What sort of conditions are I-RED looking for? We might be interested.

Hi John,

I would be happy to let you invest in my minmatar.

I'd like to think weGÇÖve had a good relationship in the past so feel free to contact me if interested. Oh.. and I would require all payment in advance please.

Thanks.

Why?

Hi John,

I would be happy to let you invest in my minmatar.

I'd like to think weGÇÖve had a good relationship in the past so feel free to contact me if interested. Oh.. and I would require all payment in advance please.

Thanks.

Giving money to our enemies, for profit no less, strikes me as something between naive stupidity and outright treason worthy only of an Ammatar.

Why would any loyal son or daughter of the Matari simply give money to a subsidiary of Ishukone of all things? So Ishukone can further refine their Transcranial Microcontroller? Or perhaps come up with a new way to further degrade and enslave the People, and profit from their misery?

I would consider investing in the State only after the State and all the various Megacorps break all economic, military, and political ties with the Empire, and cease production of the TCMC and any other technology used to further slavery. Until such a time exists, investing in the State is foolishness bordering on treason.

Giving money to our enemies, for profit no less, strikes me as something between naive stupidity and outright treason worthy only of an Ammatar...

Giving money to our enemies, for profit no less, strikes me as something between naive stupidity and outright treason worthy only of an Ammatar.

Why would any loyal son or daughter of the Matari simply give money to a subsidiary of Ishukone of all things? So Ishukone can further refine their Transcranial Microcontroller? Or perhaps come up with a new way to further degrade and enslave the People, and profit from their misery?

I would consider investing in the State only after the State and all the various Megacorps break all economic, military, and political ties with the Empire, and cease production of the TCMC and any other technology used to further slavery. Until such a time exists, investing in the State is foolishness bordering on treason.

... Oddly enough, that is probably what helped put the Republic's economy behind in the first place. Good luck with that though.

Giving money to our enemies, for profit no less, strikes me as something between naive stupidity and outright treason worthy only of an Ammatar.

Why would any loyal son or daughter of the Matari simply give money to a subsidiary of Ishukone of all things? So Ishukone can further refine their Transcranial Microcontroller? Or perhaps come up with a new way to further degrade and enslave the People, and profit from their misery?

I would consider investing in the State only after the State and all the various Megacorps break all economic, military, and political ties with the Empire, and cease production of the TCMC and any other technology used to further slavery. Until such a time exists, investing in the State is foolishness bordering on treason.

Further information on this opportunity can be found in the GalNet Channel IshuNET or via mail to Katrina Oniseki.

Giving money to our enemies, for profit no less, strikes me as something between naive stupidity and outright treason worthy only of an Ammatar.

Why would any loyal son or daughter of the Matari simply give money to a subsidiary of Ishukone of all things? So Ishukone can further refine their Transcranial Microcontroller? Or perhaps come up with a new way to further degrade and enslave the People, and profit from their misery?

I would consider investing in the State only after the State and all the various Megacorps break all economic, military, and political ties with the Empire, and cease production of the TCMC and any other technology used to further slavery. Until such a time exists, investing in the State is foolishness bordering on treason.

Because John's organization wants to be friends with everyone. An open business partner.

But being all things to all people, well that's an impossibility.

To be fair, Gottii, this is less a case of "giving money to the enemy" and more a case of conducting legitimate trade with a capsuleer organization that happens to be a subsidary of Ishukone.

I remember a time when Electus Matari used to be a respectable entity, with Evanda Char at the helm.

All this talk of TCMCs. I remember having this discussion often.

I still ask why the vendor is required to dictate what its product is used to do - TCMCs have medical and robotic use. I still ask why there is all this focus on them, and fire for Ishukone, while at the same time making use of the Falcon - an Ishukone design - in Rainbow Squad. I still ask why makers of chains, locks, and sticks - all of which are tools that can be used to impose one's will on another - are not subjected to calls of boycott.

A new one I ask is, "Is there moral outrage at the pilots who produce them and then sell them on the open market where anyone can buy them and use as they wish?"

All this talk of TCMCs. I remember having this discussion often.

I still ask why the vendor is required to dictate what its product is used to do - TCMCs have medical and robotic use. I still ask why there is all this focus on them, and fire for Ishukone, while at the same time making use of the Falcon - an Ishukone design - in Rainbow Squad. I still ask why makers of chains, locks, and sticks - all of which are tools that can be used to impose one's will on another - are not subjected to calls of boycott.

A new one I ask is, "Is there moral outrage at the pilots who produce them and then sell them on the open market where anyone can buy them and use as they wish?"

Giving money to our enemies, for profit no less, strikes me as something between naive stupidity and outright treason worthy only of an Ammatar.

Why would any loyal son or daughter of the Matari simply give money to a subsidiary of Ishukone of all things? So Ishukone can further refine their Transcranial Microcontroller? Or perhaps come up with a new way to further degrade and enslave the People, and profit from their misery?

I would consider investing in the State only after the State and all the various Megacorps break all economic, military, and political ties with the Empire, and cease production of the TCMC and any other technology used to further slavery. Until such a time exists, investing in the State is foolishness bordering on treason.

Make no mistake, sons and daughters of Matar - The Caldari are not your friends. They are collaborators with your dire enemy. Your allies, your natural allies, are the free peoples of the Federated Union of Gallente Prime.

If the vendor were to dictate what the product is to be used for, their sales pitch would sound something like this:

"By offering to keep prices low and affordable, many holders may now benefit from their numerous applications as a method of workforce control."

But who cares, right? It was just business. And capsuleers are quick to forget...

I can admire a corporation that manages to sell to both sides in a conflict.

Truer words were never spoken. Why would the Matari associate with the people who to this day facilitate the slavery of their countless brethren, rather than their natural allies within the Federation?

I consider the words of the late, great Alain Octirant:

Alain Octirant was a bigoted and intolerant fool. I'm not surprised you think so highly of him.

Like you for example. He called you a turncloak, and that obviously made you uncomfortable.

The Federal Nationalist Party aligns itself with the Minmatar Republic. We are both popular movements, driven by the people. All great movements are popular movements. They are the volcanic eruptions of human passions and emotions, stirred into activity by the ruthless Goddess of Distress or by the torch of the spoken word cast into the midst of the people.

If I recall correctly, Mr Octirant was not really fond of immigrates and foreigner influences acting in the Federation.

All this talk of TCMCs. I remember having this discussion often.

I still ask why the vendor is required to dictate what its product is used to do - TCMCs have medical and robotic use. I still ask why there is all this focus on them, and fire for Ishukone, while at the same time making use of the Falcon - an Ishukone design - in Rainbow Squad. I still ask why makers of chains, locks, and sticks - all of which are tools that can be used to impose one's will on another - are not subjected to calls of boycott.

A new one I ask is, "Is there moral outrage at the pilots who produce them and then sell them on the open market where anyone can buy them and use as they wish?"

I am sure it is understandable that EM members with personal experience of some of the nastier Amarrian "workforce control" methods feel rather strongly about this.

All this talk of TCMCs. I remember having this discussion often.

I still ask why the vendor is required to dictate what its product is used to do - TCMCs have medical and robotic use. I still ask why there is all this focus on them, and fire for Ishukone, while at the same time making use of the Falcon - an Ishukone design - in Rainbow Squad. I still ask why makers of chains, locks, and sticks - all of which are tools that can be used to impose one's will on another - are not subjected to calls of boycott.

A new one I ask is, "Is there moral outrage at the pilots who produce them and then sell them on the open market where anyone can buy them and use as they wish?"

I consider the words of the late, great Alain Octirant:

I remember a time when Electus Matari used to be a respectable entity, with Evanda Char at the helm.

It's difficult for me to believe what I'm now seeing from EM's pilots.

What Ishukone has done, however, is not just selling on the open market. They sell to Amarrian holders directly, at a discount, for the express purpose of "workforce control" [1]. That is quite different from just putting some up on the market and regretting it when a Holder buys them. Even if that offer is old and possibly still in effect, I see no reason to believe that Ishukone would not in the future extend similar offers to their Empire allies.

Caldari Lust For Material Wealth is behind Many Strange Things.

Such as this Thing. Whereby Caldari Persons seek Minmatar to give them Money, with which the Caldari will Oppress Federation-resident Minmatar, as they are a Substantial Proportion of the Federal Population.


Furthermore, if the Minmatar Become Involved with the Caldari, they will Soon End Up, not Owning Any of their Planets.

At first, it will be the Caldari saying: Here, have some Investment, oh by the way, you don't seem to be using Anher much, may we Purchase it?
And the Republic will Argue Amongst Itself, and then will say: Yes, Anher is no use to us, and is not overly Tribally Important.

Then Later, the Caldari will say: Here, have some Investment, oh by the way, you're not using Rens, are you? We have some Ideas that will benefit You greatly, if you wish to sell it to us.
And the Republic will Argue Amongst Itself again, and then will say: Yes, Rens is not overly Tribally Important, your Offer is Acceptable.

Then, it will come to pass, that the Caldari will say: Oh by the way, it is time to pay back the Investment. Cash or Pator, either will do.
And the Republic will say: Ah, Nuts. We've sold our Freedom for some Shiny Things. Woe is Us. Again.

There is Another Way, that Avoids This Unpleasantness.

What's so dumb about it? Didn't Heth hold an auction for planets in the war zone that they were controlling at the time?

What's so dumb about it? Didn't Heth hold an auction for planets in the war zone that they were controlling at the time?

You can all just go fly a kite and leave us the hell alone, but I suppose that makes too much sense.

I can't say I'm overly fond of kites. I had a box kite get stuck In a tree once, and I just left it there, stupid thing.

This is beside the point, either some in the Republic want our cooperation or they don't. If they do not.. that just means Ishukone-Raata will be forced to look for more willing Partners elsewhere.

There is nothing wrong with people seeking profit and trying to expand their production capabilities that way.

But that was a wrong move John.

If that isn't a metaphor for the FNP's dedication to good policy, I don't know what is.

Ishukone is directly and explicitly supporting the Amarr Empire in this venture to remove economic strength from the Minmatar. I-RED is supporting Ishukone. Hence, cooperating with I-RED is simply supporting an endeavor to remove Minmatar profits. I am afraid it would be economically stupid to do this.

....we are not trying to court some girl.

Politicaly speaking, although, it is true that given agreements would tend to make I-RED stronger, and a Matari has to ask himself if this is what he wants. I've seen I-RED fighting Caldari Militia pilots before and politicaly position itself against many Caldari things they think are wrong, but ultimately, I don't think I-RED serves any other wealth than Ishukone's.

Trade has never served to remove profits or to remove economic strength.

If it were, we surely would have bedded her by now.

Ishukone subsidiary serves the interests of it's parent company. News at 11.

Key words there are "that we were controlling" and I'll go ahead and add "at the time" since I know someone will make that distinction if I don't.

Or perhaps we just know a lost cause when we see one. Like your policy of 'appeasement' to the Caldari.

Some of the commentors above have mentioned how TCMCs are the bane of all things, yet the same people seem to forget there are much, much more inhumane and cruel methods by which slave control can be obtained.

Spoken like a true bottom feeding misery-monger. The presence of other evils does not absolve you of the responsibility to do what is right.

And what is right, Mr. Keating? From a practical standpoint, TCMCs are more humane than other methods such as, say, Vitoc. Obviously, I do not advocate slavery and neither does the State. What you are essentially asking is for I-RED and therefore Ishukone to implore the Amarrians to remove a system which has firmly entrenched itself in their society - an entire alteration of their culture. It is not our place to do such a thing, as Simca stated earlier.

You seem to forget that TCMCs have more uses than just for slave control. They have medical and robotic benefits as well. Though I suppose a fine, corrupt politician such as yourself would prefer to focus only on the negativities.

I do not condone slavery but I take no public action against it because it is not my place to do so, and I have my own agenda to fulfill. I have my own methods with which to protest slavery, rest assured.

And yes, men such as Mr. Keating and yourself can most certainly be labeled as corrupt. You speak as an altruistic liberator of mankind yet you spew venom at all things Caldari. Please do yourself a favor and lighten your darkened heart.

You want to really hurt the Empire? Attack its friendships. Ruin its economic ventures. Lure away its allies with better deals. Make it clear that you are a superior choice of companion.

If the State thinks you're a better customer than the Empire, it'll start adjusting its foreign policies to reflect that belief. I-RED severed ties with its Amarrian business partners because they were thieves and liars. They're now looking to replace the Amarrians with someone more reliable and less likely to stab them in the back during a moment of weakness - such as what happened with CVA. That could be you.

You want to really hurt the Empire? Attack its friendships. Ruin its economic ventures. Lure away its allies with better deals. Make it clear that you are a superior choice of companion.

Again. This is not a debate, Ishukone-Raata is looking for a mutual trade agreement. We are not here to needlessly argue about Ishukone's past dealings.

Further information on this opportunity can be found in the GalNet Channel IshuNET or via mail to Katrina Oniseki.

Again I have to ask: what is the grounds for dismissing the concerns about Ishukone's support of the Empire as past issues?

The State, even if it's run by a madman, is still geared towards the generation of profit. If the State thinks you're a better customer than the Empire, it'll start adjusting its foreign policies to reflect that belief.

Teraa Matar aren't.

I-RED still is, though, which is what I meant. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

As a man who has many friends in the Minmatar Republic and a good working relationship with I-RED (despite one member's repeated and inexplicable attempts to ruin it), I'd strongly advise Minmatar corporations to consider this:

The State, even if it's run by a madman, is still geared towards the generation of profit. If the State thinks you're a better customer than the Empire, it'll start adjusting its foreign policies to reflect that belief. I-RED severed ties with its Amarrian business partners because they were thieves and liars. They're now looking to replace the Amarrians with someone more reliable and less likely to stab them in the back during a moment of weakness - such as what happened with CVA. That could be you.

You want to really hurt the Empire? Attack its friendships. Ruin its economic ventures. Lure away its allies with better deals. Make it clear that you are a superior choice of companion.

All of this makes sense so long as you're okay with having allies that previously turned on their past allies. If they sold out their past allies once it became profitable to do so, it would be foolish to think they wouldn't do so to us.

And, of course, only so long as you're willing to trample the memory of your enslaved brethren by allying yourself with the people who saw them as a market to exploit for profit as opposed to a crime to stop.

I've done many distasteful things in the name of the goddess of realpolitik, but that is an alliance I do not think I would be comfortable with.

Again I have to ask: what is the grounds for dismissing the concerns about Ishukone's support of the Empire as past issues?

Stuff

-Cheiftan

The inability of some to distinguish between business and politics never ceases to amaze me.

stress made me go bald...

*Chuckles*

Fancy a drink somtime?

Sorry dear, I'm spoken for.

This is what concerns me. I think you're misunderstanding business and sales as 'picking a side' in your war.

What worries me is that you seem to misunderstand business and sales as absoliving you from responsibility.

It doesn't.

Your choices matter, and what and how you sell affects your further sales. If you sell fedo feeces as chocolate once, people will stop buying your stuff, even if you didn't sell Fedo Chocolate directly to them. That's what Free Market means: If people do not like what you do, they stop buying from you. You then have to think about how to handle this. You either change your sales strategy, or you deal with the consequences. Complaining that the market doesn't do what you want it to do shows a serious misunderstanding of what a "free market" means.

Selling TCMS at discount to Amarrian Holders was/is a serious marketing screw-up for the Matari market.

What worries me is that you seem to misunderstand business and sales as absoliving you from responsibility.

It doesn't.

Your choices matter, and what and how you sell affects your further sales. If you sell fedo feeces as chocolate once, people will stop buying your stuff, even if you didn't sell Fedo Chocolate directly to them. That's what Free Market means: If people do not like what you do, they stop buying from you. You then have to think about how to handle this. You either change your sales strategy, or you deal with the consequences. Complaining that the market doesn't do what you want it to do shows a serious misunderstanding of what a "free market" means.

Selling TCMS at discount to Amarrian Holders was/is a serious marketing screw-up for the Matari market.

It's also amusing that only the militant Capsuleer organizations have spoken up in this thread.

Fair point, Elsebeth. I should say military instead of militant. But then, I could be mistaken again in my assumption that EM is not industrial in nature.

Ishukone sold TCMCs because it doesn't care.

...

I think you're misunderstanding business and sales as 'picking a side' in your war.

Please, Mr. Vechtor - we both know that you wouldn't be a successful business man if you were truly this naive. I understand your need to keep up the cover, but I would recommend in the future to avoid getting into a situation where you have to resort to silly statements such as that to protect your business strategy.

Have a nice day.

Captain Sadik,

If I may offer a suggestion, when debating in a public forum even a minimal effort to research the topic you are discussing can help you avoid public embarrassments like this in the future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_trade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage

Respectfully,
Hamish Grayson

Captain Sadik,

If I may offer a suggestion, when debating in a public forum even a minimal effort to research the topic you are discussing can help you avoid public embarrassments like this in the future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_trade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage

Respectfully,
Hamish Grayson

Free trade is often opposed by domestic industries that would have their profits and market share reduced by lower prices for imported goods.

I was somewhat confused that you apparently didn't even bother to read the stuff you link to in such an arrogant post.

I have no clue why tribalists need to explain to Caldari what this "Free Market" (and apparently "Free Trade") thing means, but here we go.

The problem at stake here would be how the economic benefits of free trade outweighs the strengthening of one of your enemies. ItGÇÖs a political problem, not economic, and thatGÇÖs something I-RED couldnGÇÖt clarify.

Ishukone subsidiary serves the interests of it's parent company. News at 11.

I-RED is not Ishukone, as I said. What profits I-RED does not necessarily profit Ishukone. The reverse holds true. What profits them (more often than not) does not directly profit us. Entering a trade deal with I-REd specifically does not mean the same as entering a trade deal with Ishukone, nor do your profits necessarily affect Ishukone in the slightest measure.

As for the benefits to the Republic, I should think it would be obvious how increased trade would benefit any society. I can't say for sure, since the details of whatever arrangement would have been worked out would be said in private, but surely the Republic would have benefited from the deal in some fashion.

Ishukone subsidiary serves the interests of it's parent company. News at 11.

The division between the Matari and the Caldari is as false as the division between the Caldari and Gallente. Peace and co-operation between all groups are possible, if people are prepared to put gripes of the past behind.

It is the stuff of nightmares.

Now, all of this seems to have resolved itself in a plodding, predictable fashion; however, the proposition showed grace under fire of groupthink, and that at least is to be commended. Speaking in the abstract - hypothetically, even - I wonder if cooperation between groups might have proven more feasible if Ishukone had only acted on a plan for regime change prior to the proposition.

In any event, the Nefantar tribe should be receptive to capital transfers. Such flows would align with their unique circumstances quite well. What's more, the Mandate is basically "Matari space" - without so many of those, you know... Sebiestor.