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faking killmails, rampant ? methods to prevent ?

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Xianbei	Posted - 2009.04.10 16:24:00 - [1] Edited by: Xianbei on 10/04/2009 16:25:17 Edited by: Xianbei on 10/04/2009 16:24:34 Edited by: Xianbei on 10/04/2009 16:24:12 this thread makes me wonder how rampant this kind of pathetic killmail modification is and what steps we and CCP can take to prevent it why doesnt CCP run a central KB. it can be basic so that other killboards are not pointless, but it would allow verification of KMs. the system could be hidden for x amount of hours to protect OPs in progress (most of the boards have this already) then these idiots faking killmails would be spotted immediately. i suspect a whole lot of numbers would be different if there was a central verification source like this. 2c edit: in before the move to ideas or crime and formatting
crockett EXE Minmatar Mutineers	Posted - 2009.04.10 17:01:00 - [2] I think the best way to to "allow" them to be posted here on the forums so people can dispute them if they think it's a fake.
Eldern Minderhost	Posted - 2009.04.10 17:14:00 - [3] or just don't use killboards as your self-gratification for being a pirate. It's amusing how many people point to my battleclinic record and say "you suck as a PvPer" just to get their asses handed to them. I don't use battleclinic, and other people are rarely as honest when posting their loss mails as when posting their victories.
Xianbei	Posted - 2009.04.10 17:41:00 - [4] but if all KBs synced off the master KB, there would be no doubt there would be no manual posting for a game that is so PvP oriented, making sure PvP stats are accurate and freely available seems like a good direction to head
Murashu Agony's End	Posted - 2009.04.10 18:14:00 - [5] I would love to see official killboards as well but it would just be an additional cost to CCP which means they either lose income or raise prices. Faked/bogus killmails happen daily and it's really up to Corp leaders to ensure people are posting accurately. I go thru my Corp losses/kills tab once a week to ensure no one "forgets" to post a KM. Our Corp is just over a month old and I've already found 10 bogus killmails on the gallente militia killboard dated a year before we formed the Corp. I don't think anyone did it on purpose to hurt our stats but it is frustrating to go to a website and see bogus mails posted. Murashu Agony's End
Diamaht Nevain Gallente Subnet Syndicate Binary Brotherhood	Posted - 2009.04.10 19:44:00 - [6] Problem is if you make everyone be honest about kill mails then you will discourage pvp even more. Not only will people not want to risk ships but also KB "status". Very sad, but very true =============================== Two words: Internet Spaceships
Tsumei Meyren Creative Cookie Procuring	Posted - 2009.04.10 20:09:00 - [7] People who worry too much about killboards need to get their panties out of a twist in the first place in my opinion
Diamaht Nevain Gallente Subnet Syndicate Binary Brotherhood	Posted - 2009.04.10 20:53:00 - [8] Originally by: Tsumei Meyren People who worry too much about killboards need to get their panties out of a twist in the first place in my opinion Agreed =============================== Two words: Internet Spaceships
Corduroy Rab Chaos Reborn Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.04.10 21:04:00 - [9] Edited by: Corduroy Rab on 10/04/2009 21:06:47 Edited by: Corduroy Rab on 10/04/2009 21:06:18 I am also curious about about how rampant killmail manipulation is, but more out of curiosity. However, I cannot support the idea of a central killboard. It is hard enough to get fights in eve without people having to worry about their kb efficiency. If you treat killboards as a press release/propaganda instruments by corps/alliances the concept killmail faking becomes a lot less offensive. Additionally, I think instituting a centralized killboard would not be needed as eve pvp is not like that of a single dimensional fps game, where I could see an idea like this being more appropriate. edit: words hate me
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.04.11 01:14:00 - [10] I'd like to see killmails completely removed. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic

iudex Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.04.11 01:57:00 - [11] I've been suggesting it right at the beginning of militia, to have a CCP run killboard (since we don't have the discipline of alliances, we can't kick fakers out or enforce that people post their kill-/lossmails). CCP could at least put a GM as CEO of each militia so that he can forward the killmails like corp leaders can do, via API. Whenever i made this threads people jumped in and derailed the proposals with statements like "killmails are only epeen anyways", "militia are roleplayers, don't need killmails", "killmails make this game like e-sports, we don't want that" etc. Faction Standings: Serpentis +7.81 // Angel Cartel +7.60 // Minmatar Republic -8.68 // Gallente Federation -9.88
Corduroy Rab Chaos Reborn Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.04.11 03:03:00 - [12] Originally by: iudex I've been suggesting it right at the beginning of militia, to have a CCP run killboard (since we don't have the discipline of alliances, we can't kick fakers out or enforce that people post their kill-/lossmails). CCP could at least put a GM as CEO of each militia so that he can forward the killmails like corp leaders can do, via API. Whenever i made this threads people jumped in and derailed the proposals with statements like "killmails are only epeen anyways", "militia are roleplayers, don't need killmails", "killmails make this game like e-sports, we don't want that" etc. Questioning the need and appropriateness of a mechanic that is proposed is not derailing. I will say that in the limited case of FW having milita members have some access to kills on which other member of their militia relieved the mail might be ok. Since the information is already provided by ccp in aggregate, and hunting down kills in militia is very annoying, that said, there are prob only 1 or 2 mails that I was not able to get while I was in FW.
Agent Known Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.04.11 06:15:00 - [13] API linking KMs = no such thing as a "fake" killboard. You can't always 100% trust the corp-hosted boards. Usually GriefWatch has the right mails listed. Obviously what I say isn't always what my alliance thinks. I hate to break it to you, but this is in fact my signature. Proud ally of CVA
Fourty Niner	Posted - 2009.04.11 09:47:00 - [14] Edited by: Fourty Niner on 11/04/2009 09:48:10 Im against this. Not because I fake my KMs, quite the opposite, I DONT post my (mains) kills. And supprisingly enough most of the time neither do my victims. Though all my (mains) losses seem to be posted to the point Ive been posted as podded more times than I have. (I didnt count this My CEO did) I have even had arguments with the CEO for posting my kills on my behalf, and in FW the "KB Groupies" would get anoyed when I would state upfrount that I wasnt posting any kills I got the mail for. Why? My corp EMpire War decs, and nearly always its better to have a perceved lower ability than you really have. "Oh look, on BC XXXX has been killed 80 times, and only kiled 6 ships. He must be ****, lets undock and kill him" Result? I Get to PVP, nearly always do alot better than the targets expect, they post their Kills, but "forget" to post thier losses, I look even worse.
Intigo Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.04.11 10:22:00 - [15] If something is faked it's found out and the people responsible are laughed at. This happens just about every time as there are multiple ways to ensure a mail is not faked. The fact that we get to laugh at idiots like united means I whole-heartedly support not changing a single thing about the system as it is. ___________________ ENEMA, much love. <3
Mac The'Knife Black'Tooth'Grin	Posted - 2009.04.11 11:21:00 - [16] Edited by: Mac The''Knife on 11/04/2009 11:22:58 Originally by: Fourty Niner Edited by: Fourty Niner on 11/04/2009 09:48:10 My corp EMpire War decs, and nearly always its better to have a perceved lower ability than you really have. "Oh look, on BC XXXX has been killed 80 times, and only kiled 6 ships. He must be ***, lets undock and kill him" Result? I Get to PVP, nearly always do alot better than the targets expect, they post their Kills, but "forget" to post thier losses, I look even worse. ^^ This is good. edit Originally by: Intigo If something is faked it's found out and the people responsible are laughed at. This happens just about every time as there are multiple ways to ensure a mail is not faked. The fact that we get to laugh at idiots like united means I whole-heartedly support not changing a single thing about the system as it is. This is better. Having a single absolute KB, would probably just encourage more stat whoring. If your into that, go play CoD. Some people think it, a pilot's skill is not based on their KD ratio. Pilots roles are diverse, and combat in EvE is complex enough that KMs do not always paint the whole picture. Besides, you can usually cross reference KMs with enough sources to get a straight answer anyway if you actually needed to. This way to, as you noted in the link, you can point out the corps and players are missing a pair. Having the mails save in your character sheet and no longer in your eve-mail was enough of an improvement for me.
Durzel The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2009.04.11 16:54:00 - [17] PGP signed killmails?
Molly Milli0ns	Posted - 2009.04.11 18:00:00 - [18] People fake mails but you can usually tell. Ultimately someone has the real killmail and will post it somewhere. Its just points and statistics anyways, what really happened is what matters. Editing killmails to get all your corpmates on it, though... that's just sad. But it's obvious enough that people know if you keep it up, and therefore your sadness is public.
Hagi Yakumota	Posted - 2009.04.12 05:22:00 - [19] Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri I'd like to see killmails completely removed. I don't think that would change anything, people would still create their own killmails for self gratification. Also, remember killmails do more than just boast. They serve to show how people were fitted after you kill them or what type of ammunition they used to kill you. If nothing else, I like it so I know exactly what dropped from a kill rather than the possibility of people in your corp taking items and saying nothing or very little dropped from a kill.
Xavier Sunder	Posted - 2009.04.12 05:57:00 - [20] Killmails have pretty much nothing to do with the game except allowing people to brag/whine. No one worries about "trademails" where you post some great price you bought something at and the huge profit you made, showing your excellent trade skills. If someone has 100 killmails knocking down titans with his/her capsule, it is completely irrelevant when they are facing me in space.

Sin Fae Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2009.04.12 07:39:00 - [21] Yeah I really don't see killboards as really that meaningful beyond figuring out what kind of ship someone flies if I don't know. We jumped a guy the other day and the guy ejected from his T2 ship and then self destructed his pod. Only thing we could figure is avoiding a killmail. Kinda sad really. Generally I'll only post unique or interesting kills, like my buzzard victories. As said before having your name all over the place in the ship you fly isn't very smart imo, (it is important for say merc folks tho). As far as faking killmails, that has been rampant since 2003. There will always be people like that, and it doesn't really bother me. . .
Xianbei	Posted - 2009.04.13 18:21:00 - [22] Edited by: Xianbei on 13/04/2009 18:27:34 Originally by: Corduroy Rab However, I cannot support the idea of a central killboard. It is hard enough to get fights in eve without people having to worry about their kb efficiency. very odd argument that, forced to be honest, players will choose to fight less ? interesting and very sad if true Originally by: Tsumei Meyren People who worry too much about killboards need to get their panties out of a twist in the first place in my opinion so many holes in this statement. where to start. well, what qualifies as "too much" and who gets to decide. you ? if you dont care about killboards or the stats, why even care if there is a central KB ? it affects you not at all. or are you not revealing your full motives ? would you then say that KM info should not be generated or shared at all ? and if you believe that it should be shared in some fashion as it is now, why argue against trying to keep that data accurate ? obviously KB stats ARE important to a lot of people...some of which find it SO important they are willing to falsify kills. so far the "its all about epeen" whiners argument works against them since they shouldn't even care about this topic at all. the other common argument that it would reduce pvp saddens me
Intigo Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.04.13 20:19:00 - [23] Originally by: Xianbei Edited by: Xianbei on 13/04/2009 18:27:34 Originally by: Corduroy Rab However, I cannot support the idea of a central killboard. It is hard enough to get fights in eve without people having to worry about their kb efficiency. very odd argument that, forced to be honest, players will choose to fight less ? interesting and very sad if true Originally by: Tsumei Meyren People who worry too much about killboards need to get their panties out of a twist in the first place in my opinion so many holes in this statement. where to start. well, what qualifies as "too much" and who gets to decide. you ? if you dont care about killboards or the stats, why even care if there is a central KB ? it affects you not at all. or are you not revealing your full motives ? would you then say that KM info should not be generated or shared at all ? and if you believe that it should be shared in some fashion as it is now, why argue against trying to keep that data accurate ? obviously KB stats ARE important to a lot of people...some of which find it SO important they are willing to falsify kills. so far the "its all about epeen" whiners argument works against them since they shouldn't even care about this topic at all. the other common argument that it would reduce pvp saddens me Get over it. Read my reply. ___________________ ENEMA, much love. <3
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2009.04.13 20:20:00 - [24] Edited by: Andrea Griffin on 13/04/2009 20:21:06 I'm not sure why CCP doesn't have a central kill board of some kind (perhaps less people would play if all of their losses were automatically made public like that) - I would be interested in the reasoning. It may also be a lack of resources, who knows? What would be nice would be for each kill mail to have a unique "Kill Mail ID" attached, with an API available that would accept the ID and return the original kill mail. It would be an easy way to verify that a mail is real. Of course, being able to fake kill mails makes the whole thing interesting. Someone may have an impressive list of kills, but how reliable is that information? It is one way of many to attempt to bluff - and someone may post a contradictory kill mail, but at that point who do you trust? Establishing trust, or the lack of it, is one of the things that makes Eve fun. You never really know who is lying to you.
Rashmika Clavain Gallente Revelation Space	Posted - 2009.04.14 13:30:00 - [25] Originally by: Murashu Faked/bogus killmails happen daily and it's really up to Corp leaders to ensure people are posting accurately. I go thru my Corp losses/kills tab once a week to ensure no one "forgets" to post a KM. I religously check our kills and losses, and nag my corp members to make they post. However I have noticed something very strange. I was double corp losses and found that during a factional warfare period, there was a twenty day gap in the Corp loss and kill log. I know there were kills there last month in that twenty day period as I was waiting on a corp member to post one of them. I did some more digging and have found other instances where we have killmails posted (they are real) but they have disppeared from the Corp logs. When I get five minutes, I'll bug report it. Removed. Please keep your EVE signature related to your EVE persona and not that of a real life politician. Navigator
Xianbei	Posted - 2009.04.14 13:53:00 - [26] Originally by: Intigo Get over it. Read my reply. i dont see the word DEV by your name oh great one please exit the thread if you have nothing to add your reply is pathetic and a waste of pixels
Xianbei	Posted - 2009.04.14 13:55:00 - [27] Originally by: Andrea Griffin Edited by: Andrea Griffin on 13/04/2009 20:21:06 I'm not sure why CCP doesn't have a central kill board of some kind (perhaps less people would play if all of their losses were automatically made public like that) - I would be interested in the reasoning. It may also be a lack of resources, who knows? What would be nice would be for each kill mail to have a unique "Kill Mail ID" attached, with an API available that would accept the ID and return the original kill mail. It would be an easy way to verify that a mail is real. Of course, being able to fake kill mails makes the whole thing interesting. Someone may have an impressive list of kills, but how reliable is that information? It is one way of many to attempt to bluff - and someone may post a contradictory kill mail, but at that point who do you trust? Establishing trust, or the lack of it, is one of the things that makes Eve fun. You never really know who is lying to you. this API idea is also very interesting. integrate the KM into the normal API which avoids having to have a central KB but still allow verification /i cant believe a dev hasnt moved this to features and ideas. thats where i meant to put this but screwed it up with too many windows open.
wowtard	Posted - 2009.04.14 17:51:00 - [28] I just assume that all killmails are fake. Reasoning is that anyone who bothers to post them actually cares about them, and anyone who actually cares about them must be pretty immature, and immature people are generally liars.
Xianbei	Posted - 2009.04.14 19:18:00 - [29] Originally by: wowtard I just assume that all killmails are fake. Reasoning is that anyone who bothers to post them actually cares about them, and anyone who actually cares about them must be pretty immature, and immature people are generally liars. itt toon name is highly accurate. perhaps bold the 'wow' for more effect.
wowtard	Posted - 2009.04.14 20:25:00 - [30] But seriously, killmails are pretty much meaningless as anything more than a learning/strategy tool. It's not the epeen thing that's annoying so much as how killmails are inappropriately viewed as a metric for success (lacking in any context as they are).



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