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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.04.13 23:58:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Razin on 14/04/2009 00:01:24
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Verlokiraptor If it's made passive it will be significantly more powerful once you consider it will gain from all 8 resist module compensation skills.
It doesn't benefit from them now as it's not considered a hardener. Doubt that much would change.
You're wrong. This is actually the reason why CCP decided to make it an active module. Well, at least that was the devs' explanation at the time [just read Tux's reply]. ...
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.04.14 00:41:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Razin Edited by: Razin on 14/04/2009 00:01:24
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Verlokiraptor If it's made passive it will be significantly more powerful once you consider it will gain from all 8 resist module compensation skills.
It doesn't benefit from them now as it's not considered a hardener. Doubt that much would change.
You're wrong. This is actually the reason why CCP decided to make it an active module. Well, at least that was the devs' explanation at the time [just read Tux's reply].
Making it active wouldn't stop it from benefiting from the compensation skills. Try reading the skill description!
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.04.14 01:09:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Sirani reinforcing my theory that EVE is based on code from some guys basement and to this day the devs still struggle to actually make additions and improvements to the game. it's like if it wasn't "in the code" to begin with, you can't "add" any new functionality..
say, you don't even have the source code do you? you're using some kind of "RPG Maker" but for space games, aren't you? because that's what it seems like.
with regard to the damage control, so since you said "back then", does this mean now you do have a way of assigning an item a property of only being able to equip one so you can fix it? or what?
Stop being a whiny, insolent little peon. I'll be the first to slap CCP for code reuse when it affects gameplay, and there are an embarrassing amount of examples you could've *****ed about.
But the solution described by Tuxford achieves the same result without any gameplay differences. All you need to do is remember to turn it on. God forbid they ask players to activate their modules to receive effects.
When there is no benefit to adding new code, all you do is waste time and add complexity. You also run the risk of bloating the client and hampering performance.
If there's a reason to add that module restriction mechanic now, it's not because of the DCU but all the other modules released since then.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.04.14 03:04:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Razin Edited by: Razin on 14/04/2009 00:01:24
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Verlokiraptor If it's made passive it will be significantly more powerful once you consider it will gain from all 8 resist module compensation skills.
It doesn't benefit from them now as it's not considered a hardener. Doubt that much would change.
You're wrong. This is actually the reason why CCP decided to make it an active module. Well, at least that was the devs' explanation at the time [just read Tux's reply].
Making it active wouldn't stop it from benefiting from the compensation skills. Try reading the skill description!
Well, you're definitely wrong here. The active hardeners provide a resistance benefit even when inactive. This inactive benefit is affected by the compensation skills. The DC module provides zero benefit when inactive. ...
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Jas Dor
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.04.14 03:35:00 -
[35]
Originally by: isAzmodeus This makes sense, and actually cuts 1 more module activation/re-activation from having to be communicated between client and server.
/signed.
Yeah but the server assigns resources in a lag "best first". If you've had a couple modules going for half an hour without any lag issues, when lag hits you're going to get better results then the poor guy who's all passive but his guns. Names, Dates, Times, Engagements, Losses, Op-Tempo or STFU! |

Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.04.14 04:00:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Razin
The active hardeners provide a resistance benefit even when inactive. This inactive benefit is affected by the compensation skills. The DC module provides zero benefit when inactive.
The 1% inactive resistance is not affected by the compensation skill. If it was it would either be 16% at maximum, or 1.25% depending on if it were additive or multiplicative. Instead, it is just replaced.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |

ollobrains
Caldari State Inc.
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Posted - 2009.04.14 06:30:00 -
[37]
replacement is easier
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Kerdrak
3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.14 08:36:00 -
[38]
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Back in the day before I became a programmer with cynical outlook on live I used to be game designer and was actually involved when we changed the functionality of damage controls. This was back in the day when TomB and Hammerhead were mostly doing the balancing and I was their intern math *****.
Now we decided that we'd want the damage control to be a really powerful defensive module but we didn't want people to just fill up their lows with it making all other defensive mods obsolete so we also decided that you could only fit one at a time. At that point we didn't really have the luxury of programming time and we did not have any tools to create a module where only one could be fitted. We did however have a functionality where we could only activate x module at a time so we decided that the damage control would have to be activated but have really low cap need.
So there you have it, the reason dc's use cap in an overly long story 
What's the reason on Drone Control Units then? (the +1 drone carrier module) ________________________________________ [img]http://www.atlas-alliance.com/killboard-new/sig.php/4652/alliancerank/signature.jpg[/img |

Thenoran
Caldari Tranquility Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.14 08:57:00 -
[39]
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Back in the day before I became a programmer with cynical outlook on live I used to be game designer and was actually involved when we changed the functionality of damage controls. This was back in the day when TomB and Hammerhead were mostly doing the balancing and I was their intern math *****.
Now we decided that we'd want the damage control to be a really powerful defensive module but we didn't want people to just fill up their lows with it making all other defensive mods obsolete so we also decided that you could only fit one at a time. At that point we didn't really have the luxury of programming time and we did not have any tools to create a module where only one could be fitted. We did however have a functionality where we could only activate x module at a time so we decided that the damage control would have to be activated but have really low cap need.
So there you have it, the reason dc's use cap in an overly long story 
Might be wrong, be can't you only squeeze one Bomb Launcher on an SB? Maybe use the coding for that?  ------------------------ Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
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CrestoftheStars
Caldari Eternum Pariah
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Posted - 2009.04.14 15:56:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Grez
Originally by: Akura kawanaka as it is, they will de-activate if the pilot runs out of cap - a good incentive to use Nos's.
Even with 12 neuts and some nos on me yesterday, my DCU stayed active the entire time. I too think it should be passive - it has CPU requirements to match an EANM.
this
but one more think, IT SHOULD STACKED PENELIZE AS EVERYTHING ELSE.. thank you :P it is the only resist that doesn't get stacking penalty (either that or remove the penalty from two different modules that effect the same resist.) ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
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CrestoftheStars
Caldari Eternum Pariah
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Posted - 2009.04.14 16:03:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Razin If it's made passive it will be significantly more powerful once you consider it will gain from all 8 resist module compensation skills.
It doesn't benefit from them now as it's not considered a hardener. Doubt that much would change.
and on another note.. why again don't the skill have any effect at all on activated modules?, this is just stupid and unfairly gives a advantage to passive modules, it should at least give 1% per lvl to activated modules (or 2-3% also when active would be more reasonable) ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |

Grez
Minmatar Core Contingency
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Posted - 2009.04.14 17:55:00 -
[42]
DCU for presi..uh, passive! --- Grez: I shot the sheriff Kalazar: But I could not lock the Deputy BECAUSE OF FALCON |
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CCP Tuxford

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Posted - 2009.04.14 18:52:00 -
[43]
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
IT SHOULD STACKED PENELIZE AS EVERYTHING ELSE..
No. It doesn't matter if you capitalize the letter, make them bold or increase their size you're just plain wrong. The damage control is not stacking penalized with hardeners and that is by design. We wanted it that way and went out of our way to make it so.
You may want it some other way but this is the way we want it. _______________ |
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Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2009.04.14 18:53:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Wet Ferret Edited by: Wet Ferret on 14/04/2009 04:07:16
Originally by: Razin
The active hardeners provide a resistance benefit even when inactive. This inactive benefit is affected by the compensation skills. The DC module provides zero benefit when inactive.
The 1% inactive resistance is not affected by the compensation skill. If it was it would either be 16% at maximum, or 1.15% depending on if it were additive or multiplicative. Instead, it is just replaced.
Try it for yourself. Inactive hardeners, both shield and armor, provide a 3% per level resistance bonus when inactive so if all of your shield comp skills are to IV, that Invul Field you have fitted will provide you with 12% resists across the board even when its inactive. This resist bonus is additive, and I think it's the only one in the game because you're not modifying some base value, you're replacing it. The 5% per level to passive hardeners is multiplicative because like pretty much every other resistance relationship in the game, it modifies some base value.
As for DCs, leave them as-is. As passive modules they would be overpowered if they got the compensation bonuses and changing the code to make them passive but not recieve the bonuses makes them pretty much the same as they are now. I'm all in favor of allowing them to be overheated to increase their duration which woud make them harder to deactivate. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |

Silc'n
Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.14 19:02:00 -
[45]
So, can we expect a change after the next patch? I'm guessing it's not difficult to implement now. -------------------------------- Goons in Blackbirds are awesome. |

Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2009.04.14 19:24:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Silc'n Edited by: Silc''n on 14/04/2009 19:10:51 So, can we expect a change after the next patch? I'm guessing it's not difficult to implement now.
DCs are they currently way the devs want them, and having them that way doesn't hurt anything else, so I'd say no. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |

5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.04.14 20:03:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Sirani Edited by: Sirani on 13/04/2009 23:33:38
Originally by: CCP Tuxford

reinforcing my theory that EVE is based on code from some guys basement and to this day the devs still struggle to actually make additions and improvements to the game. it's like if it wasn't "in the code" to begin with, you can't "add" any new functionality..
say, you don't even have the source code do you? you're using some kind of "RPG Maker" but for space games, aren't you? because that's what it seems like.
PMSL 
if you disagree with me then you should probably post a response and stop reading my signature. |

Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.04.14 22:10:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Wet Ferret on 14/04/2009 22:18:10
Originally by: Bronson Hughes
Originally by: Wet Ferret Edited by: Wet Ferret on 14/04/2009 04:07:16
Originally by: Razin
The active hardeners provide a resistance benefit even when inactive. This inactive benefit is affected by the compensation skills. The DC module provides zero benefit when inactive.
The 1% inactive resistance is not affected by the compensation skill. If it was it would either be 16% at maximum, or 1.15% depending on if it were additive or multiplicative. Instead, it is just replaced.
Try it for yourself. Inactive hardeners, both shield and armor, provide a 3% per level resistance bonus when inactive so if all of your shield comp skills are to IV, that Invul Field you have fitted will provide you with 12% resists across the board even when its inactive. This resist bonus is additive, and I think it's the only one in the game because you're not modifying some base value, you're replacing it. The 5% per level to passive hardeners is multiplicative because like pretty much every other resistance relationship in the game, it modifies some base value.
As for DCs, leave them as-is. As passive modules they would be overpowered if they got the compensation bonuses and changing the code to make them passive but not recieve the bonuses makes them pretty much the same as they are now. I'm all in favor of allowing them to be overheated to increase their duration which woud make them harder to deactivate.
Try what, exactly? I don't need to try anything to know what I said is exactly right. You just reiterated what I said in a lot more words anyway. So are you disagreeing with me or agreeing with me?
You don't know it would be affected by the compensation skills if it were made passive. It's more reasonable to assume it wouldn't, based on the fact that DCs don't have the same attributes as active hardeners.
Though perhaps Tuxford could clear this up since he seems to have an intimate knowledge of how DCs work.
edit - I failed
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.04.14 23:04:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Wet Ferret Edited by: Wet Ferret on 14/04/2009 04:07:16
Originally by: Razin
The active hardeners provide a resistance benefit even when inactive. This inactive benefit is affected by the compensation skills. The DC module provides zero benefit when inactive.
The 1% inactive resistance is not affected by the compensation skill. If it was it would either be 16% at maximum, or 1.15% depending on if it were additive or multiplicative. Instead, it is just replaced.
What the hell are you talking about??
...
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.04.14 23:49:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Wet Ferret on 14/04/2009 23:50:30
Originally by: Razin
What the hell are you talking about??
Why don't you read it a few more times until you get it. If the skill were working off the bonus it would NOT be 15%, it would be either 16% or 1.15%, it isn't because the 1% is not being affected, it's being replaced (unless you want to argue that replaced = affected but no other skills in game work like that).
Why would 25% to passive hardeners make 10% resistance into 12.5% resistance but 15% to inactive hardeners make 1% into 15%? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense does it?
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.04.15 01:33:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Wet Ferret Edited by: Wet Ferret on 14/04/2009 23:50:30
Originally by: Razin
What the hell are you talking about??
Why don't you read it a few more times until you get it.
You need to read what you wrote a few times. Here's the relevant quote:
Originally by: Wet Ferret The 1% inactive resistance is not affected by the compensation skill.
It clearly is. The rest is your attempt at sophistry. ...
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.04.15 02:05:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Wet Ferret Edited by: Wet Ferret on 14/04/2009 23:50:30
Originally by: Razin
What the hell are you talking about??
Why don't you read it a few more times until you get it.
You need to read what you wrote a few times. Here's the relevant quote:
Originally by: Wet Ferret The 1% inactive resistance is not affected by the compensation skill.
It clearly is. The rest is your attempt at sophistry.

Good job cutting out the bit where I explain why it isn't. Not that you couldn't have figured it out just be reading the rest of the post that you pulled that quote from.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |

Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2009.04.15 03:31:00 -
[53]
I think I see where you're coming from now, but it's just mincing words. Yes, the bonuses on inactive hardeners get replaced by the bonuses granted by the compensation skills. Yes the math is different (15% total @ level V) because this is pretty much the only place in EvE where percents add instead of multiply.
Whether or not that qualifies as 'affecting' the resist is up to the reader, but the end result is that the resist changes as the appropriate skill changes. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |

Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.04.15 04:19:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Bronson Hughes I think I see where you're coming from now, but it's just mincing words. Yes, the bonuses on inactive hardeners get replaced by the bonuses granted by the compensation skills. Yes the math is different (15% total @ level V) because this is pretty much the only place in EvE where percents add instead of multiply.
Whether or not that qualifies as 'affecting' the resist is up to the reader, but the end result is that the resist changes as the appropriate skill changes.
What I was getting at is that the inactive active hardeners aren't benefiting from the skill due to the 1% base resist, but because they're designated as hardeners. And as a DC isn't designated as a hardener, it doesn't gain anything when inactive. It was a counter to the argument that the reason that inactive hardeners get a boost from the skills is due to that 1%, because the skill doesn't seem to be acting upon that 1% at all.
Who knows, though.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |

Shai Haluu'd
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Posted - 2009.04.15 08:01:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Shai Haluu''d on 15/04/2009 08:05:58 Pointless...
What's the reason for making the DCU passive or having longer cycle? Being too lazy or too absent-minded is not an excuse, if you are physically or mentally unable to use it don't fit it at all. If you find EVE too challenging maybe you ought to look somewhere else. I mean all you have to do is click on the module, is it that hard? It's the same with resists, weapons and everything else. I mean what's next - a "press here to win" button? If the game continues to simplify things I can foresee a time when all you need to "play" is login.
Edit: FYI a DCU will deactivate when you run out of cap. If you got out of empire, where you can only see a pilgrim or a curse in the Amarr museum of technological marvels, you'd know.
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Grez
Minmatar Core Contingency
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Posted - 2009.04.15 09:20:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Grez on 15/04/2009 09:21:34 Guys guys guys...
Consolidate all your monthly paym... uh, facts and ideas together. All I see are arguments going on about how it'll be too powerful if it becomes passive.
I'll bold this just to make it clear to those people.
If, by some miracle the DCU becomes passive, it is not classed as a hardener and will not benefit from passive resist skills, hence, it will just become a passive DCU, and not increase in strength.
Neither will ships be capable of fitting more than one.
All that we want, is for the annoying 1 cap usage per cycle of the thing to get removed. Tuxford already told us that it was changed that way because it was a quick way of making sure only one was capable of being activated/fitted at once.
I personally have been neuted to hell and back, but there will always be that second where your cap recharges to 5, or maybe more. In that second, you can turn your DCU on. It makes absolutely no difference and at most, you may suffer from a second of no DCU. Get a player, or even players to neut you to hell, and mouse over your cap reading - you will see that it will recharge slightly, not a lot, but slightly.
It's annoying, because some people forget (it's easy to do, people often just activate it and leave it). Since they have the tools to implement it how they originally wanted, and it has the CPU usage of other passive resists (EANM for example), I personally think it should become the passive module that it sounds it was always destined to be.
Not to mention it would make guessing/knowning of resists a lot easier in the fitting window without having to undock and turn it on. --- Grez: I shot the sheriff Kalazar: But I could not lock the Deputy BECAUSE OF FALCON |

Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.15 09:57:00 -
[57]
The "DCU use cap so they can be deactivated killing the cap of a ship" argument is really weak.
The only strong reason against making the CU passive is that it will allow a strong passive hull tanking for AFK transport in high sec.
Combining bulkheads and DCU it will be possible to get reasonably tanked and reasonably fast AFK hauling for mid sized cargoes.
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Silc'n
Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.15 11:46:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Shai Haluu'd Edited by: Shai Haluu''d on 15/04/2009 08:05:58 Pointless...
What's the reason for making the DCU passive or having longer cycle? Being too lazy or too absent-minded is not an excuse, if you are physically or mentally unable to use it don't fit it at all. If you find EVE too challenging maybe you ought to look somewhere else. I mean all you have to do is click on the module, is it that hard? It's the same with resists, weapons and everything else. I mean what's next - a "press here to win" button? If the game continues to simplify things I can foresee a time when all you need to "play" is login.
Edit: FYI a DCU will deactivate when you run out of cap. If you got out of empire, where you can only see a pilgrim or a curse in the Amarr museum of technological marvels, you'd know.

Try not to miss the point.
I'll indulge into your way of thinking though...
Have you ever done a titan bridge into a very hostile system? Like, 800 local with 10+ dummy cynos etc?
If you have, you know that most "fleet BS" are passively tanked and their only "active" tanking module is the DCU. And I'm using the quotes to show that it's not really active, ie consumes cap, it's just a module you need to "turn on".
After the bridge a)you're not cloaked b)you won't have any modules active, including your DCU. Basically that means your vanilla flavored fleet bs that's supposed to be DD proof will NOT be DD proof until you press the DCU... and this is where the lag monster hits (remember, you're bridging into a system with a 800 local count).
So, yeah, sometimes it's not about "forgetting" or any other type of convoluted reasoning some of you dudes seem to use to great extent... you're just UNABLE to turn it on because of lag. Keep that in mind.
And, for the last time, it's practically impossible to turn off a DCU with neuts. The theoretical way to do it is to time your neut to match the hostile's DCU cycle and push its cap down to 0 the moment the DCU asks for 1(one) Energy. If you ever manage to do it... :clap-clap: you're awesome! vOv -------------------------------- Goons in Blackbirds are awesome. |

Kerdrak
3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.15 11:55:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Kerdrak on 15/04/2009 11:55:35
Originally by: Kerdrak
Originally by: CCP Tuxford We did however have a functionality where we could only activate x module at a time so we decided that the damage control would have to be activated but have really low cap need.
So there you have it, the reason dc's use cap in an overly long story 
What's the reason on Drone Control Units then? (the +1 drone carrier module)
Sorry for bothering, but still guessing if DCU's could be passive modules. ________________________________________ [img]http://www.atlas-alliance.com/killboard-new/sig.php/4652/alliancerank/signature.jpg[/img |

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.04.15 20:06:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Bronson Hughes I think I see where you're coming from now, but it's just mincing words. Yes, the bonuses on inactive hardeners get replaced by the bonuses granted by the compensation skills. Yes the math is different (15% total @ level V) because this is pretty much the only place in EvE where percents add instead of multiply.
Whether or not that qualifies as 'affecting' the resist is up to the reader, but the end result is that the resist changes as the appropriate skill changes.
That's funny, it looks to me like a clear and documented case of cause and effect: train the comp. skill -> get increase in passive hardener resist.
I mean, you preface and conclude with something reasonable, yet you also include the "up to the reader" qualifier that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever in the context.
Must be a cultural thing. ...
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