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Rogue Lilly
Caldari
Lords Of Filth
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Posted - 2009.03.30 17:53:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 30/03/2009 17:57:41
Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 30/03/2009 17:56:25
Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 30/03/2009 17:55:32
*edit*
yes this is a wordy post, ideas are better conveyed in sentences rather than "ME is good, 3L2P-R CC L33T biotch" language. yes this is a whine, i am unhappy, the reasoning is valid, therefore irritation is a natural result.
I've trained all of my shield tanking skills to 4 or 5. And now I'm irritated that they are pretty useless. On top of the fact that it takes twice as many skills and twice as long to learn shield tanking as it does to armor tanking.
I've tried and tried to find a ship to shield tank in the minmatari line and always come up with the same conclusion; any given shield tanked ship can be outperformed in all regards by a ship of equal class armor tanked.
It comes down to the fact that in a given class there are multiple ships of varying "tiers." not T1/T2, but the tiers in regard to having skill cruiser 2 or cruiser 3 for example. In a class the ships should be different, not better or worse. It should be a give and take without one clearly being superior in every way to the other. This way you have choices instead of "I can fly this one with cruiser 2 or wait 3 hours until i get cruiser 3 and fly another ship that is all around better in every possible aspect."
For example in the mini cruiser line you have the stabber and the rupture. The stabber is supposedly the shield version but in every single aspect is outperformed by the rupture except in speed due to the ship bonus. Oh but wait even the stabber can tank better with armor than if it was fit with shields because after the MWD/WD you are left with 1 mid and 3 low slots....sounds like an armor tank option to me.
Then there are the battlecruisers. The cyclone is the shield tank and the hurricane the armor obviously. But in every single aspect the hurricane outdoes the cyclone because it's a "teir 2" battlecruiser. I have battleship 3 but from everything i've read and the numbers I've looked at the ships lay out about the same there too with the shield tanks being all together inferior.
So basically if you choose to shield tank you are relegated to picking the inferior ship instead of a ship that is on equal footing while only being designed to fly and fit differently.
I have 4 times the sp in shield skills as I do in armor skills and I can still tank incredibly better with armor than shields.
As a warning to any players newer than myself, don't bother training shields unless you are caldari, even though in all the text it says "minmitar ships shield or armor tank."
It's bull and all you will do is waste your time until CCP realized that 90% of their ships aren't flown because they're made completely inferior instead of just "different"
*edited my title to better relay my annoyance*
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digital0verdose
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.30 17:57:00 -
[2]
Edited by: digital0verdose on 30/03/2009 17:57:34
Out of curiosity, how much SP do you have in total and how much is in Engineering?
Also, post the ship you are flying and it's current outfit.
We could keep talking about this all day but you're too busy reading my sig instead.
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Rogue Lilly
Caldari
Lords Of Filth
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Posted - 2009.03.30 18:06:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: digital0verdose
Edited by: digital0verdose on 30/03/2009 17:57:34
Out of curiosity, how much SP do you have in total and how much is in Engineering?
Also, post the ship you are flying and it's current outfit.
6,314,448 sp total
Energy Emission Systems
level 4
Energy Grid Upgrades
level 4
Energy Management
level 4
Energy Pulse Weapons
level 2
Energy Systems Operation
level 4
Engineering
level 4
Shield Compensation
level 4
Shield Emission Systems
level 4
Shield Management
level 4 (about to finish V in a couple minutes.)
Shield Operation
level 4
Shield Upgrades
level 4
Tactical Shield Manipulation
level 2
for a total of about 800,000 SP
I might post my fitting here when i feel like tanking the time, but this isn't about my fittings sucking or any easy answer of the sort. The discussion I put forth would apply to the absolute best possible fitting a genius in eve could come up with because it isn't the fitting, it's the inherent inferiority of ships that are designed to shield tank.
It would apply to any fitting on battleclinic.
Also my own skills don't make a difference because even if you take that variable out of the equation someone with V in every skill possible would still have a better ship in every single respect with one of the armor tanking ships over a shield tanking ship.
It isn't the skills, it isn't the modules fitted in the ships, it is the base attributes of the ships themselves that are the problems.
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digital0verdose
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.30 18:15:00 -
[4]
Well then, since you are infallible on this topic, CCP must be screwing with you since I can go look at the Ships and Modules forums and BattleClinic loadouts for the Hurricane and see numerous posts and highly recommended fits recommending shield tanking.
The conclusion at this point is either you are doing something wrong or they are all idiots and when I see someone with an ! for a picture, especially one that is telling newbies what not to do when Vets recommend the opposite, I am going to assume the issue is you.
We could keep talking about this all day but you're too busy reading my sig instead.
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Grista
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Posted - 2009.03.30 18:16:00 -
[5]
Shield tanking, to do what in which ship...? That's my question.
The Maelstrom is a decent Mission runner, and you see them now and again in large fleet fights. Nearly all T2 Minmatar ships shield tank (though unless you're in a command ship, it's probably just a buffer tank). Examples include:
Sabre (1x MSE)
Vagabond (2x LSE)
Scimitar (1 or more LSE, depending on role)
Sleipnir (passive buffer or active)
Claymore (most often active shield tank)
Rapier and Huginn (1 or more LSE)
The only ships that DON'T shield tank are the Rupture, Muninn, Typhoon, and Tempest (some will even shield buffer tank that and fit the lows for gank in an AC setup). In PvP, I often fit my Hurricane with a passive shield buffer (single or double LSE).
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Rogue Lilly
Caldari
Lords Of Filth
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Posted - 2009.03.30 18:45:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 30/03/2009 18:44:55
Originally by: digital0verdose
Well then, since you are infallible on this topic, CCP must be screwing with you since I can go look at the Ships and Modules forums and BattleClinic loadouts for the Hurricane and see numerous posts and highly recommended fits recommending shield tanking.
The conclusion at this point is either you are doing something wrong or they are all idiots and when I see someone with an ! for a picture, especially one that is telling newbies what not to do when Vets recommend the opposite, I am going to assume the issue is you.
are you sure you aren't going to bowlclinic, because on battleclinic there aren't any shield tanking cane fits that are for pvp that don't say "this is obviously inferior to the armor tank versions on here but i wanted to see if it was at least possible to fit" followed by a ton of thumb downs.
How am I doing something wrong, I'm not using my fits, I'm not using my skills. You narrow minded plebeian. As I said several times it has nothing to do with the fit, but all you forum warriors on here immediately respond with "well you fit must suck" to every single post as if your one of those dolls with the pull string in the back.
And to add to you obvious idiocy, what vets recommend shield tanking over armor, it is a given around here that almost everyone armor tanks because it's common knowledge that it's superior; I was only offing a reasoning WHY it is superior.
So how about you get your head extracted from your arse and think before you wave your epeen.
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digital0verdose
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.30 18:55:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly
are you sure you aren't going to bowlclinic, because on battleclinic there aren't any shield tanking cane fits that are for pvp that don't say "this is obviously inferior to the armor tank versions on here but i wanted to see if it was at least possible to fit" followed by a ton of thumb downs.
How am I doing something wrong, I'm not using my fits, I'm not using my skills. You narrow minded plebeian. As I said several times it has nothing to do with the fit, but all you forum warriors on here immediately respond with "well you fit must suck" to every single post as if your one of those dolls with the pull string in the back.
And to add to you obvious idiocy, what vets recommend shield tanking over armor, it is a given around here that almost everyone armor tanks because it's common knowledge that it's superior; I was only offing a reasoning WHY it is superior.
So how about you get your head extracted from your arse and think before you wave your epeen.
*sigh* Nerd rage at it's finest.
Listen up Scooby.
You are expecting feedback on partial information. Good examples are the fact you don't detail much about anything other than your modest skills and ship race preference. A better example is that you don't say anything about PvP in your original post.
Not only that, but you waltz on in like you're the god of EvE based shield knowledge with your comprehensive 6mil SP and tell newbies not to bother trying. The problem here is is that you detail so little info that some random newbie could read your post, assume that it is globally accurate and make their non-PvP decisions based on it.
I'm not the one standing here who thinks he knows everything. If anyone is waving an epeen around, it is you. I simply asked questions that could give some better insight as to what may be going on but you are the one that puffed out your chest and claimed that you are without fail.
We could keep talking about this all day but you're too busy reading my sig instead.
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Rogue Lilly
Caldari
Lords Of Filth
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Posted - 2009.03.30 19:10:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Grista
Shield tanking, to do what in which ship...? That's my question.
The Maelstrom is a decent Mission runner, and you see them now and again in large fleet fights. Nearly all T2 Minmatar ships shield tank (though unless you're in a command ship, it's probably just a buffer tank). Examples include:
Sabre (1x MSE)
Vagabond (2x LSE)
Scimitar (1 or more LSE, depending on role)
Sleipnir (passive buffer or active)
Claymore (most often active shield tank)
Rapier and Huginn (1 or more LSE)
The only ships that DON'T shield tank are the Rupture, Muninn, Typhoon, and Tempest (some will even shield buffer tank that and fit the lows for gank in an AC setup). In PvP, I often fit my Hurricane with a passive shield buffer (single or double LSE).
This proves my point further. If you add the Hurricane to the list of ships not to shield tank (because despite how much we wish the cane could shield tank, when you armor tank it you end up with the same ship, only better in every regard) you have a list of the best non-command minmatari ships.
Yes there are all those shield tank ships, but they are also the ones that everyone says not to fly because they are inferior in design to the others.
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Rogue Lilly
Caldari
Lords Of Filth
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Posted - 2009.03.30 19:13:00 -
[9]
Originally by: digital0verdose
Originally by: Rogue Lilly
are you sure you aren't going to bowlclinic, because on battleclinic there aren't any shield tanking cane fits that are for pvp that don't say "this is obviously inferior to the armor tank versions on here but i wanted to see if it was at least possible to fit" followed by a ton of thumb downs.
How am I doing something wrong, I'm not using my fits, I'm not using my skills. You narrow minded plebeian. As I said several times it has nothing to do with the fit, but all you forum warriors on here immediately respond with "well you fit must suck" to every single post as if your one of those dolls with the pull string in the back.
And to add to you obvious idiocy, what vets recommend shield tanking over armor, it is a given around here that almost everyone armor tanks because it's common knowledge that it's superior; I was only offing a reasoning WHY it is superior.
So how about you get your head extracted from your arse and think before you wave your epeen.
*sigh* Nerd rage at it's finest.
Listen up Scooby.
You are expecting feedback on partial information. Good examples are the fact you don't detail much about anything other than your modest skills and ship race preference. A better example is that you don't say anything about PvP in your original post.
Not only that, but you waltz on in like you're the god of EvE based shield knowledge with your comprehensive 6mil SP and tell newbies not to bother trying. The problem here is is that you detail so little info that some random newbie could read your post, assume that it is globally accurate and make their non-PvP decisions based on it.
I'm not the one standing here who thinks he knows everything. If anyone is waving an epeen around, it is you. I simply asked questions that could give some better insight as to what may be going on but you are the one that puffed out your chest and claimed that you are without fail.
because everything doesn't come down to what my fitting is. Not every answer in eve can be pinned down to how many SP you have either.
Logic is universal and not restricted only to eve endevors, and all it takes is to list out the minmatari ships that very few fly because there is an infinitely better alternative and if you show up in those ships people will only laugh and ask you why you aren't flying X instead....and then realize that list of ships includes all the shield tankers except the command ships.
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Cleerly
Amarr
Advance Naval Guard
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Posted - 2009.03.30 19:27:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly
Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 30/03/2009 18:44:55
Originally by: digital0verdose
Well then, since you are infallible on this topic, CCP must be screwing with you since I can go look at the Ships and Modules forums and BattleClinic loadouts for the Hurricane and see numerous posts and highly recommended fits recommending shield tanking.
The conclusion at this point is either you are doing something wrong or they are all idiots and when I see someone with an ! for a picture, especially one that is telling newbies what not to do when Vets recommend the opposite, I am going to assume the issue is you.
are you sure you aren't going to bowlclinic, because on battleclinic there aren't any shield tanking cane fits that are for pvp that don't say "this is obviously inferior to the armor tank versions on here but i wanted to see if it was at least possible to fit" followed by a ton of thumb downs.
How am I doing something wrong, I'm not using my fits, I'm not using my skills. You narrow minded plebeian. As I said several times it has nothing to do with the fit, but all you forum warriors on here immediately respond with "well you fit must suck" to every single post as if your one of those dolls with the pull string in the back.
And to add to you obvious idiocy, what vets recommend shield tanking over armor, it is a given around here that almost everyone armor tanks because it's common knowledge that it's superior; I was only offing a reasoning WHY it is superior.
So how about you get your head extracted from your arse and think before you wave your epeen.
digital0verdose if very helpful to a lot of people in this topic, and you are, well, kind of arrogant. 
Sigs are cool. |
Grista
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Posted - 2009.03.30 19:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly
This proves my point further. If you add the Hurricane to the list of ships not to shield tank (because despite how much we wish the cane could shield tank, when you armor tank it you end up with the same ship, only better in every regard) you have a list of the best non-command minmatari ships.
Yes there are all those shield tank ships, but they are also the ones that everyone says not to fly because they are inferior in design to the others.
Who is this "everyone"? If you're reading this stuff on Battleclinic or even SHC, you have to realize that most of those posts are people pulling numbers from EFT, and not flying in actual combat.
Sabre - best interdictor (check prices)
Vagabond - hands down best HAC in game, even post-speed nerf
Scimitar - not best POS-recharger, but certainly preferred for small gang pvp logistics over the Basilisk
Rapier - still the best overall recon (Falcon is special case, since it usually has no point and no offensive weapons)
You miss the big reason why people (who aren't idiots) don't armor tank a Vagabond - it's all about maneuverability in pvp - especially in smaller, roaming gangs. It's why people shield buffer tank Zealots, Sacriledges, and even Ishtars. The reason I shield tank a Hurricane for a lot of the pvp I do in that ship is I can make it go over 1K / sec. I can't do that with a 1600mm RT plate on it. If I start taking too much damage, I align and warp out.
Another thing your "everybody" people probably don't understand is that in large fleets, almost no one has an active tank anyhow. No tank is good enough when 20 other HACs / Battleships have you called primary. 20-30 BS kill carriers for god's sake. People buffer tank - they add Shield Extenders and Armor Plates (and CDFE's and Trimarks), and active hardeners, EANMs, and Damage Controls, and they don't bother fitting reps. When they get primaried, they warp out and get repped by friendly logistics and carriers, and then warp back into the fight. If you have an extra tanking slot, you're almost always better fitting more buffer/resists/gank on it than a booster or armor rep.
In factional warfare, your mileage may vary. Maybe there are experts flying armor tanking, sniping Vagabonds there. My experience is limited to 3 years of 0.0 combat from small roaming gangs to being in fights with over 600 on grid at the same time.
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Heimdal Galplen
Minmatar
Clown Punchers.
Clown Punchers Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.03.30 19:31:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Heimdal Galplen on 30/03/2009 19:31:42
? Broadsword, Vaga and both recons are effective and oft-seen matari ships that shield tank.
Please learn a bit about the game before launching into nerd rage
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Tai Paktu
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.03.30 19:52:00 -
[13]
So... about those Minmatar.
The design focus on the entire line of Minmatar ships is split. Split weapons. Split tanks. They're very versatile and in the hands oh a well skilled pilot (both SP and player skill) they can do great things. They can hard to handle in PvP fresh out of the gates (exceptions obviously existing). That's their design focus. If you don't like them, maybe you should train something a bit more purist.
Have you tried shield tanking with Caldari?
Come back when you're ready to listen to advice and not take everything as a troll.
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Tranka Verrane
Public Venture Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.03.30 19:59:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Tranka Verrane on 30/03/2009 20:00:43
All of the acknowledged best tanks in the game are shield tanks (if someone can prove me wrong please do so, I would love to find a good armor tank that matches my Nighthawk). There is no way that the best possible armor tank can match up to the best possible shield tank. However shield tanks use up your midslots which are vital for PVP. Also some ships have a bonus for armor tanking, therefore they will be acknowledging it is worse because they are fighting.
To say that shield tanks are always inferior to armor tanks is an absurd assertion, even for minmatar ships. Chat to me ingame or join channel 'Mentors' and someone will help you with a fit.
Ingame: Channels&Mailing lists>Channels>Join>PVE>OK |
Rogue Lilly
Caldari
Lords Of Filth
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Posted - 2009.03.30 20:04:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Tai Paktu
So... about those Minmatar.
The design focus on the entire line of Minmatar ships is split. Split weapons. Split tanks. They're very versatile and in the hands oh a well skilled pilot (both SP and player skill) they can do great things. They can hard to handle in PvP fresh out of the gates (exceptions obviously existing). That's their design focus. If you don't like them, maybe you should train something a bit more purist.
Have you tried shield tanking with Caldari?
Come back when you're ready to listen to advice and not take everything as a troll.
taking advice is exactly what I'm doing. Every fit I've tried posting with a shield tank, every forum post where I asked for help finding a mini ship to shield tank, every single thread I've read through trying to find a way has come back with a landslide of the advice being either "don't fly that ship, it's inferior to X in every way, which is an armor tank." or "fly a command ship."
when I go into forums talking about shield tanking mini ships everyone including the veterans are so ready to jump all over it and condemn it with good reason, but then when you post the opposite they jump in and disagree. So the only conclusion is that you guys just like to argue for the sake of argument.
Well until 6 months from now when I can fly a command ship it seems the only option is armor tanking.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar
Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.03.30 20:24:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly
WHICH FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE INCAPABLE OF READING MY ORIGINAL POST. Is that the ships designed to shield tank are usally the lower tier of your options and if you ask anyone why that ship sucks they will answer "because it's the first cruiser not the second" or so on.
Seriously, you're just whining. I've never armour tanked a Minmatar ship.
The Cyclone is perfectly fine ship, I've flown one for almost a year and even did level 4s in it (carefully).
The Maelstrom is the Tier 3 battleship and a shield tanker.
The Rifter can fit a decent passive shield tank (despite everyone thinking it should be armour tanked).
That leaves what, cruisers?
The Stabber has it's role, tanking is not all that ships need to do 
FREE! jumpclone service - NOW 192 locations! |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.03.30 20:25:00 -
[17]
Higher tier ships mostly have better tanks and dps. Using a shield tank instead of armor allows you to fit for more dps and speed/maneuverability. So your lack of tank is made up by an increase in speed (which is also a form of tanking).
A shield tanked Cane for pvp will do more damage and will be a lot faster, more of a gank fit. Adding plates to a ship slows it down, so a shield buffer tanked ship will be a LOT faster and a LOT more agile, which means it has more options to engage and disengage.
The usefulness or 'quality' of a ship is NOT measured in Raw/theoritical tanking numbers.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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Eschiava Q
Minmatar
Blood Money Bootcamp
Blood Money Cartel
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Posted - 2009.03.30 20:41:00 -
[18]
Personally, I would not want to shield tank a rupture, that wouldn't fit my play style.
But, once I attacked a shield tanked rupture flown by a month old character that was able to tank my Wolf assault frigate easily. It was not until I called in a friend that we were able to break him.
It just goes to show, there are a lot of different fittings possible for a given ship, and they shouldn't be dismissed based on someone elses say so alone. What won't work for one, may be a perfect setup for another.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.03.30 21:28:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly
Logic is universal and not restricted only to eve endevors...
Logic is informed by facts. Facts which you seem to lack.
Shield tanking has a variety of benefits. Overall it is a stronger tank than armor. As noted above the strongest tanks in the game are shield tanks, not armor tanks. Also, shield reppers rep at the beginning of a cycle and not the end. Trust me that matters. Add in that you can use an XL shield booster...there is no equivalent for armor reppers. Shields also self-repair over time, armor doesn't. Indeed the Drake can have a positively nuts passive shield recharge setup such that it beats an active setup...all for ZERO cap use. Finally, you can put things like Shield Power Relays and Shield Flux Coils in low slots to benefit the shield tank. There are no mid-slot items that benefit an armor tank.
On the downside active shield tanks are very cap hungry. Armor reps for less but is more efficient with your cap. They also use up valuable mid-slots which you may want to use for tackle stuff (but then EVE is all about tradeoffs).
In short shield tanking is alive and well. Whether you want to do it or not is situationally dependent as well as dependent on the particular ship you are using.
--------------------------------------------------
"Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.30 21:44:00 -
[20]
Quote:
For example in the mini cruiser line you have the stabber and the rupture. The stabber is supposedly the shield version but in every single aspect is outperformed by the rupture except in speed due to the ship bonus. Oh but wait even the stabber can tank better with armor than if it was fit with shields because after the MWD/WD you are left with 1 mid and 3 low slots....sounds like an armor tank option to me.
One, the stabber is mostly about speed. You're not going to be fitting a heavy tank on the thing anyway. Two, while a MWD/AB is necessary for a ship that relies on speed... you don't need a WD unless you're solo.
Also, you can shield or armor tank the Stabber, same as many matar ships.
Quote:
Then there are the battlecruisers. The cyclone is the shield tank and the hurricane the armor obviously. But in every single aspect the hurricane outdoes the cyclone because it's a "teir 2" battlecruiser. I have battleship 3 but from everything i've read and the numbers I've looked at the ships lay out about the same there too with the shield tanks being all together inferior.
In most cases tier 1 battlecruisers are overall less useful than the tier 2 varieties (Partly balanced by the fact that T1 BC are ~19 mil and T2 are ~34 mil). Has nothing to do with shield tank vs armor tank. But since you insist on making it, I'd like to point out that the Cyclone can fit an active shield tank that FAR outstrips what the Cane can do.
Quote:
So basically if you choose to shield tank you are relegated to picking the inferior ship instead of a ship that is on equal footing while only being designed to fly and fit differently.
Of course. No one flies the Jaguar in PVP, for example
Hint to new players: generally any epic whine posted on the newbie forums about some game balance issue can be dismissed as utter bull****. Shield tanking is admittedly a disadvantage for SOLO PVP...but that's about it. In groups, shield tanking is just as good.
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CCP Mitnal
C C P
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Posted - 2009.03.30 22:11:00 -
[21]
Moved to Ships & Modules.
Mitnal
Community Representative
CCP Hf, EVE Online
Contact us |
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente
Buffalo Soldiers
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Posted - 2009.03.30 22:29:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly
How am I doing something wrong
You have a conclusion you favor for some reason, and are now trying to fit the data to it.
Is there anything else I can help you with?
-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then --
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TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.03.30 22:30:00 -
[23]
LSEII buffers seem very viable. Two is a bit more HP than a 1600.
Active shield tanks seem to be able to burst tank an obnoxious amount of damage too, especially with oversized boosters.
I dunno if it's better or worse because both approaches have their trade-offs (align time, speed, sig radius, tackle mods, damage mods) but I think you're dead wrong to say shields are worthless.
They're an option.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
PuPPet MasTers
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Posted - 2009.03.30 22:40:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly
I've trained all of my shield tanking skills to 4 or 5. And now I'm irritated that they are pretty useless. On top of the fact that it takes twice as many skills and twice as long to learn shield tanking as it does to armor tanking.
This is a false statement. By and large, the shield compensations don't help you, and the armor compensations do. There's a million SP that's required in armor tanking that isn't in shield tanking. :)
Quote:
I've tried and tried to find a ship to shield tank in the minmatari line and always come up with the same conclusion; any given shield tanked ship can be outperformed in all regards by a ship of equal class armor tanked.
This is also not true, there's plenty of ships that are shield tanked Matari ships that are more than passable. Jag, Cyclone, Stabber, Vaga, Maelstrom, Vargur (sigh, be alot better with enough grid for some arties), Hurricane (at times), etc.
Quote:
It comes down to the fact that in a given class there are multiple ships of varying "tiers." not T1/T2, but the tiers in regard to having skill cruiser 2 or cruiser 3 for example. In a class the ships should be different, not better or worse. It should be a give and take without one clearly being superior in every way to the other. This way you have choices instead of "I can fly this one with cruiser 2 or wait 3 hours until i get cruiser 3 and fly another ship that is all around better in every possible aspect."
Actually, the Stabber/Rupture are *different ships*, with different roles. They're as different as the Crackle/Moa and the Vexor/Thorax. :)
Quote:
As a warning to any players newer than myself, don't bother training shields unless you are caldari, even though in all the text it says "minmitar ships shield or armor tank." It's bull and all you will do is waste your time until CCP realized that 90% of their ships aren't flown because they're made completely inferior instead of just "different"
Um, ya, about that. You're wrong, and what you've done is take a conclusion and fit "facts" to it. I suppose you'd try to tell us that CCP has "given up on drones" too - afterall the Vexor is Tier 2, and the Domi tier 1.....
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Warrio
Southern Cross Incorporated
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.30 22:43:00 -
[25]
Plenty of ships shield tank fine in PvP.
The problem I've found is that most players regard "shield tanking" and "armour tanking" as requiring a shield booster or an armour repper. This is not the case since 1 LSE counts as a shield tank.
With that in mind almost every nano fit calls for some sort of shield tank including the Vaga, Curse, Nano-Drake, any nano-T1 cruiser, Rapier, Huggin, Arazu, Lachesis, Cyclone, Nanobinger (sometimes) and the list goes on depending on what you feel like nanoing.
sXe |
Benco97
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 22:51:00 -
[26]
I have absolutely no experience with active shield tanks (You know, with those crass booster thingies) but I know from first-hand experience that a good passive shield tank can make a grown man cry.
There are ships which excel at shields in every size class, even frigates but what you have to consider is that Shield tanking and Armour tanking have different pros and cons. It seems to me like your playstyle is a very straightforward "Lotsa' guns 'n' lots a health" affair, this sort of tactic lends itself more to armour tanking I'd say.
As such I'd put it down to a simple case of pebcak.
Originally by: P'uck
You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
|
Ghoest
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 23:00:00 -
[27]
I have every shield tanking skill maxed except the passive resists and and the useless on that stops bleed through.
It doesnt suck. There are times for armor and times for shields.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
|
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 23:14:00 -
[28]
Let's see, I've got max skills for sub-capital shield tanking (and all-IV or better in capital) including the mindlink, so I think I know a bit about shield tanking. And guess what, OP: you're an idiot. If you can't make shield tanks work in PvP, especially as a Minmatar player, you aren't even trying.
Here's a hint: once you understand that 3x damage mods are just as mandatory as MWD/point, the slot balance looks a lot better.
Here's another hint: this is how to properly fit a Hurricane:
[Hurricane, New Setup 1]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Warp Disruptor II
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Torrent Assault Missile
Skirmish Warfare Link - Rapid Deployment
Projectile Ambit Extension I
Projectile Ambit Extension I
Projectile Ambit Extension I
Hammerhead II x1
Hobgoblin II x4
Notice how the combination of nanos + shield tank makes you faster than cruisers.
-----------
|
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 23:34:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 30/03/2009 23:33:51
Here is a hint: Shields kick ass :).
You just fail at getting them to work.
|
Impolite Andevil
The Shadow Knights
Bionic Dawn
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 23:51:00 -
[30]
One other important point to consider: Most of the really good minmatar PvP ships are tech 2 ships, and with 6 mil skill points... Stick to the stabber and the rupture. Both of which are excellent ships, by the way. You are basing your understanding of the entire mechanic of shield tanking on very little experience, fairly crappy skills (yes, your 800k points is pretty crappy), and only the tech 1 ships, which don't even scratch the surface of minamtar PvP options. Go hop in a stabber, learn to fit it and fly it as it should be done (LSE buffer tank, speed, and autocannons for a heavy tackler), and then decide if shield tanks are broken or useless...
|
Jarod Leercap
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 23:54:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly
WHICH FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE INCAPABLE OF READING MY ORIGINAL POST. Is that the ships designed to shield tank are usally the lower tier of your options and if you ask anyone why that ship sucks they will answer "because it's the first cruiser not the second" or so on.
I think there are two main points others here are trying to get at.
(1) What are you trying to do? If what you're trying to tackle, than it can be advantageous to armor tank rather than shield tank because the tackling modules take up the slots you need for shield tanking. If you're trying to do lots of damage, then shield tanking may be better because damage mods require the low slots you need to armor tank. If you're trying to do both, then you probably need to accept that your tank is going to be weaker than you might otherwise prefer.
(2) Do you want a better tank or a better ship? Armor tanking may in cases lead to a hardier ship. But that doesn't buy anything if the ship is out-ranged by its opponents and isn't fast enough to close the gap.
I'd say the biggest unanswered questions I'm left with from your post is whether you're trying to active tank or passive tank. In general, I'd say that armor is better for active tanking and shields are better for passive tanking. Armor is probably better at hybrid tanking...but that tends to be most applicable to missions.
Below the battleship level, there are a lot of benefits to passive shield tanking for Minmatar, especially for PVP.
(1) It provides good buffer without slowing down the ship. This is extremely important, since speed is one of the things Minmatar ships have going for them.
(2) It requires far less cap use than active tanking, and the Minmatar boats frequently have smaller caps than those of other factions. This is offset by the low or zero cap draw of their weapon systems, but a smaller cap is still a smaller cap.
(3) It has lower fitting requirements than passive armor tanking. The largest shield extenders take only 150 grid, as opposed to 250 grid for the armor plating that gives the same amount of HP.
(4) More available grid means it's a lot easier to fit a neutralizer, which will do great things for you in a fight. Neutralizers do evil things to active tanks and to those who need cap to fire their guns.
(5) While you will generally have fewer mid-slots available than low slots, there are modules that improve shield regen and take low slots. There isn't anything you can put in a mid slot to improve a passive armor tank.
There are only two benefits passive armor tanks offer over passive shield tanks:
(1) They require no cap. A larger shield tank should be running an Invul, and Invul's require about half the cap that an active repair unit would. Thus, if it's zero cap to zero cap, the passive armor tank may have its boosted resists while the shield shield tank will have lost most of its resists. However, the shield tank will still have the regen that the armor tank is lacking, and many of the ships best given to armor tanking have primary weapons systems that require cap to fire.
(2) In some cases, passive armor tanks will have more slots available to tank with. This is offset by some of the low slot modules that improve shield regen, but it makes a difference in some cases.
(3) There is a hole at the battleship level. The best shield extenders match the HP gain of 800mm plate. There is no shield extending counterpart to 1600mm plate.
If I were to make some complaints, though, they'd be these:
(1) Something should be done to improve active shield tanking. Perhaps a low-slot boost amp (even if weaker)?
(2) Until active shield tanking is improved, ships with bonuses to it will have a potentially low-utility bonus. The Tier 2 Minmatar BC comes to mind.
(3) It'd be nice to have a shield extender sized to match 1600mm plate.
|
Caffeine Junkie
Atomic Battle Penguins
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 23:56:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Caffeine Junkie on 30/03/2009 23:56:10
Originally by: Rogue Lilly
Then there are the battlecruisers. The cyclone is the shield tank and the hurricane the armor obviously. But in every single aspect the hurricane outdoes the cyclone because it's a "teir 2" battlecruiser. I have battleship 3 but from everything i've read and the numbers I've looked at the ships lay out about the same there too with the shield tanks being all together inferior.
So basically if you choose to shield tank you are relegated to picking the inferior ship instead of a ship that is on equal footing while only being designed to fly and fit differently.
I have 4 times the sp in shield skills as I do in armor skills and I can still tank incredibly better with armor than shields.
Shield Tanking can be extremely effective however:
1.) Armour Tanked ships are more popular because they leave mids free for tackle, mwd + cap injector.
2.) There is considerably more you can do to increase the strength of an active-shield tank, compared to active armour.
3.) Most PvP ships are buffer tanked (effective HP) and armour does this much better.
4.) Active Shield tanking requires a lot more SP than armour and often a lot more isk too, but when setup right an shield tanked ship can be far more effective:
Nightmare
Vargur
Maelstrom
Raven / CNR
+ Crystals = Win.
|
Waxau
Mortis Angelus
The Church.
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 00:02:00 -
[33]
ANGRAAY POAST.
Lilly - Tell you what, ill refer to your first post, nothing else.
Yes, that is a whine. And no, the reasoning isnt valid.
You're a noob. Not in a 'omg you noob' way, but in terms of only 6 mil SP, of which a fraction is spent in tanking.
Tbh, i cant even be arsed to post a response, as (as others here will agree with)....converting arrogant newbies is like pulling teeth. Except there isnt a paid profession for it. So, excuse me whilst i leave you to emorage.
o/
|
McDaddy Pimp
Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 00:08:00 -
[34]
Edited by: McDaddy Pimp on 31/03/2009 00:09:57
lol the troll is strong in this one.
replying for other readers, not OP
PVP ships
-HAM Drake: 500+ dps, 100k EHP, best solo BC imo
-Hurricane: 700+dps, 1200m/s, always get on top of the KMs with this
-Vagabond: 400dps, 3km/s,
-Buffer Gank Raven: 900dps, 120k EHP (no point though), better then most ppl think, think of a geddon without cap usage
-Neut Rokh: just slightly worst then neut domi, but with more tank
-Mealstrom: with Crystals tank up to 1500dps (I myself actually is saving up for LG Crystals, so havent flown a 1500dps Mael myself, but...
-Faught a shield tank Hyperion (he said he had crystals and deal 1200dps), he melted an Astarte in a 2v1, my Drake ran away 
-Also the obvious ships that but i cant speak from personal experience: Slepnir, Nighthawk, Caldari capitals etc
PVE
-Myrmidon : Perfect low level w-space gas miner
-Domi : i heard its good, nvr flown it myself
-Istar: same as above
-Drake and Raven: obviously
Every type of tanking have its place, just dont want newbies reading OP and ignore shield tanking for good.
|
Caffeine Junkie
Atomic Battle Penguins
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 00:39:00 -
[35]
Originally by: McDaddy Pimp
-Fought a shield tank Hyperion (he said he had crystals and deal 1200dps), he melted an Astarte in a 2v1, my Drake ran away
I have seen this and yes it is evil.
Caldari Shield Tanked capitals out tank all other caps, period.
|
Mara Rinn
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 00:43:00 -
[36]
Dear Rogue Lilly,
I've trained all of my shield tanking skills to 4 or 5. No no, I mean all, including damage-specific shield compensation. I passive tank level 4 missions in a T2 fit nano Drake (no officer mods, everything except ammo is T2, and the ammo is regular T1 stuff 'cos I'm a cheapskate).
Now, let me tell you something you're totally missing: the Drake is built to tank, and that's it. Caldari ships - as a general rule - are shield tankers which specialise in long range combat. Gallente ships - as a general rule - are armour tankers specialising in short range and/or drone-based combat. Amarr ships - as a general rule - are long range armour tankers.
Minmatar ships are "versatile". This is secret in-game code for, "sucks in every way until you have twice as many SP as the next guy."
So when you come to the forums and complain that Minmatar ships cannot shield tank, we laugh at you because no, they cannot shield tank. Nor can they armour tank. But they can fly fast, and they pew pew with guns or missiles.
You see, you're missing the big picture here. The big picture, in little words, is this: you don't pick a ship just because it tanks the way you want to tank. You pick a ship for a combination of weapon systems, tanking style, speed, manoeuvrability, damage dealing capacity, and (most importantly) looks.
So you could, for example, pack a Hurricane full of LSEIIs, shield hardeners, shield power relays and rechargers. You'd have one heck of a tank there. But you'd do no damage to anyone, since your guns would have no stabilisers, no tracking improvements, and you wouldn't be able to keep up with your targets (much less close to autocannon range).
You could armour tank your hurricane, at which point you have a bunch of mids free for tackle. But again, you'll end up failing in the DPS race.
Then you need to take into account that there are four tanking styles: shield, armour, speed and presence. Well, there's a fifth style called "honor tank" but that doesn't stop you losing ships.
So the knowledgeable player would fit a moderate shield tank, a bunch of autocannon-oriented mods in the lows, maybe a nano and afterburner, and rely on picking the right targets to shoot at, and the right targets to run away from.
Just remember - shield tank competes with tackle, armour tank competes with damage/speed mods. Therefore picking Minmatar ships (the "versatile" designs) on which to base your complaint that shield tanking is useless, is kinda like complaining that your Ferrari F40 can't tow your caravan.
Oh, and maybe consider reading the new players' tanking guide.
|
Lego Maniac
Minmatar
Dusty Death Enterprise
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 01:14:00 -
[37]
my theory is that the OP is a troll who just got owned by someone who was passive tanked
|
Ris Dnalor
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 03:48:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Seriously, you're just whining. I've never armour tanked a Minmatar ship.
Really?
You've never flown a plate-buffered rupture?
Really?
Edit: yea, ok, I know it's off topic... but really?
|
Blutomus Maximus
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 04:22:00 -
[39]
The shield buffer tank is very effective in pvp, especially if you can get the resists up a bit too. Quite a few ships out there that would normally be considered armor tankers often resort to the shield tank as well. The minmatar shield buffer tank was admittedly a whole lot better before the anti-speed sledge hammer hit it, but it still works, and hundreds of dollars in subscription fees, and thousands of hours of cross training later, CCP will eventually nerf everything else and minnies will be happy again.
http://www.ezy-english.com/ |
Tolsimir Wolfblood
Esto Perpetua
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 04:47:00 -
[40]
RWARRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!
I'm mad b/c capital armor repps get 9700 per rep cycle and they have skills to decrease the cycle time by 5% per level and the cap skill gives it 5% reduction in cycle time  . The capital shield repps only get 7200 per rep cycle and a skill that reduces the repps need for cap by 2% and the capital skill gives it a 2% reduction to cap need for reppers. I think it should 5% instead of 2% b/c then my dread would be cap stable !!!!!!
Oh wait I get a natural shield regen and boost amps so I'm happy
|
Foulque
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 05:43:00 -
[41]
Tissue?
________
|
Clueless Alt
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 06:04:00 -
[42]
Cyclone sleipnir maelstrom.
nuff!
|
Yalezorn
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 06:07:00 -
[43]
Hasn't every tanking related post I've seen lately including a disclaimer that shield tanking absorbs more than armor tanking, but armor is easier to set up?
|
Alva Noto
the united
Negative Ten.
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 06:12:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Alva Noto on 31/03/2009 06:15:42
tldr
however i can confirm the hurricane kixass at shieldtanking in pve
just get the skills and guns & ammo man
mids if i recall correct: in 0.0 ratting 1 mwd and 3 lse
lows are gyros and shield rechargers
shield purgers I
full rack of guns
you can rat any rat with that hehe
edit: i somehow missed merins poast, but that seems right, if OP is serious he should look into that fit imho imhoimhoimho
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Lexa Hellfury
Oedipus Complex
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 06:37:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly
Tactical Shield Manipulation
level 2
Clearly the OP is in a unique position to pass judgment on all things shield tanky.
|
Helo Adoniis
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 07:03:00 -
[46]
Shield tanking is worse than armor tanking BECAUSE OF FALCON!!!1
|
Psiri
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 08:21:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Psiri on 31/03/2009 08:21:25
If OP complained about active shield tanking on medium to large ships as far as PvP concerned then I could somewhat relate to his ranting. It's tricky to fit a full tackle with a proper active shield tank and in gangs where you don't need to fit the tackle many would prefer a full buffer-tank. It can still work just fine though.
Shield tanking does have its destinct advantages, try using them.
|
Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 08:40:00 -
[48]
Also worth mentioning that in PVE at least shield tanking means you have a bit of resisted armour buffer while you try and GTFO if your shield tank fails. If your armor tank fails and you've got no Damage Control, well... you're up the proverbial brown creek without a paddle.
|
Brodde Dim
Hyper-Nova
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 08:56:00 -
[49]
Also, Broadsword.
(since nobody mentioned it yet(unless I missed it)).
|
GyokZoli
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 09:21:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly
Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 30/03/2009 17:57:41
Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 30/03/2009 17:56:25
Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 30/03/2009 17:55:32
*edit*
yes this is a wordy post, ideas are better conveyed in sentences rather than "ME is good, 3L2P-R CC L33T biotch" language. yes this is a whine, i am unhappy, the reasoning is valid, therefore irritation is a natural result.
I've trained all of my shield tanking skills to 4 or 5. And now I'm irritated that they are pretty useless. On top of the fact that it takes twice as many skills and twice as long to learn shield tanking as it does to armor tanking.
I've tried and tried to find a ship to shield tank in the minmatari line and always come up with the same conclusion; any given shield tanked ship can be outperformed in all regards by a ship of equal class armor tanked.
It comes down to the fact that in a given class there are multiple ships of varying "tiers." not T1/T2, but the tiers in regard to having skill cruiser 2 or cruiser 3 for example. In a class the ships should be different, not better or worse. It should be a give and take without one clearly being superior in every way to the other. This way you have choices instead of "I can fly this one with cruiser 2 or wait 3 hours until i get cruiser 3 and fly another ship that is all around better in every possible aspect."
For example in the mini cruiser line you have the stabber and the rupture. The stabber is supposedly the shield version but in every single aspect is outperformed by the rupture except in speed due to the ship bonus. Oh but wait even the stabber can tank better with armor than if it was fit with shields because after the MWD/WD you are left with 1 mid and 3 low slots....sounds like an armor tank option to me.
Then there are the battlecruisers. The cyclone is the shield tank and the hurricane the armor obviously. But in every single aspect the hurricane outdoes the cyclone because it's a "teir 2" battlecruiser. I have battleship 3 but from everything i've read and the numbers I've looked at the ships lay out about the same there too with the shield tanks being all together inferior.
So basically if you choose to shield tank you are relegated to picking the inferior ship instead of a ship that is on equal footing while only being designed to fly and fit differently.
I have 4 times the sp in shield skills as I do in armor skills and I can still tank incredibly better with armor than shields.
As a warning to any players newer than myself, don't bother training shields unless you are caldari, even though in all the text it says "minmitar ships shield or armor tank."
It's bull and all you will do is waste your time until CCP realized that 90% of their ships aren't flown because they're made completely inferior instead of just "different"
*edited my title to better relay my annoyance*
Just for the lolfactor:
[Hurricane, passive shield godness]
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger I
Core Defence Field Purger I
Core Defence Field Purger I
It can tank 5-600 omni DPS.
|
Uzbeg Khan
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 10:30:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
This is also not true, there's plenty of ships that are shield tanked Matari ships that are more than passable. Jag, Cyclone, Stabber, Vaga, Maelstrom, Vargur (sigh, be alot better with enough grid for some arties), Hurricane (at times), etc.
-Liang
Stop the QQ about not being able to fit arties to the Vargur. 800's are awesome on that boat.
|
Tykkis
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 12:33:00 -
[52]
reasons why armor tanking is better than shields.
-remote repping
-3 races ships armor tank but only 2 shield tank (most ships are better as armor tankers). so armor tanking is more commonly known by pilots ->remote rep
-all ships can make armor tank for but most can't make shield tank. ->remote rep
-thermal is most common dmg type (gallente drones do most dmg, so many gallente players and lasers so common at fleets). armor has better resist for it.
-midslot utility modules are better than tank modules sometimes. some are mandatory. MWD/AB, Scram/Disruptor, SB, TC, TD/ECM/Damp
-armor tanking takes less SP
Not all of those are big advantages, they are many and i didn't even catch em all.
Personally i think shield tanking is more scifi so i'd like things to be the opposite.
|
Holy Lowlander
Lone Star Joint Venture
Wildly Inappropriate.
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 13:17:00 -
[53]
sorry mate its simply not true. Shield tanks aren't inferior to amor tanks , when it comes to active tanking shield tanks heavily outclass amor tanks.
When your talking about battlecruisers or even cruisers you get the passive shield tanking wich is [borat] Very Nice ! [/borat] Because you get increased effective hitpoints and a good active tank.
Do your math and you'll see that the only 'problem' with shield tankers is that its harder to get large EHP on battleship levels and that it uses medslots so tackeling is harder. But in return for that you can use *all* your lowslots for damage mods , wich is ****ing evil.
they stole my sig :'( |
Happster
Polaris Project
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 14:22:00 -
[54]
To OP:
If you compare armor tank vs shield tank you will come out better tank wise as shield tanker.
Espesially if you consider the extra struff.
T2 tank vs T2 tank i think is pretty much the same.
But if you add faction and implants, shield tank beat armor tank by far.....
|
Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 15:32:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly
Tactical Shield Manipulation
level 2
Come back when you can actually use Tech 2 Shield Hardeners. If you can't even use those yet then you haven't even fit a real shield tank so you likely don't have much of a clue what you're talking about.
Have you honestly tried to shield tank a Maelstrom and not found it useful? How about a passive shield regen 'Phoon?
Have you flown any of the Minmatar T2 lineup? Their base shield resists are, to put it bluntly, amazing and often times all you need to do to get a very nice shield buffer is slap on an extender.
Are more Minmatar ships naturally disposed to armor tanking? Yes. Does that mean that you should not train shield tanking skills for the few ships that they do have that do it really, really well? Heck no.
Minmatar have always been very skill intensive; they require good gunnery, missile, and drone skills, they require shield and armor tanking, and they get the most benefit from good navigation training. Suck it up and keep on training.
--------------------
"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar
Black Serpent Technologies
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 15:34:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly
Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 30/03/2009 17:57:41
Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 30/03/2009 17:56:25
Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 30/03/2009 17:55:32
*edit*
yes this is a wordy post, ideas are better conveyed in sentences rather than "ME is good, 3L2P-R CC L33T biotch" language. yes this is a whine, i am unhappy, the reasoning is valid, therefore irritation is a natural result.
I've trained all of my shield tanking skills to 4 or 5. And now I'm irritated that they are pretty useless. On top of the fact that it takes twice as many skills and twice as long to learn shield tanking as it does to armor tanking.
I've tried and tried to find a ship to shield tank in the minmatari line and always come up with the same conclusion; any given shield tanked ship can be outperformed in all regards by a ship of equal class armor tanked.
It comes down to the fact that in a given class there are multiple ships of varying "tiers." not T1/T2, but the tiers in regard to having skill cruiser 2 or cruiser 3 for example. In a class the ships should be different, not better or worse. It should be a give and take without one clearly being superior in every way to the other. This way you have choices instead of "I can fly this one with cruiser 2 or wait 3 hours until i get cruiser 3 and fly another ship that is all around better in every possible aspect."
For example in the mini cruiser line you have the stabber and the rupture. The stabber is supposedly the shield version but in every single aspect is outperformed by the rupture except in speed due to the ship bonus. Oh but wait even the stabber can tank better with armor than if it was fit with shields because after the MWD/WD you are left with 1 mid and 3 low slots....sounds like an armor tank option to me.
Then there are the battlecruisers. The cyclone is the shield tank and the hurricane the armor obviously. But in every single aspect the hurricane outdoes the cyclone because it's a "teir 2" battlecruiser. I have battleship 3 but from everything i've read and the numbers I've looked at the ships lay out about the same there too with the shield tanks being all together inferior.
So basically if you choose to shield tank you are relegated to picking the inferior ship instead of a ship that is on equal footing while only being designed to fly and fit differently.
I have 4 times the sp in shield skills as I do in armor skills and I can still tank incredibly better with armor than shields.
As a warning to any players newer than myself, don't bother training shields unless you are caldari, even though in all the text it says "minmitar ships shield or armor tank."
It's bull and all you will do is waste your time until CCP realized that 90% of their ships aren't flown because they're made completely inferior instead of just "different"
*edited my title to better relay my annoyance*
You forgot the Maelstrom. It is the BEST shield tanking battleship IN EVE.
gtfo
__________________________________________________
History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.. |
Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 16:28:00 -
[57]
Originally by: SFX Bladerunner
You forgot the Maelstrom. It is the BEST shield tanking battleship IN EVE.
Meh, Rokh is at least as good because of its shield resists but in terms of raw boosting power yer absolutely right.
Also, I'm assuming that you're refering to T1. Golem and Vargur shield tank better than a Maelstrom.
--------------------
"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Enden Assulu
Caldari
Blood Money Inc.
Blood Money Cartel
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 16:44:00 -
[58]
Haven't seen the OP around here for a while. Shame that really :(
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Rheed
We The People
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Posted - 2009.03.31 17:56:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly
...For example in the mini cruiser line you have the stabber and the rupture. The stabber is supposedly the shield version but in every single aspect is outperformed by the rupture except in speed due to the ship bonus. Oh but wait even the stabber can tank better with armor than if it was fit with shields because after the MWD/WD you are left with 1 mid and 3 low slots....sounds like an armor tank option to me.
Forced myself to read this until I got to this part and gave up... Please step away from the EFT and fly the ships as they were ment to be flown. You cannot compare a Stabber to a Rupture. Both have COMPLETELY different styles when it comes to piloting and combat.
Ruptures, in your face DPS, hard tank, just sit there and melt your targets.
Stabbers, fit for speed. Tank? just use a LSE to allow you to kill off drones, then just laugh as you orbit outside web range and slowly chew your target up.
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Look at me! I'm on the INTERNET!!! |
Trader20
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Posted - 2009.03.31 18:44:00 -
[60]
Have u ever shot at an xl booster tanked maelstrom....Good luck
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Out of Order
Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2009.03.31 19:01:00 -
[61]
If you are implying that my cyclone is fail, or that my shield buffered arty rupture is fail.....
Clearly you need more pvp.
It's purely situational, depends on what you want.
Cyclone is great as a fast moving, long range platform with it's large drone bay, shield tank (which give you PG space to fit arty's), and missile hard points.
I die less in a cyclone then a cane, why? Because it's faster (armor tanks are not nimble in any way.), it can hit from farther away and stay out of gun/web range, and it has a tanking bonus.
Mael has 8 freaking guns, that's alot of damage, and you have low slots to fit damage mods.
None of the minny shield tanked ships really have alot of room for ewar, but thats the case with most shield tanks.
Shield tanks have less mass as well for wormholes, another plus.
I have a ton of skills in both armor and shield tanking, i'm minnie so it's a necessary evil. There are a million ship set ups, don't get stuck in the "this ships sucks because I can't fit it XYZ way. My favorite gank rupture set up, which does 400+ dps, has a large shield extender as buffer. Paired with a jamming ship this thing is an absolute monster.
Stop, hammer time. |
fmercury
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.03.31 20:31:00 -
[62]
Edited by: fmercury on 31/03/2009 20:31:13
Active shield tanks are more efficient in terms of cap/hp than their armor equivalents. Shield boosters operate at the start of the cycle rather than at the end. Shield tanks have a higher peak hp/sec tanked than their armor equivalents. Passive shield tanking has a recharge, passive armor tanking has no such recharge.
There's more to the dichotomy than "Hurr, shield tanking hulls are worse than armor tanking hulls," even if it were true (It's not)
Hope this helps.
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Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.31 23:22:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly
Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 30/03/2009 18:44:55
Originally by: digital0verdose
Well then, since you are infallible on this topic, CCP must be screwing with you since I can go look at the Ships and Modules forums and BattleClinic loadouts for the Hurricane and see numerous posts and highly recommended fits recommending shield tanking.
The conclusion at this point is either you are doing something wrong or they are all idiots and when I see someone with an ! for a picture, especially one that is telling newbies what not to do when Vets recommend the opposite, I am going to assume the issue is you.
are you sure you aren't going to bowlclinic, because on battleclinic there aren't any shield tanking cane fits that are for pvp that don't say "this is obviously inferior to the armor tank versions on here but i wanted to see if it was at least possible to fit" followed by a ton of thumb downs.
How am I doing something wrong, I'm not using my fits, I'm not using my skills. You narrow minded plebeian. As I said several times it has nothing to do with the fit, but all you forum warriors on here immediately respond with "well you fit must suck" to every single post as if your one of those dolls with the pull string in the back.
And to add to you obvious idiocy, what vets recommend shield tanking over armor, it is a given around here that almost everyone armor tanks because it's common knowledge that it's superior; I was only offing a reasoning WHY it is superior.
So how about you get your head extracted from your arse and think before you wave your epeen.
Use T2 ships.
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Tara'Quoya Rax
Black-Sun
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Posted - 2009.03.31 23:52:00 -
[64]
Minmatar don't tank, Minmatar dodge. |
General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2009.04.01 00:20:00 -
[65]
I'm gallente and amarr spec and I just trained shield tanking skills for my ships, including the myrmidon because shield buffer + gank in lows >>>>>>> armor buffer. You have a few more mid slots to play with but thats of no interest in a gang situation really.
Got Cooch?, solo PvP movie
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Dasalt Istgut
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Posted - 2009.04.01 08:06:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Dasalt Istgut on 01/04/2009 08:10:09
Troll post. Btw, 800k SP isn't much. Shield tanking is fine.
The only time I think shield tanking is very bad is for remote rep BS gangs and that's only because enough of the people in the gang will be in ships you have no choice but to armor tank that you'll need to armor tank your shield tank ship anyway.
Active and passive shield tanks are both very strong, both for PVP and PVE.
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Raimo
Gallente
Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.04.01 11:11:00 -
[67]
Originally by: General Coochie
I'm gallente and amarr spec and I just trained shield tanking skills for my ships, including the myrmidon because shield buffer + gank in lows >>>>>>> armor buffer. You have a few more mid slots to play with but thats of no interest in a gang situation really.
Agreed. I love my shield Deimos in a gang with adequate tackle, The Brutix and Myrm can shieldgank really well as well.
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DWEr
Minmatar
UK Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.04.01 12:14:00 -
[68]
Edited by: DWEr on 01/04/2009 12:15:45
to the OP. firstly i'm not sure if your trolling, but you only have a Total SP: 6,314,448 when you get to 30mill sp and find your having issues then that is the time to complain.
i myself am purly pvp spec, focused on armor tanking. i have 120skills and 54mill sp. all those armor tank skills are lvl 5. i also have a second char that is purly a command ship focus'd char, shield tank ina vulture to be precise. all relevant skills at level 5 with 80 skills and 34mill sp.
from my expierence a shield tank is far superior than an armor tank when is comes to the total dps you can absorb, for mission running. then again you dont really need anything more than a 800dps tank when running lvl 4's. i have tried the minnie CS with centus-x reppers and harders and not managed to surpass that of Gist-X booster on my vulture when running a mission. perhaps i had a wrong setup but im pretty sure i have explored alot of setups, and the sheild tank is win.
when it comes to pvp its a mixed bag. i dont believe u can translate a mission running boat setup to a pvp setup...namly being cap stable running all your mods in a mission, as opposed engaged in pvp and dealing with nos and other annoyances, so you have to balance when you use modules and so forth. so imo go get more skills, and pvp expierence and then post here to complain 
just my two cents ;D
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The Tzar
Malicious Intentions
The Church.
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Posted - 2009.04.01 12:34:00 -
[69]
Shield tanking = faster ships, self-regenrating tank, space for damage/engineering/mobility mods, instantly boosted active tanking, better hardener in the shape of an invul.
Fail post.
__________________________________________
'Light travels faster than sound.
This is why some people appear intelligent
until they speak'
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.01 12:42:00 -
[70]
Quote:
i have tried the minnie CS with centus-x reppers
Yeah maybe you are doing something wrong when trying to armor tank the minnie CS
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Originally by: Neth'Rae
Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Seishomaru
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Posted - 2009.04.01 14:01:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly
Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 30/03/2009 18:44:55
Originally by: digital0verdose
Well then, since you are infallible on this topic, CCP must be screwing with you since I can go look at the Ships and Modules forums and BattleClinic loadouts for the Hurricane and see numerous posts and highly recommended fits recommending shield tanking.
The conclusion at this point is either you are doing something wrong or they are all idiots and when I see someone with an ! for a picture, especially one that is telling newbies what not to do when Vets recommend the opposite, I am going to assume the issue is you.
are you sure you aren't going to bowlclinic, because on battleclinic there aren't any shield tanking cane fits that are for pvp that don't say "this is obviously inferior to the armor tank versions on here but i wanted to see if it was at least possible to fit" followed by a ton of thumb downs.
How am I doing something wrong, I'm not using my fits, I'm not using my skills. You narrow minded plebeian. As I said several times it has nothing to do with the fit, but all you forum warriors on here immediately respond with "well you fit must suck" to every single post as if your one of those dolls with the pull string in the back.
And to add to you obvious idiocy, what vets recommend shield tanking over armor, it is a given around here that almost everyone armor tanks because it's common knowledge that it's superior; I was only offing a reasoning WHY it is superior.
So how about you get your head extracted from your arse and think before you wave your epeen.
Hurricane with 1 LSE II 1 MWD 1 INVul II 1 SensorB II
6 720mm II
2 damaeg mods 2 range mods 2 PDS....
Profit.....
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Omaku Toba
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2009.04.01 16:25:00 -
[72]
After reading all this I'm so confused. Seems the best option is just to train up shields and armor tanking skills to the max and fit whatever works best for a given ship and situation.
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Rogue Lilly
Caldari
Lords Of Filth
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Posted - 2009.04.01 17:15:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 01/04/2009 17:21:28
Originally by: Jarod Leercap
Very useful info
Thank you for responding in a well laid out manner and answering a lot of questions I've had.
I want to shield tank something that can generally survive in low sec space, be it running missions or defending myself against pirate attacks.
The problem I have is other than T2 command ships or battleships every ship I try to fit with a shield tank seems to have such horrible slot layout, lower cpu, lower powergrid, and in general will get spanked by the armor tanked ships.
No ship other than the bellicose and the cyclone seem to have more than 3 mid slots. The bellicose doesn't even have enough powergrid to fill all of it's slots even if I were to have all skills to V and every time i compair cyclone shield fittings against hurricane armor fittings the hurricane has better DPS, better EHP, and still has utility slots to spare.
Now to all of you who came in here for no purpose other than to flame me. I KNOW THAT THERE ARE TIERS IN EACH SHIP CLASS. THAT IS WHAT THIS IS ABOUT. perhaps being in all caps you will be able to read that this time, but most likely I will have to restate it about 10 more times because you refuse to argue the actual point here but instead argue the same point I'm trying to make like a fool.
It is a flaw that there are different tiers in each class because then one ship in each class is inherently better so if you happen to play a race who's tier 1 cruiser has bonuses to the type of modules you skill for and the tier 2 is the opposite you end up either with the inferior ship because your combat style preference is different or you are forced to take the obviously superior ship and fit some crazy set up that doesn't quite work.
That is my whole issue here and all of you who come in screaming "you dummy of course it's better it's a tier 2 ship" you are proving my point.
There would be a much broader variety of fittings and ships in space if the 4 cruisers of a race offered the same overall performance but were different in how they achieved it and what bonuses they received. instead of the current set up where you can fly this crap ship that nobody flies or the the better one that everyone flies because it's tier 2.
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Rogue Lilly
Caldari
Lords Of Filth
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Posted - 2009.04.01 17:25:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Impolite Andevil
One other important point to consider: Most of the really good minmatar PvP ships are tech 2 ships, and with 6 mil skill points... Stick to the stabber and the rupture. Both of which are excellent ships, by the way. You are basing your understanding of the entire mechanic of shield tanking on very little experience, fairly crappy skills (yes, your 800k points is pretty crappy), and only the tech 1 ships, which don't even scratch the surface of minamtar PvP options. Go hop in a stabber, learn to fit it and fly it as it should be done (LSE buffer tank, speed, and autocannons for a heavy tackler), and then decide if shield tanks are broken or useless...
I would but my stabber that has a whole 1 slot to fit a single LSE II will get blown to bits by any armor tanked rupture that dishes out a third more damage and has twice the EHP.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.01 17:31:00 -
[75]
But that stabber is far faster and can always run.
It is true that the better minnie t1 ships are the armor tanked ones in general (with some exceptions like maelstrom vs pest). But how did you get from that to CCP gave up on shield tanking?
And check the minnie t2 ships, basicly all of them are shield tanked. Vaga: shield tanked, muninn: not tanked. Scimi: shield tanked. Rapier/huginn: shield tanked. Command ships: shield tanked. Marauder: shield tanked. Black ops: not a clue.
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Originally by: Neth'Rae
Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Rogue Lilly
Caldari
Lords Of Filth
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Posted - 2009.04.01 17:44:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 01/04/2009 17:46:10
Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 01/04/2009 17:44:41
Originally by: Furb Killer
But that stabber is far faster and can always run.
It is true that the better minnie t1 ships are the armor tanked ones in general (with some exceptions like maelstrom vs pest). But how did you get from that to CCP gave up on shield tanking?
And check the minnie t2 ships, basicly all of them are shield tanked. Vaga: shield tanked, muninn: not tanked. Scimi: shield tanked. Rapier/huginn: shield tanked. Command ships: shield tanked. Marauder: shield tanked. Black ops: not a clue.
Which is exactly where my point comes from. I prefer to shield tank, it just feels more right to me. I don't want to have to wait 5 months when i can fly a command ship before I can really start getting ships that are built to shield tank.
Ok, lets go over this again, tier (not tech) 2 ships in a class will be better than tier 1 ships in the same class. This is a fact and not something that has any grey ground to contend. Most of you agree to this and even somehow use it to argue against me even though this is my point.
next, in most cases the shield tank ships fall under tier 1 while the armor tanking ships fall into tier 2.
although you can tank a ship for shields that is design to armor tank in pvp where a buffer is more important that regen it is generally a screwy fitting that lacks the most important pvp modules.
This is where i get my conclusion. why relegate the shield tanking ships to the lower tiers therefore making a system in which the shield tanking ships by virtue of being lower ranked in tier are inferior to their armor tanking counterparts in the same class.
All of the above points are things that most of you have said and equal out to the issue I have, yet you still insist on arguing points completely off of the topic I was attempting to discuss.
But I guess that's what I get for trying to post on a forum. Everything here always turns into people each arguing their own points based on a few words they picked out of the post and extrapolated into their own argument not based on the OP. (Furb this is not directed at you, I just included it in the post with your quote to save time and not have to post again.)
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Khandahar Bob
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Posted - 2009.04.01 19:30:00 -
[77]
It's not as simple as saying a higher tier is better; it's got different uses.
I know Caldari ships, so I'll talk in that context. The Caracal is a tier 2 ship, the Moa is a tier 3 ship; but I see very few Moas in low-sec or 0.0 as compared to the number of Caracals I see. A higher tier ship may have more grid or CPU, but you can't compare its statistics in a vacuum.
You have to think about what you're planning to do with the ship. A Caracal has more med slots, a faster base speed and is more agile. That makes it a better heavy tackler than the Moa as it can close faster, has slots for a warp disruptor and can get out faster if necessary.
My advice is ignore the raw statistics and get into a ship that works the way you want it to (a shield tanker) and fly it for a while. Do it on the test server if you have to.
Speed and agility are a form of tank -- though ineffective if you're trying to use a cruiser's speed and agility to tank a frigate. They're also a damage amplifier: if you're in a fast boat that can fit shorter range weapons and ammunition and get close you're going to do more damage than if you're in a slow boat which can't get close and has to use long-range weapons and ammunition.
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Rogue Lilly
Caldari
Lords Of Filth
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Posted - 2009.04.01 19:41:00 -
[78]
I am a complete ass and have been looking at this in a very wrong way.
I have been wrong on just about everything I said because I was basing my opinion on the cruisers and battlecruisers of the minmatari line and have read the forums so much that "MUST HAVE MWD AND WD" has been too pounded into my head.
I take full responsibility for my idiocy and i apologize to all of you who were forced to read my rants here.
I am trying every so hard to break free off the mentality instilled in me by the loudest around here who's views I allowed to overtake my original thoughts that there are many ships and many fittings.
After posting fittings for the rupture and hurricane that had shield tanks and being ridiculed so many times I bought into the "1 build to rule them all" mentality and even began arguing for it.
I took a great step in my recovery today and pulled my passive shield tanked hurricane (which has recieved nothing but flame) from storage and flew it. I had no WD and it felt strange but that is the first step to recovery.
Again, you guys have been correct and it was my own logic that was flawed and tainted by my anger the resentment that the best t1 cruiser, the rupture, is such a better armor tank and the bellicose (the ship i wanted to fly when i first started) sucks so horribly.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.01 20:16:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Omaku Toba
After reading all this I'm so confused. Seems the best option is just to train up shields and armor tanking skills to the max and fit whatever works best for a given ship and situation.
Yeah this really.
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Out of Order
Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2009.04.01 21:21:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Omaku Toba
After reading all this I'm so confused. Seems the best option is just to train up shields and armor tanking skills to the max and fit whatever works best for a given ship and situation.
Yeah this really.
Agreed.
100 MN dual shield buffered cane with damage and speed mods in it's lows and arty's is alot of fun lol.
Stop, hammer time. |
Victoria Akmea
Gallente
Sentient Biotechnology Invention
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Posted - 2009.04.01 22:15:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Victoria Akmea on 01/04/2009 22:18:17
Edited by: Victoria Akmea on 01/04/2009 22:15:46
This is just for the comment that shield tanking sucks period.
I don't fly Minmatar ships, I'm exclusively Gallente. Currently, in a passive shield Ishtar. Lows, all Beta Reactor Shield Power Relays, meds are 2 LSEIIs and 3 slots for mission specific amplifiers. No, I do not use shield hardeners. It's purely passive, since I use my cap for running a Tractor and 2 salvagers. I also use 2 Core Defence Field Purger I rigs. Now, with mediocre shield tanking skills > Comps at 3, Management 3, Operation V, Upgrades 3, Tactical 1, I can easily tank WC4, both sides, even with just T2 amps. I can do even more with the faction amps I'm using now. With the build I'm basing mine off of, which had Officer amps instead, it could easily tank serp/guristas L5 missions with probably around 97% Kin resist, 82% or so Therm. I pick up 95%/79%, respectively.
As I said, I don't know about Minmatar ship. But shield tanking is not lost.
*Edit* Just fixing a mistype. Added the Rigs, that I forgot.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.04.01 23:26:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly
I took a great step in my recovery today and pulled my passive shield tanked hurricane (which has recieved nothing but flame) from storage and flew it. I had no WD and it felt strange but that is the first step to recovery.
You have to focus on what you want to achieve, then pick which ship and fitout best suits your needs, the fleet you're flying with and the expected enemies.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.04.02 01:40:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly
Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 01/04/2009 17:21:28
I want to shield tank something that can generally survive in low sec space, be it running missions or defending myself against pirate attacks.
Here is your issue. Just a heads up, no tank you fit will keep you alive if I tackle you.
Prevention. Learn it.
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