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Courier Scam- No chance of getting collateral back?

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Jakobslad Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.03.31 22:27:00 - [1] I started taking Courier Contracts a few days ago and was very cautious at first. After running 10 or so and all of them being completed without a hitch. I borrowed some ISK from a wealthy in-game friend and accepted a contract with a high reward and high collateral. The collateral was fairly reasonable compared to the reward and was close to other contracts I had run so I figured all was good. I looked at the contract and the route took me through low-sec and had delivery in 0.0. Low-sec was no big deal, I had done contracts there before so no biggie and I assumed 0.0 was more dangerous, but the same deal. Of course I get to the last high-sec station in my route (two jumps from delivery) and drop off my package to be safe. I warp through to the 0.0 delivery station and attempt to dock. It was about this time that I realized 0.0 is not the same as other low-sec and a wonderful thing called player-owned stations exist and that they have the right to deny docking permissions to anyone they wish. So I still have the package and I wasn't ganked, but it is pretty clear to me that I'm not going to be able to make delivery on this. I opened a petition in-game to see if there is anyway to get my collateral back but I haven't heard back yet. I saw some posts saying that people have gotten their ISK back in this situation since you have no way of knowing you won't be able to dock until you get there, so it is kind of out of your control, but also some posts saying I am SOL. Has anyone had this happen to them lately or know whether or not there is any chance of me getting my ISK back?
Grista	Posted - 2009.03.31 22:52:00 - [2] You won't get collateral back, as you've been courier scammed. The delivery station being in 0.0 should have been a tip off.
Sabrage	Posted - 2009.03.31 23:15:00 - [3] As a general rule, around half or so of the available contracts are scams and completely within the rules of the game.
Tranka Verrane Public Venture Enterprises	Posted - 2009.03.31 23:22:00 - [4] Deliberately making contracts to places that are undeliverable is considered exploit by CCP. I have heard of reimbursements for these, though I suspect it depends on the circumstances. Petition it, it can't hurt. Ingame: Channels&Mailing lists>Channels>Join>PVE>OK
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2009.03.31 23:33:00 - [5] Originally by: Tranka Verrane Petition it, it can't hurt. Major BS. It hurts all the players with legit problems who need GM help. 0.0 Outposts are not "places that are undeliverable" - plenty of people dock there, just not everyone can. OP made a mistake and instead of wasting a GMs time he should try one of the following: (1) get in touch with the outpost owners to see if they're willing to help (2) see if someone who can dock at the outpost can help (3) create a courier contract with the package to the outpost and hope it gets accepted by someone who can make the last few jumps. FREE! jumpclone service - NOW 192 locations!
Jakobslad Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.04.01 00:11:00 - [6] If I knew then what I know now etc... I have tried to contact the owner of the station to no avail; is there a way to view a Corp's list of members in-game? I did open a petition by the way; considering some of the ridiculous things I have seen people petition (blah blah won't stop spamming his Corp Recruitment Message in the New Player Channel) I hardly feel bad about this one. I have also read of people getting reimbursed in this exact situation. It is an exploit that should be fixed even if it is just something as simple as making it possible for couriers making deliveries to be allowed to dock but do nothing other than deliver the package, complete the contract, and leave. There is no reason to not already have that in place. Not only does this exploit make it possible for this situation to arise but it also drastically lowers the chances that anyone who really wants something brought to their 0.0 station will have the contract accepted.
Tranka Verrane Public Venture Enterprises	Posted - 2009.04.01 01:30:00 - [7] Originally by: Estel Arador Originally by: Tranka Verrane Petition it, it can't hurt. Major BS. It hurts all the players with legit problems who need GM help. I wouldn't normally advocate petitioning for being scammed, but this one does need some clarification. On reflection it may have been someone complaining they had had their hand slapped for it, and they may have been setting up a contract to Jove space or something, so the case may be very different, but it's worth a shot. Please post a summation of the definitive reply when you get it so we know for sure. I suspect the answer is tough cookies, but it shouldn't be up to us to judge this. And the GMs being busy with 'real' problems shouldn't be a case for stopping people petitioning for more minor problems or queries they are having, as long as they are not put into one of the urgent queues, like stuck characters. Just don't complain when it takes a few days to get answered. Ingame: Channels&Mailing lists>Channels>Join>PVE>OK
Neo Omni Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.01 02:57:00 - [8] Been there, tried that. Lost 160 million isk in the process. Learned the hard way that delivering to anything below 0.5 is hazardous. If the pirates dont get you, the scam will. Sorry you experienced this. Apparently this kind of behavior is sanctioned by CCP as they have done nothing to stop it. It doesn't take much coding to enable a system where if the destination has any restrictions, it should be noted in the contract.
Jakobslad Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.04.01 05:10:00 - [9] Don't get me wrong, I know that I made a mistake by not researching this before accepting it. You would just assume that with all of the warning messages already programmed into the game they could toss one up to let you know that the station your supposed to deliver to is player controlled and could potentially deny you docking permissions. Oh well, at the very least I learned my lesson and won't be so foolish in the future. I really wish it had been isk I earned rather than borrowed that was lost but my friend knows of the situation and understands he isn't getting paid back for awhile.
Neo Omni Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.01 05:46:00 - [10] Edited by: Neo Omni on 01/04/2009 05:47:34 What I don't understand is that with all the "law enforcement" elements in the game and CCP out to eliminate any exploits, they allow this to go on. Technically setting up such a contract constitutes "fraud" and would involve law enforcement (CONCORD). Something should be done about this because it compromises the contract system in the game and makes it almost pointless. It's as if you go and buy something on the market only to find out that you paid for nothing because it's not their waiting for you at the station. So what makes courier contracts so different CCP?

Takemikazuki Donnerkeil Industries	Posted - 2009.04.01 06:07:00 - [11] Quote: What I don't understand is that with all the "law enforcement" elements in the game and CCP out to eliminate any exploits, they allow this to go on. Technically setting up such a contract constitutes "fraud" and would involve law enforcement (CONCORD). Something should be done about this because it compromises the contract system in the game and makes it almost pointless. It's as if you go and buy something on the market only to find out that you paid for nothing because it's not their waiting for you at the station. So what makes courier contracts so different CCP? Scams don't make the system pointless. You need to learn how to discern between the legit and the fraudulent.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2009.04.01 07:50:00 - [12] Originally by: Tranka Verrane Deliberately making contracts to places that are undeliverable is considered exploit by CCP. I have heard of reimbursements for these, though I suspect it depends on the circumstances. Petition it, it can't hurt. They have to do with destinations into jove space etc, other than that GM's will NOT step in. This is the second post I see here from you in the newbie forum and it's again uninformed and wrong, you probably should stop posting advise till you actually have facts. Self-proclaimed idiot
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2009.04.01 09:34:00 - [13] Edited by: Estel Arador on 01/04/2009 09:34:11 Originally by: Jakobslad If I knew then what I know now etc... I have tried to contact the owner of the station to no avail; is there a way to view a Corp's list of members in-game? This is a good attitude. Unfortunately, there isn't. Originally by: Jakobslad I did open a petition by the way; considering some of the ridiculous things I have seen people petition (blah blah won't stop spamming his Corp Recruitment Message in the New Player Channel) I hardly feel bad about this one. This is a slightly worse attitude, but not unique to you. The problem is pretty much everyone has this idea of petitioning anything (even if it clearly isn't petitionable) because you never know if a GM is gonna make a mistake. Originally by: Jakobslad I have also read of people getting reimbursed in this exact situation. It is an exploit that should be fixed even if it is just something as simple as making it possible for couriers making deliveries to be allowed to dock but do nothing other than deliver the package, complete the contract, and leave. There is no reason to not already have that in place. Not only does this exploit make it possible for this situation to arise but it also drastically lowers the chances that anyone who really wants something brought to their 0.0 station will have the contract accepted. This is a bad attitude, it is not a exploit. Outposts are stations with hangars, offices, installations, and markets just like any other station. On top of that they're stations with docking rights, but that shouldn't mean people aren't allowed to have goods delivered there, should it? You made a mistake and it cost you some isk. It happens to everyone in Eve. I've made mistakes which have cost me over 100M isk (a piece!). Lesson learned and move on. Originally by: Tranka Verrane I wouldn't normally advocate petitioning for being scammed, but this one does need some clarification. No it doesn't - this is as clear as it can be. (See above.) FREE! jumpclone service - NOW 192 locations!
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.04.01 10:17:00 - [14] It's only a scam ATTEMPT if the contents of the package are far, far below the collateral asked. BUT ANYWAY, SCAMS ARE NOT PETITIONABLE. It would be an EXPLOIT (and thus petitionable) only if the destination was unreachable for anybody (except maybe the issuer of the contract). Then, and ONLY THEN are you supposed to petition it. If the contents are roughly the value of the collateral, it was a completely legit courier contract. It is YOU who is to be blamed for not doing the research on where you can and can not dock. Petitioning that is aking to petitioning a highsec ship loss from ganking "because you didn't know you can be killed in highsec". _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Secunda Marto	Posted - 2009.04.01 10:51:00 - [15] If you are uncertain - send a petition. Advising against petitioning is just bull****. If it is as clear cut as the know it all's here claim it will take a GM half a minute to respond. You will then have an official response and we can avoid pointless debates where everyone throws in their own interpretation of CCP's guidelines.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2009.04.01 11:00:00 - [16] Originally by: Secunda Marto If you are uncertain - send a petition. Advising against petitioning is just bull****. If it is as clear cut as the know it all's here claim it will take a GM half a minute to respond. You will then have an official response and we can avoid pointless debates where everyone throws in their own interpretation of CCP's guidelines. And that is why there's petition queues. Self-proclaimed idiot
Ivy Scorn Amarr Nethro Ore Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.04.01 11:04:00 - [17] Originally by: Akita T It is YOU who is to be blamed for not doing the research on where you can and can not dock. Give it a break, the guy is playing for a couple of days. It is in no way intuitive to a newbie that there may be stations where docking is restricted. No amount of common sense would have helped once the decision to risk traveling through 0.0 was made. Personally I'd have asked in the help channel. Your 'rich' friend might have been of help too, had you asked him. (Unless you did and he didn't know about this - which seems possible given how "far away" 0.0 can be for highsec players.) Petitioning the issue now that people have pointed out you won't get refunded seems a bit pointless, though I'd imagine GMs will make note of the most common issues and report those to the devs on a regular basis. That's not the way to be heard though.
Durzel The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2009.04.01 12:15:00 - [18] Originally by: Neo Omni Been there, tried that. Lost 160 million isk in the process. Learned the hard way that delivering to anything below 0.5 is hazardous. If the pirates dont get you, the scam will. Sorry you experienced this. Apparently this kind of behavior is sanctioned by CCP as they have done nothing to stop it. It doesn't take much coding to enable a system where if the destination has any restrictions, it should be noted in the contract. Better than that - the solution takes no coding at all. If you use your eyes and look at the map you can see if the destination is NPC 0.0 or not, and if it isn't you can take it as read that even if you did somehow make it in to the system unmolested you'd have no chance of docking.
Tranka Verrane Public Venture Enterprises	Posted - 2009.04.01 13:10:00 - [19] Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Tranka Verrane Deliberately making contracts to places that are undeliverable is considered exploit by CCP. I have heard of reimbursements for these, though I suspect it depends on the circumstances. Petition it, it can't hurt. They have to do with destinations into jove space etc, other than that GM's will NOT step in. This is the second post I see here from you in the newbie forum and it's again uninformed and wrong, you probably should stop posting advise till you actually have facts. Only the second? I post here about half a dozen times every day. If I make a mistake and someone points it out I usually go back and clarify or acknowledge it. I'm sure you have made mistakes yourself, and I have many times pointed out mistakes with other people's posts. Don't be so pompous. The man who never made a mistake never made anything. Here I have not explained myself correctly, and if you had just scrolled down a little you would have seen an adjustment. Ingame: Channels&Mailing lists>Channels>Join>PVE>OK
Extrix pSyChOTIC CareBears BrightSpark Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.01 15:35:00 - [20] Hello Jakobslad, Again sorry you had to experience a scam. I have been running Courier missions for awhile now and you can definitely tell which contracts are legit and which are fraudulent. All I can really recommend is that you do NOT accept ANY contracts going to ANY named stations. As for getting your money back, you can try contacting the owners.. but I believe you said you had no luck... Sorry!

Jakobslad Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.04.01 17:41:00 - [21] Originally by: Durzel Better than that - the solution takes no coding at all. If you use your eyes and look at the map you can see if the destination is NPC 0.0 or not, and if it isn't you can take it as read that even if you did somehow make it in to the system unmolested you'd have no chance of docking. Right and this is exactly the problem. Now anyone who really wants something delivered to their 0.0 station has no chance of making a public contract and having it accepted. I would honestly have already canceled the petition except that I still have the package and the contract is still open (though expired). Shoot me a message in-game if you need any low-volume courier runs. Anything near me with reasonable collateral/reward will be accepted.
Tandin The Knights Templar Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.04.01 18:49:00 - [22] Originally by: Jakobslad Has anyone had this happen to them lately or know whether or not there is any chance of me getting my ISK back? Your only real option is to break open the package and sell whatever is inside. "Boo hoo. Cry some more." CCP Whisper "There's no such thing as too much of a deathtrap. Y'all obviously need more deathtraps." CCP Prism X
JB Morton Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.04.01 19:00:00 - [23] Hi Jako. Your experience is exactly what happened to me, it sucks! I lost 100 million isk but I almost lost my ship too. I woke my missus up by screaming F* F*!!!! You won't get your iskies back, you need to accept it. Just do what I did, put it down to a learning experience and add the perp to your kill list. You may never see them again but it makes me feel better and reminds me to be careful and who knows, you may get a chance at retribution BTW imo a pilot should be able to look in the cargo to see what it is, that would solve the problem.
Jakobslad Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.04.01 19:29:00 - [24] Opening the package was what actually clued me into the fact that I had probably just been scammed. I usually take a peek just because it is interesting to see what people pay so much to move. I doubt that selling the Small Cargo Container I got from this whole deal is going to net me my collateral back. As I said though, the contract has been expired for over 24 hours now and it is still open. Shot in the dark here but does anyone have docking rights at BWF-ZZ?
Tandin The Knights Templar Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.04.01 19:44:00 - [25] Edited by: Tandin on 01/04/2009 19:47:54 Originally by: Jakobslad Opening the package was what actually clued me into the fact that I had probably just been scammed. I usually take a peek just because it is interesting to see what people pay so much to move. I doubt that selling the Small Cargo Container I got from this whole deal is going to net me my collateral back. Is the can packaged or assembled? It's actually possible it's full of skill books or blueprints. It's unlikely but it's possible. How much did you pay for collateral? Btw, SOME 0.0 stations are NPC and everyone can dock there. For example: FDZ4-A in the Geminate region (same region as BWZ). Always check first to see if a system has NPC sovereignty before you accept a contract. If it does, that station is (as far as I'm aware) an NPC station and free access. Check the Dotlan maps for specifics on each system/station. The ones that are NPC are likely to have plenty of resident locals who won't hesitate to shoot you if you're not careful. "Boo hoo. Cry some more." CCP Whisper "There's no such thing as too much of a deathtrap. Y'all obviously need more deathtraps." CCP Prism X
Jakobslad Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.04.01 21:19:00 - [26] The can is empty. There are probably 5 of the exact same contracts I accepted up at all times in the regions surrounding that station. Exact same cargo amount, varying reward/collateral. The collateral was a good bit; not a fortune to most players but a lot to someone as young as me. I will probably have my friend paid back in a few weeks of running the legitimate courier contracts I do.
Rathelm	Posted - 2009.04.02 06:49:00 - [27] Originally by: Jakobslad Don't get me wrong, I know that I made a mistake by not researching this before accepting it. You would just assume that with all of the warning messages already programmed into the game they could toss one up to let you know that the station your supposed to deliver to is player controlled and could potentially deny you docking permissions. Oh well, at the very least I learned my lesson and won't be so foolish in the future. I really wish it had been isk I earned rather than borrowed that was lost but my friend knows of the situation and understands he isn't getting paid back for awhile. The whole concept of collateral is if you decide to steal the item the person who put up the contract can re-buy whatever you stole. Is the collateral value of the item that much higher than the actual value of the item you were shipping? There's a reason FedEx won't let you buy a million dollar insurance policy on a bar of soap that you want to ship through them.
Rathelm	Posted - 2009.04.02 06:58:00 - [28] Originally by: Estel Arador Originally by: Jakobslad I did open a petition by the way; considering some of the ridiculous things I have seen people petition (blah blah won't stop spamming his Corp Recruitment Message in the New Player Channel) I hardly feel bad about this one. This is a slightly worse attitude, but not unique to you. The problem is pretty much everyone has this idea of petitioning anything (even if it clearly isn't petitionable) because you never know if a GM is gonna make a mistake. The GMs are the police of the game. If CCP was that concerned about reducing their GMs workload they would remove these easily exploitable systems. How hard would it be to add a, "you currently do not have docking rights at this station," message on the contract, and if they have the station's docking open at creation of the contract then the contract bestows upon you those rights when the contract is accepted. Regardless if the corp decides to change it at a later date. Another idea is if you accept a contract to a station it automatically gives you docking rights. From my own experience at coding these would be fairly straight forward additions that would remove this type of scam. Which honestly a shipping scam like this shouldn't exist. The point of Courier contracts is to facilitate movement of goods. What good does it do to the economy if people don't trust them. I'm a firm believer that any scam that exists due to poor code design should be fixed. You're never going to fix scams based off of player stupidity, like not reading what you're actually buying.
Rathelm	Posted - 2009.04.02 07:05:00 - [29] Originally by: Takemikazuki Quote: What I don't understand is that with all the "law enforcement" elements in the game and CCP out to eliminate any exploits, they allow this to go on. Technically setting up such a contract constitutes "fraud" and would involve law enforcement (CONCORD). Something should be done about this because it compromises the contract system in the game and makes it almost pointless. It's as if you go and buy something on the market only to find out that you paid for nothing because it's not their waiting for you at the station. So what makes courier contracts so different CCP? Scams don't make the system pointless. You need to learn how to discern between the legit and the fraudulent. Ironically this type of activity is by its very nature fraud. And to save you the work I took the dictionary definition and placed it here for you. Keep in mind the contract was most likely created knowing the recipient couldn't deliver the item. Main Entry:fraud Pronunciation:\ˈfrȯd\ Function:noun Etymology:Middle English fraude, from Anglo-French, from Latin fraud-, fraus Date:14th century 1 a: deceit , trickery ; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right b: an act of deceiving or misrepresenting : trick 2 a: a person who is not what he or she pretends to be : impostor ; also : one who defrauds : cheat b: one that is not what it seems or is represented to be synonyms see deception, imposture
Takemikazuki Donnerkeil Industries	Posted - 2009.04.02 07:33:00 - [30] Originally by: Rathelm Originally by: Takemikazuki Quote: What I don't understand is that with all the "law enforcement" elements in the game and CCP out to eliminate any exploits, they allow this to go on. Technically setting up such a contract constitutes "fraud" and would involve law enforcement (CONCORD). Something should be done about this because it compromises the contract system in the game and makes it almost pointless. It's as if you go and buy something on the market only to find out that you paid for nothing because it's not their waiting for you at the station. So what makes courier contracts so different CCP? Scams don't make the system pointless. You need to learn how to discern between the legit and the fraudulent. Ironically this type of activity is by its very nature fraud. And to save you the work I took the dictionary definition and placed it here for you. Keep in mind the contract was most likely created knowing the recipient couldn't deliver the item. Main Entry:fraud Pronunciation:\ˈfrȯd\ Function:noun Etymology:Middle English fraude, from Anglo-French, from Latin fraud-, fraus Date:14th century 1 a: deceit , trickery ; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right b: an act of deceiving or misrepresenting : trick 2 a: a person who is not what he or she pretends to be : impostor ; also : one who defrauds : cheat b: one that is not what it seems or is represented to be synonyms see deception, imposture I'm not arguing against the perception that the contract had a fraudulent intention. What I am arguing against is the notion that the ability to scam renders the contract system pointless. But the system isn't pointless. The potential for scams just means that one should be careful and learn to discern between the legit and the fraudulent. This is New Eden, not Earth, and the legal ramifications of certain actions don't easily compare. More responsibility is given to the individual in New Eden. If I steal the ore you spent the last hour mining the space police don't intervene, they just give you the right to retalitate. As for the ability to scam and fraud, I think these are essential to the game. It gives a high value to the trustworthy and it encourages caution in dealing with potential profitable schemes. The scams do not hinder the market - they develop it and makes it dynamic and interesting. It's kinda like a darwinian filter option. No one is forcing you to buy a 2000ISK worth module to 500 mill. No one is forcing you to accept a contract that is designed to get you ganked or loosing the collateral. No one is enforcing you to invest half your wallet into some shady IPO scheme that promise everything yet gives you nothing. Sure, it is not very pleasant to be the victim of fraud, but take it as a learning experience and move on.



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