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Glatheros	Posted - 2009.04.06 15:09:00 - [1] Edited by: Glatheros on 06/04/2009 15:11:03 I would like to urge CCP to, have a look at minmatar Battleships and Capitals, and compare it from the eye of a non biased person. these ships are no match to the their counterparts in other races. Typhoon beign an exclusion to the list, but still not doing as good as it requires the sp to fly it properly. another issue is how projectile turrets are weak compared to missiles lasers and hybrids. As the size increses the turrets get lamer. please do fix it, as I've seen it it's broken since beta.
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2009.04.06 16:01:00 - [2] "tempest is fine" (tm) CCP zulupark 60D GTC - shattared link
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2009.04.06 19:27:00 - [3] you are zulupark, aren't ya... ^^ but i wouldn't mind switching proj ammo to have (huge) falloff bonuses instead of optimal. their "flavor" if you will... some rescaling of arties required, ofc.... - putting the gist back into logistics
RedSplat Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.04.06 19:39:00 - [4] I would like to see t1 ammo in AC's being max range (same as current) composed of 1/2 optimal and 1/2 falloff as standard. Barrage changing matters to 3/4 falloff and 1/4 optimal with greatly increased falloff Hail with 3/4 LESS optimal than t1 ammo and half falloff of t1 ammo. Double arty clipsizes, increase dmg baseline across board but decrease fire rate to keep DPS the same but GREATLY increase alpha. Alpha is almost irrelevant atm. Scale falloff/optimal increases between sizes amongst a class better and introduce a larger 'large' artillery size so there are 3 sizes of large arty; largest having a huge dmg bonus but crappy firerate, clipsize and nasty fititng requirements. Originally by: CCP Mitnal I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar M. Corp	Posted - 2009.04.06 19:48:00 - [5] THere is no need for changes on range etc.. Only increase base falloff from 16km to 20 km. That is ENOUGH to give large AC a band of range where they have damage advantage over blasters while being better trackers than pulses. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Artassaut Minmatar Oblivion Amalgamated	Posted - 2009.04.06 23:22:00 - [6] Swap shield hitpoints to armour hitpoints on the Typhoon. --- The Gate: Lol, try targeting me in a fleet fight. The Station: No U.
Azver Deroven Amarr Legion Of The ShiningStar Brotherhood of Legion's	Posted - 2009.04.06 23:57:00 - [7] Nerf my lazors and boost projectiles, kkthxbb. ---------------------------------------------------- My views do not represent those of my alliance, corporation or myself. Trully, sometimes I manage to confuse even myself.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2009.04.06 23:58:00 - [8] Edited by: The Djego on 07/04/2009 00:01:02 Originally by: Kalintos Tyl "tempest is fine" (tm) CCP zulupark Yeah I also remember he sayed Blasterships will be even better after QR. - double Clipsize on Artis, increase Damagemod, reduce ROF(more Alpha same or a bit better DPS) - unnerf T1/Faction Amno - swap armor/shield on the Phoon and give it 5/5 turrets/missles - Pest 12.5% Damagebonus per Level(only a bit more DPS as it has atm and wtf Alpha combined with the Arti changes) and 7.5% Tracking(or 10% Falloff) and give it 100/150 Drones, increase base lock range by 20km(now you don¦t need one more Sensor Booster for Fleet purpose than other fleet BS ), just look for Paterns Tread in Assamly hall - change Falloff a bit(seen a great solution on SHC about it) that the DPS drop isn¦t this hard during Optimal+1xFalloff to get at least 50-60% of your actual DPS at this point(needs reballancing Large Blasters Falloff to I have to admit) instead of the 30-40% you get there now ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
CrestoftheStars Caldari Recreation Of The World	Posted - 2009.04.07 00:25:00 - [9] every race have it's forces, accept minmatars isn't in bs' sized ships, but in cruiser sized ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2009.04.07 00:40:00 - [10] Originally by: CrestoftheStars every race have it's forces, accept minmatars isn't in bs' sized ships, but in cruiser sized Actualy Phoon is quite good with enught SP(Drones, Missles, AT, Turrets) and Mealstorm is well try small gang and you know(active tanking on it can be pure win, if you dooing it right and have a gang). It is mostly the Pest actualy and large AKs and Artis all together(also a bit of Falloff rework to make it more usefull). ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
CrestoftheStars Caldari Recreation Of The World	Posted - 2009.04.07 02:30:00 - [11] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: CrestoftheStars every race have it's forces, accept minmatars isn't in bs' sized ships, but in cruiser sized Actualy Phoon is quite good with enught SP(Drones, Missles, AT, Turrets) and Mealstorm is well try small gang and you know(active tanking on it can be pure win, if you dooing it right and have a gang). It is mostly the Pest actualy and large AKs and Artis all together(also a bit of Falloff rework to make it more usefull). ever stop to think that maybe they are not made to have higher dmg,rof, better optimal, besides the point that they would be vastly overpowered? ;) they are quite balanced for their purpose, although i will agree that their purpose as some other weapons (cruise missiles, rail guns,) are quite outdated and not usefull anymore ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded
Xelios Minmatar Broski Enterprises Avarice.	Posted - 2009.04.07 02:53:00 - [12] The tempest could use a look over but the phoon and maelstrom are fine I think. But the capitals are a different story. None of them stack up against the other races. The Naglfar can't fit a proper tank compared with any of the other races and the split weapons platform means a damage mod is only going to boost half your dps. Personally I'd be much happier to have 3 turrets and lose the 4th missile slot, combined with 1 or 2 more lows. Nag shouldn't have to be gimped just to be different from the other races. I don't fly the Nid or Hel but I'm told they're terrible, again mostly due to a poor tank.
Glatheros	Posted - 2009.04.07 07:23:00 - [13] I'm playing Eve since beta, and never stumbled upon a comment from devs that every race is designed to be superior to others in certain ship sizes, who ever claims that it is intended, I can assure that it is pure bull****, go check amarr and gallente. Other than that, I haven't seen a maelstrom beign flown for ages. to those who are saying artilleries are fine, it is obvious that you never wielded one. And for the phoon, it is a fine ship, but it requires so much sp for the job it does. does not comply, With that much SP, it should have a dominance over other BSs (not while piloting it with low sp).and tempest, I was trying to cope with one couple years ago, was still a trash, and as of today, the ship has no use.
Vulture mmkay	Posted - 2009.04.07 07:42:00 - [14] the minmatar have the strongest BS in-game which is maelstrom and the tempest is fine (sort of could do with a small boost) phoon iv never flown or seen to much so not gunna comment
Artassaut Minmatar Oblivion Amalgamated	Posted - 2009.04.07 08:53:00 - [15] Originally by: Vulture mmkay the minmatar have the strongest BS in-game which is maelstrom What role is it strongest in, and what ship classes is it most effective against? --- The Gate: Lol, try targeting me in a fleet fight. The Station: No U.
Glatheros	Posted - 2009.04.07 08:56:00 - [16] Originally by: Vulture mmkay the minmatar have the strongest BS in-game which is maelstrom and the tempest is fine (sort of could do with a small boost) phoon iv never flown or seen to much so not gunna comment you are either a noob who has no idea about the game, or a troll. Which one are you? I have no objection to negative comments, but give some explanation to why? there is no such thing as best in this game. SHOO!
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2009.04.07 09:59:00 - [17] Originally by: CrestoftheStars Originally by: The Djego Originally by: CrestoftheStars every race have it's forces, accept minmatars isn't in bs' sized ships, but in cruiser sized Actualy Phoon is quite good with enught SP(Drones, Missles, AT, Turrets) and Mealstorm is well try small gang and you know(active tanking on it can be pure win, if you dooing it right and have a gang). It is mostly the Pest actualy and large AKs and Artis all together(also a bit of Falloff rework to make it more usefull). ever stop to think that maybe they are not made to have higher dmg,rof, better optimal, besides the point that they would be vastly overpowered? ;) they are quite balanced for their purpose, although i will agree that their purpose as some other weapons (cruise missiles, rail guns,) are quite outdated and not usefull anymore BS is a very important shipclass in many situations(sniping, short range DD, heavy Tanking etc.). Even if Minmatar BS get beaten in close range by Gallente BS in DPS and in mid/long Range by Amarr/Caldari, there is no point in let them suck because the speed and agility advantage Minmatar got is less important in the BS class than it is for smaller Ships. The Tempest is the only BS with dual Damage Bonus to one Gun type, yet it is one of the BS that does the lowest DPS in real combat fittings and is one of the worst snipers in the game atm, now lets admit you are far far away from beeing overpowert. Artis are the worst long range Guns, they have a low DPS, a horrably small Clip Size, a low Range, and a horrably fitting. They don¦t even have a impressive Alpha anymore. High Alpha and usefull clip sizes go a long way to make them more usefull again. Falloff is a extrem Damage sink. Thats why Gallente move to Optimal with Blasters on default even beeing nearly as effective in Falloff as Minmatar in some situations and Amarr is considered as king of the Hill in most Combat situations atm, because you have tons of Optimal where you do full Damage and nearly no Falloff. You will hit for less and less often and a hole Gun Type is mostly ballanced around working in Falloff(AKs), this is exactly why falloffbonused Mini Ships and Barrage is this important you will do consideralbe more Damage at the same range with them(usely Optimal + 1x Falloff for smaller Mini Ships) even if you are about 50% under the DPS you get in EFT at Optimal. T1 and Faction Projektiel Amnos have both a reduced Base Damage(combared to Crystals and Hybrid Charges) and the Weapon Systems they get used in loose a ton of DPS in Falloff to, thats basicly sucks. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Nicholas DW Invicta. Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.04.07 10:45:00 - [18] Maelstrom, 'phoon and Nid are all great ships, as are ACs for the most part, it's just arties and the Tempest and Nag that have issues.
Ecky X SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.04.07 11:13:00 - [19] Originally by: Nicholas DW Maelstrom, 'phoon and Nid are all great ships, as are ACs for the most part, it's just arties and the Tempest and Nag that have issues. Half the time it isn't worth fitting projectiles on a phoon. Those bonused highslots are often better used as neuts, remote reps, or even smartbombs. Phoon is one of the few ships I don't hesitate to ignore hardpoints on. The Maelstrom is a decent ship because it has nearly 30k grid, and does the same gun damage as the double-bonused tempest, plus a tanking bonus and extra dronebay. The Tempest was made into crap when CCP changed nearly every useful mid and highslot utility module to only work properly on bonused ships, or not at all.
Azver Deroven Amarr Legion Of The ShiningStar Brotherhood of Legion's	Posted - 2009.04.07 12:45:00 - [20] I'd personally like to see arties brought to same damage level than rails do, to be honest. Changable damagetypes should cover for the falloff usage. Or maybe bring the damage that arties do at optimal++ falloff to be roughly same than rails at optimal. Naturally arties would be shorter range on most cases (Read: should at least), wich means they dont become pwnsausce of the day. Also I currently started a 380 day plan to train minnie ships up, so yeah boost would be nice :P (Is amarr, with bs 5 & large energy turret 5 :P) Anyway I like idea of arties, low ROF, higher broadside damage. You lose dps if you hurry things instead waiting tranversal to drop and whatnot, so its nice. But they could get rid of that last-ammo-of-the-cartridge bug. Arties suffer even more since they have smallest cartridge size. ---------------------------------------------------- My views do not represent those of my alliance, corporation or myself. Trully, sometimes I manage to confuse even myself.
Kerkar Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.07 13:49:00 - [21] Tempest and Phoon are both awesome. DO NOT touch my phoon >.< Naglafar (spelling :S) could do with being less fail though :D
Dr Resheph Amarr YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY	Posted - 2009.04.07 16:08:00 - [22] Projectiles have been boosted about five separate times now, your claim that it's been broken since beta is rejected. In the end its always the same ridiculous argument about damage being worse than lasers. Obviously its going to be worse, lasers have a built in damage bonus that makes them equivalent to other race's turrets with no damage mods. About the only time people weren't complaining about artillery is when Tempests would go around one-volleying anything smaller than a Battleship.
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.04.07 16:45:00 - [23] Tempest is pretty good, mostly cause it can easily fit 2 heavy neuts There is 1 ugly element of design, in my opinion: the main strength of projectiles isn't the DPS, so they are made naturally weak, but many Minmatar ships have double damage bonus - where the 2nd damage bonus offsets the lowered natural dps of the gun. Together they create balance It seems like bad design cause you got 2 things going against each other and canceling out. A better design would emphasize strengths and weaknesses. The current solution may be balanced but it is essentially a waste of 1 ship bonus, which could have been something else But we can't move forward on these issues until we have a firm understanding on what the role of each weapon type is
Overbrain	Posted - 2009.04.07 16:59:00 - [24] Remember ships are measured by their overall efficiency . Which isnt mission only or pvp only . Where tempest excels at is pvp, because it has utility slots and combined with projectiles not requiring energy to operate , the package is a good deal . But on the other hand, that ship sucks in missions . But then , you cant have everything.
Professor Dumbledore Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.07 17:34:00 - [25] The weapon systems themselves are fine the tempest does need a change tho. Minmatar are the only race that dont have a proper t2 sniper battleship. It can't snip and tank a DD like every other race can which is an issue and makes them weak and this should likely be fixed. A maelstrom doesn't count because its "designed" at a pve/station undock camper ship with that local + rep bonus. If it was given a power grid bonus so that it could fit 6 1400 mm artys without a RCU II with a mwd and 1600 mm plate fit ( i think you need about a 15% base increase to do this ) it would be fine.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.04.07 21:58:00 - [26] The argument that Minnie BS suck because Minnie arn't a BS race is awful. BS are a crucial part of this game and every race needs competitive BS's. Fortunately we have the Typhoon which is a very good BS so not only is the argument silly it simply isn't true. I have flown the Tempest a lot and it is one of the most frustrating ships you can fly. I like the slot layout, love the look, nice to fit, serves a number of useful roles, and yet somehow it does poor damage despite a double damage bonus. A ship with a double damage bonus that does poor damage is a confused beast. Time after time I read people comparing the Mega to other ships and completely ignoring its' tracking bonus - it is like the Mega is a high damage single bonus ship to many people. In reality it is a high damage ship with awesome tracking for a BS and that really matters. The Tempest has poor damage despite its' dual damage bonus and that is it. You can fit Abaddon's and Mega's up with 2 remote reps and they out perform the Tempest despite the Tempests slot layout being suited to dual RR's. Yes the Tempest has an extra mid and I really value that but even accepting less tank in return for the mid slot you still end up looking bad in comparision because of how low the damage of large AC's is. The problem is large AC's. You can fiddle with falloff all you want but the bottomline is that if you are going to give a ship a dual damage bonus and have it do poor damage of course it is going to be a frustrating ship. It is simply bad ship design by CCP. Large AC's need to do more damage.
Azver Deroven Amarr Legion Of The ShiningStar Brotherhood of Legion's	Posted - 2009.04.07 22:11:00 - [27] Hardly matters where you look it from, pojectiles do less damage than rails from shorter range. Mmkay? NOT lasers, but rails. At least same damage for shorter range, please? that 20% cut just because they have bigger alpha hardly is justified, for shorter range. or am I just horribly wrong? ---------------------------------------------------- My views do not represent those of my alliance, corporation or myself. Trully, sometimes I manage to confuse even myself.
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2009.04.07 22:20:00 - [28] I love the phoon, and I don't think anyone should change it. It's a balls to the walls ship, but I love her. Although not with projectiles. God no. The tempest would be a much better ship if it did just a tiny bit more damage. Put simply, it doesn't have the low slots to fit a decent tank as well as damage mods. And that sucks. The only tempest fit that I could come up with that looks 'ok' needs to use 425mm's with no gyros. A thorax does more damage.
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.04.07 22:56:00 - [29] Originally by: Azver Deroven Hardly matters where you look it from, pojectiles do less damage than rails from shorter range. Mmkay? NOT lasers, but rails. At least same damage for shorter range, please? that 20% cut just because they have bigger alpha hardly is justified, for shorter range. or am I just horribly wrong? You are correct in a sense that original role of Artillery weapons have been gradually marginalized with different patches. Their role is alpha, which is the main strength, the main advantage that is justifiable by all the disadvantages. Now the alpha is very weak, yet all the disadvantages are still there, hence the disbalance. The main role of artillery should be emphasized to bring it up to par to pre-Castor levels
Azver Deroven Amarr Legion Of The ShiningStar Brotherhood of Legion's	Posted - 2009.04.07 23:12:00 - [30] Well, into that end we could just add the damage mod, say that 20% (Im refering to dps difrence of a raw 425mm rail II vs 1400mm arty II, wich is 20%, emp vs antimatter, no resists applied) This would increase alpha, bring dps into somewhat of line, and if it really is all about alpha one could simply increase damage mod a bit further and, even from current format, reduce ROF. ---------------------------------------------------- My views do not represent those of my alliance, corporation or myself. Trully, sometimes I manage to confuse even myself.
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.04.07 23:24:00 - [31] Originally by: Azver Deroven Well, into that end we could just add the damage mod, say that 20% (Im refering to dps difrence of a raw 425mm rail II vs 1400mm arty II, wich is 20%, emp vs antimatter, no resists applied) This would increase alpha, bring dps into somewhat of line, and if it really is all about alpha one could simply increase damage mod a bit further and, even from current format, reduce ROF. That isn't a proper solution, as it simply makes Artillery more like Railguns Why not simply give tempests railgun bonus then and delete arty all together? Every gun type should be distinctly different. Those who value good range and dps should fly Railgun ships, and not try to make elephant out of a pig with artillery
Xelios Minmatar Broski Enterprises Avarice.	Posted - 2009.04.08 02:05:00 - [32] I can deal with artillery having inconsistent damage due to the falloff. It's not the best sniper and that's fine. At medium range an arty tempest can still put out some mean volley damage. The dps is lacking sure, but volley is a good trade off for that. However having to fit an RCU II in every useful 1400mm fit is pretty dumb, especially when you're already working with 1 less low slot than all the other long range BS in its class. It would make sense if 1400mm's were superior to all the other long range guns, but they're not. They haven't been for years.
Spurty Caldari Amok. Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.04.08 05:01:00 - [33] train amarr, ccp don't need to do anything while people still fly the ships. Originally by: Butter Dog I think you'll find that 10 seconds > 1 month
Loveslave Dave	Posted - 2009.04.10 16:33:00 - [34] One thing that I've always been surprised gets no attention is the nigh on eve-wide consensus that Minmatar caps suck. Naglfar is the joke of dreads for obvious reasons, the nidhoggur has always been seen as a poor alternative to any of the other carriers [and that's with the early buffing] and Hel pilots actually get laughed at for having the temerity to show their faces.....seriously.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.04.10 17:27:00 - [35] Something that surprises me even more, is the recurrent talks about these issues (both Battleship and Capitals) and not a single bit of feedback off the Developers. Not even to say "no, they are fine" (maybe because then they would have to say why they are fine, which they can't).
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.04.11 00:58:00 - [36] bring back alpha, or if not alpha bring back hit and run. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Destructor1792 Minmatar Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.11 11:51:00 - [37] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Something that surprises me even more, is the recurrent talks about these issues (both Battleship and Capitals) and not a single bit of feedback off the Developers. Not even to say "no, they are fine" (maybe because then they would have to say why they are fine, which they can't). Many a year ago, Devs nearly always responded to posts similar to this.. Unfortunately now, most posts degrade into a 1on1 or 2on2 slanging match & the original argument is lost in all the drivel And if you notice on other threads, when a decent proposal or idea is put forward, it ends up getting ignored & people just go back to slanging matches!! Just view some of the other posts over 2 pages long - you'll see what i mean But as for the BS and caps, there's plenty of other posts regarding these.. guess it's just a case of wait and see if anything happens ______________________________________ Bringing The Fun Back [gold]I Have No Fear, That's your Problem[/go
Marius Nervosu Caldari The Fallen Angels Unit Legiunea ROmana	Posted - 2009.04.11 13:40:00 - [38] LOL, almost all other races train minmatar like second race. Why is that if the race is not god ? :)
Xelios Minmatar Broski Enterprises Avarice.	Posted - 2009.04.11 15:12:00 - [39] Minmatar have some good ships that's why. Ships like the Vagabond, Stiletto, Hurricane, Typhoon and Rifter to name a few. The issue isn't with the minmatar race as a whole, it's with two classes of minmatar ships that are considered by almost everyone in EVE to be sub-par. Take any BS fleet and compare the number of minmatar BS to other races. Take any capital fleet and compare the number of minmatar caps to other races. Ask any minmatar capital pilot what he'd rather be flying if he could fly any race. Crosstraining for capital ships isn't so easy you know.
Ecky X SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.04.11 16:02:00 - [40] Originally by: Xelios Ask any minmatar capital pilot what he'd rather be flying if he could fly any race. Crosstraining for capital ships isn't so easy you know. I love the Niddy, but I'd swap my Nag for either the Amarr or Gallente dreads without a second thought.
Mikal Drey Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.11 16:10:00 - [41] Originally by: Ephemeron You are correct in a sense that original role of Artillery weapons have been gradually marginalized with different patches. Their role is alpha, which is the main strength, the main advantage that is justifiable by all the disadvantages. Now the alpha is very weak, yet all the disadvantages are still there, hence the disbalance. The main role of artillery should be emphasized to bring it up to par to pre-Castor levels I totally agree and would like to add : split weapons are very hard to get used to and people rarely see the benefits and the fun side. with the age of EFT and the role specific ships split weaponry has become an antiquated concept. artilleries used to hurt and the tempest was primary cause it hurt so much and popped everything in sight. now its primary cause its easy to kill :/ the continual refocus of dps/tank/buffer/drones/missiles etc have made our beloved race sub par in direct comparison. (weapon for weapon) projectiles are out classed. bringing the high alpha back is a start but might end up with silly rebalancing consequences. Shattered Crystal - 60 day GTC
Wrayeth Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.04.11 17:34:00 - [42] Edited by: Wrayeth on 11/04/2009 17:34:47 I just woke up, so hopefully this is comprehensible. Anyway, here's my take on Minmatar BS: First off, let me start off by stating that there is one Matari BS that's almost good, and that's the 'phoon. Its fittings are far too tight, requiring faction mods to fit a full kit in many instances. FIX: This is the easiest of the Minmatar battleships to fix: give the typhoon a small boost to grid and CPU. For the maelstrom, it's not that it's a bad ship, but that it has several massive disadvantages due to changed game mechanics that result in there being very few situations where it would not simply be better to fly a battleship from another race. The primary problems here are twofold: the reduced usefulness of BS outside of remote rep gangs, and the dominance of buffer-tanking/weakness of active tanking. The reduced usefulness of BS is a direct result of the web nerf and the speed changes to battleships. The net effect of making battleships slower and making it more difficult to hit smaller ships is that their usefulness outside of RR gangs has been so greatly reduced that there usually isn't much point to using them unless you know your opponent is going to be in something big and slow that has a sig radius that could be described as "the broad side of a barn". This leads directly into the maelstrom's weakness in the one area where battleships still shine: remote repping gangs. RR gangs require a large hitpoint buffer so that there is enough time to lock and/or switch reps to the ship taking fire, and this means that active tanks are usually right out. They generally do not have enough of a buffer to survive, especially under very, very heavy fire. Unfortunately, the maelstrom fails hard in this area; it has an active tanking bonus, and you have to abandon that bonus if you want to be a significant contributor to a RR gang. Of course, all of this is not counting the fact that shield tanking is generally far weaker than armor tanking. Due to crap base resists for EM (one of the most common and powerful damage types these days), smaller buffers than armor tanks, and the fact that shield tanks occupy the same slots as vital PvP modules (MWD, disruptors, webs, cap injectors), shield tanking simply isn't as useful in PvP, and almost every remote rep BS gang I've ever flown in or run into has been armor-based. Oh: the fittings on large shield transfer modules are also stupidly high, making them very difficult to fit. This all leads back to the maelstrom not really having much of a role in PvP atm, as BS aren't very useful outside of remote rep gangs (something which greatly annoys me, as I have BS 5 in 3 races) and the maelstrom sucks at RR unless you want to LOLfit it with an armor tank and no damage mods and ignore one of its bonuses on top of that. Then we have the tempest, which can do just about anything. Unfortunately, it cannot do anything well. It can kick out DPS (low amounts), tank, (poor to average), EWAR (half-assedly), and move faster (than other BS, but it's still a huge target and easy to hit). None of these items give it any real advantage in combat, and, unlike prior years, it's not longer possible to win fights by controlling the range in a tempest; at any range the tempest can scrambler its target (short of overheating its tech II disruptor, which wouldn't last the whole fight before burning out), even a blasterthron can out-DPS and tank it using null and ogres. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Wrayeth Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.04.11 17:35:00 - [43] The net result of all of this is that the ship does not have any true advantages that make it worth flying. Yes, it may be "versatile", but that only helps if it's the only ship you've got and you want to be able to refit it for any combat role (at which it will offer mediocre performance). However, when you have the options of flying other ships, the tempest soon finds itself outclassed by the other choices. Much like the nighthawk, it's left by the wayside in favor of other, better ships. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
MicroWarpdrive II Disorder. Shock Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.12 01:48:00 - [44] Why can't CCP just give the naglfar +1 mid, -1 low? That would fix a majority of the damage problems, considering then you could fit 2 of each damage mod. Also, the tank would be substantially increased...It's very simple, they already did the opposite swap for the Nidhoggur.
Ecky X SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.04.12 06:31:00 - [45] Originally by: MicroWarpdrive II Why can't CCP just give the naglfar +1 mid, -1 low? That would fix a majority of the damage problems, considering then you could fit 2 of each damage mod. Also, the tank would be substantially increased...It's very simple, they already did the opposite swap for the Nidhoggur. Because the Nag already needs a co-proc to fill 5 mids. The Nag's biggest problem, I think, is that it has one less slot than the other dreads. Rev: 8 lows, 4 mids = 12 Phoenix: 5 lows, 7 mids = 12 Moros: 7 lows, 5 mids = 12 Naglfar: 6 lows, 5 mids = 11 And don't say, "well it get another high so it can do more damage than the other dreads."
Xelios Minmatar Broski Enterprises Avarice.	Posted - 2009.04.12 14:13:00 - [46] Edited by: Xelios on 12/04/2009 14:13:14 If anything the nag needs an extra low. Nobody fits a shield tank to it because without all skills at level 5 it takes a dread co-pro and named t1 mods (including cosmos gyros) to do it, and lowers your cap recharge considerably over an armor tank to boot. With all skills to level 5 you might be able to use a few t2 mods in there, but you'll still need the DG co-proc. At the same time you have the split weapons layout, which means all damage mods are only 50% effective. Fitting 1 gyro II on a nag gives you a dps increase of about 274. Fitting 1 heat sink II on a rev gives you a dps increase of 566. As far as pros and cons go here's what I have: Pros: No cap use for weapons It's VERTICAL Cons: Split weapons layout Not enough CPU for a shield tank Not enough low slots to fit armor tank and damage mods Damage mods being only 50% effective 2nd lowest fitted DPS of all dreads (only phoenix does 100 less dps, and has massive volley damage as a trade off)

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