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Ryshar
Fractured Core
Fatal Ascension
6
   |
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
Learning implants are not evil or unfair. However, they are unnecessary and they give new pilots a bad first taste of EVE. Why bad? Well, new pilots immediately find out that getting into the ships they want to fly takes time. The learning implants reduce that time, and newbies will focus on getting those implants as soon as possible once they find out about them. However, they are relatively expensive for a new player and after they plug in the implants, they don't want to lose them.
For a beginner, those implants represent more than just the gametime they spent to get them. They mined or ran missions for days to get them, and to lose them would not only set them back tens of millions of ISK, it would gimp their character progression. After a new players gets these implants in his head, he becomes extremely risk averse. The idea of being podded is pretty scary to a newbie when he's carrying so much in his head.
After having learned this new behavior, a new pilot is much more likely to avoid going into lowsec or nullsec. This is generally bad for EVE. Aside from the obvious implications this has on new player experiences (they get really bored saving the damsel and killing Kruul and quit), this is not good for the EVE market. PvP is an ISK sink, and ships getting blown up creates demand for new ships.
I'm not saying that getting rid of learning implants is THE solution to getting more hisec bears out of their shells, but it would help new players be less risk-averse. Not everyone likes to PvP, but the way things are now, I don't think newbies are being given a fair chance to try it. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
567
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sounds like it would benefit people who get blown up a ton a great deal as well.
As a member of a coalition that regularly gets its people blown up, I cannot help but support this, though I have no idea if you are trolling or not ...
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Thomas Kreshant
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
I'd agree with the OP
I'm currently looking at my SP/hour and going hmm I'd like to try some FW but hmm that's going to dmg my rate if I get podded, I pretty much have OCD when it comes to these types of things so I'm sitting here going just one more skill before I take risk it, no just one more!
At this rate I might still be saying this in two years time |
Falcon Drop
Tactical Research LTD
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
Want all the SP which was accelerated by them till now be removed from everybody? |
Takseen
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
I don't like them either. They're a pretty heavy disincentive for me to do anything in w-space or null. It took years just to get rid of learning skills though, so I'm not holding my breath. |
Dragon Outlaw
Rogue Fleet
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
If I remember correctly ( I think it was during a debate with Rvrni on Eve radio), the great Mittens mentionned he would support the removal of implants because apparently it discourages a lot of players to get into PvP fights.
I think I agree with him. |
Thomas Kreshant
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
Falcon Drop wrote:Want all the SP which was accelerated by them till now be removed from everybody?
No of course not what would be the point of that. |
Romar Agent
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Don't fly what you can't afford to lose.
Comes to mind.
It's not just starships and modules. Whether it's somone fast-skilling for and scrounging together a Battleship that is then blown out of space or some implants. There are those who stay risk-averse after a loss and those that won't.
At least with implants you can sooner or later minimize risk through Jump Clones. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
2341
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
So what about hardwirings? They give significant bonuses to your performace and ISK earning potential, while being just as available and potentially costing even more than attribute implants. Not using them gimps you when competing against people who do use them, meaning pretty much everyone these days. If you just remove learning implants, people are going to stick performance implants in their place at the start, be unwilling to risk them and we will be pretty much back to square one.
This topic has been discussed to death though, if you want to see all the arguments and ideas, just read this thread. |
Hemera Asques
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
Learning implants motivate people to spend 20$ on a PLEX during their first few days in-game.
I call that win. |
Karn Dulake
Souls Must Be Trampled
The.Alliance
600
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Grudging agree with the OP
When i first started this game i was fearless. I went all over nullsec in a noob ship and did not care what happened. Once i got my +5s i did not leave highsec for 6 months and now i spent most of my time in a clone with no implants.
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion. |
Pinstar Colton
New Lunar Republic Special Tactics Squadron
26
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
Eve is a game of risk and reward. If you do not want to risk the ISK investment in implants (Attribute boosting or otherwise) then you must give up the reward of having them implanted.
EVE does give us a tool to manage this risk: Jump Clones.
You can temporarily give up the benefit of your high priced implants to reduce your risk while still having the option to return to the body with those implants at a later date. This allows you to wander into low/null without worrying about your quarter billion + original body being at risk.
I don't make minerals. I just make ore 20% cooler. |
Adria Origin
Yar Har Fiddle Di Dee
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
There's these things I heard about, I think they are called.... J... Ju... Jump ... Jump Clones? Yeah, that's it! Jump Clones. You can get implants in one, and have no implants or cheaper implants in another and use one to PVP and one to not PVP.
Get this: I also heard you don't need standings to install them in your nullsec corps station and that there are corps in the market section that let you join, get jump clones, and leave. Free.
I also heard that +3s are cheaper than +4s, and +2s are cheaper than +3s, and so on. A wise man once said: don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Implants go in your pod and you fly your pod so it applies.
Oh and no one makes you have implants. |
Acheron Cyc
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
So, you want to reduce the risk involved for those that do heavy pvp and get podded often, disguised as something of benefit for new players?.
How about no?.
When I started playing, my priorities weren't implants. If you really want to benefit new players, how about making the tutorials drop the most basic learning implants for free.
|
Tillin Sylph
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
What |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
568
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
Acheron Cyc wrote:So, you want to reduce the risk involved for those that do heavy pvp and get podded often, disguised as something of benefit for new players?.
How about no?.
When I started playing, my priorities weren't implants. If you really want to benefit new players, how about making the tutorials drop the most basic learning implants for free.
Don't they give you implants in the newbie missions?
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Takseen
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:09:00 -
[17] - Quote
Romar Agent wrote:Don't fly what you can't afford to lose.
Comes to mind.
It's not just starships and modules. Whether it's somone fast-skilling for and scrounging together a Battleship that is then blown out of space or some implants. There are those who stay risk-averse after a loss and those that won't.
At least with implants you can sooner or later minimize risk through Jump Clones.
The Jump Clone thing is over-rated. Yes if you want to do something risky you can go use the jumpclone, but now you're stuck in "low risk, low SP" mode for 24 hours. And stuck again in "high risk, high SP" mode for another 24 hours once you switch back.
Someone else brought up hardwiring. The difference is this. Hardwirings make me better at what I'm doing "right now". On that basis I can take them or leave them easily enough. But learning implants make me able to do "new things" in a few weeks/months. And being able to do new things is what keeps the game interesting.
My time spent in game peaks every time I "unlock" a new skillset, and drops off pretty fast if I spent too long trying to get the next one. |
Takseen
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Acheron Cyc wrote:So, you want to reduce the risk involved for those that do heavy pvp and get podded often, disguised as something of benefit for new players?.
How about no?.
When I started playing, my priorities weren't implants. If you really want to benefit new players, how about making the tutorials drop the most basic learning implants for free.
Don't they give you implants in the newbie missions?
They give you some +1s, yes. But the big push was to get those +3s that still only required Cybernetics I. A full set of those is 50mill, and that's not easy for a newbie to replace. Once I got them I did nothing but grind level 2s and 3s till I had enough standing for a jump clone, so I could go do some wormholes.
|
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1339
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
Andski already made this post and did it better.
And yes, I agree with the idea.
TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Hulkageddon Orphanage
1110
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
We should also get rid of T2 ships as it makes fewer people want to pvp in them |
Eva Lawson
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Agreed with OP; I want to PvP; I'm aware that this is a PvP-centric game and I don't want to be completely ignorant when it comes to that. But I AM new, and in my race to get just my skills on-par with the weakest nullsec warrior, I've been mission running nonstop to gather up ISK and shovel it back out for +4s, just to take a few hours of my 10d training times. A podding would cost me a month's worth of gametime and an obscene (to me) amount of ISK.
Quote:When I started playing, my priorities weren't implants. If you really want to benefit new players, how about making the tutorials drop the most basic learning implants for free.
Also, that. That would be the perfect balance and I wouldn't have to worry about carrying a hundred mil worth of hardware in my head just to get some respectable skills. Then I'd be more than happy to take a risk and start practicing some PvP. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
568
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:19:00 -
[22] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:We should also get rid of T2 ships as it makes fewer people want to pvp in them
But the miners would object if you took away their hulks.
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Real Poison
Aura of Darkness
Nulli Secunda
101
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
Must say attribute enhancing implants are just a turn-off for pvp. And they add absolutely nothing to gameplay.
I'd love to see them go the way of learning skills.
That'd make room for more awesome Hardwirings that add something to gameplay and still gives the risk and the chance for mockery by ppl that blow the pod up.
+1 |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
124
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:So what about hardwirings? They give significant bonuses to your performace and ISK earning potential, while being just as available and potentially costing even more than attribute implants. Not using them gimps you when competing against people who do use them, meaning pretty much everyone these days. If you just remove learning implants, people are going to stick performance implants in their place at the start, be unwilling to risk them and we will be pretty much back to square one. This topic has been discussed to death though, if you want to see all the arguments and ideas, just read this thread.
For me there is a big difference in attribute enhancers and hardwirings.
While the need to be competitive is present, cost already extends into other areas like ship fittings and faction/T2/T3 ships. The dynamic of risking more for increased performance is one of the core elements of game play and since hardwirings fit directly into that I don't see an issue. There is also the point that since hardwires provide actual ship performance enhancement they can be purposed for PVP directly, whereas learning implants cannot.
The problem with attribute enhancers in particular is that just replacing them doesn't make up for time spent without them.
Every hour spent with a +3 is worth less SP wise than that same hour with a +4 or +5. And since the effect only becomes more apparent over time we begin to see that cost is only half of the issue, and that the variance in learning is what tends to make attribute enhancers have a greater affect on risk aversion than hardwires. |
Indalecia
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:27:00 -
[25] - Quote
Romar Agent wrote:At least with implants you can sooner or later minimize risk through Jump Clones.
/thread |
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
549
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
Implants don't bug me. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
124
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
Indalecia wrote:Romar Agent wrote:At least with implants you can sooner or later minimize risk through Jump Clones. /thread
Minimizing risk by negating the usefulness of those implants doesn't really address the issue as much as skirt around it. After all, if you're not going to use the training boost, why get it? And why should I have to choose between 24 hours at full training speed and a few hours of PvP? |
Nephilius
Knights of Athena
Star Council
392
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
I told you so.
You're welcome.
To call me a Carebear is a misnomer...while it is true that I am hairy like a bear (or two russian women), I really don't care.-á Like, at all.-á Call me an Apathybear.-á Just don't call if you need assistance. |
Di Mulle
48
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:10:00 -
[29] - Quote
I'd say removal of the cost of ships and modules will reduce that "fear of PVP" way way more.
<<Insert some waste of screen space here>> |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
612
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:11:00 -
[30] - Quote
well 8 years ok only 10% of the playerbase supported removing learning at all *I was one of them!* but then after a dev mentioned it oce at fanfest off hand in an interview, by the time it happen most people were in agreement that learning skills had to go. THANK GOD. Do you know how many times I was called a dumbass for wanting CCP to remove learning skills? Being told it was dumbing down the game and so on?
Whatever they said keep fighting for it. Implants giving you bonuses to learning skills a bit faster is kinda dumb, and only follows logic that they should be removed as well. Maybe have more extremes possibilities in the attributes again in return for removing the implants?
I mean, hell, why not. Let us go up to 30 and down to 15. Let players have to make a real choice that they can't change for a whole year. How fast do you want to train what. Maybe even give some of those bloodlines some bonuses to base attributes again. I do miss that.
OP, I think you're 100% justified and you've got my support. |
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