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big miker Minmatar Order of Anarchy	Posted - 2009.04.05 14:14:00 - [31] Edited by: big miker on 05/04/2009 14:14:41 Best thing imho is too lower the CPU need for smartbombs. How many ships are ectually capable of fitting a smartbomb with those cpu requirements? Almost none. big m, edit: First on page 2
El Yatta Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2009.04.05 14:56:00 - [32] What? Is this some sort of joke? CCP would have to be mad to nerf ECM drones, as they're the only EW drone that's any use. The others are terribad, and need a boost. ECM drones are entirely balanced - the pilot who chooses them has to give up quite a large chunk of their dps. The thorax example you cite - with good skills, unbonused Hammerhead IIs give up 150 DPS (ranged dps, dont forget), which is more than a THIRD of the dps of an electron II rax. Ie they're taking a 33% damage nerf to gain that ability. To make a comparison - that rax has opted for a really really poorly fitted, nerfed Kitsune to accompany him, rather than a well-skilled, well-fitted pulse crusader, blaster incursus, or equivalent. They're also by far the least tough drone, and are easily dispatched by medium smartbombs, warrior IIs, etc. ECCM are superb counters due to the low jam strength per drone, although of course you get the usual "why should I fit a module to counter someone else's entire setup/drone bay" whine brigade who think that because they got jammed once one time when they used ECCM that the mechanics are broken (hint: they're not). At the end of the day, this whine thread is nothing new, but considering CCP have caved on plenty of things in the last couple of years, I wouldn't be surprised if they forced everyone to switch back to damage drones, and put ECM drones with damp, TD, painter and nos drones in the "could have been good content" bin. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces
Raimo Gallente Wrath of Fenris	Posted - 2009.04.05 16:02:00 - [33] A thought occured to me. It might have been suggested already, but how about a warp disrupting drone with one point? It might be OP but it still might be balance-able by being only 25m3 size and otherwise limited sufficiently in speed and range. It would be perfect for prospective Falcon killers and also very handy against the "get out of jail" ECM drones... Is it a bad idea?
JGR Guinevere Caldari Veteran's Department	Posted - 2009.04.05 17:32:00 - [34] Originally by: Raimo A thought occured to me. It might have been suggested already, but how about a warp disrupting drone with one point? It might be OP but it still might be balance-able by being only 25m3 size and otherwise limited sufficiently in speed and range. It would be perfect for prospective Falcon killers and also very handy against the "get out of jail" ECM drones... Is it a bad idea? Not a good idea. Just think of all the possible abuses of a warp scram drone.
Isaac Starstriker Amarr Solaris Operations	Posted - 2009.04.05 18:31:00 - [35] Ignore Merin. I've been trying to get him/her/it? removed from the forums. Nothing more than a thoughtless troll... --Isaac Isaac's Haul*Mart - Open Please resize sig to a maximum of 400 x 120 and a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2009.04.05 20:10:00 - [36] its true this ecm drones should be nerfed or removed becouse the are an escape-card
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.05 20:18:00 - [37] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 05/04/2009 20:19:15 so what?? If the pilot sacrifies a lot of DPS from drones for the ability to escape, there is nothing wrong. You're trying to claim the right to tackle/fight people, there is no such its even great there is an effective counter for scramblers.
Kowaii Rabbit o1nk	Posted - 2009.04.06 12:10:00 - [38] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Just had another engagement where the extreme broken-ness of ECM drones reared its ugly head. Two Guardians each with 2x ECCMII .. fire on one and sic a flight of EC-600 on the other .. forced a redock when the primary was killed shortly after the buddy was jammed. I won't even bother with the numbers since this should quite frankly not be possible. It is proof positive of a broken mechanic and it needs to be remedied as fast as possible. CCP: You really need to find an alternative to chance based jamming and its effects. When two T2 "counter modules" are not enough to prevent a jam from a STR=1.5 drone something is broken. This is serious space-ships, not a Casino .. die rolls have no place here. This kind of post really ****s me. People who make assumptions that fit their arguments. You don't KNOW that the ecm drones had the effect you suggest they did. You've created the whole story based on the observation that one of two Guardians was killed in an engagement. From this observation you imagine that one of them MUST have been jammed. Since the engagement involved more than just the two Guardians on the enemy side (they also had at least a Hurricane and Stilleto which presumably the Guardians were supposed to be protecting), you don't know for a fact that the Guardians were focusing their reps and energy transfer on each other. This is the killmail on the Guardian: http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=42741 Take into consideration that the Guardian pilots commented in local about being hurt by neuts (from the Archon I guess) and not by ecm drones, and this "proof positive of a broken mechanic" story of yours starts to look a little less proof positive. I wonder how often these experiences prompt nerf threads? http://www.ezy-english.com/
Toyo Italari	Posted - 2009.04.06 12:37:00 - [39] Originally by: El Yatta What? Is this some sort of joke? CCP would have to be mad to nerf ECM drones, as they're the only EW drone that's any use. The others are terribad, and need a boost. ECM drones are entirely balanced - the pilot who chooses them has to give up quite a large chunk of their dps. The thorax example you cite - with good skills, unbonused Hammerhead IIs give up 150 DPS (ranged dps, dont forget), which is more than a THIRD of the dps of an electron II rax. Ie they're taking a 33% damage nerf to gain that ability. To make a comparison - that rax has opted for a really really poorly fitted, nerfed Kitsune to accompany him, rather than a well-skilled, well-fitted pulse crusader, blaster incursus, or equivalent. They're also by far the least tough drone, and are easily dispatched by medium smartbombs, warrior IIs, etc. ECCM are superb counters due to the low jam strength per drone, although of course you get the usual "why should I fit a module to counter someone else's entire setup/drone bay" whine brigade who think that because they got jammed once one time when they used ECCM that the mechanics are broken (hint: they're not). At the end of the day, this whine thread is nothing new, but considering CCP have caved on plenty of things in the last couple of years, I wouldn't be surprised if they forced everyone to switch back to damage drones, and put ECM drones with damp, TD, painter and nos drones in the "could have been good content" bin. This. Originally by: Isaac Starstriker Ignore Merin. I've been trying to get him/her/it? removed from the forums. Nothing more than a thoughtless troll... --Isaac And this. Merin -can't- adapt. It seems him/her/it is more interested in trying to recreate Eve in his/her/its image, and insists that all ideas brought forth by him/her/it are perfectly balanced. I don't even use ECM Drones, although I have very high drone skills in general, as I'm sure they're effective enough but I prefer using damage over ecm (Ogre IIs, for example). Just because nobody's yelling "these need to be nerf!" about the other ewar drones doesn't necessarily make ecm drones out of balance with the rest of the game, just with the rest of the ewar drones.. Which don't tend to get used very much. Merin, you went in not knowing the fit and drone setup of your opponent, and lost a kill as a result. Had you known, you would have fit some counter for it so that you could still make your kill. Thus, effective counters to it exist and your entire argument is flawed. Bear in mind, I am making the assumption here that you would have actually fit one of the very viable counters that have already been suggested.. Particularly if ecm drones are as broken and common as you say. In fact, if they are such an "I win" button, you have no excuse whatsoever for not fitting a counter as everyone would be using them as a result of FOTM. That, or you still would have let your kill get away. The fault is yours, not CCP's.
Endless Subversion The Accursed	Posted - 2009.04.06 13:49:00 - [40] Edited by: Endless Subversion on 06/04/2009 14:00:13 Stop flaming Merin about this. ECM drones are terribly overpowered, especially vs smaller ships. See THIS post for how stupid they are. Highlight: 5x light ecm drones jam a geddon 26% of the time. LOL NERF! I get gayed by them all the time. A single light ECM drone jammed my ECCM'd abaddon yesterday (I have the fraps for it) and 5x Med ECM drones jammed my overloaded ECCM'd abaddon for 3 cycles in a 2 min fight. That means 50m3 had me unable to lock for more than half of a fight. Small gangs have a hard enough time engaging larger blobs without also being unable to fight due to ultra cheap, super low skilled swarms of ecm drones preventing them from locking anything. The things are stupidly overpowered.
Rordan D'Kherr	Posted - 2009.04.06 13:57:00 - [41]
Rufis Dangerfield	Posted - 2009.04.06 14:00:00 - [42] Originally by: Endless Subversion Stop flaming Merin about this. ECM drones are terribly overpowered, esepcially vs smaller ships. I get gayed by them all the time. A single light ECM drone jammed my ECCM'd abaddon yesterday (I have the fraps for it) and 5x Med ECM drones jammed my overloaded ECCM'd abaddon for 3 cycles in a 2 min fight. That means 50m3 had me unable to lock for more than half of a fight. Small gangs have a hard enough time engaging larger blobs without also being unable to fight due to ultra cheap, super low skilled swarms of ecm drones preventing them from locking anything. The things are stupidly overpowered. Cool. Where's the link to the fraps?
Allaera Caldari Kisogo research group	Posted - 2009.04.06 14:12:00 - [43] Edited by: Allaera on 06/04/2009 14:16:33 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Nerf ****ing ECM drones. A load of ECM drones should not be an automatic "get out of jail free" card in a 1v1. Currently, you can launch them and you're almost guaranteed to get a jam before you die. At least with Falcons, you know that your opponent had to spend a pilot on a dedicated ECM ship (which is paper-thin and brings nothing else to the fight), but any random ship with a drone bay can carry ECM drones for an automatic escape option. What the F...!?!? You're crying because someone learned to counter your point? Well dry your eyes princess and welcome to EVE! Btw, here's a little advice - why not do some learning yourself and figure out a counter for his counter? I believe in this case it's called ECCM Edit: Or maybe even a smartbomb
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.06 14:17:00 - [44] ECCM? oh noes, this would take a whole mid-slot away from the gank/tank setup!
Colonel Xaven Decadence. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.06 14:34:00 - [45] Edited by: Colonel Xaven on 06/04/2009 14:34:02 TL;DR ECM drones work. Some people do not like it. Proud member of RZR - Decadence.
Endless Subversion The Accursed	Posted - 2009.04.06 20:12:00 - [46] Originally by: Rufis Dangerfield Cool. Where's the link to the fraps? And assuming the tables are right, what chance of jamming an un-ECCM'd Geddon with 5 light ecm drones do you think would be best, if not 26%. You don't think an average of 1 jam every 80 or so seconds is ok? How does that change with an additional 96% sensor strength + 30% overload for ECCM II? Should they have no affect at all? I think 25m3 of drone bay that can be used by having electronic warfare drones 2 and drone 3 taking a geddon out for 26% of a fight is pretty stupid. Did you know 2x light ecm drones are the same strength as 1x med ecm? Unlike small vs medium dmg drones, where the medium does less dmg than 2x lights. This means that drones 5 isn't needed to be just as effective with ECM drones. Also 1/80 looks like a lot less than 1/4 huh? 1 jam ever 80 seconds is 20 seconds out of 80. That's a 25% dmg reduction as well as breaking neut, point, web and the ability to assign drones. I think ECM as a mechanic is dumb. Breaking lock is far too powerful as it effectively ends a pvp engagement (they warp) and/or favors blobs totally (outnumbered AND unable to target means no losses for the blob, as well as solo/small gang players needing dmg drones for utility vs tacklers/smaller targets and for when they don't have a lock, while the blob just has enough ships to cover this role). Ecm that can be used after a few hours of train time at 100% strength on any ship with a drone bay is even stupider. Here's another point for you. If I fit a sensor booster and they use 25m3 of sensor dampening drones I have BETTER sensor stats that I would with no drones / no SB. In other words fitting a counter module counters their drones 100% while also providing a benefit if no damps are on the field. Fitting an ECCM means I'm just jammed less and have no benefit if no ecm is around. Also, way to be a *****, I'll see about turning the raw fraps into a movie file just for you and then upload it if you personally apologize to me for being a d-bag. "If the tables are correct" "Where is the link to the fraps" etc.
Sera Ryskin	Posted - 2009.04.06 21:19:00 - [47] Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 06/04/2009 21:21:03 What's really hilarious is the crying about "you just can't adapt!!!!". Sorry, but that's just bull****. I use ECM drones myself, so any nerf would apply just as much to me as to my targets. At least I'm honest enough to admit that I'm abusing a massively overpowered weapon on every ship with 50m3 drone bay. Honestly, the problem is with the ECM system in general and its black and white "oops, you're jammed, I win" mechanic, but I'm not idealistic enough to think that CCP will ever do anything about it. PS: "fit ECCM" is still stupid, no matter how many times you repeat it. The solution is not ECCM, the solution is bringing a second or third tackler to ensure that at least someone keeps a point on the target. So much for solo PvP I guess... ========== Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!
Vulture mmkay	Posted - 2009.04.06 21:47:00 - [48] ok so let me get this straight you are complaining about this because 1 person ecmed u by using drones that are easly counterable and because he used them and managed to escape you think there "overpowered" they are no way near overpowered compared to other stuff in EVE maybe CCP should think to which race is intended to use drones and give dominix ishtar and vexor and myrm a e-war boost to drones for an ability then they would be overpowered like nano was "overpowered" im just guessing ur angry at ECM nerf upcumming that you believe all other people should suffer well some news for you the dorr is over there >>>>>>> and dnt let the way out of eve to wow hit ur ass
Vulture mmkay	Posted - 2009.04.06 21:53:00 - [49] Originally by: Sera Ryskin Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 06/04/2009 21:21:03 PS: "fit ECCM" is still stupid, no matter how many times you repeat it. The solution is not ECCM, the solution is bringing a second or third tackler to ensure that at least someone keeps a point on the target. So much for solo PvP I guess... lofl ecm work against drones but not falcons since they sit 200km+ away and permajam u ecm drones just get a 1-2 ecm's off once every fight well mine do anyway unless ur usin super ecm drones
Sera Ryskin	Posted - 2009.04.06 21:59:00 - [50] Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 06/04/2009 22:00:18 Originally by: Vulture mmkay ok so let me get this straight you are complaining about this because 1 person ecmed u by using drones that are easly counterable and because he used them and managed to escape you think there "overpowered" they are no way near overpowered compared to other stuff in EVE maybe CCP should think to which race is intended to use drones and give dominix ishtar and vexor and myrm a e-war boost to drones for an ability then they would be overpowered like nano was "overpowered" im just guessing ur angry at ECM nerf upcumming that you believe all other people should suffer well some news for you the dorr is over there >>>>>>> and dnt let the way out of eve to wow hit ur ass First, let me introduce you to a little friend of mine. It's called a period. It is typically used to mark the end of a sentence, and can be found in the bottom right corner of your keyboard. The correct use of this wonderful little invention will transform your incoherent rant into something that actually makes sense. Now then: ECM drones, as a defensive measure, can not be countered. It is literally impossible to smartbomb or lock ECM drones before they get at least one attempt at jamming, giving a 1v1 opponent an extremely good chance of escaping. Remember, perma-jam is not the objective here, you just need one successful jam cycle to escape. As for "go back to WoW", sorry, but you're an idiot. Read the post above: *I abuse the hell out of ECM drones, just like I've abused Falcons in "1v1"s. And I will continue to do so, until CCP finally nerfs them. I just think the game would be better off overall if the overpowered "get out of jail free" card was removed for everyone*, myself included. PS: the existence of counters does not prevent a module/drone from being overpowered. The old pre-nerf WCS had counters, but that didn't stop them from getting a long-overdue nerf. ECM drones are more of the same: they make it way too easy to avoid having to commit to combat. ========== Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!
Kowaii Rabbit o1nk	Posted - 2009.04.07 00:39:00 - [51] Originally by: Endless Subversion Did you know 2x light ecm drones are the same strength as 1x med ecm? Unlike small vs medium dmg drones, where the medium does less dmg than 2x lights. This means that drones 5 isn't needed to be just as effective with ECM drones. Nope, I didn't know that multiple ecm drones combined their ecm strength. You sure? Originally by: Endless Subversion Also 1/80 looks like a lot less than 1/4 huh? 1 jam ever 80 seconds is 20 seconds out of 80. That's a 25% dmg reduction as well as breaking neut, point, web and the ability to assign drones. That's assuming the fight lasts long enough for the drones to have any affect whatsoever. Did you know 80 seconds is 1 minute and 20 seconds? Why is this unreasonable on an un-ECCM'd ship? Have you worked out yet what that 26% jam probability becomes witha 96% increase in sensor strength from fitting an ECCM II, and then what it becomes if you overload it for another 30%? Do people actually believe their own rhetoric when arguing that ECM just shouldn't work? Originally by: Endless Subversion Ecm that can be used after a few hours of train time at 100% strength on any ship with a drone bay is even stupider. fair enough argument. Originally by: Endless Subversion Also, way to be a *****, I'll see about turning the raw fraps into a movie file just for you and then upload it if you personally apologize to me for being a d-bag. "If the tables are correct" "Where is the link to the fraps" etc. Hey, you want to quote evidence to support an argument, you'd better be ready to present it if called on, baby! http://www.ezy-english.com/
Jimmy Doe POS Consultants Group LLC	Posted - 2009.04.07 01:09:00 - [52] I've been doing alot of testing on sisi lately, and I am seeing ECM drones everywhere. Its a damn sad day when a cruiser can unload 5 medium ECM's and keep me perma jammed in a BS. And yes, it happens all the damn time. in fact, after the ECM-domi-nos nerf, i used a similar setup but with 5 ECM drones out to jam the target while i sucked all the cap out, then recalled and deployed heavies to finish them off so that i didnt even have to tank anything. Yet i still say that something with 1 or 2 points of jam strength shouldnt have as high a chance to jam as they actually do. I dont say you have to nerf their strength, but either the equation or the % chance needs to atleast be looked at. And I do have to agree that the other ECM drones (TP,SD et al) really need looking at, they are useless. "The tree of liberty is nurtured with the blood of patriots."
Linavin Mercurialis Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.04.07 01:37:00 - [53] I'd agree ECM drones are currently out of line with other EW drones, as well as being slightly too powerful in my opinion. Just look back at the last ECM nerf, where jammer strength got halved and strength bonuses got introduced, multispecs were on everything. Right now 5 light ECM drones (EC-300s) jam as much as a single old multispec. While not as bad as Domi's running around with 3 multispecs, a single multispec on any cruiser with a free med slot could dramatically enhance their small scale combat ability. You've got a similar issue here albiet lessened by the necessity of a drone bay and the loss of 80 dps (perfect skills with warriors). They're just a tad too good, I would rather have a flight of light ecm drones for small gang pvp than warriors or hobgobs. I would agree with a light nerf, no more than say a 15% strength nerf. However the larger issue is how good they are versus all the other EW drones, do boost them in comparison to ECM drone levels of usefulness in the very least. ---
CrestoftheStars Caldari Recreation Of The World	Posted - 2009.04.07 03:49:00 - [54] emm how is this different from a bs comming with light drones? which is small guns ? so no not really.. or actually i would like to see both thing nerfed to hell. but well ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded
CrestoftheStars Caldari Recreation Of The World	Posted - 2009.04.07 03:51:00 - [55] Originally by: big miker Edited by: big miker on 05/04/2009 14:14:41 Best thing imho is too lower the CPU need for smartbombs. How many ships are ectually capable of fitting a smartbomb with those cpu requirements? Almost none. big m, edit: First on page 2 this, and boosting their dmg dramatically, 2 smartbombs should 1-2 hit kill drones of same size. ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded
Phidell Chaos Reborn Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.04.08 05:10:00 - [56] I've said it before and I'll say it again. The ECM jam cycle is far too long. 1m 20s to jam a target means a dps reduction of 25%. 50m3 should not reduce a BS's dps Bs's dps by 1/4. Double that and it's reasonable. On average 2m 40s to jam a BS with light ecm drones. You say it's a long time. Sure it is, but throw 5x hobgob II's and see how effective they are. they'd do absolutely nothing while ECM drones have a decent chance to drastically swing a fight. People complain that 1m 20s and a fight is over. Hell, 20s is more than 1/4 of a fight then. It's overpowered simple as. It's all or nothing ECM, and it's all way too often.

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