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Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
723
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
From what I gather it will now cost a flat 50M ISK to open a wardec, about + 500K per man and logistics ships will have aggression when RRGÇÖing. Welp, I would like to offer CCP a few personal observations from someone who has been wredecing in empire for about as long as I have played EVE Online.
If am currently misinformed please forgive my rant. In any case, here we go!
CCP wants Wardecs to be a more meaningful commitment.
I do understand that tiny corporations are being constantly trolled by PVPbears and killboard padders. But I suspect that 50M isk + 500K per man is a bit steep. The issue is not necessarily the cost vs corporations that is the issue here, it is the exponential cost of wardecing any corporation or alliance that is successful.
If this goes live all you have done is create greater incentive to grief smaller starter corporations, because wardecing the larger and more successful ones becomes obscenely expensive. Successful organizations mind you, that should be better at defending themselves by default, over a starter corporation of noobs and a 20 man mining corporation.
Result
You have made empire MORE dangerous for the little guy, and you have created an unintentional (near) immunity for establishments that want to buff their numbers with 2 alts (per one account) and 5 alts (per 2 accounts). This is by no means preferable to what we have now
You have kind of "re-broke" the whole thing IMO.
Logistics Get Aggression
At the onset this seems like a good thing, that is until you hear what the players in game have to say about it. So far I have heard more then once "welp, we will just have to bring more neut RR". Like it or hate it, the Neut RR game mechanic has been around for so long that players have forgotten how to do it any other way. They feel like they need it like a crutch, and they will not be giving it up so easily.
Result
We will just be seeing more hard to jam, high resist, tiny sig radius guardians RR'ing one another around stations preventing kills.
How I Think We Can Buff Wardecs In General & Make Them More Meaningful
For starters, the guys who need to some buffer from an unending chain of cheap griefing wardecs are the little starter establishments, not the realy big and established ones. So I think you have got it backwards. And I do surmise that what we are seeing on singularity is advantageous to all of the null sec CSM's that we got stuck with, but I digress.
All people really need is a cool down period after a wardec to regain some assets. Let the wars last as long as the aggressor wants to pay for it, but give the non-wardecing corp a week off in the form of a cool down stasis to recover. A mechanic like this would help boost morale among the members of the unwilling corporation, because they are not stuck in station after 2,3,4 consecutive griefer decs. Everyone can use a break. (ofc if you have recently wardec'd someone this would obvious become void)
ISK per wardec is not really as good of a control as it may seem. I would like to see a mechanic that involves something other then pure isk governing who gets dec'd and who stays immune. I mean, why only factor in member count? How about average sec status, average ISK lost or killed in a given month, how long the war has lasted or even an establishment's kill:death ratio? Why is ISK the ONLY deciding factor when it comes to an establishments security in empire?
Guardians, those freaking guardians. Aggression is a good start, but I am of the opinion that they are more detrimental to people actually blowing up then anything else in the game. It is no different then because of falcon, and I will come right out and say that they probably should be nerfed a little bit. High resists, speed, tiny sig, unlimited capacitor and high sensor strength is a bit much on a ship that can send large RR out to 70KM.
PVP should not involve that kind of security, it should involve people exploding on both sides. People need to get used to dieing more again.
Summary
Give a corporation that never wardecs anyone, and has no kills, a 1 week cool down stasis. But let the aggressor keep the war going as long as they can afford it.
Scrap the additional cost per man idea, and instead give us some kind of mechanic (like the fixed insurance payouts calculating average market value cost) where Kills:death, sec status and aggressiveness are taken into account in the initial dec fee. Make the dec fee increase per week, to make it more "Serious" to continue the war for a long term.
People need to die more, they do not need 8 large repair modules on them sitting on a station, coming from ships that possess such a desirable combination of attributes, tiny sig, high sensor strength, long range and infinite capacitor. Guardians need to be brought in line with the rest of the ships in EVE Online, just like Falcons were.
I do not want to see an EVE Online were large null sec alliance are immune from war, small corporations are just as targeted as they are today (if not worse) and people are compensating for RR aggression by bringing even more logi's to a stations undock. I DO NOT WANT ALPHA SHIPS to become the only legitimate method of PVP in EVE. That would just be stupid.
End rant. Please someone tell me that I have all this stuff wrong, because it will make me a very happy panda.
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Soy Mel
0
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
You should clearly just be suicide ganking them. |
Fannie Maes
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
217
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hey as long as goons... I mean CCP design the system it will have problems. Sorry but all we can do is adapt or quit until goons... I mean CCP stop ruining the game. |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
870
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Whine more about not being rich enough.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6371
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
Yes, the issue that, in an attempt to remove cheese tactics such as decshielding and decshedding, they've actually made decshielding the default mechanic for wars is worrisome. The whole logic of GÇ£you pay for the number of targetsGÇ¥ is completely missing the point of what wardeccers are looking for and what purpose wardecs are supposed to have. They are essentially completely contradicting their design goals through that linear cost formula.
As for neutral logis, I'm not entirely sure people have understood what is going to happen there (or maybe something has changed since it was last presented): neutral logis will have GÇ£suspectGÇ¥ status GÇö they will be free to kill (without any means of retaliation) for anyone and everyone in the system. They will basically get a GCC, only without the CONCORD deadray coming down on them. The solution to GÇ£bring more logisGÇ¥ means that now there are more logis that are free killmails for anyone who wants to activate their guns GÇö it'll be a very risky proposition.
I'm still feeling fairly certain that the solution people will move towards will be the one CCP is intending: that, yes, people will still bring logis (possibly more now than before), but they will not be neutrals GÇö they will be valid war target from the second they undock. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
870
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
More isk for more targets, it's quite simple.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1279
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
"Oh god, my logi pilots have to know what they're doing and I can't pay pocket change for hundreds of targets anymore!"
You know where you don't have to pay ISK to kill people? Low, Null and WH space. Perhaps you should try leaving the crib. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
723
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
@ Tippia
If the suspect thing actually goes live (I am not confident that it will) yes it will push guardians into corporations. But the end result is still having more guardians on stations. In empire, you do not have ships with godly EHP and ridiculous neut + DPS output that comes with 100 man blobs. We have smaller establishments, and we have megathrons.
I do not know how many Megathrons it takes to kill 1 Guardians in a chain of 4-5, but I do know that they won't be catching them. If ECM is the intended countermeasure to this... then I can't help but wonder how many falcons you need to shut a chain like that down long enough to score even a single kill in 60 seconds.
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
546
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote: All people really need is a cool down period after a wardec to regain some assets. Let the wars last as long as the aggressor wants to pay for it, but give the non-wardecing corp a week off in the form of a cool down stasis to recover. A mechanic like this would help boost morale among the members of the unwilling corporation, because they are not stuck in station after 2,3,4 consecutive griefer decs. Everyone can use a break. (ofc if you have recently wardec'd someone this would obvious become void) So, uh, if i read this right, the new decshield is to have your altcorp dec you then end the war every week, if your suggestion is implemented? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6371
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:More isk for more targets, it's quite simple. It's also completely nonsensical.
You don't want GÇ£moreGÇ¥ targets GÇö you want GÇ£a good number ofGÇ¥ targets. How many this good number represents depends on how many of you there are and how many you want to commit to the war. What they're doing is making sure that decshielding is more powerful than ever (even though the express purpose of the change was to remove decshielding).
This just means that the optimal target is the small guy: he's cheap and he's easy to kill. Wars for counter-logistics is now removed from the game, because anyone with enough logistical capacity to be worth disrupting will be too large and too costly to be worth disrupting.
It's a neat concept GÇö it is also so completely removed from the realities of the game that it's also completely bone-headed, utterly counter-productive, and downright idiotic. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
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Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
724
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:"Oh god, my logi pilots have to know what they're doing and I can't pay pocket change for hundreds of targets anymore!"
You know where you don't have to pay ISK to kill people? Low, Null and WH space. Perhaps you should try leaving the crib.
What people like you, and people on the CSM... and thus CCP, does not understand. Is that many of us ******* hate null sec life, politics, your leadership, and the stupid mindless ******* blob. That is why we are not out there, it has nothing to do with how we choose to PVP.
If null sec was the only aspect of this game I would have no reason to continue playing it. And I am most def not the only one who shares that opinion.
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
546
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Krios Ahzek wrote:More isk for more targets, it's quite simple. It's also completely nonsensical. You don't want GÇ£moreGÇ¥ targets GÇö you want GÇ£a good number ofGÇ¥ targets. How many this good number represents depends on how many of you there are and how many you want to commit to the war. What they're doing is making sure that decshielding is more powerful than ever (even though the express purpose of the change was to remove decshielding). This just means that the optimal target is the small guy: he's cheap and he's easy to kill. Wars for counter-logistics is now removed from the game, because anyone with enough logistical capacity to be worth disrupting will be too large and too costly to be worth disrupting. It's a neat concept GÇö it is also so completely removed from the realities of the game that it's also completely bone-headed, utterly counter-productive, and downright idiotic. Soon, groups like 0rphanage and such will forget how fun it is to dec massive alliances in order to camp Jita.
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
724
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote: All people really need is a cool down period after a wardec to regain some assets. Let the wars last as long as the aggressor wants to pay for it, but give the non-wardecing corp a week off in the form of a cool down stasis to recover. A mechanic like this would help boost morale among the members of the unwilling corporation, because they are not stuck in station after 2,3,4 consecutive griefer decs. Everyone can use a break. (ofc if you have recently wardec'd someone this would obvious become void) So, uh, if i read this right, the new decshield is to have your altcorp dec you then end the war every week, if your suggestion is implemented?
And yes, leave it to a goon troll to instantly figure out how to cheat a mechanic. But there are ways around it, it would req to much effort from CCP's petition division however. So I'll drop this part.
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
546
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:"Oh god, my logi pilots have to know what they're doing and I can't pay pocket change for hundreds of targets anymore!"
You know where you don't have to pay ISK to kill people? Low, Null and WH space. Perhaps you should try leaving the crib. What people like you, and people on the CSM... and thus CCP, does not understand. Is that many of us ******* hate null sec life, politics, your leadership, and the stupid mindless ******* blob. That is why we are not out there, it has nothing to do with how we choose to PVP. Well I see you at least hate people blobbing neutral RR guardians on stations, so that's fair enough.
I did get a kick out of seeing an Abaddon with 5 RR Guardians get popped instantly by 40 Tornados. Ah, alphastrike-based doctrines. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
546
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote: All people really need is a cool down period after a wardec to regain some assets. Let the wars last as long as the aggressor wants to pay for it, but give the non-wardecing corp a week off in the form of a cool down stasis to recover. A mechanic like this would help boost morale among the members of the unwilling corporation, because they are not stuck in station after 2,3,4 consecutive griefer decs. Everyone can use a break. (ofc if you have recently wardec'd someone this would obvious become void) So, uh, if i read this right, the new decshield is to have your altcorp dec you then end the war every week, if your suggestion is implemented? And yes, leave it to a goon troll to instantly figure out how to cheat a mechanic. I know, right? And I didn't even need to decshield :shobon: Imagine how fast the highsec people would have figured it out !
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
724
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: I know, right? And I didn't even need to decshield :shobon: Imagine how fast the highsec people would have figured it out !
And yet the goal should be blatantly apparent to everyone.
Good fights for people who do not wish to blob or deep throat digital slave masters. I don't really care how we get it, but we want it.
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Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1279
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
What people like you, and people on the CSM... and thus CCP, does not understand. Is that many of us ******* hate null sec life, politics, your leadership, and the stupid mindless ******* blob. That is why we are not out there, it has nothing to do with how we choose to PVP.
If null sec was the only aspect of this game I would have no reason to continue playing it. And I am most def not the only one who shares that opinion.
I don't follow your logic.
How is sitting on a station undock with a dozen friends in pimped out ships with neutral, unattackable logistics and off-grid boosters waiting for one poor fool to undock not "blobbing"?
It is far, far worse, to be completely blunt. It is one-sided, dull, and involves zero risk. Oh no, a bunch of people undocked! Whatever will we... oh right. Dock. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
546
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: I know, right? And I didn't even need to decshield :shobon: Imagine how fast the highsec people would have figured it out !
And yet the goal should be blatantly apparent to everyone. Good fights for people who do not wish to blob or deep throat digital slave masters. Better make a better mechanic suggestion that people can't abuse then, It's ok, you don't have the best competetion for that, historically speaking. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
546
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote:What people like you, and people on the CSM... and thus CCP, does not understand. Is that many of us ******* hate null sec life, politics, your leadership, and the stupid mindless ******* blob. That is why we are not out there, it has nothing to do with how we choose to PVP.
If null sec was the only aspect of this game I would have no reason to continue playing it. And I am most def not the only one who shares that opinion. I don't follow your logic. How is sitting on a station undock with a dozen friends in pimped out ships with neutral, unattackable logistics and off-grid boosters waiting for one poor fool to undock not "blobbing"? It is far, far worse, to be completely blunt. It is one-sided, dull, and involves zero risk. Oh no, a bunch of people undocked! Whatever will we... oh right. Dock. Isn't it like why 250 Hurricans is blobbing, but 50 titans is perfectly honorable?
It matters who you are. If you are the guy with RRs, it's perfectly fine. If not, it's blobbing. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
726
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote:
What people like you, and people on the CSM... and thus CCP, does not understand. Is that many of us ******* hate null sec life, politics, your leadership, and the stupid mindless ******* blob. That is why we are not out there, it has nothing to do with how we choose to PVP.
If null sec was the only aspect of this game I would have no reason to continue playing it. And I am most def not the only one who shares that opinion.
I don't follow your logic. How is sitting on a station undock with a dozen friends in pimped out ships with neutral, unattackable logistics and off-grid boosters waiting for one poor fool to undock not "blobbing"? It is far, far worse, to be completely blunt. It is one-sided, dull, and involves zero risk. Oh no, a bunch of people undocked! Whatever will we... oh right. Dock.
You are 100% correct, it is about the same. But what you fail to realize is that you assume that we are all in empire doing just that. We are not, and I am not. Since you assume that only blobs and/or docking games factor into the equation, I must now assume that you are an idiot.
We DONT want any of that. That is the point.
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Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1279
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:[quote=Akirei Scytale] Isn't it like why 250 Hurricans is blobbing, but 50 titans is perfectly honorable?
It matters who you are. If you are the guy with RRs, it's perfectly fine. If not, it's blobbing.
Pretty much. Hooray for selective reasoning and cognitive dissonance. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Fannie Maes
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
217
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:57:00 -
[22] - Quote
It is a sandbox game where you can do anything you want... as long as goons approve of your activity! |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1279
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote: You are 100% correct, it is about the same. But what you fail to realize is that you assume that we are all in empire doing just that. We are not, and I am not. Since you assume that only blobs and/or docking games factor into the equation, I must now assume that you are an idiot.
We DONT want any of that. That is the point.
Then go to lowsec? TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
726
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Posted - 2012.05.03 19:59:00 -
[24] - Quote
Fannie Maes wrote:It is a sandbox game where you can do anything you want... as long as goons approve of your activity!
TBH I don't understand why they even care, this is not their area of the game. Does wardecs from Oprhans really **** you off that much? You live in Deklein for gods sake. Who cares?
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Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
726
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Posted - 2012.05.03 20:00:00 -
[25] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote: You are 100% correct, it is about the same. But what you fail to realize is that you assume that we are all in empire doing just that. We are not, and I am not. Since you assume that only blobs and/or docking games factor into the equation, I must now assume that you are an idiot.
We DONT want any of that. That is the point.
Then go to lowsec?
The "Oh god CCP can you finally buff low sec" thread is that way & not the topic of this thread, but I would be ecstatic if they did.
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Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1280
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Posted - 2012.05.03 20:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:The "Oh god CCP can you finally buff low sec" thread is that way & not the topic of this thread, but I would be ecstatic if they did.
I think I see your problem.
You'll find something to whine about no matter what you're talking about, and use that to rationalize your decision to play station and gate games while denying that you do.
Want to have actual two-sided combat? Leave highsec. Don't like politics? Go to lowsec instead of null. Don't want to deal with sec loss / gate guns? Go to WH space.
If you genuinely want what you claim to want, you'll find it by looking for it, not whining. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
792
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Posted - 2012.05.03 20:08:00 -
[27] - Quote
op is right, wardecs should be next to free, and impossible to welch out of. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
547
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Posted - 2012.05.03 20:12:00 -
[28] - Quote
Basically, wait until the changes come out and then whine to CCP about how goons are wardeccing all the little corps.
Clearly, shooting wardecs is so fun the next time around, Jita will be full of blinking red people. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
726
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Posted - 2012.05.03 20:14:00 -
[29] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Basically, wait until the changes come out and then whine to CCP about how goons are wardeccing all the little corps.
Clearly, shooting wardecs is so fun the next time around, Jita will be full of blinking red people.
Oh... Ofc... and the other shoe drops.
At least it all makes sense now. Thx CCP for a easily exploitable CSM system, I hope you reap what you sow (again)
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
547
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Posted - 2012.05.03 20:18:00 -
[30] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Basically, wait until the changes come out and then whine to CCP about how goons are wardeccing all the little corps.
Clearly, shooting wardecs is so fun the next time around, Jita will be full of blinking red people. Oh... Ofc... and the other shoe drops. At least it all makes sense now. Thx CCP for a easily exploitable CSM system, I hope you reap what you sow (again) I don't think the nullsec groups really cared much about highsec warfare, until the run up to burn jita, anyway.
Besides, freighters always have the NPC corp. Like on the forums ~ Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
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