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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.03.31 12:07:00 -
[1]
The general idea of this second iteration seems considerably better as general idea than previous iteration. However - Widow and perhaps Kitsune (altho that one is relatively okish in general) might benefit from some additional tweaking.
Kitsune 'problem' is inadequate lokcing range to fully utilize range as defence. As it's lacking range then perhaps small tweak to make it slighly faster with afterburners but not overly fast with mwd.
Widow .. well .. and black ops in general. They have many issues starting with jump range / fuel and ending with their tier 1 counterparts being able to outperform them in actual combat. I think black ops would deserve separate visit where all of them are looked at once instead of just visiting them one by one when their number comes up in change list. In my personal opinion Widow is a bit misplaced as hybrid e-war platform. It would do better as combat platform as cloaking ECM ship role is already filled by Falcon for cheaper. Ie - make it more like Rattlesnake than like Scorpion.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.03.31 15:54:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: CCP Chronotis
The scorpion with max skills and a BZ-5 (caldari racial jammer) will have a optimal range of 72km and a Falloff range of 80km with a ECM strength of 7.875 without any other modules or rigs fitted.
Fair enough. This will mean that pilots who have spezialized in it can reach lower edge of normal fleet engagement range with outer edge of falloff with one SDA (159 km). Altho with Caldary BS 5 trained it's tough decision if one would bring Rokh or Scorpion for that fleet fight.
With targets being in falloff area 'effective' strenght will be then approx 4 points against racial target (with 1x SDA) resulting in approx 25% propability of getting off jam against proper battleship target. Cosidering that fleet scorpion has usually 6 jammers it will mean at first glance (without doing proper calculation atm) that one Scorpion will be able to negate 1.5 opposing battleships.
Current 'regular' Scorpion range is 180 km (and that is also currently in falloff) in fleet (ie MWD + booster + 6x ECM).
Have not looked at guns ... can T2 425 mm rails with spike reach those ranges without ship bonuses to range ? I kinda doubt, but if they can Scoprion would be kinda okish - altho in real situation it would prolly not matter as he does not have mids nor lows to spare for gun range enchanting mods.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.04.01 08:45:00 -
[3]
Good point about dampeners and scorpion. They indeed seem to be more effective than ECM now at fleet ranges on paper. I would also like to add, that if one is going to fit dampeners anyway for e-war then one is better off in dampener Rokh in fleet than in Scorpion with dampeners. It's not like Rokh needs all those tracking computers to reach fleet ranges.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.04.01 09:08:00 -
[4]
Ok - some numbers also
Current Fleet Scorpion
180 km (plus gang bonuses) range, up to 200 km ECM optimal (with rigs and max skills) around 8 (with DD buffer) to 12 ECM strenght at optimal.
New Fleet Scorpion
180 km (plus gang bonuses) range, up to ~ 85 km ECM optimal + 90 km falloff (with rigs and skills) around 4 (with DD buffer) to 4.5 ECM strenght at fleet range (~25% sucsess rate)
Dampener Scorpion
180 km (plus gang bonuses) range, up to 71 km damp optimal (with rigs and skills) + 90 km falloff. Around 50 - 33 % sucsess rate at fleet ranges.
Dampener Rokh
180 km range, same dampener max stats, altho has 2 less midslots.
So - looking at those numbers currently - if you want to do e-war in fleet it makes perfect sense to bring Scorpion. After the changes the Scorpion effectivity at fleet ranges will drop around 3x and dampener Scorpion will be roughly 50% 'better' at fleet range than ECM Scorpion. Hell, even Dampener Rokh will be approx as 'good' at e-war at fleet ranges as ECM Scorpion.
So at first glance the proposed changes seemed not too bad, but after thinking about it - I think those changes will still kill the fleet scorpion role. If that is all that can be reached then I would take that short range brawler instead. It at least might be able to do something elsewhere .. perhaps ... and I could always fit Damps if I want to do fleet stuff. Or bring better ship.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.04.01 18:50:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Lady Laserlance
how about making the gallente recons the stone to the caldari ecm scissors? give them some damp range and locking time love and voila, you have a nice neutalizer. and as an extra plus, it also works out on the RP side.
Reason why Falcons are atm 'king of the hill' is bcos damps got nerfed. As a sideeffect we also got those scripts that go into damps and tracking disruptors plus some changes to sensor boosters and how they stack against damps.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.04.02 04:09:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
Right. That's optimal with no rigs or modules. Except SDAs will give +10% each, and rigs give +20% each. So +30% in modules, +40% in rigs. Looks like ECM optimal will still be on the very edge of RSD falloff. Wonderful. Still no effective defense against ECM.
Those are stacking against each other so rigged ECM ~85 km optimal and Rigged damps ~70 km optimal. That is not 'optimal at outer edge of falloff'. And things will look even quite good if you take into account that ECM is propability based even in optimal while damps are propability based only in falloff (and start ticking down from 100% vs ECM starting going downwards whatever it's propability happened to be against that target).
Granted - as ECM ships tend to have quite good max lock ranges and also fit sensor boosters damps are not that optimal against them if they would be operating at sub 100 km range.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.04.02 08:14:00 -
[7]
Scorpion is looking better with the latest changes. Not entirely sure about if they are adequate enough to make it keep it's viability as fleet e-war support. So correct me if I'm wrong (not able to get into SiSi atm).
80 km x 1.5 (ship bonuses) + 70 km x 1.5 (ship bonuses) = 120 km optimal + 105 km falloff.
14 points at 120 km ... 10 points at 150 km ... 8 points at 180 km
Unless I missed something. If I did not is seems quite viable platform - slightly better below fleet ranges, approx the same at regular fleet range (150-160 km) and slightly lower at it's usual max engagement range (180 - 190 km) than currently. It would outperform dampener scorpion at those ranges.
Note that those numbers are not based on actually looking at ship in SiSi but on eariler relase of ECM range with max skills and no modules plus that post few lines upwards stating that scorpion now has 15% per level strenght bonus and 10% to both optimal and falloff for ECM per level.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.04.03 09:46:00 -
[8]
Ofcource it would be best leave Scorpion as it is currently (with correbonding changes to ship bonuses to take into account changes to ECM mods and SDA'S).
One of main reasons to use Scorpion in fleets currently is that it is relatively easy for carebear to get into and do something. Ie BS lev 4, ECM skills at 4 is considerably shorter training time than T2 guns plus ship itself is relatively cheap (altho will be primary more often than not). Granted with attribute remapping available it's no longer so big deal if you have carebear char and want to go combat.
New Scorpion will not be quite cutting it at fleet ranges with just lev 4 skills - it will need approx same amount of training as other fleet ships do (ie 2-3 months) and thus in the future it popularity will most likely fall somewhat. At least thats what I would speculate - if you have to pick either T2 guns or max skills for ECM I sure know what I would pick as first preference.
With max skills it will outperform dampeners on the same ship at fleet ranges. I have still not tested it myself so can't comment if it would need the rigs at all costs to reach fleet ranges. Currently they are used quite often without any rigs as they are usually considered 'suicide' ships in fleet battles.
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