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Raa Asa Autonums	Posted - 2009.03.25 02:48:00 - [31] Originally by: Shade Millith Edited by: Shade Millith on 25/03/2009 02:46:20 Edited by: Shade Millith on 25/03/2009 02:45:29 Originally by: Sandwich PvP ECCM? I used to think that ECCM was a good counter for a falcon, until I started doing a lot of soloing. Even with 2 overloaded ECCM and a backup sensor array on my drake, I got jammed for two cycles in a fight against a single target with a falcon. I had over 109 sensor strength. To get that I had to lower my tank, my DPS and my tackling ability. Really? Don't say so.
Trader20	Posted - 2009.03.25 03:01:00 - [32] Lol I knew it before u did so I win.
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.03.25 03:13:00 - [33] There was a ton of people who knew if was going to be the range that got nerfed if anything, me included as it stuck out like a sore thumb. The real pat on the back goes to the guy who even put the idea in features and idead about falloff for ewar. Though I can't remember who and cant be bothered to search, might even have been you Bellum, lol. After looking at the proposed changes for the Scorpion Rook and Falcon and being a caldari pilot I can say +1 rep to CCP, ewar nerf and compensated the ships for it. Win-Win for everyone. if you disagree with me then you should probably post a response and stop reading my signature.
Digital Solaris	Posted - 2009.03.25 03:28:00 - [34] Stop giving yourself the credit, Bellum. You make it sound as if you were the "grand architect" behind the changes. Everyone knew that CCP had changes for ecm-ships down the pipeline. It was obvious to everyone, but how that bit of knowledge passed you is anyone's guess really. But I imagine your mind was occupied with blaster damage being bad... again?
Foulque	Posted - 2009.03.25 03:31:00 - [35] Originally by: Sandwich PvP Sorry, but even in small gang pvp there were a number of counters to Falcons, if you were foolish enough not to bring one or more of them, then you deserved to fail. ECCM? Fast lock Snipers? Falcons are a cardboard ship, now that they intend to nerf them to close range, they are no longer a viable fleet or even small gang ship. Because the fact that you need to dedicate part of your fleet to counter a single ship isn't a sign that it's not balanced at all right? GG CCP, took you long enough. ________
Raa Asa Autonums	Posted - 2009.03.25 03:34:00 - [36] Edited by: Raa Asa on 25/03/2009 03:34:27
Raa Asa Autonums	Posted - 2009.03.25 03:37:00 - [37] Originally by: Foulque Because the fact that you need to dedicate part of your fleet to counter a single ship isn't a sign that it's not balanced at all right? It makes you use your brain and PvP more interesting.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.25 03:58:00 - [38] Originally by: Wilhelm Beck unlucky for you it hasn't happened yet Yeah, they needed a few more Falcons. My children's children will be jammed because of that. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.03.25 06:11:00 - [39] …sooo, use a Rook? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2009.03.25 06:17:00 - [40] get used to falloff and you'll still operate at 100+ km - putting the gist back into logistics
Lord WarATron Amarr Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2009.03.25 06:38:00 - [41] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 25/03/2009 06:38:19 Its a good change. I say this as a falcon pilot myself, but the entire EW concept is rather skewed. E.G one race has racial EW to target paint someone at close range, and another can tracking disrupt at close range as well. Another can sensor dampner at close range and almost all of these EW types is no-ware near as good as forcing the enemy to break their lock for 20 seconds. If anything, each race should have a racial ECM and caldari juet just multispecs on top. Since its too late in eve to do that, I would like to see ECM left as it was and just have it break locks insted of the 20 second jam cycle. The only issue with ecm was purely the long length of jamming cycle, which turned small gang pvp from tactics to "who has more falcons". -- Billion Isk Mission
Grek Forto Malevolent Intentions Dark Solar Empire	Posted - 2009.03.25 07:45:00 - [42] Yes, Falcon need nerf.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.25 07:49:00 - [43] Edited by: Esmenet on 25/03/2009 07:49:45 Originally by: Foulque Originally by: Sandwich PvP Sorry, but even in small gang pvp there were a number of counters to Falcons, if you were foolish enough not to bring one or more of them, then you deserved to fail. ECCM? Fast lock Snipers? Falcons are a cardboard ship, now that they intend to nerf them to close range, they are no longer a viable fleet or even small gang ship. Because the fact that you need to dedicate part of your fleet to counter a single ship isn't a sign that it's not balanced at all right? GG CCP, took you long enough. Its sad to see eve pvp once again balanced in favour of those that just want to go with a random collection of ships without thought to fleet composition. Go go brainless pvpers. Oh and i look forward to the rr-gang whines. Why train anything but amarr atm?
Samiloth Justinian Evolution Band of Brothers Reloaded	Posted - 2009.03.25 07:53:00 - [44] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I stuck my neck out with the prediction with the possibility of being wrong, but no, I was right. I was right all along. Yeah, always bet on stupidity. It's often a safe bet.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.03.25 08:51:00 - [45] Also, I wonder if now would be a good time to lobby for similar changes to the other Recons to give the two variants some distinct roles, possibly along the same lines. Eg. Arazu/Lachesis — one gets a range bonus, the other a strength bonus… hell you could even be nutty and apply the strength bonus to the scrams (because how often do you see Lacheses?) ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Orion GUardian Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.25 08:55:00 - [46] So...hmm..what did I see....Falcon and rook are going to be near useless now.... A close Range falcon? Damn.....surviving a whole volley am I? shrugs Ok going back to the blackbird then its cheaper
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.25 08:59:00 - [47] Originally by: Zeba If they nerf the range then Falcons should get a 25m3 drone bay. Hilariously, they're leaving the rook as a long range ECM boat and giving it the drone bay. LAWL!
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:00:00 - [48] Originally by: Esmenet Edited by: Esmenet on 25/03/2009 07:49:45 Originally by: Foulque Originally by: Sandwich PvP Sorry, but even in small gang pvp there were a number of counters to Falcons, if you were foolish enough not to bring one or more of them, then you deserved to fail. ECCM? Fast lock Snipers? Falcons are a cardboard ship, now that they intend to nerf them to close range, they are no longer a viable fleet or even small gang ship. Because the fact that you need to dedicate part of your fleet to counter a single ship isn't a sign that it's not balanced at all right? GG CCP, took you long enough. Its sad to see eve pvp once again balanced in favour of those that just want to go with a random collection of ships without thought to fleet composition. Go go brainless pvpers. Oh and i look forward to the rr-gang whines. Why train anything but amarr atm? I'm not. FoTM anticipation beats FoTM chasing every time. Next up: Gallante.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:01:00 - [49] Edited by: Tippia on 25/03/2009 09:02:00 Originally by: Orion GUardian A close Range falcon? Damn.....surviving a whole volley am I? 52+81km… so the same range as an Arazu (well, longer optimal, shorter falloff). Yah, poor you. Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Zeba If they nerf the range then Falcons should get a 25m3 drone bay. Hilariously, they're leaving the rook as a long range ECM boat and giving it the drone bay. LAWL! I'll admit this made me lol too… But hey, it's excellent for chasing off those inties and drone swarms people will send after you. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:11:00 - [50] Edited by: Zeba on 25/03/2009 09:12:00 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Orion GUardian A close Range falcon? Damn.....surviving a whole volley am I? 52+81kmà so the same range as an Arazu (well, longer optimal, shorter falloff). Yah, poor you. With even moar jam strength the new closer range Falcon should easily be able to drop a couple of jammers for a usable buffer tank. Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Zeba If they nerf the range then Falcons should get a 25m3 drone bay. Hilariously, they're leaving the rook as a long range ECM boat and giving it the drone bay. LAWL! I'll admit this made me lol tooà But hey, it's excellent for chasing off those inties and drone swarms people will send after you. You would think the close range Falcon would benefit from the drone bay and the Rook would be better off with higher agility to moar easily escape sneaky uncloaking counter recons, charging intys or sniping bs due to its non cov ops cloak. Yay! Got meh sig back! ♥ Weatherman
Orion GUardian Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:12:00 - [51] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Orion GUardian A close Range falcon? Damn.....surviving a whole volley am I? 52+81kmà so the same range as an Arazu (well, longer optimal, shorter falloff). Yah, poor you. Hmm please turn on your brain and THINK about it...you have 4 low slots you dot need them for anything but Tank. Reading Chronotis post you will NEED a SDA or two to get into that range compartiment [they prolly will script that, too] so the falcon has 2 low slots left for a little tank.. See the difference? Second thought: Your RSDs are working 100% of the time, always....Caldari ECM doesn't. They CAN miss a cycle and die in a single volley....you can't you just need to pin the guy down and be safe with his range removed.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:17:00 - [52] Originally by: Bellum Eternus So, a while back I made a thread about how CCP will be nerfing Falcon range specifically, and all ECM range in general. Here is the thread via Eve-search.com: I TOLD YOU SO Everyone flamed me blah blah blah, told me that I didn't know what I was talking about etc., that there was no official word on it, blah blah blah. I stuck my neck out with the prediction with the possibility of being wrong, but no, I was right. I was right all along. So yeah, I told you so, but you didn't want to listen to me. Piracy difficulty just went up a notch now that most ECM ships won't be able to operate inside of sentry range. Good luck with that. Nobody needed to tell anyone. From the explosive increase of Falcon useage throughout the last year, it was obviously something would be done by CCP. I just don't agree with their approach, I'd rather they would make ECM a more interesting mechanics rather than the utterly boring claptrap it is now. And about the 'sticking your neck out', you didn't. There needs to be a risk for being able to 'stick your neck out', I fail to see the risk, I merely see a case of unnecessary chest-thumping and throwing a I told you so tantrum. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Orion GUardian Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:17:00 - [53] Originally by: Zeba With even moar jam strength the new closer range Falcon should easily be able to drop a couple of jammers for a usable buffer tank. No it can't....because ECM is racial....need at least 4 if you are not know what you are up against. AND it is chance based so you are better of bringing 2 ECMs of each anyway. I dont know what you couldn't understand about the words "Chance based" when you are complaining about ECCM not 100% foolproof and claiming "permajam". Second just means he was having lots of jammers on you. Anyway its too late. Whining won over logic again. Good for me I do not fly Falcons. I am just ****ed that its goig" easy mode" again and Caldari are getting their golden bullet most likely
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:22:00 - [54] Originally by: Orion GUardian Reading Chronotis post you will NEED a SDA or two to get into that range compartiment [they prolly will script that, too] so the falcon has 2 low slots left for a little tank.. Originally by: Orion GUardian so the falcon has 2 low slots left for a little tank.. Originally by: Orion GUardian falcon … low slots … tank Are you going to armour-tank your Falcon? And you're asking me to turn my brain on? Quote: Second thought: Your RSDs are working 100% of the time Falloff = random chance for RSDs, so no, you're quite wrong there. Quote: They CAN miss a cycle and die in a single volley....you can't you just need to pin the guy down and be safe with his range removed. Except, of course, that unlike with ECM, he can fire the whole time, even when the RSD is in effect — hit or miss, you still die in a single volley. In order to be "safe" I need to damp him down to <45km, because if I'm farther away than that, my RSD will start missing, which means he can now hit me at those higher ranges… So the exact same thing holds true for the Arazu. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Orion GUardian Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:31:00 - [55] Edited by: Orion GUardian on 25/03/2009 09:31:43 Originally by: Tippia Are you going to armour-tank your Falcon? And you're asking me to turn my brain on? YES, not becasue I am stupid but becasue I need the mid slots for ECM....sure I could use 5 mid slots for tank fit 2 Multis and hop I can jam a few crusiers and frigs....tried THINKING again? Thats the problem withc ahnce absed Quote: Falloff = random chance for RSDs, so no, you're quite wrong there. If you are in falloff AND nothing on the enemy ship is going to modify your chance! Thats not the ssystem jsut a punishment for being to far away. Quote: Except, of course, that unlike with ECM, he can fire the whole time, even when the RSD is in effect ù hit or miss, you still die in a single volley. In order to be "safe" I need to damp him down to <45km, because if I'm farther away than that, my RSD will start missing, which means he can now hit me at those higher rangesà So the exact same thing holds true for the Arazu. Yes, show me the maths or example how an Arazu is unable to damp a normal Ship down to 45km. And yes, your RSD starts missing at higher Ranges. ECM starts missing at every Range. Thus Range was the protection
Don ZOLA Caldari Vale Tudo.	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:31:00 - [56] Edited by: Don ZOLA on 25/03/2009 09:31:52 Originally by: Kalissa Dauntless Originally by: Bellum Eternus Falcons just need to have their ECM strength cut in half. Problem solved. Agreed. Nerfing the operational range would make the ship useless as drones/sentries/snipers/people looking at it/small rocks would cause the falcon to explode. As Bellum suggests, making the ECM strength weaker and allowing the target more chance of resisting is the sensible, quick and easy option. I've seen loads of posts like boost the scorp and rook, make the falcon jamming only work on wednesdays if it's raining and you're holding a can of sardines in your left hand while hopping on one foot - far too complicated, time consuming and throws it all into the unknown. Cut their ECM effectiveness- simple, easy and everyone knows what they're getting. i strongly disagree. Too big range was the biggest problem about them imho. You cant do anything when they sit at 200+ km and jamm around unless you have dedicated speed ship to get on it then whole gang to warp on it just to get rid of it. Falcons in close range are much more vulnerable and harder to fly and operate. Plate is a must and you still often have to warp out and back in to survive. Ie you are not sitting far away, safe and jamm constantly. I think that reducing the range is the right move, thou the ship might get at least some more dps then (even light drones would help). edit : typo
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:45:00 - [57] Edited by: Zeba on 25/03/2009 09:47:07 Originally by: Orion GUardian Originally by: Zeba With even moar jam strength the new closer range Falcon should easily be able to drop a couple of jammers for a usable buffer tank. No it can't....because ECM is racial....need at least 4 if you are not know what you are up against. AND it is chance based so you are better of bringing 2 ECMs of each anyway. I dont know what you couldn't understand about the words "Chance based" when you are complaining about ECCM not 100% foolproof and claiming "permajam". Second just means he was having lots of jammers on you. Anyway its too late. Whining won over logic again. Good for me I do not fly Falcons. I am just **ed that its goig" easy mode" again and Caldari are getting their golden bullet most likely Falcon has seven mids so by your fitting logic it could be one mwd four jammers and then two slots left for two large extenders. If that can't hold its own for a few vollys whilst you jam or evade the attacker then somethings wrong. Also permajam is the condition in which each jam rolls over to the next one endlessly over and over when the jamming ship has the right set of racials or just the seemingly continuous good luck with multis that top skill jammers enjoy. So it might be chance based but chances are if you are in that situation you won't be locking anything anytime soon. Yay! Got meh sig back! ♥ Weatherman**
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:50:00 - [58] Originally by: Orion GUardian YES, not becasue I am stupid but becasue I need the mid slots for ECM....sure I could use 5 mid slots for tank fit 2 Multis and hop I can jam a few crusiers and frigs.... Why on earth would you use 5 midslots for tank? Two is more than sufficient (and will incidentally give you a better tank than the Arazu). You have additional midslots for a reason: to fit your tank in. You also only have one thing to fit in your midslots (apart from the obvious tank + cap + speed), whereas the Arazu generally wants to squeeze in cap, speed, ewar and tackle — it's secondary role… oh, and maybe some eccm to counter those nasty Falcons… and/or a sensor booster to lock faster than they do. And for that matter, yes. Why would you need more than two multis? One RSD isn't enough to do anything overly harmful to a ship, so you need to dedicate just about every one you have to damp a single target in any useful way. If you need that many ECMs, maybe you should re-think your targetting strategy (or just train up your skills a bit). You're getting a strength boost, remember, so why do you need so many? Quote: If you are in falloff AND nothing on the enemy ship is going to modify your chance! Thats not the ssystem jsut a punishment for being to far away. …which makes your claim of 100% hit rate and "being safe at range" completely false. Quote: Yes, show me the maths or example how an Arazu is unable to damp a normal Ship down to 45km. Define "a normal ship." And note that 45km is the very edge of the envelope and at max skills — you want to be closer than that to give yourself a maneuvering buffer. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Razoq Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.25 09:54:00 - [59] Edited by: Razoq on 25/03/2009 09:54:42 Oh damn i liked getting perma jammed..
Lt Angus Caldari End Game. Dead End.	Posted - 2009.03.25 10:06:00 - [60] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Orion GUardian YES, not becasue I am stupid but becasue I need the mid slots for ECM....sure I could use 5 mid slots for tank fit 2 Multis and hop I can jam a few crusiers and frigs.... Why on earth would you use 5 midslots for tank? Two is more than sufficient (and will incidentally give you a better tank than the Arazu). You have additional midslots for a reason: to fit your tank in. You also only have one thing to fit in your midslots (apart from the obvious tank + cap + speed), whereas the Arazu generally wants to squeeze in cap, speed, ewar and tackle ù it's secondary roleà oh, and maybe some eccm to counter those nasty Falconsà and/or a sensor booster to lock faster than they do. And for that matter, yes. Why would you need more than two multis? One RSD isn't enough to do anything overly harmful to a ship, so you need to dedicate just about every one you have to damp a single target in any useful way. If you need that many ECMs, maybe you should re-think your targetting strategy (or just train up your skills a bit). You're getting a strength boost, remember, so why do you need so many? Quote: If you are in falloff AND nothing on the enemy ship is going to modify your chance! Thats not the ssystem jsut a punishment for being to far away. àwhich makes your claim of 100% hit rate and "being safe at range" completely false. Quote: Yes, show me the maths or example how an Arazu is unable to damp a normal Ship down to 45km. Define "a normal ship." And note that 45km is the very edge of the envelope and at max skills ù you want to be closer than that to give yourself a maneuvering buffer. 2 mid tank falcon doesnt even hit half the tank of an arazu, 4 mid slot tank is still a little bellow it please resize your signature to the maximum allowed file size of 24000 bytes. Navigator Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers

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