Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Notice that there aren't any thirty page threads complaining about how horrible it is, about how unfair it is, about how impractical it is. There is nothing wrong with it. Players have adapted and are having great success surviving in w-space systems without the need for local as an intel tool.

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Originally by: Feilamya

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Notice that there aren't any thirty page threads complaining about how horrible it is, about how unfair it is, about how impractical it is. There is nothing wrong with it. Players have adapted and are having great success surviving in w-space systems without the need for local as an intel tool.

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Many have "adapted" by simply not going to w-space...

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Originally by: Zaknussem

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And meta-gaming shenanigans will increase, as the alliances will want their intel by any means possible.

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Originally by: Zaknussem

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Riiiight. Because 1 month has passed and no one has whined about how delayed local sucks, everyone is happy-happy with it?

I'm not saying that delayed local is worse than instant local, but you sure are jumping the gun on gauging people's reactions to it.

It's been said before, many have "adapted" to it by simply not going into Sleeper space. Which is understandable since there is no reason to go there at this time. Right now T3 is not worth the bother. But that will change, which will lead to more people braving into Sleeper space, which might lead to some complaints surfacing.

As for 0.0 and delayed local, you're "conveniently" forgetting the people that own 0.0. They have yet to give their opinion on delayed local. The reason they aren't whining about it because it isn't being planned for 0.0 at this moment, merely "considered". The moment CCP drops the announcement that 0.0 will be getting delayed local, expect threadnaughts deployed in spam mode all over the forums.

Then there's the question of whether delayed 0.0 will actually do anything "good" for 0.0. Will it stop blobbing? Hell, no. Will it stop gatecamps? Actually, I think it'll increase gatecamps. Instead of key chokepoints being gatecamped, there'll be camps almost everywhere. And meta-gaming shenanigans will increase, as the alliances will want their intel by any means possible.

I think this thread is about 6 months premature, at the least.

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Originally by: Jolla Skyia

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Edited by: Jolla Skyia on 13/04/2009 14:11:14

0.0 space is filled with people that think PVP means camping on a gate with a warp bubble, warping a 50 man blob to kill a solo pirate or shooting at POS's all day.

As much as I could see the benefit in no local, it would make travel in 0.0 tedious at best for anyone not in the local alliance. It would allow gate camps with no warning to anyone.

In the current system no local would help the big space holding alliances far more than it would even anything out. All the big alliances have intel channels already, so local isn't needed for them.

Local is however needed for the small roaming group or solo pirates that are out hunting. Sorry but the big 0.0 alliances already have it easy enough in most cases to defend their space once they get it, no nee to make it even easier.

It works in WH space because no one owns that space and everyone is on a equal playing field when it comes to intel. 0.0 is no where close to the same.

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Originally by: Zaknussem

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Riiiight. Because 1 month has passed and no one has whined about how delayed local sucks, everyone is happy-happy with it?

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Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon

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If I had my way, there'd be a lot of things I'd change. Local would be one of them, as well as the constant statistics on the map. I am 100% against this kind of free intel. If you're not in the system, you shouldn't know whats going on.

But I would allow exceptions, by way of modules and new mechanics. Basically, I'd allow players to have a form of 'radar', where they receive sound notifications when ships come within 0.5au range of them. Scanning by hand would give more range, but of course has to be done by hand.

On a second note, I'd allow ships of the same fleet, corporation, alliance (or even by individual demand) to 'link' their sensors. Essentially, allow it so that what one corp member sees on his overview, another individual can see on their map, allowing for remote intel gathering.

There'd be other changes to systems, especially in 0.0. I'd make the systems much larger, with many more belts and planets and moons. Sovereignty mechanics would be done away with, and setting up an outpost would basically be "if there's space and you can keep it supplied". But there'd be other, newer structures to handle, combat structures that help in the remote monitoring of the system, or which deploy fighters on request, that kind of thing.



Lots of changes I'd make. The real question, though, is even if it makes a better game ... at what point does EvE stop becoming EvE? Is it worth changing the game world so drastically, if the end result is betraying the loyal playerbase who have spent years supporting the game we all enjoy?

Lots of stuff to think about ...

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Originally by: Mulura

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Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon

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If I had my way, there'd be a lot of things I'd change. Local would be one of them, as well as the constant statistics on the map. I am 100% against this kind of free intel. If you're not in the system, you shouldn't know whats going on.

But I would allow exceptions, by way of modules and new mechanics. Basically, I'd allow players to have a form of 'radar', where they receive sound notifications when ships come within 0.5au range of them. Scanning by hand would give more range, but of course has to be done by hand.

On a second note, I'd allow ships of the same fleet, corporation, alliance (or even by individual demand) to 'link' their sensors. Essentially, allow it so that what one corp member sees on his overview, another individual can see on their map, allowing for remote intel gathering.

There'd be other changes to systems, especially in 0.0. I'd make the systems much larger, with many more belts and planets and moons. Sovereignty mechanics would be done away with, and setting up an outpost would basically be "if there's space and you can keep it supplied". But there'd be other, newer structures to handle, combat structures that help in the remote monitoring of the system, or which deploy fighters on request, that kind of thing.



Lots of changes I'd make. The real question, though, is even if it makes a better game ... at what point does EvE stop becoming EvE? Is it worth changing the game world so drastically, if the end result is betraying the loyal playerbase who have spent years supporting the game we all enjoy?

Lots of stuff to think about ...

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Hmm I actually could support that idea, tho to expanded on the added sensors why not make the end warp bubble visible (only visually, not on overveiw) with maybe a sound. Ships with covert op cloaking devices would not produce these warp bubbles. If done right pirates would have to work abit harder, and carebears (like myself) would have to be more edgy/ready/careful as it they wouldnt know if the incoming ship was hostile or friendly.

Also a structure could be a "Gate monitor" that announces into a certain channel (defined by corp/alliance), the arrival of a player and/or their ship and/or standing set by the alliance/corp.

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Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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I completely support changing local in 0.0 to operate as it does in w-space.

It's awesome when you first pick up unknown ships on scan - you don't know if they are friend or foe, you have no pilot info so you can't check age or employement history. You have to actively engage in a cat and mouse game to try to get eyes on the unkown ships to determine if it's someone you should shoot at, hide from, wave to, or ignore.

It completely improves the immersion and gameplay.

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Originally by: Anaesthera

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All this would do is force 0.0 players to constantly have a combat probe out and clicking scan over and over again. You really think that adds a fun element to the gameplay?

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Originally by: Xen Gin

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Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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I completely support changing local in 0.0 to operate as it does in w-space.

It's awesome when you first pick up unknown ships on scan - you don't know if they are friend or foe, you have no pilot info so you can't check age or employement history. You have to actively engage in a cat and mouse game to try to get eyes on the unkown ships to determine if it's someone you should shoot at, hide from, wave to, or ignore.

It completely improves the immersion and gameplay.

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God forbid ships should have some sort of transponder.

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Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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I completely support changing local in 0.0 to operate as it does in w-space.

It's awesome when you first pick up unknown ships on scan - you don't know if they are friend or foe, you have no pilot info so you can't check age or employement history. You have to actively engage in a cat and mouse game to try to get eyes on the unkown ships to determine if it's someone you should shoot at, hide from, wave to, or ignore.

It completely improves the immersion and gameplay.

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Originally by: Marlenus

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As BE is well aware, the devs are working on some sort of unspecified suite of improved intel tools. They don't plan to mess with local in 0.0 or anywhere else until the new suite is ready.

I do fully agree that delayed local works well in w-space. But we won't see it anywhere else until the new tools come out.

I very much hope the new tools include anchorable intel platforms -- this game needs more deployable infrastructure that grants local advantages until probed down and destroyed.

Off topic, but somebody in this thread mentioned an in-system asset for sov-holders that you could use to order up some fighters, which I think makes game sense and is a really nifty idea. I'd also enjoy a structure that launches some sort of big warp-capable capital missiles, available like calling in artillery; if you can tackle the target and paint it and hold it for a few minutes until the big slow lumbering missles drop out of warp, you don't need the DPS to actually kill it. Suddenly your younger members could defend your systems in frigates.

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Originally by: Jolla Skyia

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Edited by: Jolla Skyia on 13/04/2009 17:08:42

Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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I completely support changing local in 0.0 to operate as it does in w-space.

It's awesome when you first pick up unknown ships on scan - you don't know if they are friend or foe, you have no pilot info so you can't check age or employement history. You have to actively engage in a cat and mouse game to try to get eyes on the unkown ships to determine if it's someone you should shoot at, hide from, wave to, or ignore.

It completely improves the immersion and gameplay.

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You mean it allows you to easily camp gates and use no "real" skill or tactics to get a kill. Warp bubbles are already lame enough. They already reach out 100km which is far enough out to catch anyone that warps to the gate, with no real counter other than to scan for it (if you can).

It's bad enough there are many systems that don't have belts or objects close enough to a gate to scan it down, yet that's not enough of an advantage? You also need a warp bubble to not show up on scan to make it even easier to get lame kills?

If it were up to me, warp bubble would be invisible, because they didn't exist. IMO they are very un-EVE like and just encourage laziness and use of no "real" tactics for the ones using it. Big surprise that someone whom obviously uses them would want "no local".

No local = Even less PVP and more lame gate camps and blobs.

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Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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Originally by: Jolla Skyia

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Edited by: Jolla Skyia on 13/04/2009 17:08:42

Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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I completely support changing local in 0.0 to operate as it does in w-space.

It's awesome when you first pick up unknown ships on scan - you don't know if they are friend or foe, you have no pilot info so you can't check age or employement history. You have to actively engage in a cat and mouse game to try to get eyes on the unkown ships to determine if it's someone you should shoot at, hide from, wave to, or ignore.

It completely improves the immersion and gameplay.

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You mean it allows you to easily camp gates and use no "real" skill or tactics to get a kill. Warp bubbles are already lame enough. They already reach out 100km which is far enough out to catch anyone that warps to the gate, with no real counter other than to scan for it (if you can).

It's bad enough there are many systems that don't have belts or objects close enough to a gate to scan it down, yet that's not enough of an advantage? You also need a warp bubble to not show up on scan to make it even easier to get lame kills?

If it were up to me, warp bubble would be invisible, because they didn't exist. IMO they are very un-EVE like and just encourage laziness and use of no "real" tactics for the ones using it. Big surprise that someone whom obviously uses them would want "no local".

No local = Even less PVP and more lame gate camps and blobs.

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You make many assumptions - and you know what they say about those.

I'm actually on the other sideo of the coin. I don't gate camp, and I'm normally the person who is running the gate camp or risking loss of a ship because someone is camping the gate.

I scout for a small nomadic corp that prefers 0.0 (known or wormhole) space. We don't pirate and we often deal with gate campers.

I like this change because it helps "the little guy", it helps the smaller corporations and independants operate in 0.0. Right now, as soon as I jump into a system in 0.0 every single pilot already in the system knows I arrived. If the locals believe they own the system, a blob forms and shows up in a very short time.

Losing the instant notification system benefits those who choose to travel in 0.0

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Originally by: Jolla Skyia

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Yes, but a delayed local would also hurt the small groups as much as it might help them. As I mentioned it would be a dream come true for gate campers in 0.0.

Right now, if you jump into a system in both 0.0 and low sec and see a large number of players, you instantly know there is a possibility of a gate camp. It's up to you if you decide to power back to the gate you came through or continue on risking the gate camp.

With no local or a delayed local you would never know what was waiting for you at the next gate. True the locals might not know you are there, but TBH, any Alliance that deserves their space should have guards on the gates and have a intel channel..

Delayed or no local would lead to nothing but even more gate camps, because that would be the only way to catch anyone. It would be very bad for the game and anyone whom roams around.

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Originally by: C4rnag3

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just read CCPs threads carefully. then u know that the "local-thing" is in the todo list.

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Originally by: Shenko Minara

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I'd rather they first took out a lot of the 'easy living' cushty benefits of wasting your life in Empire.

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Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon

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Scanning the gate your about to warp to is NOT that difficult or even time consuming. Nor is it hard to figure out. It's just one process that players who have grown accustomed to god-mode intelligence don't want to lose ... and to be straight and honest, there's no real misunderstanding as why.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon

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Scanning the gate your about to warp to is NOT that difficult or even time consuming. Nor is it hard to figure out. It's just one process that players who have grown accustomed to god-mode intelligence don't want to lose ... and to be straight and honest, there's no real misunderstanding as why.

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You should do this routinely anyway tbh.

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Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon

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Scanning the gate your about to warp to is NOT that difficult or even time consuming. Nor is it hard to figure out. It's just one process that players who have grown accustomed to god-mode intelligence don't want to lose ... and to be straight and honest, there's no real misunderstanding as why.

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You should do this routinely anyway tbh.

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Agreed. Many players already do.

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Originally by: Jolla Skyia

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Edited by: Jolla Skyia on 13/04/2009 17:08:42

Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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I completely support changing local in 0.0 to operate as it does in w-space.

It's awesome when you first pick up unknown ships on scan - you don't know if they are friend or foe, you have no pilot info so you can't check age or employement history. You have to actively engage in a cat and mouse game to try to get eyes on the unkown ships to determine if it's someone you should shoot at, hide from, wave to, or ignore.

It completely improves the immersion and gameplay.

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You mean it allows you to easily camp gates and use no "real" skill or tactics to get a kill. Warp bubbles are already lame enough. They already reach out 100km which is far enough out to catch anyone that warps to the gate, with no real counter other than to scan for it (if you can).

It's bad enough there are many systems that don't have belts or objects close enough to a gate to scan it down, yet that's not enough of an advantage? You also need a warp bubble to not show up on scan to make it even easier to get lame kills?

If it were up to me, warp bubble would be invisible, because they didn't exist. IMO they are very un-EVE like and just encourage laziness and use of no "real" tactics for the ones using it. Big surprise that someone whom obviously uses them would want "no local".

No local = Even less PVP and more lame gate camps and blobs.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon

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Scanning the gate your about to warp to is NOT that difficult or even time consuming. Nor is it hard to figure out. It's just one process that players who have grown accustomed to god-mode intelligence don't want to lose ... and to be straight and honest, there's no real misunderstanding as why.

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You should do this routinely anyway tbh.

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Originally by: Razin

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Originally by: Malcanis

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You should do this routinely anyway tbh.

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Currently you need to do this only if there are potential hostiles in Local. With delayed Local you will need to do this with every single gate. The volume of bookmarks will swell up again and drown the database.

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Originally by: Zaknussem

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As for 0.0 and delayed local, you're "conveniently" forgetting the people that own 0.0.

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Originally by: Zaknussem

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They have yet to give their opinion on delayed local

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Originally by: Zaknussem

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And meta-gaming shenanigans will continue, as the lazy, crybaby alliances will have to actually start defending "their" space properly, instead of relying on free intel from what is supposed to be a chat channel.

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Originally by: Zaknussem

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I think this thread is about 6 months premature, at the least.

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Originally by: ShadowMaiden

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Alliances have had too easy for too long.

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Originally by: Elisabeth Dakar

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I mostly agree with the op, but i see some issues.

We still lack a appropriate intel tool in w-space. hitting "scan" every few seconds to look for combat probes is not a good mechanic in my opinion.
Maybe a POS module or a deployable scanner array could fic this.

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Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon

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Originally by: Elisabeth Dakar

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I mostly agree with the op, but i see some issues.

We still lack a appropriate intel tool in w-space. hitting "scan" every few seconds to look for combat probes is not a good mechanic in my opinion.
Maybe a POS module or a deployable scanner array could fic this.

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I'd personally like to see the onboard scanner upgraded. Maybe allow a 'active' setting which is limited to half an au, and makes a sound whenever another ship enters within that field. This setting wouldn't work while cloaked, and would increase the signal of the ship using it (making it slightly easier for those using probes to find you).

The onboard scanner could still do it's thing like normal, but with a slight delay between scans (to prevent scan-spam, which I'm sure has an effect on lag).



This, combined with delayed local in ALL systems (or at least nulsec), would allow a player to be slightly more secure in their immediate area, even as the entire system becomes slightly less secure.

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Originally by: Trak Cranker

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Edited by: Trak Cranker on 14/04/2009 01:43:53
A couple of notes that haven't really been mentioned here or focused on enough, imo:

- Wormholes decreases the potential number and types of ships being present in a wormhole system at a given time.

- Presence and reach into wormhole systems is random and short term to a high degree. There is little to be gained or lost from the lack of intel from local. Very, very few people are fixed to a wormhole system. For the rest the threat is only to their ship and pod.

In 0.0 this could hide monster fleets preparing to wrestle away sovereignty or significantly disrupt movement/production/ressource gathering and living in general.

It would make guerilla warfare a lot easier. Which there is something to be said for. But I am not sure that it would not, given the current mechanics, create a larger a task of scanning/probing/intelling to counter the threat than would be fair.

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Originally by: Marcus Druallis

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Do you realize how much of a pain in the ass it is going to be to find targets without local? I do not support this at all.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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If there is a single aspect of w-space that is overwhelmingly successful it is the fact that it's local channel operates in delayed mode.

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Originally by: oniplE

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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If there is a single aspect of w-space that is overwhelmingly successful it is the fact that it's local channel operates in delayed mode.

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Thats both an opinion and an assumption. W-space hasnt proven itself yet and even if it had there's no telling if that is because it doesnt have local.


As for removing local in 0.0: No. I dont want to scan a 100au system with several people just to find out its empty. PVP will become like 2 gangs of blind people trying to find each other in space.

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Originally by: oniplE

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As for removing local in 0.0: No. I don't want to scan a 100au system with several people just to find out its empty. PVP will become like 2 gangs of blind people trying to find each other in space.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: oniplE

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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If there is a single aspect of w-space that is overwhelmingly successful it is the fact that it's local channel operates in delayed mode.

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Thats both an opinion and an assumption. W-space hasnt proven itself yet and even if it had there's no telling if that is because it doesnt have local.


As for removing local in 0.0: No. I dont want to scan a 100au system with several people just to find out its empty. PVP will become like 2 gangs of blind people trying to find each other in space.

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If this were the case then finding people to kill in w-space would be almost impossible. But it's not, is it? People die in w-space every day, even though it's far more remote and empty than any 0.0 area. Any competent player will be able to find people to shoot.

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Originally by: El Mauru

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Edited by: El Mauru on 14/04/2009 08:51:37
Edited by: El Mauru on 14/04/2009 08:50:23

Originally by: oniplE

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As for removing local in 0.0: No. I don't want to scan a 100au system with several people just to find out its empty. PVP will become like 2 gangs of blind people trying to find each other in space.

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The only really useful info-tool (and imho an essential one) is local-count, which needs to stay.

*edit for the spelling wizard

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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So far I've seen a pretty narrow set of responses. Basically, a few people are worried that gate camps will be worse than they are now, and due to lack of local small gangs won't be able to find fights and large blobs will prevail.

Additionally, some players are asking for all sorts of automated replacements for the local channel to substitute the functionality one for one.

Personally I think that w-space is CCP's prototype for the eventual removal of local from 0.0. I think that local should be removed from lowsec as well, but not from empire.

Removing local won't change how players conduct themselves very much in the long run when compared to how things are today. If you jump into a gate camp currently, you're dead, with or without local. If there is a planet near a gate, you're usually warping to the planet to get a gate scan before you jump through, with or without local.

If you don't have a scout in your gang, you're probably going to die to a blob, with or without local. There won't be an increase in metagaming. There won't be any functional difference in how you gather intel with scouts, other than they'll actually have to get eyes on a target instead of just looking at the local list. Adding complexity and a little bit of skill and requiring a little more effort on the part of a good scout isn't a bad thing.

The people who aren't going to like the removal of local are the people who want it easy. The people who want to rat in complete safety. The people who want to mine unguarded. The people who want their alliance space as safe as sitting in Yulai somewhere.

Removing the local crutch will only benefit the smarter, better, more skilled players. Players will still be able to quickly find populated systems via the galactic map, just as they've always done.

In my opinion smaller gangs will actually have an easier time of it in 0.0 because the blob won't be able to find them as easily. Right now it is all too easy to know for sure where someone is and lock them down. With some careful flying a smaller gang could slip past a blob if local were removed.

Is the w-space template workable for 0.0? I think so. Players don't operate any differently in w-space than they do in 0.0. At least not the ones that are successful. W-space players get along just fine without local. I don't think that the gate structure of 0.0 will significantly change how the removal of local is applied to 0.0 vs. w-space, particularly with the continued existence of the galactic map and all of it's formidable information.

Too many players want the continued existence of their little cushy country club in space. No alliance worth it's salt will have a problem adapting. Everyone is so worried about how it's going to negatively affect them. Start thinking about how it's going to negatively affect everyone else as well, in addition to the positive advantages.

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Originally by: Kalintos Tyl

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0.0 carebears will whine hard about removing of local in 0.0. Hwo they can isnta warp and cloack if someoen shows in suystem without lcoal ?:P

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Originally by: Wet Ferret

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Originally by: Kalintos Tyl

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0.0 carebears will whine hard about removing of local in 0.0. Hwo they can isnta warp and cloack if someoen shows in suystem without lcoal ?:P

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I mean really, how dare they not engage you in their ratting setups?

Damn you CCP! Damn you and your PVE content!

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Originally by: Kalintos Tyl

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0.0 carebears will whine hard about removing of local in 0.0. Hwo they can isnta warp and cloack if someoen shows in suystem without lcoal ?:P

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Is the w-space template workable for 0.0? I think so. Players don't operate any differently in w-space than they do in 0.0. At least not the ones that are successful. W-space players get along just fine without local. I don't think that the gate structure of 0.0 will significantly change how the removal of local is applied to 0.0 vs. w-space, particularly with the continued existence of the galactic map and all of it's formidable information.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Confirming that it is stupid to rat in a PvP setup

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Originally by: Wet Ferret

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Confirming that it is stupid to rat in a PvP setup

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Fix'd

Honestly, unless you're baiting, why the hell would you?

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Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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I rat in 0.0 with fittings that work for PVP because I want to be versatile and able to respond to threats and opportunities as they present themselves.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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If there is a planet near a gate, you're usually warping to the planet to get a gate scan before you jump through, with or without local.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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The people who aren't going to like the removal of local are the people who want it easy. The people who want to rat in complete safety. The people who want to mine unguarded. The people who want their alliance space as safe as sitting in Yulai somewhere.

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Quote:

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In my opinion smaller gangs will actually have an easier time of it in 0.0 because the blob won't be able to find them as easily. Right now it is all too easy to know for sure where someone is and lock them down. With some careful flying a smaller gang could slip past a blob if local were removed.

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Quote:

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W-space players get along just fine without local. I don't think that the gate structure of 0.0 will significantly change how the removal of local is applied to 0.0 vs. w-space, particularly with the continued existence of the galactic map and all of it's formidable information.

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Quote:

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Too many players want the continued existence of their little cushy country club in space. No alliance worth it's salt will have a problem adapting. Everyone is so worried about how it's going to negatively affect them. Start thinking about how it's going to negatively affect everyone else as well, in addition to the positive advantages.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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...Additionally, some players are asking for all sorts of automated replacements for the local channel to substitute the functionality one for one.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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If there is a planet near a gate, you're usually warping to the planet to get a gate scan before you jump through, with or without local.

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Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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There's a whole lot of fear of change going on in this thread.

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Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon

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At what point is it too far? I personally don't think changing local in 0.0 would be going too far, but what if it is? If entire alliances broke apart because of the change, do you honestly feel it's a worthwhile one?

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon

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At what point is it too far? I personally don't think changing local in 0.0 would be going too far, but what if it is? If entire alliances broke apart because of the change, do you honestly feel it's a worthwhile one?

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Wouldn't be the first time the 0.0 alliances have crumbled or been steamrolled effectively because of a game mechanic change.

Anyway it happens all the time. 0.0 alliances die or fold at the rate of about 1 every 1-3 weeks. Putting 0.0 local into delayed mode might briefly increase this process, but it wouldn't really change the long term rate that much IMO.

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Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon

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At what point is it too far? I personally don't think changing local in 0.0 would be going too far, but what if it is? If entire alliances broke apart because of the change, do you honestly feel it's a worthwhile one?

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Wouldn't be the first time the 0.0 alliances have crumbled or been steamrolled effectively because of a game mechanic change.

Anyway it happens all the time. 0.0 alliances die or fold at the rate of about 1 every 1-3 weeks. Putting 0.0 local into delayed mode might briefly increase this process, but it wouldn't really change the long term rate that much IMO.

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Agreed.

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Originally by: Wet Ferret

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Originally by: Kalintos Tyl

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0.0 carebears will whine hard about removing of local in 0.0. Hwo they can isnta warp and cloack if someoen shows in suystem without lcoal ?:P

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I mean really, how dare they not engage you in their ratting setups?

Damn you CCP! Damn you and your PVE content!

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Personally I think that w-space is CCP's prototype for the eventual removal of local from 0.0.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Removing local won't change how players conduct themselves very much in the long run when compared to how things are today. If you jump into a gate camp currently, you're dead, with or without local. If there is a planet near a gate, you're usually warping to the planet to get a gate scan before you jump through, with or without local.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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The people who aren't going to like the removal of local are the people who want it easy. The people who want to rat in complete safety. The people who want to mine unguarded. The people who want their alliance space as safe as sitting in Yulai somewhere.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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If there is a single aspect of w-space that is overwhelmingly successful it is the fact that it's local channel operates in delayed mode.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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There is zero downside to removing local from 0.0. The concept has proven viable and effective in w-space. It's high time that this model is extended to the 0.0 environment.

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Originally by: Kyguard

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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There is zero downside to removing local from 0.0. The concept has proven viable and effective in w-space. It's high time that this model is extended to the 0.0 environment.

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Whether or not I agree with your topic is irreleveant when you make blanket statements like the one above. To say there is zero downside to removing local from 0.0 is incredibly inaccurate and something one would only say to push their interests forward.

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Originally by: rubico1337

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i have concluded that 80% of the naysayers ITT think that mining or ratting in 0.0 should be safe without a gang.

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Originally by: Nova Fox

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Originally by: rubico1337

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i have concluded that 80% of the naysayers ITT think that mining or ratting in 0.0 should be safe without a gang.

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They're not safe with a gang even.

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Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon

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You can be relatively safe in all areas of space. In 0.0, the biggest factor is simple teamwork. Whether that teamwork is gotten through friendship or isk, it's still all about who you know and how you work together.

But for some reason, the idea that teamwork is almost certainly a requirement for safety, chafes so many MMO gamers.

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Originally by: Esmenet

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Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon

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You can be relatively safe in all areas of space. In 0.0, the biggest factor is simple teamwork. Whether that teamwork is gotten through friendship or isk, it's still all about who you know and how you work together.

But for some reason, the idea that teamwork is almost certainly a requirement for safety, chafes so many MMO gamers.

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Thats all good until you look at the reality. The teamwork needed for defence often means one or more has to be assigned incredibly boring tasks. It means endless waiting games. It means you lose potential profits compared to the ease of doing lvl 4's. It means you might have to wait to get the right people online instead of just jumping in your ship and doing lvl 4's.

On the other side is the attackers that have teamwork that is generally fun for all.

Call me scared or whatever but you have to be a big fool to bother to rat after local is removed, if there is no replacement but the moronic directional scanner.

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Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon

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Actually, it's funny you mention 'incredibly boring tasks'. So many players think that roving pirate bands or gate camps are just fun-fun-fun. Have you ever tried either? Flying through system after system after system looking for a target, only to have some group amass a 50 man fleet to come play chase and run you out of the system.

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Quote:

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Or sitting on a gate for HOURS, waiting on the off chance that someone will come to that specific gate.

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Or, did you think that the guy manning an alt scanner or who's job is full-time gate scout, is just having a blast?

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That being said, I generally laugh at anyone who complains about not being able to play solo. Awww, so you picked up a multiplayer game and get ****ed for being required to be on a team? Ever meet an anti-social quarterback? Hahahah ...

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If you want to play with yourself, EvE *might* not be the best choice for you. Sure, it can be done. Heck, I do it a lot myself. But it comes with a certain degree of risk and effort ... of WORK.

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A solo player CAN survive in a active w-space system. They can. I've done it, and I ain't great by any definition. Well, the NPC's are tough and more often death, but you can manage the player aggro quite well.

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It just takes you to submit to it. If you want easy, non-danger killing of NPC's ... can't you see that EvE ain't the game for it?

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Originally by: Drill bit

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I would at least vote on having delayed local for any ships that jump in rather than going through a gate. I understand the explanation that there's a local b/c the gate keeps tabs on who goes through them, but Black ops, and ships that use them to jump through or any of the other jumping cap ships etc should appear in a delayed local.

Titans jumping in fleets might get overpowered with that though. Then again people should be on alert if they see a neutral/red coming through the gate in a cyno ship.

IMHO that would be the most realistic and exciting to me.

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Originally by: Kahega Amielden

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Posting in a Bellum whine

...that I agree with, surprisingly. W-space is awesome. Having real risk and having to actually pay attention is awesome. Exact knowledge on how many enemies you have and when they enter system is not awesome. It's only useful for lazy gankers who can't be assed to actually look for targets, and lazy targets who can't be assed to pay attention.

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Originally by: Liz Laser

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Perhaps he should rename to Hyperbole Eternus.

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Originally by: Sky Marshal

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We can jump into a gate camp and survive (Cloak, good security BMs who permit to avoid a bubble, sucky gatecamp, etc...), but Local permit to know if there IS a gate camp in the system if we enter from an uncamped gate.

Also, players never go to the celestial object near a gate, UNLESS... There is neutrals/foe in local. So it will be mandatory if local is removed, so more time to just travel. But, a good gate camp after the removal, will camp the gate, AND camp the nearly celestial object, to be sure to counter this behaviour. Just a mobile warp bubble, two/three people and it is done, the rest staying at the gate.

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Small change in process, zero change in procedure.

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When players are operating in w-space the exact same thing occurs.

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Originally by: Sky Marshal

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I went in W-Space only 4 times for the moment, with some Corporation Operations, but I didn't apply ANY security procedures than I apply in 0.0 to avoid any neutrals/red players.

I warp at 0 of planets, etc... I don't care.

Why ? Because the probability to find a neutral/red in the same W-Space than you is LOWER than any nullsec/lowsec systems.

In fact, I consider W-Space like I consider High Sec : A safe zone.

You overestimate the "success" of W-Space.

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You've kinda shown your hand with this last bit though, friend. Part of the plus of nerfing local in nulsec, is because it helps change how you look at it.

[...]

Catch the drift? You've removed a level of certainty that ALL players rely on in nulsec, but in the same breath, you've decreased the probability of meeting another player.

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Originally by: Clair Bear

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Originally by: Marcus Druallis

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Do you realize how much of a pain in the ass it is going to be to find targets without local? I do not support this at all.

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Absolutely trivial. Here's the algorithm for optimal killboard padding:

1. Find a low truesec system with lots of belts. Easiest way is to look at Ombey's maps and look for stations.

2. Put a covops at a safe covering more than one belt with a scanner. Might have to move once in a while.

3. Logonski gank fleet in belt with an incoming ratter.

4. Gank.

5. Logoffski, optionally warping to another belt first.

Repeat until ratters stop spawning. Move to another alliance's ratting/mining ground.

You wouldn't even need a highly skilled fleet to do this. A 3-4 million SP BS pilot would make a suitable alt for this.

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Originally by: AkRoYeR

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Excellent tactic. Going to start doing this now.

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Originally by: Ghoest

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Due to the static nature of 0.0 this change would mainly make strategically located gate camps even better than they are now.

It would make 0.0 even lamer.

WH space is cool because you dont have auto-pilot sending everyone on the same predictable courses.

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Originally by: Spurty

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How life will be for me with local gone in 0.0

Start off in Empire, run missions all day until op is formed.

JC to 0.0

Wait for 100man gang to form, 100 of us undock.

Roam, get bored 5 jumps in waiting for system to be scanned and only find 12000 n00b ships which after 30mins, we discover belonged to blues anyway, turn round, dock, spin the ship.

alternative pvp

Put 200 bubbles around all of the gates to the system JC is in, wait for someone that got bored to jump in, uncloak rapiers and wait for 100 completely bored people to undock and make their way over to pop the scout from another sad sack roaming gang, then dock up again waiting to jump back to high sec.

people are too lazy to care about having to scan allday to know whats happening.

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Originally by: Spurty

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How life will be for me with local gone in 0.0

Start off in Empire, run missions all day until op is formed.

JC to 0.0

Wait for 100man gang to form, 100 of us undock.

Roam, get bored 5 jumps in waiting for system to be scanned and only find 12000 n00b ships which after 30mins, we discover belonged to blues anyway, turn round, dock, spin the ship.

alternative pvp

Put 200 bubbles around all of the gates to the system JC is in, wait for someone that got bored to jump in, uncloak rapiers and wait for 100 completely bored people to undock and make their way over to pop the scout from another sad sack roaming gang, then dock up again waiting to jump back to high sec.

people are too lazy to care about having to scan allday to know whats happening.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Liz Laser

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Perhaps he should rename to Hyperbole Eternus.

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But it's just so much fun to be dramatic and antagonistic and yank your (collective) chains. I'm continually amused that people don't understand (or refuse to accept) that while I'm serious about the message, I'm only half serious about the delivery.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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I know full well what is hyperbole and what isn't. People seem to think the wording is constructed the way it is by accident. The people who can respond without being trolled don't get trolled, and the ones who do, do. Which catagory did you fit into?

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Spurty

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How life will be for me with local gone in 0.0

Start off in Empire, run missions all day until op is formed.

JC to 0.0

Wait for 100man gang to form, 100 of us undock.

Roam, get bored 5 jumps in waiting for system to be scanned and only find 12000 n00b ships which after 30mins, we discover belonged to blues anyway, turn round, dock, spin the ship.

alternative pvp

Put 200 bubbles around all of the gates to the system JC is in, wait for someone that got bored to jump in, uncloak rapiers and wait for 100 completely bored people to undock and make their way over to pop the scout from another sad sack roaming gang, then dock up again waiting to jump back to high sec.

people are too lazy to care about having to scan allday to know whats happening.

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So your alliance would just turtle up in station systems and ignore everything else?

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Originally by: Liz Laser

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Spurty

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How life will be for me with local gone in 0.0

Start off in Empire, run missions all day until op is formed.

JC to 0.0

Wait for 100man gang to form, 100 of us undock.

Roam, get bored 5 jumps in waiting for system to be scanned and only find 12000 n00b ships which after 30mins, we discover belonged to blues anyway, turn round, dock, spin the ship.

alternative pvp

Put 200 bubbles around all of the gates to the system JC is in, wait for someone that got bored to jump in, uncloak rapiers and wait for 100 completely bored people to undock and make their way over to pop the scout from another sad sack roaming gang, then dock up again waiting to jump back to high sec.

people are too lazy to care about having to scan allday to know whats happening.

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So your alliance would just turtle up in station systems and ignore everything else?

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I can't speak for his alliance, but I'm sure they wouldn't be the first group to seize a slice of 0.0 just because OTHERS want the resources and they want to fight those OTHERS.

PvPers don't salivate over Arkanor and Bistot. They salivate at the prospect of killing people who salivate over Arkanor and Bistot. You can penetrate 0.0 to do it, but you can also seize a slice of 0.0 to do it.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Ghoest

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Due to the static nature of 0.0 this change would mainly make strategically located gate camps even better than they are now.

It would make 0.0 even lamer.

WH space is cool because you dont have auto-pilot sending everyone on the same predictable courses.

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This just in: it's not mandatory to follow thwe autopilot suggested route.

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Originally by: Ghoest

Ya but it is mandatory to go though static choke points [/quote

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Stop. No it isn't, unless you're going to somewhere in a dead end constellation.

Originally by: Wet Ferret

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And what of station camping? Are we just supposed to say "Hey, anybody out there?" before we undock?

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Stop. No it isn't, unless you're going to somewhere in a dead end constellation.

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Originally by: Ghoest

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Stop. No it isn't, unless you're going to somewhere in a dead end constellation.

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Umm maybe you arent familer with living in 0.0

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Kalintos Tyl

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0.0 carebears will whine hard about removing of local in 0.0. Hwo they can isnta warp and cloack if someoen shows in suystem without lcoal ?:P

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Won't somebody PLEASE think of the macro-ratters!!!

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