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Bryce Lester
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Posted - 2009.04.06 02:35:00 -
[1]
Can someone please explain to me why there are players who decide it's a good idea to outbid other people's buy orders at more than 100k at a time? For example, for Expanded Cargohold II the buy orders would be, say, 500,000 isk, so the next guy puts up 500,001, and the next puts up 500,002, and all of a sudden, some genius comes in and puts up an order for 650,000, killing a substantial amount of profit that could've been made on the item in the process.
What's even more frustrating is that there would sometimes be multiple large out-bidding going on for the same item at the same time, raising the buy order price by 200,000+ isk in the span of just 4 or 5 orders.
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GPszith
Gallente
Gypsy Productions
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Posted - 2009.04.06 02:41:00 -
[2]
You will get several responses to this..but it really boils down to dealing with what people throw your way. They know how to make a profit (or they will lose money) based on what they are doing.
Your job is to work around that.
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-GPszith
wtb a sig |
Eliana d'Arlene
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Posted - 2009.04.06 02:43:00 -
[3]
Buddy... deal. Some trader just don't have time for 0.01 isk war. They want to buy you off the market. I do that all the time and I see a bunch of my competitors drop the race. Wait for few hours.. and you can safely lower your buy orders again.
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Sasha Kiki
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Posted - 2009.04.06 02:44:00 -
[4]
higher buy order = faster.
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Sir Elliot
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Posted - 2009.04.06 02:49:00 -
[5]
Dear Bryce,
Please consult the 3rd and 4th posts in this thread.
In Eve, volume is king for profit. If my goal is to pull down, say, 250m a day, I'm going to need to turn over a lot of goods.
Also, my short term profit is always aided by a lack of competition.
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Sir Elliot
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Posted - 2009.04.06 02:50:00 -
[6]
Also, you could just bid 650,000.01
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Sola Veritas
Minmatar
Galactic Master Business academy
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Posted - 2009.04.06 03:23:00 -
[7]
There is always a method to the madness.
Wellą almost always.
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Aviditas
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Posted - 2009.04.06 03:52:00 -
[8]
I play the market about 80% of my time in EVE. As a previous poster said, they throw around financial muscle (but not much brain) because they 'dont have time for the .01 isk game.' That quote is all you need to know to defeat such people. If you really cant figure the solution from such a blatant hint, the market is not for you.
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis
PuPPet MasTers
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Posted - 2009.04.06 05:38:00 -
[9]
Because you won't remove anybody from your market by playing .01 ISK games. The fact you and countless others get ****ed when it happens further proves why its a valid strategy.
Less competition = less hassle and more profit
***
Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space
Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2
WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Ji Sama
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Posted - 2009.04.06 05:50:00 -
[10]
press the buy order up? and then sell out? some traders will pay handsomely to get rid of you fast..
This is a signature not related to EVE |
Hibatchi
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Posted - 2009.04.06 06:08:00 -
[11]
 Originally by: Artemis Rose
Because you won't remove anybody from your market by playing .01 ISK games. The fact you and countless others get ****ed when it happens further proves why its a valid strategy.
Less competition = less hassle and more profit
One of the sillier comments Ive seen made on this board. Of course you can drive people from a market .01 isk at a time. In fact its when I see some fool driving prices up or down in big chunks tha I take special care to snake his but right out of that market. He's looking for the easy no hassle trade and I make very sure its doesnt happen. 
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flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc
Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2009.04.06 07:20:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Bryce Lester
Can someone please explain to me why there are players who decide it's a good idea to outbid other people's buy orders at more than 100k at a time? For example, for Expanded Cargohold II the buy orders would be, say, 500,000 isk, so the next guy puts up 500,001, and the next puts up 500,002, and all of a sudden, some genius comes in and puts up an order for 650,000, killing a substantial amount of profit that could've been made on the item in the process.
What's even more frustrating is that there would sometimes be multiple large out-bidding going on for the same item at the same time, raising the buy order price by 200,000+ isk in the span of just 4 or 5 orders.
Endless discussion here mate.I agree with you 100% yet most people in here hate the 0.01 game and some even find it 'disrespectfull'.
Besides regional orders i have one character in jita for the occasional profit-items.At most i have 15 orders in jita running.Last week i had 2 items making a profit of 300k and we had that going for bout 5 days with 3 guys.Just adding the 0.01 every time and giving each other a nice profit in between.Then someone jumps in and makes it a 50k profit killing a high profit item.Fine now some might say: he kills competition this way.NO all the others including me still felt a 50k profit was good enough and now we have 4 guys fighting over a 50k instead of a 300k profit and all playing the 0.01 since the profits not worth giving in any mark ups.
This happens every week.
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Black Mack
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Posted - 2009.04.06 07:50:00 -
[13]
I've noticed that this is an especially common problem when dealing with items that aren't manufactured. Mission runners do not have much stake in maintaining a stable price for an item, and they are prone to undercut each other by large percentages to sell their items off quickly. Get enough mission runners together, and you have the lemming effect at it's best. It's frustrating for us, because we live in the margins between buy and sell orders. I believe this is an important part of being a trader, though: we need to be able to impose some sort of order on the market, either by holding an item's price stable, or manipulating it with a long-term plan in mind. Somebody undercuts the market by a significant amount, I just buy him up and relist. Somebody drives the buy orders up too high, I get them cheaper somewhere else and drive his prices down again. I like to think of myself as a gardener, growing isk in my backyard 
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Buga Buga
Sajuuk Fleet
Crimson Dragons
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Posted - 2009.04.06 10:59:00 -
[14]
Some are trading (.01 isk) some are buying (+100k isk) :)
Same goes for selling, some trade some sell. Those that trade keep the .01 rule, those that buy add 100k
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.04.06 11:19:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 06/04/2009 11:19:26
Can someone please explain to me why there are players who decide it's a good idea to outbid people's buy orders who outbid by 100k at a time, by only 1 isk? For example, for Expanded Cargohold II the buy orders would be, say, 500,000 isk, so the I put up 600,000, and all of a sudden, some genius comes in and puts up an order for 600,001, and then another genius at 600,002, killing their substantial profit at the ignorance of the fact I clearly want to buy it more than they do, and I'm willing to sacrifice profit while I'm at it.
What's even more frustrating is that there would sometimes be multiple 1-isk out-bidding going on for the same item at the same time, raising all buy orders above mine, forcing me to undercut again by 100k because I desperately need that item.
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Shintai
Gallente
Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.04.06 11:34:00 -
[16]
And the 0.01 to 1 isk increase is what? ******ed like hell?
I¦m one of those that does a higher increase or decrease. Simply because most sellers/buyers run tradebots thats easy to fool.
--------------------------------------
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Ms Delerium
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Posted - 2009.04.06 11:40:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Ms Delerium on 06/04/2009 11:41:29
"They did it for the lulz" 
This thread is the proof marketcrashing can be funny as it generates hatemails and hateposts!!
Dont get me wrong I know what you feel. I have been in both sides of this, I usually like to experience all the parts of the game to enrich my experience.
Try yourself crashing some market and get big laughs, and sometimes profit. Funniest thing is watching all the lemmings go to 600,000.01 then you set buy order at 656,777.71 and they go 656,777.72 LMAO so pathetic how you control them 
Now apart from the lulz factor, think of the profits. Specially with sell orders. Everybody is selling at 750,000isk (0.01 wars) while buy orders are at 500,000. Now you can sell lets say 100items at an average price, for example 650,000isk. There is a big probability one of the 750k sellers dont wanna be a lemming and just buy all your stuff in order to remove "your moronic undercut". Congrats, you have done 65millions. Big, big laughs and profits if you come back again and set a new 100x sell order at 650,000 isk
In the end market is PVP and provides lot of entertainment and rage on the process
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.04.06 11:55:00 -
[18]
Quote:
This thread is the proof marketcrashing can be funny as it generates hatemails and hateposts!!
This really :)
I *can't* be at the computer 24/7 to babysit my orders, and I *know* the only reason people do that is to ensure they get the sales with as little reduction in profit as possible.
With that in mind, I stand no chance of ever staying the cheapest sell order, so I smash your profits to bits. If you really want to follow me lower to keep getting the sales, go for it. If you cry about it, I'll pour your tears into a glass and enjoy them just like I do with every other person who cries about people who undercut by more than 1/0.01 ISK.
You **** me off with your 24/7 babysitting, I'm just getting even, not angry 
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Midas Man
Caldari
Dzark Innovations
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Posted - 2009.04.06 12:28:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Bryce Lester
Can someone please explain to me why there are players who decide it's a good idea to outbid other people's buy orders at more than 100k at a time? For example, for Expanded Cargohold II the buy orders would be, say, 500,000 isk, so the next guy puts up 500,001, and the next puts up 500,002, and all of a sudden, some genius comes in and puts up an order for 650,000, killing a substantial amount of profit that could've been made on the item in the process.
What's even more frustrating is that there would sometimes be multiple large out-bidding going on for the same item at the same time, raising the buy order price by 200,000+ isk in the span of just 4 or 5 orders.
Expanded Cargohold II sell for 1.5-2mil a peice in alot of high sec stations fairly quickly.
Alot of regional traders will move Tech II items from jita else where. They will try to buy as quickly as possible, If you 0.01isk them you hurt your profit more than you hurt theirs so thereofre they will usually hit you for another 50K etc. Even taking prices to the sell price, they will still see a profit and will see your post too double win 
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Sir Elliot
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Posted - 2009.04.06 13:38:00 -
[20]
You presume you need the item more then them. If so, buy it from a seller.
Also, trading is a form of PvP. It's not about fairness, it's about making as much money as possible-- preferably while bankrupting your competition in the process.
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flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc
Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2009.04.06 14:17:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Quote:
This thread is the proof marketcrashing can be funny as it generates hatemails and hateposts!!
This really :)
I *can't* be at the computer 24/7 to babysit my orders, and I *know* the only reason people do that is to ensure they get the sales with as little reduction in profit as possible.
With that in mind, I stand no chance of ever staying the cheapest sell order, so I smash your profits to bits. If you really want to follow me lower to keep getting the sales, go for it. If you cry about it, I'll pour your tears into a glass and enjoy them just like I do with every other person who cries about people who undercut by more than 1/0.01 ISK.
You **** me off with your 24/7 babysitting, I'm just getting even, not angry
For sell orders i understand this but as i explained for buy orders at times i don't.I run 500-ish orders at the moment of wich bout 30% is heavy competitive.Competitors have brought the profit per item from 300% to only 40% yet still the same people are bidding on it.Also below those orders there are NO orders standing so if the 0.01isk game was played we'd still have the same volume shared over the same traders but with a MUCH higher profit.And THAT i do not understand.
If you want the competition to go you make the profit too little for others to even bother , now i mostly see a verry high decrease in profit but still enough for the competition to join.This makes no sence.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.04.06 14:32:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 06/04/2009 14:33:21
Quote:
For sell orders i understand this but as i explained for buy orders at times i don't.I run 500-ish orders at the moment of wich bout 30% is heavy competitive.Competitors have brought the profit per item from 300% to only 40% yet still the same people are bidding on it.Also below those orders there are NO orders standing so if the 0.01isk game was played we'd still have the same volume shared over the same traders but with a MUCH higher profit.And THAT i do not understand.
If you want the competition to go you make the profit too little for others to even bother , now i mostly see a verry high decrease in profit but still enough for the competition to join.This makes no sence.
Why are you so centric around profit being the only reason behind placing a buy order? If you stopped being so narrow minded it might start to make sense to you.
I suggest re-reading the first response:
Quote:
You will get several responses to this..but it really boils down to dealing with what people throw your way. They know how to make a profit (or they will lose money) based on what they are doing.
Your job is to work around that.
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Sophie Daigneau
CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.06 14:41:00 -
[23]
I'm absolutely one of the people the OP is referring to. I'm not a trader, I just need a limited amount of raw materials per week to keep my production lines rolling. For that, I'll increase buy orders aggressively until the order is filled.
Yea, I know what you're going to say, I'm ignoring profits I could be making from being "wiser" with my trading, I don't care, I've got better things to do with my time. And no, I can't just grab sell orders as some of the products I'm buying typically aren't well-stocked on the sell side.
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Etara Silverblade
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.04.06 14:44:00 -
[24]
What the OP is missing is that someone has to want to sell to these buy orders instead of placing a sell order. If I see a buy order for 500,000 (or anything close) and the sale orders are around 700,000 isk then there's more chance that I'll just place a sales order instead. But if someone wants the goods and puts in the buy order at 600,000 isk then I might consider it. So by placing a higher buy order they aren't just ensuring that they get the item, but that they get more of the items since people are more likely to sell to buy orders and not place their own sale orders and lower the price.
So by placing buy orders closer to the sale orders you are increasing your profit because you'll be able to turn over a larger amount of goods in a shorter time frame.
(The other factors of not being in it for profit are also valid, some people place buy orders because they want the goods and they just don't want to pay the sale prices.)
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flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc
Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2009.04.06 14:54:00 -
[25]
Edited by: flakeys on 06/04/2009 14:55:27
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 06/04/2009 14:33:21
Quote:
For sell orders i understand this but as i explained for buy orders at times i don't.I run 500-ish orders at the moment of wich bout 30% is heavy competitive.Competitors have brought the profit per item from 300% to only 40% yet still the same people are bidding on it.Also below those orders there are NO orders standing so if the 0.01isk game was played we'd still have the same volume shared over the same traders but with a MUCH higher profit.And THAT i do not understand.
If you want the competition to go you make the profit too little for others to even bother , now i mostly see a verry high decrease in profit but still enough for the competition to join.This makes no sence.
Why are you so centric around profit being the only reason behind placing a buy order? If you stopped being so narrow minded it might start to make sense to you.
I suggest re-reading the first response:
Quote:
You will get several responses to this..but it really boils down to dealing with what people throw your way. They know how to make a profit (or they will lose money) based on what they are doing.
Your job is to work around that.
Ok so then open my mind and enlighten me.
I am running these orders for 6 months.I have been getting a crapload of volume , same as now.Only difference is one person decides to place the orders much higher.
So volume-same
Number of competitors-same
Profit-WAY less
I know they are making a profit , as am i and also know they could make a lot more profit as i did.I am not here to complain because i am still making verry good profit specially since i have multiple regions under my wing and this example only goes for one region.Way i worked around it is take a 3rd region.
Now you open my mind without giving one-sentence remarks and actually explain to me why does someone let go of a 200% or more return knowing they won't kill competition nor get better volumes.
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HawkBlade
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.04.06 15:07:00 -
[26]
I am not one who destroys markets simply because I can though it should be said that this is a valid reason. I will, however, destroy a market that I'm leaving once I've gotten out of it what I want. Doing so serves two purposes:
Firstly, it is a fond farewell to all my competitors who have made my life so rewarding while I was with them. Nothing fills my heart with warmth like repaying people so deserving of my love.
Secondly, often I point out that one does not necessarily lose if someone else wins. Yet in market PvP leaving the field to those still at it allows for someone to possibly reap even greater rewards than you yourself did. And it is hard to know if their winning today is going to be the cause of you losing tomorrow... so you block them. For a time at least.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.04.06 15:34:00 -
[27]
Quote:
Now you open my mind without giving one-sentence remarks and actually explain to me why does someone let go of a 200% or more return knowing they won't kill competition nor get better volumes.
Because they kill 200% of their competitions profits to boot? Just one reason for starters.
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Creepin
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Posted - 2009.04.06 15:47:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Creepin on 06/04/2009 15:48:10
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 06/04/2009 11:19:26
Can someone please explain to me why there are players who decide it's a good idea to outbid people's buy orders who outbid by 100k at a time, by only 1 isk? For example, for Expanded Cargohold II the buy orders would be, say, 500,000 isk, so the I put up 600,000, and all of a sudden, some genius comes in and puts up an order for 600,001, and then another genius at 600,002, killing their substantial profit at the ignorance of the fact I clearly want to buy it more than they do, and I'm willing to sacrifice profit while I'm at it.
What's even more frustrating is that there would sometimes be multiple 1-isk out-bidding going on for the same item at the same time, raising all buy orders above mine, forcing me to undercut again by 100k because I desperately need that item.
It's because those who sell should humbly sell to the buy order, and those who buy should likewise humbly buy from sell order and be happy with it, leaving changing price to those who trade - simple as that.
When I was trading on market, I hated it when me and 10 other traders do our quiet 0.01 isk dance and then all of sudden some genious pops in and undercut for 10 mill because he's not here to trade but to sell (or buy). I always try to undercut such guy for mocking 0.01 isk as hard as possible just to teach him a simple lesson: if you come to sell, sell to buy order and don't meddle with our isk game, same for buy.
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flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc
Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2009.04.06 16:11:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Quote:
Now you open my mind without giving one-sentence remarks and actually explain to me why does someone let go of a 200% or more return knowing they won't kill competition nor get better volumes.
Because they kill 200% of their competitions profits to boot? Just one reason for starters.
Now i return the question : are you reading what's typed.
Still the same regional traders-still the same volume for everyone only difference is profit per item is way down because one guy thought he'd kill competition by raising his amount a LOT.What he didn't do was raise it so much that it is allmost unprofitbale.
Hence why still the same competition as before he entered.The volume also is still the same because the station orders where a lot higher from the start so he didn't eliminate any of those either.
That is what i want to know: why kill your profit but not enough to ensure you kill the competition.
So again without one liners-wich you did again.EXplain in detail why someone would kill profit but not enough to kill competition and/or make more volume.Because THAT is what my original post was about and still is my biggest question.
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Isaac Swift
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Posted - 2009.04.06 18:04:00 -
[30]
I can think of two reasons why people would raise buy order prices high enough to hurt profits, but not high enough to kill competition. First: they think they are getting rid of competition, but they underestimated the other traders tenacity. When I first started trading, I thought that undercutting my competitors by 100isk or a thousand isk would be enough to make them back off. I understand now that people operate by degrees- if you do not undercut by enough, they will still be forced to undercut you. Movement is more important than that 20% drop in profits you initiated, and people will lemming the profit margin of an item down to 0%, as long as each undercut is a small one. Death by a thousand razors, if you will.
The second reason is of course market manipulation. I can think of a couple of ways in which inflating the regional buy orders can be profitable, and likely someone is taking advantage of that.
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Xeoniya
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Posted - 2009.04.06 18:57:00 -
[31]
They might also know their cost, the neighbor region price, and be less greedy from you or be logging for several hours and know that less people will 0.01 them if they make it a heavier price to do so. They may also know how many of that item are likely to be traded in a day and want to have their items be part of those. There is also the possibility they are trying to roar the loudest to protect their turf. Sometimes they are working with a longer time frame, sure they might lose 20% but if it allows them to squeeze in another batch and make it up in volume they will do it. You have to stop thinking like a trader and think like a manufacturer. Also when you are in a region with a big buy-sell price gap, selling to the buy contract isn't always an option.
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Mystafyre
Caldari
Knights of Destiny
Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.04.06 18:58:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Bryce Lester
Can someone please explain to me why there are players who decide it's a good idea to outbid other people's buy orders at more than 100k at a time? For example, for Expanded Cargohold II the buy orders would be, say, 500,000 isk, so the next guy puts up 500,001, and the next puts up 500,002, and all of a sudden, some genius comes in and puts up an order for 650,000, killing a substantial amount of profit that could've been made on the item in the process.
What's even more frustrating is that there would sometimes be multiple large out-bidding going on for the same item at the same time, raising the buy order price by 200,000+ isk in the span of just 4 or 5 orders.
To knock you out from the business and take all the profits after you're gone.
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flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc
Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2009.04.06 19:34:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Isaac Swift
I can think of two reasons why people would raise buy order prices high enough to hurt profits, but not high enough to kill competition. First: they think they are getting rid of competition, but they underestimated the other traders tenacity. When I first started trading, I thought that undercutting my competitors by 100isk or a thousand isk would be enough to make them back off. I understand now that people operate by degrees- if you do not undercut by enough, they will still be forced to undercut you. Movement is more important than that 20% drop in profits you initiated, and people will lemming the profit margin of an item down to 0%, as long as each undercut is a small one. Death by a thousand razors, if you will.
The second reason is of course market manipulation. I can think of a couple of ways in which inflating the regional buy orders can be profitable, and likely someone is taking advantage of that.
In my case this comes closest to what i was thinking.One guy comes in and thinks with raising high he looses competition yet doesn't make the profit low enough to back off.I am guessing he feels rather fckd at this point since he isn't going higher any more and does not update twice a day any more.
My guess his wallet is running dry and i am hoping he cant keep this up long with the extra work he has hauling.In the meantime i am following to any extend he wants and have no need to do any pickups for months before i start seeing the bottom of my wallet.In the end i want his own strategy to finish him off.
On the manipulation , i could see that work for named items.Since i only do reprocc items i am not too sure how that would fit in but it is a possibility indeed.
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Dzil
Caldari
Elamous Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.06 19:53:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Bryce Lester
Can someone please explain to me why there are players who decide it's a good idea to outbid other people's buy orders at more than 100k at a time? For example, for Expanded Cargohold II the buy orders would be, say, 500,000 isk, so the next guy puts up 500,001, and the next puts up 500,002, and all of a sudden, some genius comes in and puts up an order for 650,000, killing a substantial amount of profit that could've been made on the item in the process.
What's even more frustrating is that there would sometimes be multiple large out-bidding going on for the same item at the same time, raising the buy order price by 200,000+ isk in the span of just 4 or 5 orders.
This is called competitive pricing. The guy going up by 100k is hoping you'll be less likely to continue to sell product in that market/location. On paper it looks like he should make more money by raising by a penny, but if he can only adjust his order once or twice a week, more aggresive pricing is often a better way to maximize profits for the week.
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Beckoner Venhatha
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Posted - 2009.04.06 21:34:00 -
[35]
selling at 700K : perceived value of product by manufacturers/mission runners
buying at 500K : hoping for 200k profit per item
coming in at 600K : taking advantage of local traders greed..
If buy/sell orders do not overlap, then the true value of the item has yet to be determined
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.04.06 21:49:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Bryce Lester
Can someone please explain to me why there are players who decide it's a good idea to outbid other people's buy orders at more than 100k at a time? For example, for Expanded Cargohold II the buy orders would be, say, 500,000 isk, so the next guy puts up 500,001, and the next puts up 500,002, and all of a sudden, some genius comes in and puts up an order for 650,000, killing a substantial amount of profit that could've been made on the item in the process.
What's even more frustrating is that there would sometimes be multiple large out-bidding going on for the same item at the same time, raising the buy order price by 200,000+ isk in the span of just 4 or 5 orders.
Not everyone can be assed to deal with .01 ISK wars.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.04.06 21:50:00 -
[37]
Quote:
So again without one liners-wich you did again.EXplain in detail why someone would kill profit but not enough to kill competition and/or make more volume.Because THAT is what my original post was about and still is my biggest question.
Let me throw a question back your way.
Why do you care???
Honest. If what I do is so useless and ineffective, why do you care what I do? Why make a forum post criticising a course of action I take if it bears no impact on what you do? Let me go down my inevitable path of self destruction.
If it's so ineffective, sure, make a 0.01 ISK cut and be content that you're in control of the market again.
If you don't want to lose that much profit, then don't undercut me. But hey, guess what? If you're making 200k profit on an item, and I tear that profit margin down to only 50k, and you're lemming enough to follow me down, that's a win for me, and you're the fool for doing it, especially to then come here and criticise it.
Once again, you presume profit is someone's motivation for doing it. You're dead wrong.
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Marlenus
Caldari
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.04.07 00:30:00 -
[38]
I never mess with tiny market adjustments. I always put in orders (buy or sell) at least one or two percent, often ten or twenty percent, above or below the existing ones, and always at a nice round number (1000 ISK or a multiple thereof). This has many benefits, chief among which are:
1) Since everybody else does penny undercuts, I can tell which market orders are mine in a crowded market just by looking at the prices;
2) It moves other market participants more quickly toward their best or worst prices, letting me learn much faster whether I can trade in a given market at a margin that works for me; and
3) As many others are noted, it dramatically increases my chances of moving some volume without having to micromanage my orders, which I refuse to do.
ISK is great stuff, but I'm playing a game here, and the real commodity of value is my leisure time. I'll cheerfully swap profit for time when it comes to something as boring and unpleasant as adjusting market orders.
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Ironfleet.com |
Lo Lightshard
Insurrection Inc
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.07 01:38:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Xeoniya
You have to stop thinking like a trader and think like a manufacturer.
If all you do is trade you will not be able to guess the reasons why people appear to price irrationally.
Some items have a value above their price. Some meta level modules are worth millions to me -- they increase the output of invention jobs by a small percentage -- but they may sell for a few thousand ISK. When I need these I clean out the buy orders to a reasonable level (often raising the price from 20k to 200k) and set a buy price of 100k. I'm prepared to pay 200k so if I get undercut I'll up the buy price.
Your expanded cargo buyer may have been sent by his alliance to buy a couple of hundred, he may have received the Jita sell price from the corp wallet and thinks he can make a few ISK for his trouble by trying to get a quick discount purchase. He doesn't care if you 0.01 him, he can buy from a sell order.
These things you sell also have a use.
[IMA6E REMOVED] |
wowtard
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Posted - 2009.04.07 01:48:00 -
[40]
I'm having trouble reconciling this whole idea of "Eve is a harsh universe where you can lose it all, but them's the breaks" with "boohoo, I got outbid by 100K and I can't sustain 300% profits like that."
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Cukaz Nikanoru
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.04.07 02:54:00 -
[41]
What i find funny is right below this post is another post complaining about the people who outbid by .01 make up your minds!
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Tesal
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Posted - 2009.04.07 04:18:00 -
[42]
Sometimes its not about turning a profit at all, the people buying it intend to use it. Logistics people may need a certain item they are short of for their alliance and put out a buy order to scoop up as many as they can at a decent price quickly. In those cases the buy order may equal the build cost or even higher. From their point of view, they are saving isk by not paying sell rates.
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Clair Bear
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.04.07 05:28:00 -
[43]
Wow, lots of short term thinkers here.
Let me paint a scenario for you. Let's say I've accumulated 10,000 ME datacores. I would like 10,000 EE datacores for... stuff. Do I
1) buy from sell orders
2) put in a buy order and play .01 isk footsie
or
3) Use about 100M worth of inventory to crash the prices of damage mods and drones leveraging the lemmings who think they're teaching me a lesson, wait for EE cores to get cheap and THEN buy. Meanwhile driving away competition from manufacturing these items at nearly 0 profit, priming the market for a rebound just in time for my 90 pipeline production to finish.
There's more to industrade than babysitting 400 orders .01 isk at a time.
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dev urandom
Caldari
EVIL ALTS
Rough Necks
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Posted - 2009.04.07 14:34:00 -
[44]
sometimes i crash markets to be spiteful. someone w/ a sell order of a large amount like 200+ CCCs or something I'll buy one drop it 1m lower, watch him undercut me by .01 and lose a 200m profit. sometimes they're smart. I call it market grieving.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.04.07 14:47:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Clair Bear
There's more to industrade than babysitting 400 orders .01 isk at a time.
Shhh....they might catch on!
I've done this with inventory before...it is a pleasure and a joy.
EBANK - Chairman of the Board | www.eve-bank.net
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IonHammer
Minmatar
Black Avatar
Lost Sheep Domain
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Posted - 2009.04.08 05:04:00 -
[46]
For people that don't trade and that don't want to pay traders markup its a fair enough method to get what you want.
I often half the sell and buy price difference especially if its over 10% i know the trader wants his margin and probably doesn't care about my low number of units bid. Then again i do see a lot of crazy stuff that looks like bot action from time to time.
enjoy
If thats your real life i'm very jealous - Petwraith |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2009.04.08 09:51:00 -
[47]
And at the same time I rather drop my price 100k to get it sold than having to change buy orders every 5 min coz someone undercut me by 0.01 - dropping that means someone will most likely buy the whole stack to sell for a higher price.
While I lose out on a bit of ISK that way, it's worth it compared to the time I would spend modifying orders all day.
- |
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Augeas
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Posted - 2009.04.08 10:49:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Xeoniya
You have to stop thinking like a trader and think like a manufacturer.
There's no difference. Manufacturing is just another form of trading.
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Xeoniya
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Posted - 2009.04.08 21:21:00 -
[49]
But traders and manufacturers look at the problem in 2 completely different ways. Thanks for taking 1 line out of an entire paragraph in an attempt to make me look stupid.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.04.08 22:41:00 -
[50]
ah... the good ole alpha strike of market pvp
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putting the gist back into logistics |
Ava Santiago
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.04.09 05:42:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Chribba
And at the same time I rather drop my price 100k to get it sold than having to change buy orders every 5 min coz someone undercut me by 0.01 - dropping that means someone will most likely buy the whole stack to sell for a higher price.
While I lose out on a bit of ISK that way, it's worth it compared to the time I would spend modifying orders all day.
There you go Chribba, pointing out that 100K x100 per day is greater than 200K x 10 per day. What amuses me is the people that are trapped in 0.1 isk war strategies.
Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts. |
Evo YaMing
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Posted - 2009.04.09 08:20:00 -
[52]
@Brce Lester. I assume that you are a trader. Well i am on the other side i am producing stuff like that and selling it on the market. I am also getting annoyed when i see a trader like you decreasing my sell order by 0.01 or more.
But we are sitting in the same boat. Formyself i must say i have nothiung against selling stuff directly on the market, but for that the traders have to keep the prices high, because i also need a margin.
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Augeas
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Posted - 2009.04.09 10:07:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Xeoniya
But traders and manufacturers look at the problem in 2 completely different ways. Thanks for taking 1 line out of an entire paragraph in an attempt to make me look stupid.
Actually, I was agreeing with you. The problem is indeed that manufactures and traders are looking at the problem from different angles, which I don't think is justified, because I don't see any fundamental difference between manufacturing and trading.
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ultima necat
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Posted - 2009.04.09 10:31:00 -
[54]
There are strange trends indeed.
Either bots or very confused traders...
2 days ago, i needed an infusion of cash and i dumped the content of a old hangar onto the market, at the local trade hub, at bargain prices...
And for severals sell orders, i noticed the exact same thing: crazy lemmings.
Example:
One covert-ops
Market data show several are sold everyday in the region.
Buy order are ridiculous, so i put my 1 unit sell order 250k under the first sell order (of about 20 units).
(it is still nearly double what i paid for that covops one year ago ...)
Coming home after work, i log expecting the covops to be gone, and i found 5 trader are doing the .01 isk war under my sell order, for a volume of about 100 units....
I relisted, curious, 250k under again, and by the next morning... market crash again.
Same with 2 rigs order, some t1 module, and several implants.
Why are those people crashing their market prices to prevent one sale by an outsider ?
With more expensive and less traded items, market behaved as i would expect: my underpriced items were gone by the first day, and in 2 case, the lead trader have increased his inventory, obviously with my units. But they did not attempt to match my firesale prices.
ultima necat
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Midas Man
Caldari
Dzark Innovations
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Posted - 2009.04.09 10:40:00 -
[55]
Originally by: ultima necat
Why are those people crashing their market prices to prevent one sale by an outsider ?
Some of it is stupidity.
But also a lot of traders myself included will use smaller orders when online and keep relisting everytime it sells. To other traders it looks like they are waiting for 1 or 2 to sell but you can sell through a pile of them. Because there is usually a noticable delay on market history volume it can go unnoticed for a while.
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Dzil
Caldari
Elamous Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.09 14:43:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Midas Man
Originally by: ultima necat
Why are those people crashing their market prices to prevent one sale by an outsider ?
Some of it is stupidity.
But also a lot of traders myself included will use smaller orders when online and keep relisting everytime it sells. To other traders it looks like they are waiting for 1 or 2 to sell but you can sell through a pile of them. Because there is usually a noticable delay on market history volume it can go unnoticed for a while.
This.
The same reason people shoot rookie ships in nullsec. It doesn't matter whether you were a threat, you were perceived as a threat.
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Anvalor
Gallente
Germania Inc.
D0GMA
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Posted - 2009.04.09 14:48:00 -
[57]
I do not care what others think about me and my orders in market. If i see that someone in a system where i sell a t2 ship for example, sells his at 122 mil and all close regions do at 115 mil then i just underbid him and sell also at 116 or 115. Allways worked for me and i do not have to babysit my orders when i have fun killing and losing ships in that time far away.
Stop complaining about others and let them play the game how they like it. And even if some people (not me) decide that the minerals they mine are free so they can sell at build price, let them do it. If its fun for them , then who cares.
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Drahcir Nasom
Independent Manufacturers
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Posted - 2009.04.10 11:22:00 -
[58]
What a lot of people don't taken into account from a selling point of view is that there are still some people building from T2 BPOs. Take the Expanded Cargohold 2 as an example, You might be buying at 600K somewhere and selling at 700K somewhere else, making 100K pu. Now I come in and start selling at 625K, if you undercut me, your profit goes down to 25K pu, but I don't care because what I'm selling only cost me 24K to make and so my profit is around the 600K pu mark. I can make 500 EC2 every week @ 24K pu and if I can shift all 500 @ 625K making 300M or only 250 of them @ 725K making 175M, I know which I'll go for.
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Mystafyre
Caldari
First Clan Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.10 11:46:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Mystafyre on 10/04/2009 11:47:06
1) Get rid of other buyers
2) Manipulate price higher by creating 'fog' so he can get better price of his items
3) Time is money
For example, if trader have 1000 units T2 Capacitor Recharger.
Highest buy order is 550k and lowest sell order is 880k.
Trader sets following buy orders for the same item,
575k 2 items
580k 3 items
595k 1 item
615k 4 items
You get the picture. Then large buyer comes and outbids it with 616k with 500 units.
Trader can now get rid of half of his bulk load with much higher price. He could have tossed them on the sell orders and out bid the lowest sell order, but he wanted to sell them fast and he had bought them with 300k average price from ignorant players.
Of course numbers in this example are totally fiction, but that's what many are doing.
So if you are having your 0.01 war in that hub and you get your profits by sitting in station and buying and selling that T2 Capacitor Recharger, sure that cuts your profits.
Like I said, time is money, and managing your orders every 4 minutes is waste of money. It's easy way of trading, just find a item at trade hub, keep your orders at the top all the time on both sides.
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Saya Hikouka
New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2009.04.10 18:35:00 -
[60]
There is also another type of trader. The mission trader, one who could give a care less about manufacturers or other skilled market traders.
The mission trader has already made his/her profit from the mission and bounty rewards, selling the stock is icing on that cake and it really don't matter what he/she sells an item(s) at because he/she already profited once is extending the mission profits by selling the loot. Maybe they don't sell the items at all and just reprocess the loot for the mins to manufacture later, thus lowering the apparent cost. I also keep a fairly massive inventory in many places, thanks to my missioning.
For me the buy orders are a fun game to mess with the market. I don't have anything to lose and everything to gain. Because if I can run you all out of my region then I can set MY price for an item and make a decent price.
Now If I salvage and manufacture say CCC rigs, then my actual cost is sickeningly low, since all my salvage comes from missions and corp mates/alliance members.
I have the ability on multiple levels to do damage to any number of markets I choose to play in. Especially if I can motivate others to do what I am doing, within my corp/alliance, since they very obviously see the ISK I'm capable of making.
It is simply market manipulation at it's finest. There are times I'll take a loss to run the competition out of an area I choose to dabble in. Adapt or die...
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If it was easy it wouldn't be EVE. |
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