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Xeoniya
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Posted - 2009.04.06 18:57:00 -
[31]
They might also know their cost, the neighbor region price, and be less greedy from you or be logging for several hours and know that less people will 0.01 them if they make it a heavier price to do so. They may also know how many of that item are likely to be traded in a day and want to have their items be part of those. There is also the possibility they are trying to roar the loudest to protect their turf. Sometimes they are working with a longer time frame, sure they might lose 20% but if it allows them to squeeze in another batch and make it up in volume they will do it. You have to stop thinking like a trader and think like a manufacturer. Also when you are in a region with a big buy-sell price gap, selling to the buy contract isn't always an option.
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Mystafyre
Caldari
Knights of Destiny
Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.04.06 18:58:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Bryce Lester
Can someone please explain to me why there are players who decide it's a good idea to outbid other people's buy orders at more than 100k at a time? For example, for Expanded Cargohold II the buy orders would be, say, 500,000 isk, so the next guy puts up 500,001, and the next puts up 500,002, and all of a sudden, some genius comes in and puts up an order for 650,000, killing a substantial amount of profit that could've been made on the item in the process.
What's even more frustrating is that there would sometimes be multiple large out-bidding going on for the same item at the same time, raising the buy order price by 200,000+ isk in the span of just 4 or 5 orders.
To knock you out from the business and take all the profits after you're gone. 
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flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc
Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2009.04.06 19:34:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Isaac Swift
I can think of two reasons why people would raise buy order prices high enough to hurt profits, but not high enough to kill competition. First: they think they are getting rid of competition, but they underestimated the other traders tenacity. When I first started trading, I thought that undercutting my competitors by 100isk or a thousand isk would be enough to make them back off. I understand now that people operate by degrees- if you do not undercut by enough, they will still be forced to undercut you. Movement is more important than that 20% drop in profits you initiated, and people will lemming the profit margin of an item down to 0%, as long as each undercut is a small one. Death by a thousand razors, if you will.
The second reason is of course market manipulation. I can think of a couple of ways in which inflating the regional buy orders can be profitable, and likely someone is taking advantage of that.
In my case this comes closest to what i was thinking.One guy comes in and thinks with raising high he looses competition yet doesn't make the profit low enough to back off.I am guessing he feels rather fckd at this point since he isn't going higher any more and does not update twice a day any more.
My guess his wallet is running dry and i am hoping he cant keep this up long with the extra work he has hauling.In the meantime i am following to any extend he wants and have no need to do any pickups for months before i start seeing the bottom of my wallet.In the end i want his own strategy to finish him off.
On the manipulation , i could see that work for named items.Since i only do reprocc items i am not too sure how that would fit in but it is a possibility indeed.
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Dzil
Caldari
Elamous Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.06 19:53:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Bryce Lester
Can someone please explain to me why there are players who decide it's a good idea to outbid other people's buy orders at more than 100k at a time? For example, for Expanded Cargohold II the buy orders would be, say, 500,000 isk, so the next guy puts up 500,001, and the next puts up 500,002, and all of a sudden, some genius comes in and puts up an order for 650,000, killing a substantial amount of profit that could've been made on the item in the process.
What's even more frustrating is that there would sometimes be multiple large out-bidding going on for the same item at the same time, raising the buy order price by 200,000+ isk in the span of just 4 or 5 orders.
This is called competitive pricing. The guy going up by 100k is hoping you'll be less likely to continue to sell product in that market/location. On paper it looks like he should make more money by raising by a penny, but if he can only adjust his order once or twice a week, more aggresive pricing is often a better way to maximize profits for the week.
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Beckoner Venhatha
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Posted - 2009.04.06 21:34:00 -
[35]
selling at 700K : perceived value of product by manufacturers/mission runners
buying at 500K : hoping for 200k profit per item
coming in at 600K : taking advantage of local traders greed..
If buy/sell orders do not overlap, then the true value of the item has yet to be determined
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.04.06 21:49:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Bryce Lester
Can someone please explain to me why there are players who decide it's a good idea to outbid other people's buy orders at more than 100k at a time? For example, for Expanded Cargohold II the buy orders would be, say, 500,000 isk, so the next guy puts up 500,001, and the next puts up 500,002, and all of a sudden, some genius comes in and puts up an order for 650,000, killing a substantial amount of profit that could've been made on the item in the process.
What's even more frustrating is that there would sometimes be multiple large out-bidding going on for the same item at the same time, raising the buy order price by 200,000+ isk in the span of just 4 or 5 orders.
Not everyone can be assed to deal with .01 ISK wars.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.04.06 21:50:00 -
[37]
Quote:
So again without one liners-wich you did again.EXplain in detail why someone would kill profit but not enough to kill competition and/or make more volume.Because THAT is what my original post was about and still is my biggest question.
Let me throw a question back your way.
Why do you care???
Honest. If what I do is so useless and ineffective, why do you care what I do? Why make a forum post criticising a course of action I take if it bears no impact on what you do? Let me go down my inevitable path of self destruction.
If it's so ineffective, sure, make a 0.01 ISK cut and be content that you're in control of the market again.
If you don't want to lose that much profit, then don't undercut me. But hey, guess what? If you're making 200k profit on an item, and I tear that profit margin down to only 50k, and you're lemming enough to follow me down, that's a win for me, and you're the fool for doing it, especially to then come here and criticise it.
Once again, you presume profit is someone's motivation for doing it. You're dead wrong.
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Marlenus
Caldari
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.04.07 00:30:00 -
[38]
I never mess with tiny market adjustments. I always put in orders (buy or sell) at least one or two percent, often ten or twenty percent, above or below the existing ones, and always at a nice round number (1000 ISK or a multiple thereof). This has many benefits, chief among which are:
1) Since everybody else does penny undercuts, I can tell which market orders are mine in a crowded market just by looking at the prices;
2) It moves other market participants more quickly toward their best or worst prices, letting me learn much faster whether I can trade in a given market at a margin that works for me; and
3) As many others are noted, it dramatically increases my chances of moving some volume without having to micromanage my orders, which I refuse to do.
ISK is great stuff, but I'm playing a game here, and the real commodity of value is my leisure time. I'll cheerfully swap profit for time when it comes to something as boring and unpleasant as adjusting market orders.
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Ironfleet.com |
Lo Lightshard
Insurrection Inc
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.07 01:38:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Xeoniya
You have to stop thinking like a trader and think like a manufacturer.
If all you do is trade you will not be able to guess the reasons why people appear to price irrationally.
Some items have a value above their price. Some meta level modules are worth millions to me -- they increase the output of invention jobs by a small percentage -- but they may sell for a few thousand ISK. When I need these I clean out the buy orders to a reasonable level (often raising the price from 20k to 200k) and set a buy price of 100k. I'm prepared to pay 200k so if I get undercut I'll up the buy price.
Your expanded cargo buyer may have been sent by his alliance to buy a couple of hundred, he may have received the Jita sell price from the corp wallet and thinks he can make a few ISK for his trouble by trying to get a quick discount purchase. He doesn't care if you 0.01 him, he can buy from a sell order.
These things you sell also have a use.
[IMA6E REMOVED] |
wowtard
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Posted - 2009.04.07 01:48:00 -
[40]
I'm having trouble reconciling this whole idea of "Eve is a harsh universe where you can lose it all, but them's the breaks" with "boohoo, I got outbid by 100K and I can't sustain 300% profits like that."
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Cukaz Nikanoru
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.04.07 02:54:00 -
[41]
What i find funny is right below this post is another post complaining about the people who outbid by .01 make up your minds!
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Tesal
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Posted - 2009.04.07 04:18:00 -
[42]
Sometimes its not about turning a profit at all, the people buying it intend to use it. Logistics people may need a certain item they are short of for their alliance and put out a buy order to scoop up as many as they can at a decent price quickly. In those cases the buy order may equal the build cost or even higher. From their point of view, they are saving isk by not paying sell rates.
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Clair Bear
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.04.07 05:28:00 -
[43]
Wow, lots of short term thinkers here.
Let me paint a scenario for you. Let's say I've accumulated 10,000 ME datacores. I would like 10,000 EE datacores for... stuff. Do I
1) buy from sell orders
2) put in a buy order and play .01 isk footsie
or
3) Use about 100M worth of inventory to crash the prices of damage mods and drones leveraging the lemmings who think they're teaching me a lesson, wait for EE cores to get cheap and THEN buy. Meanwhile driving away competition from manufacturing these items at nearly 0 profit, priming the market for a rebound just in time for my 90 pipeline production to finish.
There's more to industrade than babysitting 400 orders .01 isk at a time.
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dev urandom
Caldari
EVIL ALTS
Rough Necks
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Posted - 2009.04.07 14:34:00 -
[44]
sometimes i crash markets to be spiteful. someone w/ a sell order of a large amount like 200+ CCCs or something I'll buy one drop it 1m lower, watch him undercut me by .01 and lose a 200m profit. sometimes they're smart. I call it market grieving.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.04.07 14:47:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Clair Bear
There's more to industrade than babysitting 400 orders .01 isk at a time.
Shhh....they might catch on! 
I've done this with inventory before...it is a pleasure and a joy.
EBANK - Chairman of the Board | www.eve-bank.net
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IonHammer
Minmatar
Black Avatar
Lost Sheep Domain
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Posted - 2009.04.08 05:04:00 -
[46]
For people that don't trade and that don't want to pay traders markup its a fair enough method to get what you want.
I often half the sell and buy price difference especially if its over 10% i know the trader wants his margin and probably doesn't care about my low number of units bid. Then again i do see a lot of crazy stuff that looks like bot action from time to time.
enjoy
If thats your real life i'm very jealous - Petwraith |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2009.04.08 09:51:00 -
[47]
And at the same time I rather drop my price 100k to get it sold than having to change buy orders every 5 min coz someone undercut me by 0.01 - dropping that means someone will most likely buy the whole stack to sell for a higher price.
While I lose out on a bit of ISK that way, it's worth it compared to the time I would spend modifying orders all day.
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Augeas
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Posted - 2009.04.08 10:49:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Xeoniya
You have to stop thinking like a trader and think like a manufacturer.
There's no difference. Manufacturing is just another form of trading.
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Xeoniya
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Posted - 2009.04.08 21:21:00 -
[49]
But traders and manufacturers look at the problem in 2 completely different ways. Thanks for taking 1 line out of an entire paragraph in an attempt to make me look stupid.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.04.08 22:41:00 -
[50]
ah... the good ole alpha strike of market pvp
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putting the gist back into logistics |
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Ava Santiago
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.04.09 05:42:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Chribba
And at the same time I rather drop my price 100k to get it sold than having to change buy orders every 5 min coz someone undercut me by 0.01 - dropping that means someone will most likely buy the whole stack to sell for a higher price.
While I lose out on a bit of ISK that way, it's worth it compared to the time I would spend modifying orders all day.
There you go Chribba, pointing out that 100K x100 per day is greater than 200K x 10 per day. What amuses me is the people that are trapped in 0.1 isk war strategies.
Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts. |
Evo YaMing
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Posted - 2009.04.09 08:20:00 -
[52]
@Brce Lester. I assume that you are a trader. Well i am on the other side i am producing stuff like that and selling it on the market. I am also getting annoyed when i see a trader like you decreasing my sell order by 0.01 or more.
But we are sitting in the same boat. Formyself i must say i have nothiung against selling stuff directly on the market, but for that the traders have to keep the prices high, because i also need a margin.
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Augeas
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Posted - 2009.04.09 10:07:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Xeoniya
But traders and manufacturers look at the problem in 2 completely different ways. Thanks for taking 1 line out of an entire paragraph in an attempt to make me look stupid.
Actually, I was agreeing with you. The problem is indeed that manufactures and traders are looking at the problem from different angles, which I don't think is justified, because I don't see any fundamental difference between manufacturing and trading.
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ultima necat
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Posted - 2009.04.09 10:31:00 -
[54]
There are strange trends indeed.
Either bots or very confused traders...
2 days ago, i needed an infusion of cash and i dumped the content of a old hangar onto the market, at the local trade hub, at bargain prices...
And for severals sell orders, i noticed the exact same thing: crazy lemmings.
Example:
One covert-ops
Market data show several are sold everyday in the region.
Buy order are ridiculous, so i put my 1 unit sell order 250k under the first sell order (of about 20 units).
(it is still nearly double what i paid for that covops one year ago ...)
Coming home after work, i log expecting the covops to be gone, and i found 5 trader are doing the .01 isk war under my sell order, for a volume of about 100 units....
I relisted, curious, 250k under again, and by the next morning... market crash again.
Same with 2 rigs order, some t1 module, and several implants.
Why are those people crashing their market prices to prevent one sale by an outsider ?
With more expensive and less traded items, market behaved as i would expect: my underpriced items were gone by the first day, and in 2 case, the lead trader have increased his inventory, obviously with my units. But they did not attempt to match my firesale prices.
ultima necat
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Midas Man
Caldari
Dzark Innovations
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Posted - 2009.04.09 10:40:00 -
[55]
Originally by: ultima necat
Why are those people crashing their market prices to prevent one sale by an outsider ?
Some of it is stupidity.
But also a lot of traders myself included will use smaller orders when online and keep relisting everytime it sells. To other traders it looks like they are waiting for 1 or 2 to sell but you can sell through a pile of them. Because there is usually a noticable delay on market history volume it can go unnoticed for a while.
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Dzil
Caldari
Elamous Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.09 14:43:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Midas Man
Originally by: ultima necat
Why are those people crashing their market prices to prevent one sale by an outsider ?
Some of it is stupidity.
But also a lot of traders myself included will use smaller orders when online and keep relisting everytime it sells. To other traders it looks like they are waiting for 1 or 2 to sell but you can sell through a pile of them. Because there is usually a noticable delay on market history volume it can go unnoticed for a while.
This.
The same reason people shoot rookie ships in nullsec. It doesn't matter whether you were a threat, you were perceived as a threat.
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Anvalor
Gallente
Germania Inc.
D0GMA
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Posted - 2009.04.09 14:48:00 -
[57]
I do not care what others think about me and my orders in market. If i see that someone in a system where i sell a t2 ship for example, sells his at 122 mil and all close regions do at 115 mil then i just underbid him and sell also at 116 or 115. Allways worked for me and i do not have to babysit my orders when i have fun killing and losing ships in that time far away. 
Stop complaining about others and let them play the game how they like it. And even if some people (not me) decide that the minerals they mine are free so they can sell at build price, let them do it. If its fun for them , then who cares.
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Drahcir Nasom
Independent Manufacturers
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Posted - 2009.04.10 11:22:00 -
[58]
What a lot of people don't taken into account from a selling point of view is that there are still some people building from T2 BPOs. Take the Expanded Cargohold 2 as an example, You might be buying at 600K somewhere and selling at 700K somewhere else, making 100K pu. Now I come in and start selling at 625K, if you undercut me, your profit goes down to 25K pu, but I don't care because what I'm selling only cost me 24K to make and so my profit is around the 600K pu mark. I can make 500 EC2 every week @ 24K pu and if I can shift all 500 @ 625K making 300M or only 250 of them @ 725K making 175M, I know which I'll go for.
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Mystafyre
Caldari
First Clan Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.10 11:46:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Mystafyre on 10/04/2009 11:47:06
1) Get rid of other buyers
2) Manipulate price higher by creating 'fog' so he can get better price of his items
3) Time is money
For example, if trader have 1000 units T2 Capacitor Recharger.
Highest buy order is 550k and lowest sell order is 880k.
Trader sets following buy orders for the same item,
575k 2 items
580k 3 items
595k 1 item
615k 4 items
You get the picture. Then large buyer comes and outbids it with 616k with 500 units.
Trader can now get rid of half of his bulk load with much higher price. He could have tossed them on the sell orders and out bid the lowest sell order, but he wanted to sell them fast and he had bought them with 300k average price from ignorant players.
Of course numbers in this example are totally fiction, but that's what many are doing.
So if you are having your 0.01 war in that hub and you get your profits by sitting in station and buying and selling that T2 Capacitor Recharger, sure that cuts your profits.
Like I said, time is money, and managing your orders every 4 minutes is waste of money. It's easy way of trading, just find a item at trade hub, keep your orders at the top all the time on both sides.
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Saya Hikouka
New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2009.04.10 18:35:00 -
[60]
There is also another type of trader. The mission trader, one who could give a care less about manufacturers or other skilled market traders.
The mission trader has already made his/her profit from the mission and bounty rewards, selling the stock is icing on that cake and it really don't matter what he/she sells an item(s) at because he/she already profited once is extending the mission profits by selling the loot. Maybe they don't sell the items at all and just reprocess the loot for the mins to manufacture later, thus lowering the apparent cost. I also keep a fairly massive inventory in many places, thanks to my missioning.
For me the buy orders are a fun game to mess with the market. I don't have anything to lose and everything to gain. Because if I can run you all out of my region then I can set MY price for an item and make a decent price.
Now If I salvage and manufacture say CCC rigs, then my actual cost is sickeningly low, since all my salvage comes from missions and corp mates/alliance members.
I have the ability on multiple levels to do damage to any number of markets I choose to play in. Especially if I can motivate others to do what I am doing, within my corp/alliance, since they very obviously see the ISK I'm capable of making.
It is simply market manipulation at it's finest. There are times I'll take a loss to run the competition out of an area I choose to dabble in. Adapt or die...
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If it was easy it wouldn't be EVE. |
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