EVE Search - Courier Scam- No chance of getting collateral back?

Check My IP Information

All Channels

EVE New Citizens Q&A

Courier Scam- No chance of getting collateral back?

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 [2] :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Rathelm	Posted - 2009.04.02 13:52:00 - [31] Originally by: Takemikazuki I'm not arguing against the perception that the contract had a fraudulent intention. What I am arguing against is the notion that the ability to scam renders the contract system pointless. But the system isn't pointless. The potential for scams just means that one should be careful and learn to discern between the legit and the fraudulent. This is New Eden, not Earth, and the legal ramifications of certain actions don't easily compare. More responsibility is given to the individual in New Eden. If I steal the ore you spent the last hour mining the space police don't intervene, they just give you the right to retalitate. As for the ability to scam and fraud, I think these are essential to the game. It gives a high value to the trustworthy and it encourages caution in dealing with potential profitable schemes. The scams do not hinder the market - they develop it and makes it dynamic and interesting. It's kinda like a darwinian filter option. No one is forcing you to buy a 2000ISK worth module to 500 mill. No one is forcing you to accept a contract that is designed to get you ganked or loosing the collateral. No one is enforcing you to invest half your wallet into some shady IPO scheme that promise everything yet gives you nothing. Sure, it is not very pleasant to be the victim of fraud, but take it as a learning experience and move on. And what I'm saying is your point is pointless. No matter whether this is Earth or New Eden, a contract represents straight law. You're trying to defend poor programming. It's not like the guy got scammed from poor judgement. He got scammed because the game failed to give him all the information that a real world company would ask for. FedEx wouldn't deliver to a company that is unwilling to accept their packages.
Jakobslad Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.04.02 14:59:00 - [32] That is exactly my point. The ability to scam people legitimately in-game is all fine and dandy but in this situation it causes a bigger problem. If all courier contracts to or from 0.0 are assumed to be scams by anyone who knows what they are doing, then people in 0.0 lose the ability to even use the courier system. I would say probably 1/3 of the contracts listed in any given region are deliveries to 0.0 space. I completely ignore these contracts now even though one or two of them might actually be contracts. You can't really think that that is how CCP wants it to work. There is always going to be risk involved with running contracts into low-sec and 0.0 especially but the idea is that you take that high risk for a higher reward. When there is absolutely 0 potential for reward then the system is broken.
Iria Ahrens Amarr 101st Space Marine Force Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.04.02 17:32:00 - [33] Edited by: Iria Ahrens on 02/04/2009 17:34:18 Edited by: Iria Ahrens on 02/04/2009 17:33:08 Originally by: Neo Omni Edited by: Neo Omni on 01/04/2009 05:47:34 What I don't understand is that with all the "law enforcement" elements in the game and CCP out to eliminate any exploits, they allow this to go on. Something should be done about this because it compromises the contract system in the game and makes it almost pointless. When you check info on a contract, it tells you in big bold letters that it is for a player owned station. At that point you need to do your homework and make sure you have docking rights at that station before you head out. Also, the person that put out the contract has a record. You can check out all the person's other contracts completed to get a good idea if the contracts are scams or not. In other words, there are consequences in game, the contract maker gets a bad rep and people don't do those contracts. Player owned station contracts are not scams, they are put out there for allies to move. In other words, this was no scam. You accepted a contract you could not fill. If anything, it's shame on you for inconveniencing the contract maker so they have to wait for you to give up, and create another contract. -- Nobody expects the Amarr Inquisition!
Jakobslad Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.04.02 18:41:00 - [34] Either you are a bad troll or you simply can not read. This was a scam. The package contained an empty small container. Look at available contracts and you will see several in pretty much every region that end in BWF-ZZ. All of these are scams. I am at work right now so I can't verify but I am almost positive that there is no warning in bold letters telling you that the station is player owned.
Iria Ahrens Amarr 101st Space Marine Force Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.04.02 20:49:00 - [35] Edited by: Iria Ahrens on 02/04/2009 20:50:26 Originally by: Jakobslad Either you are a bad troll or you simply can not read. This was a scam. The package contained an empty small container. Look at available contracts and you will see several in pretty much every region that end in BWF-ZZ. All of these are scams. I am at work right now so I can't verify but I am almost positive that there is no warning in bold letters telling you that the station is player owned. err, no. It's not a scam. Regardless of what is in the container. If you had delivered it, you would have profited. The problem was accepting a contract for a station you could not enter. Sure, it's the equivilant of can flipping, but if you are wise, you can out smart the smarty. There was a warning in bold red the last time I accepted a player owned station contract. -- Nobody expects the Amarr Inquisition!
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2009.04.02 20:57:00 - [36] Originally by: Rathelm The GMs are the police of the game. If CCP was that concerned about reducing their GMs workload they would remove these easily exploitable systems. How hard would it be to add a, "you currently do not have docking rights at this station," message on the contract, and if they have the station's docking open at creation of the contract then the contract bestows upon you those rights when the contract is accepted. CCP is not here to hold your hand; they can slap a warning message on anything: "Are you sure you want to undock? In space things might happen which make you feel hurt." If the GMs are "the police of the game" (I'm not sure if that's a good analogy, but I'll go along with it), that's still no reason to adjust game mechanics to help people who don't think for themselves. Instead CCP should punish people for filing frivolous petitions, as the real-world police will do if you waste their time. FREE! jumpclone service - NOW 192 locations!
Rathelm	Posted - 2009.04.02 21:33:00 - [37] Edited by: Rathelm on 02/04/2009 21:35:33 Well responded to the same post twice. Beer... It can do bad things to your memory kids.
Rathelm	Posted - 2009.04.02 21:43:00 - [38] Originally by: Estel Arador Originally by: Rathelm The GMs are the police of the game. If CCP was that concerned about reducing their GMs workload they would remove these easily exploitable systems. How hard would it be to add a, "you currently do not have docking rights at this station," message on the contract, and if they have the station's docking open at creation of the contract then the contract bestows upon you those rights when the contract is accepted. CCP is not here to hold your hand; they can slap a warning message on anything: "Are you sure you want to undock? In space things might happen which make you feel hurt." If the GMs are "the police of the game" (I'm not sure if that's a good analogy, but I'll go along with it), that's still no reason to adjust game mechanics to help people who don't think for themselves. Instead CCP should punish people for filing frivolous petitions, as the real-world police will do if you waste their time. I absolutely agree with you, but we're not discussing a guy that didn't know what he was doing making a mistake. We're talking about someone who saw a contract, and in good faith paid the collateral with the assumption that if someone designs a contract for delivery that the game would let people deliver it. This is not the case and why you would defend such poor programming is beyond me. This guy is basically FedEx. FedEx would never let this happen because they would ask a couple basic questions right from the get go. The contract system should answer these same questions, aka "You can't deliver here".
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2009.04.02 21:51:00 - [39] Edited by: Estel Arador on 02/04/2009 21:51:20 Originally by: Rathelm We're talking about someone who saw a contract, and in good faith paid the collateral with the assumption that if someone designs a contract for delivery that the game would let people deliver it. This is not the case This is a false statement. The contract can be delivered, just not by anyone. Originally by: Rathelm and why you would defend such poor programming is beyond me. Because programming is not the issue. Someone made a mistake which could've been prevented by a little research. Soon you'll be arguing that CCP should program the game to automatically sell items for a profit (since the game at the moment allows you to sell items at below their value and that's obviously a programming error ). Originally by: Rathelm This guy is basically FedEx. FedEx would never let this happen because they would ask a couple basic questions right from the get go. The contract system should answer these same questions, aka "You can't deliver here". FedEx would never let this happen because they do their research. Noone tells FedEx "You can't deliver here", they decide for themselves that they can't deliver there.
Rathelm	Posted - 2009.04.02 22:14:00 - [40] Originally by: Estel Arador Edited by: Estel Arador on 02/04/2009 21:51:20 Originally by: Rathelm We're talking about someone who saw a contract, and in good faith paid the collateral with the assumption that if someone designs a contract for delivery that the game would let people deliver it. This is not the case This is a false statement. The contract can be delivered, just not by anyone. Originally by: Rathelm and why you would defend such poor programming is beyond me. Because programming is not the issue. Someone made a mistake which could've been prevented by a little research. Soon you'll be arguing that CCP should program the game to automatically sell items for a profit (since the game at the moment allows you to sell items at below their value and that's obviously a programming error ). Originally by: Rathelm This guy is basically FedEx. FedEx would never let this happen because they would ask a couple basic questions right from the get go. The contract system should answer these same questions, aka "You can't deliver here". FedEx would never let this happen because they do their research. Noone tells FedEx "You can't deliver here", they decide for themselves that they can't deliver there. The contract was designed with the intention it couldn't be delivered. What amount of research would let you know that you can't deliver there, besides actually trying to dock there before you take the contract? Do you think that you should have to make two trips to any 0.0 player station to make sure you're not getting screwed? You know I honestly believe Eve would have more players if the existing playerbase didn't defend such an esoteric UI that makes you jump through hops to find the information you need to know.

Omaku Toba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.04.03 01:38:00 - [41] Its no different to accepting a contract for an item assuming that what its labels as is actually what you are going to recieve. If there is any doubt that the contract you are taking is dodgy then simply ignore it and perhaps even blacklist the name of the player who made the contract in the first place.
Rathelm	Posted - 2009.04.03 06:00:00 - [42] Originally by: Omaku Toba Its no different to accepting a contract for an item assuming that what its labels as is actually what you are going to recieve. If there is any doubt that the contract you are taking is dodgy then simply ignore it and perhaps even blacklist the name of the player who made the contract in the first place. I would agree with you if in your example, if you say you're selling item A even though you're really selling item B, if it actually showed item A. But it doesn't. It shows item B.
Takemikazuki Donnerkeil Industries	Posted - 2009.04.03 06:06:00 - [43] Originally by: Rathelm And what I'm saying is your point is pointless. No matter whether this is Earth or New Eden, a contract represents straight law. You're trying to defend poor programming. It's not like the guy got scammed from poor judgement. He got scammed because the game failed to give him all the information that a real world company would ask for. FedEx wouldn't deliver to a company that is unwilling to accept their packages. Poor judgement on behalf of the courier or failure to obtain information on docking rights - call it what you will. But it has nothing to do with bad programming. The fact is that there are tools within the game that can be used to gather information. You mention FedEx. But the regular capsuleer ain't FedEx. So, if in doubt about a particular contract the regular capsuleer could take a quick chat with one of the established hauler corporations to obtain advise on how to approach contracts such as these. What you seem to crave is a system that involves no judgement on the part of the player. Yeah, someone fresh out might not know about docking rights. But then again, such knowledge goes with the trade and if one wants to become a hauler one should do some homework on the particulars involved.
Rathelm	Posted - 2009.04.03 07:18:00 - [44] Originally by: Takemikazuki Edited by: Takemikazuki on 03/04/2009 06:19:42 Originally by: Rathelm And what I'm saying is your point is pointless. No matter whether this is Earth or New Eden, a contract represents straight law. You're trying to defend poor programming. It's not like the guy got scammed from poor judgement. He got scammed because the game failed to give him all the information that a real world company would ask for. FedEx wouldn't deliver to a company that is unwilling to accept their packages. Poor judgement on behalf of the courier or failure to obtain information on docking rights - call it what you will. But it has nothing to do with bad programming. The fact is that there are tools within the game that can be used to gather information. You mention FedEx. But the regular capsuleer ain't FedEx. So, if in doubt about a particular contract the regular capsuleer could take a quick chat with one of the established hauler corporations to obtain advise on how to approach contracts such as these. That is perhaps the quickest route. What you seem to crave is a system that involves no judgement on the part of the player. Yeah, someone fresh out might not know about docking rights. But then again, such knowledge goes with the trade and if one wants to become a hauler one should do some homework on the particulars involved. It still comes down to the fact that there is no easy mechanism to tell if you have docking permission short of flying to the system. The game doesn't tell you what you are shipping just the size. And I mean that would be one of the first things a shipping company would want to know especially if they're going to insure the item (which is basically what you're doing by putting up collateral). It's not a good system and in no way should be defended. I stand by the fact the OP did not show poor judgement. He made it to the station for god's sake and got screwed because the person abused the fact that the courier contract doesn't show what you're shipping. You have to have good faith in the player to actually keep the collateral at a value of what is being shipped. These people abuse a loophole in game mechanics to screw people and cast doubt on the whole system.
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2009.04.03 07:23:00 - [45] Originally by: Rathelm It still comes down to the fact that there is no easy mechanism Why should it be easy?!? Originally by: Rathelm the fact that the courier contract doesn't show what you're shipping. That's quite irrelevant. What you're shipping doesn't matter as long as you deliver it. No matter how outrageous the collateral is, you're guaranteed to get it back as soon as the package is delivered. FREE! jumpclone service - NOW 192 locations!
Takemikazuki Donnerkeil Industries	Posted - 2009.04.03 08:53:00 - [46] Originally by: Rathelm Originally by: Takemikazuki Edited by: Takemikazuki on 03/04/2009 06:19:42 Originally by: Rathelm And what I'm saying is your point is pointless. No matter whether this is Earth or New Eden, a contract represents straight law. You're trying to defend poor programming. It's not like the guy got scammed from poor judgement. He got scammed because the game failed to give him all the information that a real world company would ask for. FedEx wouldn't deliver to a company that is unwilling to accept their packages. Poor judgement on behalf of the courier or failure to obtain information on docking rights - call it what you will. But it has nothing to do with bad programming. The fact is that there are tools within the game that can be used to gather information. You mention FedEx. But the regular capsuleer ain't FedEx. So, if in doubt about a particular contract the regular capsuleer could take a quick chat with one of the established hauler corporations to obtain advise on how to approach contracts such as these. That is perhaps the quickest route. What you seem to crave is a system that involves no judgement on the part of the player. Yeah, someone fresh out might not know about docking rights. But then again, such knowledge goes with the trade and if one wants to become a hauler one should do some homework on the particulars involved. It still comes down to the fact that there is no easy mechanism to tell if you have docking permission short of flying to the system. The game doesn't tell you what you are shipping just the size. And I mean that would be one of the first things a shipping company would want to know especially if they're going to insure the item (which is basically what you're doing by putting up collateral). It's not a good system and in no way should be defended. I stand by the fact the OP did not show poor judgement. He made it to the station for god's sake and got screwed because the person abused the fact that the courier contract doesn't show what you're shipping. You have to have good faith in the player to actually keep the collateral at a value of what is being shipped. These people abuse a loophole in game mechanics to screw people and cast doubt on the whole system.
Brumin Rush Minmatar	Posted - 2009.04.03 11:08:00 - [47] So if this is not a scam, what prevents me from creating an alt and issuing a whole bunch of contracts?
Omaku Toba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.04.03 11:57:00 - [48] Edited by: Omaku Toba on 03/04/2009 11:59:13 Originally by: Rathelm Originally by: Omaku Toba Its no different to accepting a contract for an item assuming that what its labels as is actually what you are going to recieve. If there is any doubt that the contract you are taking is dodgy then simply ignore it and perhaps even blacklist the name of the player who made the contract in the first place. I would agree with you if in your example, if you say you're selling item A even though you're really selling item B, if it actually showed item A. But it doesn't. It shows item B. You know where the item needs to be delivered don't you? Now its reasonable to assume that if the delivery location is in nullsec that there are likely to be additional complications that may include the innability to deliver the item due to access restrictions be there in the form of aggressive ships attacking you or an inability to gain access to the station. If I was a delivery company and someone offered me a huge amount of money to deliver a package to deepest darkest Africa as long as I was willing to pay them a huge collateral I'd refuse immedietely. Given that deepest darkest Africa tends to be wartorn and rife with armed crazy people its a fair bet that I wouldn't be able to gain access to the location in one piece. Now if I was lucky I might be able to bride the local leaders and gain access to the delivery addresss and so collect on the reward once I got home but thats a gamble and you'd have to accept that there is a good chance they'd just shoot you instead. In nullsec the same is true since they will either let you dock at their station after some sort of compensation or just blow you up for being in what they consider to be their space. Yes its an issue but this game usually comes down to balancing risk vs gain and in hits particular aspect of the game the risk often outweighs the gain. Ideally there could be some kind of mechanism which provides some kind of assurance that the individual making the courier contract has some kind of ability to assure that access to the station at least is garunteed for the duration of the contract.
Secunda Marto	Posted - 2009.04.03 12:00:00 - [49] I think it is quite simple. All stations should have a cargo delivery entrance, with no access to station facilities except delivery of cargo that has been ordered in the stations name. The way it works now does not bring anything of value, and does IMO indeed diminish the contract system.
Secunda Marto	Posted - 2009.04.03 12:03:00 - [50] Originally by: Brumin Rush So if this is not a scam, what prevents me from creating an alt and issuing a whole bunch of contracts? Yes it is a scam, and no there is nothing preventing you from issuing a bunch of those.

Omaku Toba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.04.03 12:49:00 - [51] Originally by: Secunda Marto I think it is quite simple. All stations should have a cargo delivery entrance, with no access to station facilities except delivery of cargo that has been ordered in the stations name. The way it works now does not bring anything of value, and does IMO indeed diminish the contract system. In theory a good idea assuming that it only allowed items to be dropped into the hanger and nothing retrieved. You couldn't use a system of password access since I could easily make up a contract with high reward and collatoral and make up a password for a random station without you having any way of checking if I actually own that station and know the password to gain access. The only downside that occurs is that anyone could dump any old crap into their just to be a pain in the arse.
Rathelm	Posted - 2009.04.03 14:13:00 - [52] Originally by: Omaku Toba Edited by: Omaku Toba on 03/04/2009 11:59:13 Originally by: Rathelm Originally by: Omaku Toba Its no different to accepting a contract for an item assuming that what its labels as is actually what you are going to recieve. If there is any doubt that the contract you are taking is dodgy then simply ignore it and perhaps even blacklist the name of the player who made the contract in the first place. I would agree with you if in your example, if you say you're selling item A even though you're really selling item B, if it actually showed item A. But it doesn't. It shows item B. You know where the item needs to be delivered don't you? Now its reasonable to assume that if the delivery location is in nullsec that there are likely to be additional complications that may include the innability to deliver the item due to access restrictions be there in the form of aggressive ships attacking you or an inability to gain access to the station. If I was a delivery company and someone offered me a huge amount of money to deliver a package to deepest darkest Africa as long as I was willing to pay them a huge collateral I'd refuse immedietely. Given that deepest darkest Africa tends to be wartorn and rife with armed crazy people its a fair bet that I wouldn't be able to gain access to the location in one piece. Now if I was lucky I might be able to bride the local leaders and gain access to the delivery addresss and so collect on the reward once I got home but thats a gamble and you'd have to accept that there is a good chance they'd just shoot you instead. In nullsec the same is true since they will either let you dock at their station after some sort of compensation or just blow you up for being in what they consider to be their space. Yes its an issue but this game usually comes down to balancing risk vs gain and in hits particular aspect of the game the risk often outweighs the gain. Ideally there could be some kind of mechanism which provides some kind of assurance that the individual making the courier contract has some kind of ability to assure that access to the station at least is garunteed for the duration of the contract. The problem is you are wrong. And the reason I feel confident saying you are wrong is this. If I said deliver this letter that is worth 1 dollar to deep dark africa and I'm willing to pay you 10 dollar but I request 5 dollars in collateral you could in essence make an informed decision. You could say it's worth a dollar, but he wants 5 it may not be worth it because he's scamming me. The current system you have no idea the value of the goods you're transporting so you can't determine whether you're being scammed or not. What you're delivering for 100 mil in collateral could be worth 100 mil or it could be worth 1000 ISK. That's the problem with the current system, and scammers take advantage of poor game mechanics to screw over FedEx players.
Secunda Marto	Posted - 2009.04.03 15:11:00 - [53] Originally by: Omaku Toba Originally by: Secunda Marto I think it is quite simple. All stations should have a cargo delivery entrance, with no access to station facilities except delivery of cargo that has been ordered in the stations name. The way it works now does not bring anything of value, and does IMO indeed diminish the contract system. In theory a good idea assuming that it only allowed items to be dropped into the hanger and nothing retrieved. You couldn't use a system of password access since I could easily make up a contract with high reward and collatoral and make up a password for a random station without you having any way of checking if I actually own that station and know the password to gain access. The only downside that occurs is that anyone could dump any old crap into their just to be a pain in the arse. Entrance only with valid contract. Item gets moved from delivery hangar to normal hangar once you complete the contract, anything else that remains in the delivery hangar gets destroyed when you leave. It does not have to be complicated
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2009.04.03 15:16:00 - [54] Originally by: Rathelm The problem is you are wrong. And the reason I feel confident saying you are wrong is this. (...) I hate quoting myself, but: Originally by: Estel Arador That's quite irrelevant. What you're shipping doesn't matter as long as you deliver it. No matter how outrageous the collateral is, you're guaranteed to get it back as soon as the package is delivered. FREE! jumpclone service - NOW 192 locations!
digital0verdose Caldari	Posted - 2009.04.03 15:41:00 - [55] Originally by: Rathelm The problem is you are wrong. And the reason I feel confident saying you are wrong is this. If I said deliver this letter that is worth 1 dollar to deep dark africa and I'm willing to pay you 10 dollar but I request 5 dollars in collateral you could in essence make an informed decision. You could say it's worth a dollar, but he wants 5 it may not be worth it because he's scamming me. The current system you have no idea the value of the goods you're transporting so you can't determine whether you're being scammed or not. What you're delivering for 100 mil in collateral could be worth 100 mil or it could be worth 1000 ISK. That's the problem with the current system, and scammers take advantage of poor game mechanics to screw over FedEx players. All the potential scamee has to do is take his fast frigate to the drop off location to see if he has access. If he does, there is no issue; if he doesn't, he just saved himself from losing money. If it isn't worth the time to check and see if you can dock at the drop off location then he should stick to known areas that are accessible. If him being scammed wasn't avoidable then I would say there is a valid argument about the mechanics. Since the potential to be scammed is avoidable, the mechanics are fine since the potential to be scammed reduces the courier competition keeping it profitable for those that know what they are doing and those willing to learn. We could keep talking about this all day but you're too busy reading my sig instead.
Jakobslad Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.04.03 23:53:00 - [56] Originally by: digital0verdose All the potential scamee has to do is take his fast frigate to the drop off location to see if he has access. If he does, there is no issue; if he doesn't, he just saved himself from losing money. If it isn't worth the time to check and see if you can dock at the drop off location then he should stick to known areas that are accessible. If him being scammed wasn't avoidable then I would say there is a valid argument about the mechanics. Since the potential to be scammed is avoidable, the mechanics are fine since the potential to be scammed reduces the courier competition keeping it profitable for those that know what they are doing and those willing to learn. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to tell you whether or not you can deliver to the station without you having to go there? As anyone who runs courier contracts will tell you, the only way it is worth the risk and reward to take any courier contracts is if you are constantly running one. Your suggestion means that I would have to run out there through low-sec with no package (already risking my ship) and then back to the station to accept the contract and make the same dangerous run again. No courier in their right mind would do this so having this as the only way to safely take courier contracts which deliver to 0.0 means they will all be avoided by anyone that knows what they are doing. This means that people who really want something delivered to their nullsec station are SOL since scammers flood the market with their garbage. Oh and to the person that said their is a warning before you take the contract, I checked last night and saw no such warning. As far as I know all of my alerts are on since I still get them every time I go into low-sec at all. The biggest problem with this situation is not that this scam is avoidable (it is, no matter how ridiculously) the problem is that this flaw in game mechanics makes a huge portion of the potential courier contract market entirely unusable. Low-sec runs are the most profitable runs by far but because of this problem, I have to sift through a list of scams and ignore contracts that may or may not be legitimate since there is no way to tell outside of docking at the station before I accept. A lot of people have listed a lot of great solutions to this problem in this thread and most of them would not be that hard to implement at all. There is always going to be the contracts where a gang of the issuers buddies are waiting to ambush you so you lose the collateral but if I can manage to get my Rifter all the way to your 0.0 station, at least let me dock.
Rathelm	Posted - 2009.04.04 01:27:00 - [57] Originally by: Estel Arador Originally by: Rathelm The problem is you are wrong. And the reason I feel confident saying you are wrong is this. (...) I hate quoting myself, but: Originally by: Estel Arador That's quite irrelevant. What you're shipping doesn't matter as long as you deliver it. No matter how outrageous the collateral is, you're guaranteed to get it back as soon as the package is delivered. If I'm paying a collateral to ship something it matters to me what I'm moving. Feel free to be more reckless.


Pages: 1 [2] :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.