessary for technology.. i'd bet most high tech items and spare parts were made in our galaxy or new eden and shipped. its easy to assume that.. look at how easy it is to get around in eve.. even figuring that this is a game and travel times are shortened greatly for gameplay purposes. although i do agree that 8000 years to recover to the point that a written history is maintained is far too long. i would say 1-2000 years would be better. its easier to reinvent.. because you know it can be done. possibly not though.. who knows how far it would decline before it reached a point the tech could be maintained. btw.. i think that one colony was self sufficient enough to survive with most of their tech.. the joves. just my opinion though |
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