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ECM will get balanced (no really it will)

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Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:23:00 - [31] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 25/03/2009 09:23:38 Originally by: maralt You compare the Lach/Arazu/Rapier/Huginns ewar systems to ecm????.. I had no idea target painters, damps, webs and points could fail within their optimal/ranges like ecm does..... a) the effect of ECM is vastly more powerful than any of those (as you should well know) b) check out the optimal ranges of those other forms of ewar. Note that Lach/Arazu get no damper range bonuses whatsoever. Neither does Rapier/Huginn to TP optimal, or Curse/Pilgrim to TD optimal. And realize that beyond those meager (50-60km) optimals, those forms of ewar become chance-based too. But yeah, give the other races 200km+ damps, TDs and webs/painters. Please. Then we can talk some more.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:29:00 - [32] Originally by: General Coochie Also like it. Falcon pilots might have to fit mid slot tank now and step down to just above the other recons usefulness instead of being miles above. But without secondary EW, 3rd weapon or drone bay...
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:32:00 - [33] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: General Coochie Also like it. Falcon pilots might have to fit mid slot tank now and step down to just above the other recons usefulness instead of being miles above. But without secondary EW, 3rd weapon or drone bay... I'd argue that ECM is so strong as an effect that it doesn't really need a secondary ewar effect. ... but I wouldn't object to Falcons getting some more dps and/or tank in some form. Drone bay might be reasonable, too.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:35:00 - [34] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 25/03/2009 09:23:38 Originally by: maralt You compare the Lach/Arazu/Rapier/Huginns ewar systems to ecm????.. I had no idea target painters, damps, webs and points could fail within their optimal/ranges like ecm does..... a) the effect of ECM is vastly more powerful than any of those (as you should well know) b) check out the optimal ranges of those other forms of ewar. Note that Lach/Arazu get no damper range bonuses whatsoever. Neither does Rapier/Huginn to TP optimal, or Curse/Pilgrim to TD optimal. And realize that beyond those meager (50-60km) optimals, those forms of ewar become chance-based too. But yeah, give the other races 200km+ damps, TDs and webs/painters. Please. Then we can talk some more. And ecm is chance based WITHIN its optimal. A ship damped or webbed by the relative recons can be made as useless against them as a ship that is jammed the only differance is the jams can fail the others cannot. Be honest you hate getting jammed do not wanna use a slot for eccm, and you could not care less about the other systems ect you are just trying to connect the dots in a attempt to justify the nerf.
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:40:00 - [35] Edited by: General Coochie on 25/03/2009 09:41:56 Couple of months ago or even a year ago this was the case: Gallente recons nerf: Check (damps, scripts + lower reduction to range on damps). PPl proposed a buff to sensor boosters, or increase their effectiveness to damps, and proposed that damp boats should be compensated instead of this nerf. Didnt happen why should the caldari recons "get away with it" ? Minmatar recons nerf: Check (web strength) Amarr recons nerf: Check (nos nerf) Caldari recons buff: Check (range and strength got buffed, along with ECM low slot modules) Everyone on the forums has whined and whined until all the other recons got nerfed. I see no reason why you should leave the caldari. Either buff the rest (hasn't happended) or nerf caldari (will happen which is awesome). What do you whine about really? Your OMG I win button? Or OMG I escape button? Added with a cloak and a whooping 250km range. You can still do it almost as effectively in a rook. The difference is you just can't act all lame, sitting your cloaked falcon alt in a belt or at a gate for you to jam your way through almost anything. Now you have to do this in a non cloaking ship instead, its almost the only difference, so now ppl will know before hand that you have that ecm alt sitting there, I really feel for you! Or you can have your falcon alt still only that he is limited to about 100km, like that is terrible.... I wish I had 100km effective range on my arazu dampning ships to uselessness. Caldari has always whined your dps etc sucks. Well here you go have your missile rof bonus and a 25m3 drone bay and you will see where the lachesis has been all the time. By your argumentation the rook should be OMG awesome now! You even got what you asked for. Ungrateful hierarchic china wanna bees! Got Cooch?, solo PvP movie
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:47:00 - [36] Originally by: General Coochie Edited by: General Coochie on 25/03/2009 09:41:56 Couple of months ago or even a year ago this was the case: Gallente recons nerf: Check (damps, scripts + lower reduction to range on damps). PPl proposed a buff to sensor boosters, or increase their effectiveness to damps, and proposed that damp boats should be compensated instead of this nerf. Didnt happen why should the caldari recons "get away with it" ? Minmatar recons nerf: Check (web strength) Amarr recons nerf: Check (nos nerf) Caldari recons buff: Check (range and strength got buffed, along with ECM low slot modules) Everyone on the forums has whined and whined until all the other recons got nerfed. I see no reason why you should leave the caldari. Either buff the rest (hasn't happended) or nerf caldari (will happen which is awesome). What do you whine about really? Your OMG I win button? Or OMG I escape button? Added with a cloak and a whooping 250km range. You can still do it almost as effectively in a rook. The difference is you just can't act all lame, sitting your cloaked falcon alt in a belt or at a gate for you to jam your way through almost anything. Now you have to do this in a non cloaking ship instead, its almost the only difference, so now ppl will know before hand that you have that ecm alt sitting there, I really feel for you! Or you can have your falcon alt still only that he is limited to about 100km, like that is terrible.... I wish I had 100km effective range on my arazu dampning ships to uselessness. Caldari has always whined your dps etc sucks. Well here you go have your missile rof bonus and a 25m3 drone bay and you will see where the lachesis has been all the time. By your argumentation the rook should be OMG awesome now! You even got what you asked for. Ungrateful hierarchic china wanna bees! I seriously doubt ppl will go without a cloak on the rook, they may get a locking delay from a standard T2 cloak but depending on the availability of fit their are rigs that can reduce that delay quite significantly and the warp from a pounce point ect also removes the initial delay if not the speed penalty... /Note to self buy lots of rooks off the market and wait to re-seed after the nerf... profit
Jalif Minmatar Black Sinisters	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:52:00 - [37] :D \|Black Sinisters\|
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:55:00 - [38] Originally by: maralt I seriously doubt ppl will go without a cloak on the rook, they may get a locking delay from a standard T2 cloak but depending on the availability of fit their are rigs that can reduce that delay quite significantly and the warp from a pounce point ect also removes the initial delay if not the speed penalty... /Note to self buy lots of rooks off the market and wait to re-seed after the nerf... profit Yes exactly. It will only reduce effectiveness by a bit. I don't see what there is to whine about. It will still be most used recons. Got Cooch?, solo PvP movie
Yaggher Xanuben Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.03.25 10:03:00 - [39] The rook. 5 launchers in highs MWD and jammers in the mids, maybe some shield buffer. DC and BCU's in lows 5 warrior II's if it fits Sit at 100km and have fun. If fast tacklers come after you, send in drones. If things get bad, jam them and warp out. Looks like a "must have" support ship.
Hurtado Soneka Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.03.25 10:06:00 - [40] Thank god they boosted the ships instead of just flat out nerfing caldari like they usually do, Scorpion and Rook look set to be chased after again ^^
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.03.25 10:08:00 - [41] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 25/03/2009 10:12:32 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 25/03/2009 10:09:58 Originally by: maralt Be honest you hate getting jammed do not wanna use a slot for eccm, and you could not care less about the other systems ect you are just trying to connect the dots in a attempt to justify the nerf. I've actually flown Gallente and Amarr recons quite a bit, and am quite aware of how they perform in the ewar department (or fail to, in the Gallente case). Oh, and have flown ECM too. How about you? Any actual experience with anything except ECM? Do you have any real idea of the state of the other forms of ewar currently? (no, EFT doesn't count) The stacking penalty on damps was a massive nerf to them, it effectively set a hard limit on how much you can damp a ship (anything beyond 4 damps on a target is useless), and even those 4 damps don't always do enough (does close to zip vs a close-range ship, like most battleships are in lowsec combats). ECM has no such limitations. That's a critical point.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.03.25 10:09:00 - [42] Originally by: Hurtado Soneka Thank god they boosted the ships instead of just flat out nerfing caldari like they usually do, Scorpion and Rook look set to be chased after again ^^ Yeah. I look forward to actually seeing Rooks and Scorps in combat again, instead of Falcon Online.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2009.03.25 11:00:00 - [43] Originally by: Alex Harumichi I've actually flown Gallente and Amarr recons quite a bit, and am quite aware of how they perform in the ewar department (or fail to, in the Gallente case). Oh, and have flown ECM too. How about you? Any actual experience with anything except ECM? Do you have any real idea of the state of the other forms of ewar currently? (no, EFT doesn't count) I have flown the arazu and the falcon, the falcon as general gang support and the arazu along with another pilot in a rapier and a good damage dealer in a roaming gank squad as its a very effective combo. Originally by: Alex Harumichi The stacking penalty on damps was a massive nerf to them, it effectively set a hard limit on how much you can damp a ship (anything beyond 4 damps on a target is useless), and even those 4 damps don't always do enough (does close to zip vs a close-range ship, like most battleships are in lowsec combats). ECM has no such limitations. That's a critical point. The damp nerf hit hard but that was mainly because of non bonused ships using damps, what ccp failed to do was adjust the bonuses on the arazu and lachesis to compensate. But even with that nerf a combo of the arazu, rapier and good damage dealer that can hit at a reasonable distance is still a nice 3 ship squad to go roaming and ganking with and easy to plan your tactics around against dangerous targets as their effects are gaurenteed. The limitation of ecm in that setup instead of damps is that no matter the tactics a jam can fail and get one of your squad melted.
Adaera	Posted - 2009.03.25 11:14:00 - [44] Well, I for one have already put my Falcon up for auction. Hopefully it'll go before prices do ___________________ I for one welcome our new bee overlords
Colonel Xaven Decadence. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.25 11:26:00 - [45] Originally by: Adaera Well, I for one have already put my Falcon up for auction. Hopefully it'll go before prices do Falcons will do very good still. Rooks and Scorpions will have a use finally. And the whines will go on. Others will fit ECCM and use command ships with information modules (which are rarely used...). Proud member of RZR - Decadence.
GTC seller72	Posted - 2009.03.25 11:31:00 - [46] Originally by: Colonel Xaven Falcons will do very good still. That remains to be seen tbh. Originally by: Colonel Xaven Rooks and Scorpions will have a use finally. The falcons old position at range in gate camps?... Originally by: Colonel Xaven And the whines will go on. The ONLY true constsnt in EVE. Originally by: Colonel Xaven Others will fit ECCM and use command ships with information modules (which are rarely used...). The only ppl who will do that are those who already do it...
nabort Total Mayhem.	Posted - 2009.03.25 11:37:00 - [47] In my opinion, ECM will lose much of its almost unchallenged superiority over the other Recon ships, but will still retain a reasonable degree of utility. Also, Scorpion love. However, a nerf rarely solves anything, and I think a new FOTM will emerge. Without strong ECM, RR gangs will become even more potent, and the shorter range on the Falcons puts them in the range of everyone's second favourite whine - Scorch L. As far as I'm concerned, I couldn't give a damn. I have semi-wasted SP in Recon 5, which now seems fairly redundant, but 99% of the time I roll in RR BS gangs, so Hi5 me.
Mr Brainiac	Posted - 2009.03.25 11:54:00 - [48] BEfore you nerf falcon which I seriously use@hate, please fix other recons. I.E Dampeners... I agree were overpowered, but it should remain so on specced ships (especially lachesis). Rook... I had one once, would love to fly it again if it would be usefull. Pilgrim - well I killed couple of those 1:1 in T1 cruiser - seriously needs to get some advantage, every missle boat or drone boat will insta pop it. Rapier/huggin - every smallship pilot fears it. its omfgpownship - and it can paint which is not bad - I popped recently in HAC from 2-3 volleys of sentry drones(T2) while beeing painted.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.25 11:55:00 - [49] Originally by: nabort As far as I'm concerned, I couldn't give a damn. I have semi-wasted SP in Recon 5, which now seems fairly redundant, but 99% of the time I roll in RR BS gangs, so Hi5 me. The way that CCP caves into whiners guess whats next on the nerf to uselessness list once the whining starts again after falcons have been made pointless.
Cletus Graeme Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2009.03.25 16:21:00 - [50] What's the problem with ECM ships?
Solid Prefekt Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.03.25 16:49:00 - [51] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: General Coochie Also like it. Falcon pilots might have to fit mid slot tank now and step down to just above the other recons usefulness instead of being miles above. But without secondary EW, 3rd weapon or drone bay... Ok, we will make ECM hit every time, but be only 60% effective so I will still hit you for 40% damage. And then I am more then happy to give Falcon pilots a 3rd weapon, a secondary EW (like we have TP), and a drone bay. All you have to give up is your ridiculous range and fly under 40km like the rest of us. You will have the ENTIRE Minmatar race on your side if these changes were put into effect.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:04:00 - [52] Originally by: Liang Nuren On second thought, the removal of SDA strength is a maaaaajor nerf to ECM, and it's not nearly made up for by the paltry ECM strength increase. So I think we'll see : 3.6 Base * 1.25 (Skills) * 2.0 (BS5) = 9 ECM strength? Yay, a 10% chance to jam a BS or something? Thanks, just make sure you give the Scorp 6 launcher slots along with that ROF bonus. -Liang I find it highly unlikely that Scorpion would get enough firepower to be worthwhile as the proposed 'short range brawler'. What will happen with removal of ECM range bonus from scorpion (even if you replace it with higher ECM strenght bonus in combination of distortion amp nerf) is that Raven will be better e-war platform at those ranges than scorpion or if you indeed fit Scrpion for e-war in that range you will just melt in short to mid range. I'm relatively neutral as far as falcon/rook planned changes go - yeah I can fly them but I don't consider them to be fleet platforms. I do consider Scorpion as your regular zerozero fleet-blob platform tho.
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:06:00 - [53] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: General Coochie Also like it. Falcon pilots might have to fit mid slot tank now and step down to just above the other recons usefulness instead of being miles above. But without secondary EW, 3rd weapon or drone bay... They would still be more useful. Got Cooch?, solo PvP movie
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:31:00 - [54] Sooo, everything but DPS and Tank has been nerfed to near uselessness in all but the most specific conditions. Man, this game is gettin' worse and worse.
Rochel Hakiri hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.03.25 20:09:00 - [55] Noooo not a falcon nerf im still recovering from the nano-ishtar nerf sigh now you've done it ccp, i shot the kitty!

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