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Mizuki Yori	Posted - 2009.04.15 17:52:00 - [1] Greetings, First and foremost, when I started this app, I was not aware of Ceres. I wish I had because I would have otherwise tackled a different project for EVE. I've held off from looking over its source for logical reasons. To whomever is developing Ceres, I commend them on their effort and hope that possibly we may collaborate with each other in the future. I originally made a post about this in the EVE Technology Lab section but realized not many Mac users read that forum so I figured this would be a better place. I'm developing an EVEMon like application for Mac users complete with skill planning, financial tools and possibly ship fitting. Currently my program is in alpha while I focus on getting it to be stable enough for a beta release (possibly by the 19th of this month). As of this writing, there are several things lacking such as error handling and documentation. I'm developing this program under 10.4 build settings with the hopes of it working for 10.4 and 10.5 (doing "garbage collection" the hard way). However, the few times I've tested it under 10.4 I had issues with bindings so to be honest, I just don't know if it will work but you can try. In its current stage, the app is just a viewer. No other functionality other than monitoring the current skill in training. I'll hopefully be starting work on the skill planner next week. also, just an FYI, the program doesn't tell you this (yet) but when first launched it requires about 30 seconds of building the Core Data database for the first time. It would probably help if you downloaded the source and ran it from XCode as you can track the progress in the console. This is something I'll hopefully fix by tonight. For all the up to date info on my status, you can check out my development blog at emsdev.blogspot.com. You'll find the link to the source there. Hope to hear from all of you.
Aurora Morgan Stillwater Corporation	Posted - 2009.04.15 18:28:00 - [2] Originally by: Mizuki Yori First and foremost, when I started this app, I was not aware of Ceres. I wish I had because I would have otherwise tackled a different project for EVE. I've held off from looking over its source for logical reasons. To whomever is developing Ceres, I commend them on their effort and hope that possibly we may collaborate with each other in the future Don't worry about it, a multitude of choice is always nice. Keep working, and if you need any help. Don't hesitate to ask.
Ami Nia Caldari	Posted - 2009.04.15 18:46:00 - [3] Thanks for posting. And even more thanks for working on EvE SW tools for Macs. I'll read your blog when I have time (maybe even later this night if I manage to, but I'll be working very very long hours for a delivery scheduled tomorrow late morning). Collaboration between other Mac developers is of course good. But I do not think that totally merging competing applications is a good idea. I'd rather see both you and Aurora (by the way: did cocoarookie definitively give up?) keep working separately and then see some collaboration in the "infrastructure". For example once both of you have a somewhat stable data architecture, you should compare the lower layer and maybe both take a "pause" to merge that part into a common schema and tool, separating it out into a framework project. The framework level project will by necessity be different than what you both have developed earlier. But this is not necessarily a bad thing. While both will need to restructure some code, the framework itself will be much more "abstract" and "complete" for the very fact that it is a merge of different ideas. This will then make it much more robust and subsequent tools will be able to draw onto a common, solid, existing base infrastructure. I see this as a good thing. Do not do it the MS way. Compete/differentiate at the user level features, not at the lower layer. There's no need, for example, to have 20 different tool developers work on converting a new database dump from CCP to the different underlying schemes. All of them but one is actually wasting time and effort, IMO. Military experts call it a Templar, a fighter drone used by Amarr carriers. -- Sheriff Jones apochribba -- Aurora Morgan
Mizuki Yori	Posted - 2009.04.18 07:17:00 - [4] Beta is up, as promised. From my own personal testing it appears very stable. As before, head over to the dev blog and click on the SourceForge link. No need to download any source and compile.
tealkra pankhurst	Posted - 2009.04.18 16:17:00 - [5] Very nice! Thank you for your efforts and we look forward to seeing the app develop. Teal
CommanderData211	Posted - 2009.04.18 20:31:00 - [6] Got it. Love it. Couple things. The skill planner will not open up for me at all. Don't know if this is an issue because it's not complete or if it's a bug. Figured I'd let you know. Other than that, you should definitely expand it further and add ship fitting into it. It would be amazing to have an EVEmon and EFT all in one app for the mac.
Vlad Mezkan	Posted - 2009.04.19 05:17:00 - [7] Edited by: Vlad Mezkan on 19/04/2009 05:20:53 Originally by: CommanderData211 Got it. Love it. Couple things. The skill planner will not open up for me at all. Don't know if this is an issue because it's not complete or if it's a bug. Figured I'd let you know. Other than that, you should definitely expand it further and add ship fitting into it. It would be amazing to have an EVEmon and EFT all in one app for the mac. I probably should have removed the menu option for it as it's something that I haven't started work on. So no, it's not a bug. Just incomplete. Oh, and I should have posted this on my main, Mizuki Yori. Sorry if I confused anyone.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.19 12:02:00 - [8] In my (professional) opinion, I'd say just run with 10.5 builds, as your target audience will already be using the latest version of osx for the EVE client.
Dansel Gallente Creative Cookie Procuring Delinquent Habits	Posted - 2009.04.20 12:00:00 - [9] Edited by: Dansel on 20/04/2009 12:01:15 I've noticed when you launch the app and you get the loading characters screen, the process showed a 100% CPU use. Oterwise it looks great, and the skillque interface is really good too Keep it up! EDIT: I took a look at the icon file, but since i don't have illutrator, could you (or someone else) do me a favor and port it to photoshop. ----------------- Yay!!
Aurora Morgan Stillwater Corporation	Posted - 2009.04.20 14:56:00 - [10] Originally by: Dansel I took a look at the icon file, but since i don't have illutrator, could you (or someone else) do me a favor and port it to photoshop. Just change the extension to .pdf and you should be able to open it.
Vlad Mezkan	Posted - 2009.04.20 22:15:00 - [11] Edited by: Vlad Mezkan on 20/04/2009 22:15:12 Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab In my (professional) opinion, I'd say just run with 10.5 builds, as your target audience will already be using the latest version of osx for the EVE client. You're right, I should: http://emsdev.blogspot.com/2009/04/to-tiger-or-not-to-tiger.html
Ami Nia Caldari	Posted - 2009.04.21 00:04:00 - [12] Originally by: Vlad Mezkan You're right, I should: http://emsdev.blogspot.com/2009/04/to-tiger-or-not-to-tiger.html Shakespeare!!! You mention testing as the big motivator. I'd say: switch to GC mode, forget all the autoreleases, address ownership, reference counting and other stupid memory managment details. Within a week you'll cry if you even happen to THINK what writing Tiger code involves. Military experts call it a Templar, a fighter drone used by Amarr carriers. -- Sheriff Jones apochribba -- Aurora Morgan
Carinosa Peligrosa	Posted - 2009.04.26 21:04:00 - [13] Wow, this is a GREAT start!
Bogu D	Posted - 2009.05.05 09:07:00 - [14] I meant to post this sooner but you sir rock! Great start for this program. I hope you're still motivated enough to continue the development.
Mizuki Yori	Posted - 2009.05.11 17:20:00 - [15] For those who haven't kept up with my development blog from the start, I have some important information on the continuation of this project. It was originally started as a graduation requirement to be done over the course of about 10 weeks. Personally, I'm really happy with what I've accomplished in these past couple of months and I hope the EVE Mac fanbase can say the same. The final step in the completion of this project is a ~40 page report. Recently I submitted release 40 of my beta up on SourceForge. This release implements some amount of skill planning and adjusting the order of planned skills. It will be my last one for the next couple of weeks as this report will be consuming all of my time. This doesn't mean the development of the project will end there. When the report and the project finally gets submitted to my college, it is at that time I'm able to accept more participants. On the subject of participants, there are a few positions I'd like to have filled. This isn't anything official but here's what I'm currently thinking of: Designer- While this encompasses mostly user interface design and user experience stuff, I'm looking for a novice to experienced programmer. They don't necessarily have to know Cocoa/Objective-C (although it is preferred) but should at least be familiar with use cases and have designed UIs in the past. A few people have come forward willing to help out with this field with either no knowledge of the limitations programmers face nor a grasp of what the community wants rather what they would think is cool. This is a Mac app and I want it to retain the look and feel of one. Assistant Developer- Here's where I need an experienced Cocoa developer. People who insist on using Carbon need not apply. Familiarity with Core Data, Core Animation and working with Cocoa Bindings are all huge pluses. 2 of the 3 is pretty good, too. Come to think of it, I'd probably want two assistant developers. If you're seriously interested in contributing, you can get my contact info from my development blog. I'll send you more details about what kinds of things I'm looking for. I really would like to take this project all the way and make something that rivals EVEMon.
Maria Kalista Amarr Emerald Forest Securities	Posted - 2009.05.12 07:05:00 - [16] Whooooow!!! It just keeps on getting better & better with EVE these days. First Clear Skies 2 and now this, a bloody f-ing (pardon my French) working Mac OS X compatible skill planner! W00T! Great job! I'll send some iskies when I've payed for my next Plex. Originally by: Jacharian This sounds like a bad idea. I'm in.
Skyynxnex Minmatar The Sanitarium Choir	Posted - 2009.05.13 17:17:00 - [17] This looks awesome for your first beta. More people will get on board as this get more features I would love to see a ship fitter integrated into this. But in general great first effort ill be keeping this on hand. I dont know about anyone else but i think an isk donation is in order to keep this going.
Maria Kalista Amarr Emerald Forest Securities	Posted - 2009.05.17 09:09:00 - [18] I got a problem at the moment with EMS. It is stuck in 'updating characters' after I stopped training on a main and creating an alt on that same account and have that training now. Anyone any idea's how to get it rolling again? Originally by: Jacharian This sounds like a bad idea. I'm in.
Mizuki Yori	Posted - 2009.05.17 12:30:00 - [19] Originally by: Maria Kalista I got a problem at the moment with EMS. It is stuck in 'updating characters' after I stopped training on a main and creating an alt on that same account and have that training now. Anyone any idea's how to get it rolling again? From what I understand, the EVE API bugs out if you pause training on one character and start something on another on the same account. I personally don't know the nature of this bug and so unfortunately it's not something I've debugged and compensated for, yet.
Senyru Suru Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.05.17 17:09:00 - [20] can confirm that other apps have had this problem - i believe since the 1.1 update certainly, it was affect the Capsuleer app the solution i think is to make sure that the training queues are empty for any alts which are not currently training - not just paused, but that you've removed any pending items too. -- --- one day we're all gonna die, and then we'll see who's laughing!
Dansel Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.18 08:40:00 - [21] Found a bug, well 2 of them, but only one is a pure bug. If you start the application, open the skill planner, then close the main window, EMS crashes when you close the skillplanner. Also, If yuo close the main window, there is no way to bring it back up, other than quit -> start ----------------- Yay!!
Maar'sha	Posted - 2009.05.19 06:29:00 - [22] Nice work I'm a french EVE player and I've discover your job. Impressive !
Rottenator The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.06.17 07:07:00 - [23] Edited by: Rottenator on 17/06/2009 07:08:37 Edited by: Rottenator on 17/06/2009 07:07:56 This app does look very promising. I just read the OPs blog and understand motivation to push this app further is a bit low. That would be a shame as it looks really promising. Though at this point it doesn't do more than other apps available (either Ceres or the iPhone apps iClone and Capsuleer). If the skillplanner would be taken to a working state it really adds something to the Mac experience. So keep up the good work, but only if you enjoy doing it!
Vlad Mezkan	Posted - 2009.06.17 16:45:00 - [24] Edited by: Vlad Mezkan on 17/06/2009 16:46:17 Deleted (Annoyed that I keep posting with the wrong character...)
Mizuki Yori Caldari Dark-Void Carpe-Diem	Posted - 2009.06.17 16:47:00 - [25] Originally by: Rottenator Edited by: Rottenator on 17/06/2009 07:08:37 Edited by: Rottenator on 17/06/2009 07:07:56 This app does look very promising. I just read the OPs blog and understand motivation to push this app further is a bit low. That would be a shame as it looks really promising. Though at this point it doesn't do more than other apps available (either Ceres or the iPhone apps iClone and Capsuleer). If the skillplanner would be taken to a working state it really adds something to the Mac experience. So keep up the good work, but only if you enjoy doing it! You don't like the visual graphs? No other Mac program has something similar. That component was the one I worked hardest on and was most mentally challenging. The skill planner was what I was in the middle of working on before I abruptly stopped developing. I actually picked up a bit recently. As of this moment, I'm doing a somewhat large UI overhaul. I saw that new app that's being developed and decided I like how he arranged some of his stuff. I hope he won't mind me shamelessly ripping off some of his ideas. The skill planner is next to be completed. To be honest, there isn't much code to do to get it to work right (I hope). Even more so, though, is I'm going to try to take an even bigger advantage of Core Animation and expand on the visual graph. As of now there's far too much information in that one screen and I'm trying to think of clever ways to hide details. I do have somethings brewing in my mind.
Mizuki Yori Caldari Dark-Void Carpe-Diem	Posted - 2009.06.19 07:38:00 - [26] I got really into continuing development this week and spent hours on redesign. Although it's not as thoroughly tested as the previous version (I did find some bugs that nobody on average would run into) I'm pretty confident in its integrity. Also, everything loads much faster. Character updates are almost instantaneous. Next stop: finish the skill planner. Possibility: Redesign the Core Data model. It's great but lately I've been doing too many hacks/workarounds to keep it going. This one, too, will probably take a while to do. Aside from that, I changed up the Skill Planner window. You'll notice there isn't a description box anymore. I'm transitioning over to have the details of the skill, including its description, be shown when you mouse-over the skill in the browser and/or the box in the tree view. Possibly add in nifty core animation stuff to make the user experience better.
Kilabie	Posted - 2009.06.19 10:42:00 - [27] It crashed everytime I tried to start it after the new version (Just replaced the old one) I removed the macsuite files in ~/Library/preferences and in ~/Library/Cache/com.vadim.EVEMacSuite (think this was the paths) --------- This app looks really nice too, thanks. In another thread for another app, I added these features to the wish list: - Load battleclinic loadouts ( http://evemon.battleclinic.com:8000/trac/changeset/1382 ) - Upload skills to ineve.net - Let the application automatically look for new updates - What clone do I have
Mizuki Yori Caldari Dark-Void Carpe-Diem	Posted - 2009.06.19 13:32:00 - [28] Originally by: Kilabie - Load battleclinic loadouts ( http://evemon.battleclinic.com:8000/trac/changeset/1382 ) - Upload skills to ineve.net - Let the application automatically look for new updates - What clone do I have - An overview of all my characters, where I can see currently training and end time. 1. I went onto the battleclinic website and the loadouts there apparently aren't working. I can't really go much further if I can't see the data that's supposed to be exported. 2. Shouldn't be too hard. 3. I'm not really sure how i can do this. Currently, the source is held at SourceForge. I'm gonna need help to get something like this going. 4. Will look into it. 5. I'm not sure if this is necessary. I don't want to pack too many features and make the app look messy. Convince me better.
Rottenator The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.06.23 09:50:00 - [29] Originally by: Mizuki Yori You don't like the visual graphs? No other Mac program has something similar. That component was the one I worked hardest on and was most mentally challenging. Hmm ... I apparently failed to notice something. Could you be a bit more specific? So far I didn't see anything new-ish. That is either good because you app blends in on the whole Mac look'n feel, or I really failed to notice fancy things. Originally by: Mizuki Yori Originally by: Kilabie - Let the application automatically look for new updates 3. I'm not really sure how i can do this. Currently, the source is held at SourceForge. I'm gonna need help to get something like this going. Take a look at the 'sparkle' framework: http://sparkle.andymatuschak.org
Fei Valentyne Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2009.06.24 10:52:00 - [30] so firstly, it's great news to hear that you're continuing on with this project i thought you'd made some good progress earlier and it was a shame to see the app stalled in a not-quite-there state. really like what you've done with the latest build though - top work! i've just downloaded the latest build and i'm trying it out - shall post any thoughts i have below: error on startup, couldn't read the database file i think, unexpected format. so i trashed the ~\Library\Applications Support\Eve Mac Suite\ folder - i'd previously used build40 so i guess you have new fields in your data files. no biggie new character screen if EMS starts and there are no characters, the main window flashes up for a second, and then disappears. you could prompt the user to begin adding characters by bringing up the Add New Character window at that point, instead of leaving no windows showing when a user account has multiple characters, would it be possible to select more than one in the Add New Character screen and import them all in one go? I tried shift-clicking and cmd-clicking for multiple select but neither worked. (it's just that i have 3 accounts with 2 chars each - it's a bit repetative hitting cmd-N over and over). can the first character in the list be auto-selected? that way, if you have only one character, you can click Search and then Select straight away? (also, hitting the return key on that screen should trigger the select button) main window i really liked the old style, but i think this new landscape version looks even better. blends in with apps like Mail and Safari much better i managed to cause the app to crash, i was clicking on several of the items in the Current Skills list and it crashed trying to expand them - but i have not been able to replicate it. it might have been updating the characters as I had only just imported them all, so might just have been me trying to do too many things at once, hence why i can't repeat it the queue for this character isn't showing up correctly - it only has a timeline bar for the first skill, yet it's the last one in the list that is currently being trained skill planner window gotta say, i really really like the graph. although the bright primary colours are a little overwhelming, but i like the way they show you which skills are the next ones you're able to learn. but then, using lighter shades probably won't look any better. i'm trying to think of a more "OS X"-y way of doing the same thing... i guess you're aware that it kills the app when you close the skill planner window, yes? "You know the first rule of combat? Shoot them before they shoot you. "
Fei Valentyne Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2009.06.24 11:00:00 - [31] suggestions/requests instead of selecting the characters from a drop down list, it would be cool to either have their portraits in a row next to the Reload and Skill Planner buttons at the top of the window - although, i guess there's the potential that someone is running 15 characters or more.... or perhaps in a drawer that slides out on the left side of the window - then it is just a single click to switch between them - this would allow you to include the currently training and end times under their names that Kilabie requested it'd be nice if the skill planner graph scaled to fit in the window initially and then you could zoom into it. i imagine on a laptop screen it's not easy to see the whole graph. Also, you need something there for before anyone clicks on anything - it looks a bit strange with the big empty space. how about something like this: Need an item in the Window menu that will display the main screen if it has been closed or the use cmd-w'd by accident. At the moment the only option is to quit and start again it'd be cool to be able to import battleclinic items (if they are working). i'd like to browse around, find a ship i like the look of and loadout i'm interested in, and then import it into EMS to check what skills i'd need to learn and how long it'd take. or failing that, will there be an item list or something, so i can scroll through and find the ship/items, and EMS will calculate which skills are required? anyway, these are just my thoughts from using it. it's still a great app that you've made and look forward to seeing what you can make of it. -- --- "You know the first rule of combat? Shoot them before they shoot you. "
Rottenator The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.06.24 21:41:00 - [32] Ah ... it looks like I totally missed a very nice feature indeed. The graph indeed looks awesome. (the picture posted by Fei Valentyne helped me finding it) I never understood why there was such an empty space up there. Blame me for being stupid here (many will agree). Not sure if this is intended behaviour but when I added a skill to the skillplanner which had a prerequisite that I didn't train either it putted the prerequisite skill to 'lvl 0' on position '1' and then the rest normally. But I wonder why it puts the 'lvl 0' one in there.
Mizuki Yori Caldari Dark-Void Carpe-Diem	Posted - 2009.06.25 01:41:00 - [33] First off, thank you SOO much for this response. òerror on startup, couldn't read the database file i think, unexpected format. so i trashed the ~\Library\Applications Support\Eve Mac Suite\ folder - i'd previously used build40 so i guess you have new fields in your data files. no biggie It has to do with Core Data. More details at my dev log. Short version: I'm doing a huge overhaul at the underpinnings of the program. ònew character screen ◦if EMS starts and there are no characters, the main window flashes up for a second, and then disappears. you could prompt the user to begin adding characters by bringing up the Add New Character window at that point, instead of leaving no windows showing Disapears? Hmm.. I'm not getting that. It just shows up with blank information. But, you're right, I need the new character screen to show up. ◦when a user account has multiple characters, would it be possible to select more than one in the Add New Character screen and import them all in one go? I tried shift-clicking and cmd-clicking for multiple select but neither worked. (it's just that i have 3 accounts with 2 chars each - it's a bit repetative hitting cmd-N over and over). Alright, added to my to-do list. ◦can the first character in the list be auto-selected? that way, if you have only one character, you can click Search and then Select straight away? (also, hitting the return key on that screen should trigger the select button) Also added. Should be simple. òmain window ◦i really liked the old style, but i think this new landscape version looks even better. blends in with apps like Mail and Safari much better ◦i managed to cause the app to crash, i was clicking on several of the items in the Current Skills list and it crashed trying to expand them - but i have not been able to replicate it. it might have been updating the characters as I had only just imported them all, so might just have been me trying to do too many things at once, hence why i can't repeat it ◦the queue for this character isn't showing up correctly - it only has a timeline bar for the first skill, yet it's the last one in the list that is currently being trained http://www.illitrate.co.uk/gubbins/pictures/oddskillqueue.pngPlease visit your user settings to enable images. Well aware that the training queue is not functioning. I'm actually pretty annoyed that I can't make it work right. Hopefully chaning the underlying structure as mentioned earlier will make it easier to fix it. ò òskill planner window ◦gotta say, i really really like the graph. although the bright primary colours are a little overwhelming, but i like the way they show you which skills are the next ones you're able to learn. but then, using lighter shades probably won't look any better. i'm trying to think of a more "OS X"-y way of doing the same thing... ◦i guess you're aware that it kills the app when you close the skill planner window, yes? I know it crashes when you close the main window and then the skill planner's. However, closing just the skill planner shouldn't crash anything. I'll try to test this more throughly. suggestions/requests ◦instead of selecting the characters from a drop down list, it would be cool to either have their portraits in a row next to the Reload and Skill Planner buttons at the top of the window - although, i guess there's the potential that someone is running 15 characters or more.... or perhaps in a drawer that slides out on the left side of the window - then it is just a single click to switch between them - this would allow you to include the currently training and end times under their names that Kilabie requested What do you think of having a drawer on the left side? It pops out by toggling the button in the position where the current dropdown is. The list has a small icon for the portrait along with the name. Cont....
Mizuki Yori Caldari Dark-Void Carpe-Diem	Posted - 2009.06.25 01:43:00 - [34] ◦it'd be nice if the skill planner graph scaled to fit in the window initially and then you could zoom into it. i imagine on a laptop screen it's not easy to see the whole graph. Also, you need something there for before anyone clicks on anything - it looks a bit strange with the big empty space. how about something like this: http://www.illitrate.co.uk/gubbins/pictures/SkillPlanBlank2.pngPlease visit your user settings to enable images. The empty space thing is a good idea. However, scaling... Well, that's far too many mathimatical calculations. And what if someone is resizing? Do you want the resizing to scale? And what about the huge graphs such as Large Autocannon Specialization? If you scale that, nothing will be legible. Of course, it's possible to have a minimum zoom level. But still, the amount of work needed could potentially be daunting. It's something I'll have to decline for now. ◦Need an item in the Window menu that will display the main screen if it has been closed or the use cmd-w'd by accident. At the moment the only option is to quit and start again Or how about just quit the app? Ok, that's too un-Mac-like and just evil. ◦it'd be cool to be able to import battleclinic items (if they are working). i'd like to browse around, find a ship i like the look of and loadout i'm interested in, and then import it into EMS to check what skills i'd need to learn and how long it'd take. Well now, that'll require a database export. Nowhere near there. ◦or failing that, will there be an item list or something, so i can scroll through and find the ship/items, and EMS will calculate which skills are required? See above. In short, Thanks for all the suggestions and bugs. I've spent roughly 30 hours so far changing the foundation of the app and will likely spend another 20 or so more. Full explanation on my dev blog coming soon. The explanation will also give a good reason as to why the skill planner is so dysfunctional. It's what I'll be fixing immediately after I finish the foundation.
Mizuki Yori Caldari Dark-Void Carpe-Diem	Posted - 2009.07.10 17:26:00 - [35] I'm finishing up the final details on my massive code rewrite. Currently, I'm trying to get the skill planner done right. However, I stumbled on a lot of conceptual questions that I was hoping to get answers from you guys. First off, nothing personal to the developer of the recent new EVE API program but his skill planner looks like a massive Excel spreadsheet. The same goes to EVEMon, for the most part. I'm not saying those details aren't important but they certainly aren't all of the time. Details on the accumulated training time and finish date for individual skills within a plan should be made available on demand, in my opinion. This could be accomplished by clicking on the table row or mousing over it. This is just my personal thought and I'd like to know how the rest of the EVE community stands on it. Is there a more preferred way you'd like to see the data? This leads me to my second point. In terms of training time and finish date, one value stays the same while the other one always changes. This is dependent on if you're currently training a skill in the plan. If you are, the training time decreases but finish date stays the same. If you aren't, the training time stays the same and finish date increases. While it does take a bit of coding to ensure accuracy, the actual calculations aren't expensive either way. However, in both skill planners I've mentioned, training finish date doesn't refresh in real time in the latter case. Is that how you guys really want it or would you prefer real time updating of everything (which I've managed to do so far throughout my app)? One thing I learned about Apple's design philosophy when I was at their WWDC a few weeks ago was how they dealt with features. Unlike Windows developers, who have the mentality to pack in as many features as possible, Apple actually goes through each feature one by one and asks, "Do we really need this feature and why?" In the end you get an app much more heavily focused on user experience and has what the user actually wants/needs. That's what I'm trying to aim for. So, if anyone has any input on the matter, I'd love to hear it.
Senyru Suru Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.07.10 18:44:00 - [36] Originally by: Mizuki Yori Details on the accumulated training time and finish date for individual skills within a plan should be made available on demand, in my opinion. This could be accomplished by clicking on the table row or mousing over it. I think this is a brilliant idea. flash the values up on a tooltip or something? that would be great Originally by: Mizuki Yori Is that how you guys really want it or would you prefer real time updating of everything (which I've managed to do so far throughout my app)? if it can be done easily then i think you might as well have real-time for both scenarios. i imagine the only reason the others don't is that they haven't noticed the 2nd case. it's a good idea though, because if you refresh your char and the time isn't moving, then you assume something's gone wrong. Originally by: Mizuki Yori In the end you get an app much more heavily focused on user experience and has what the user actually wants/needs. That's what I'm trying to aim for. i think this is a key point and it's very good practice. not only will you end up with an app that feels more Apple-y but also, it won't be bogged down by unnecessary features. if lots of users start shouting for it, then you know you made the wrong choice and you can include it in the next release :) -- --- one day we're all gonna die, and then we'll see who's laughing!
Mizuki Yori Caldari Dark-Void Carpe-Diem	Posted - 2009.07.13 02:56:00 - [37] I'm still hoping to get any more thoughts/opinions/suggestions before I make any final commitments on the design of the skill planner. I'd really like to get something out there that people would enjoy using. For details, see my previous post.
Rottenator The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.07.13 10:09:00 - [38] Originally by: Mizuki Yori Details on the accumulated training time and finish date for individual skills within a plan should be made available on demand, in my opinion. Personally I don't like mouseovers most of the time, I'd like to see info directly without having to do anything but opening the screen. That is a personal preference and I think you should, if not a lot of people are against make your own choice as to what you like best. Originally by: Mizuki Yori However, in both skill planners I've mentioned, training finish date doesn't refresh in real time in the latter case. Is that how you guys really want it or would you prefer real time updating of everything (which I've managed to do so far throughout my app)? If it refreshes every time I switch to it that is enough for me. It might at some point even get annoying to see a whole column refreshing every second. Secondly because I work mostly on my laptop an app in the background should consume as less resources as possible. I'm not sure if it keeps updating even then, if so I'd rather not have it. If not, then it doesn't matter to much if the costs are non-significant. Originally by: Mizuki Yori "Do we really need this feature and why?" In the end you get an app much more heavily focused on user experience and has what the user actually wants/needs. That's what I'm trying to aim for. Sounds like a good, but sometimes difficult to hold to idea, especially if you are enthusiastic about the app and want it to do ... well ... everything.
Dansel Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.13 11:48:00 - [39] Edited by: Dansel on 13/07/2009 11:51:10 For the Skillplanner, heres an idea on the on demand feature. (Imagine with graphics) -------------------- NewPlan (In training(This will be shown if the skill that is currently training is the first one in the plan)) - Time Left: 31 days 2 hours 27 seconds - Skills to be trained: 7 - Finishing Date: Januari 17:th 17:50 (12:50 EVE Standard Time) -------------------- NewPlan2 - etc etc etc - etc etc etc - etc etc etc Show this in the skill plan list, should make it pretty on demand ----------------- Yay!!
Mizuki Yori Caldari Dark-Void Carpe-Diem	Posted - 2009.07.13 13:05:00 - [40] Originally by: Dansel Edited by: Dansel on 13/07/2009 11:51:10 For the Skillplanner, heres an idea on the on demand feature. (Imagine with graphics) -------------------- NewPlan (In training(This will be shown if the skill that is currently training is the first one in the plan)) - Time Left: 31 days 2 hours 27 seconds - Skills to be trained: 7 - Finishing Date: Januari 17:th 17:50 (12:50 EVE Standard Time) -------------------- NewPlan2 - etc etc etc - etc etc etc - etc etc etc Show this in the skill plan list, should make it pretty on demand It's not what I had in mind when I said I wanted data to be available "on demand" but that doesn't mean I don't like your idea. It would require me moving the skill plans list back to a drawer but I'm not against it. Thanks again for the idea.
Mizuki Yori Caldari Dark-Void Carpe-Diem	Posted - 2009.07.13 13:33:00 - [41] Quote: Personally I don't like mouseovers most of the time, I'd like to see info directly without having to do anything but opening the screen. That is a personal preference and I think you should, if not a lot of people are against make your own choice as to what you like best. I don't like the idea of mouse-over, either, actually. It was one of the only things I could think of when I made this post. I'm simply trying to alleviate the problem of a spreadsheet look. For example, having a column that lists accumulated training time sounds nice, but isn't really practical. Would there be a better way of you seeing in the info directly besides a spreadsheet look? Quote: If it refreshes every time I switch to it that is enough for me. It might at some point even get annoying to see a whole column refreshing every second. Secondly because I work mostly on my laptop an app in the background should consume as less resources as possible. I'm not sure if it keeps updating even then, if so I'd rather not have it. If not, then it doesn't matter to much if the costs are non-significant. The only column I could think of that would have its entire data refresh every second would be that of a training start/finish date for a plan that doesn't contain a skill you're not training. But I don't see the need for having both of those columns. If anything, the finish date is sufficient by itself. It's already assumed that first skill start date is now or already in progress. The start date for all other skills is the finish date of the previous skill. So a vote for no constant updates. Quote: Sounds like a good, but sometimes difficult to hold to idea, especially if you are enthusiastic about the app and want it to do ... well ... everything. The skills pie chart in EVEMon would be a a feature that I think is unimportant. It's just another way of displaying the same exact data and doesn't provide any help in decision making.
Dansel Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.13 15:29:00 - [42] Actually, please give us a feature to show all times in EST... And something to see the timechange in plan if you add other implants. ----------------- Yay!!
Mizuki Yori Caldari Dark-Void Carpe-Diem	Posted - 2009.07.15 07:29:00 - [43] A little progress update. When I said "Almost Done" on my dev blog, I fooled everyone, but mostly myself. It took far more time than I've estimated. I'm quite a bit closer to releasing something but I still need to debug and test it. I'll give an update on each of the requests that people have made. Quote: error on startup, couldn't read the database file i think, unexpected format... Fixed... sorta. At the moment, the app is still considered beta. There's quite a bit more updating to the core data model that will be done and almost each time it will render the old data useless. For now, I'm simply trashing the old store. In the next release it's not a problem as there's nothing besides data from an incomplete skill plan that a player can save. Quote: new character screen ...you could prompt the user to begin adding characters by bringing up the Add New Character window at that point... Done. Quote: when a user account has multiple characters, would it be possible to select more than one in the Add New Character screen and import them all in one go? ...can the first character in the list be auto-selected? that way, if you have only one character, you can click Search and then Select straight away? (also, hitting the return key on that screen should trigger the select button) Done, for the most part. The only think I couldn't figure out to work out NSResponder so that a return key causes it to trigger creating new characters. Quote: main window the queue for this character isn't showing up correctly - it only has a timeline bar for the first skill, yet it's the last one in the list that is currently being trained Possibly fixed. The order is fixed as well as the bars and sizes. The only thing I had a problem with was the blue boxes indicating the level you're training to. I've had it bug out on me once but was unable to duplicate it. Quote: skill planner window i guess you're aware that it kills the app when you close the skill planner window, yes? I'm sure it's caused annoyances to more than one person so it's now fixed. Under the 'Window' menu, you can select to open up the main window again. Quote: suggestions/requests ...or perhaps in a drawer that slides out on the left side of the window - then it is just a single click to switch between them - this would allow you to include the currently training and end times under their names that Kilabie requested Like this? To be honest, implementing this solution actually helped me quite a ton in not having to write code for handling character selection. Cocoa Bindings are just amazing. Quote: it looks a bit strange with the big empty space. Still on the backburner. Far too much work to worry about window/view and graph sizing at the moment. [quoteit'd be cool to be able to import battleclinic items (if they are working). i'd like to browse around, find a ship i like the look of and loadout i'm interested in, and then import it into EMS to check what skills i'd need to learn and how long it'd take. or failing that, will there be an item list or something, so i can scroll through and find the ship/items, and EMS will calculate which skills are required? Hopefully it's the next step as soon as I clean up any bugs and implement a couple of new things like a certificate browser.
Mizuki Yori Caldari Dark-Void Carpe-Diem	Posted - 2009.07.15 07:31:00 - [44] Quote: ...I'd like to see info directly without having to do anything but opening the screen. Simple solution is to admit you're right and implement what people are familiar with. How's this? Quote: If it refreshes every time I switch to it that is enough for me. It might at some point even get annoying to see a whole column refreshing every second. Being concerned about resources, I went with your suggestion. Maybe in the future I'll revisit this. Quote: Actually, please give us a feature to show all times in EST... I started making a preference window. The only two options in there at the moment are date format (mm/dd/yyyy vs dd/mm/yyyy) and local vs GMT (EVE server's) time. If you think there is something else I should include, let me know. Quote: And something to see the timechange in plan if you add other implants. This one is going to require some thought. Some design work, some implementation work.
Mizuki Yori Caldari Dark-Void Carpe-Diem	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:00:00 - [45] I'm just about fed up with Sourceforge. The most cumbersome system I've ever used, not to mention slower than cold molasses climbing uphill. Bear with me while I move everything over to Google Code. I'll update the links appropriately when I'm done.
Mizuki Yori Caldari Dark-Void Carpe-Diem	Posted - 2009.07.16 17:29:00 - [46] After 60+ hours of rewriting lots of code, I've decided to post a release on my progress. As per previous post, I gave up on SourceForge and decided to move to Google Code. Much easier to work with. Here's a decent list of changes, although it doesn't do it justice to the amount of work I did doing rewriting. I'm sure there's a few bugs in there that I haven't caught so I'd encourage everyone to report them. I'll try to get some kind of reporting tool setup in the mean time. Anyways, enjoy! Downloads List
Senyru Suru Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.07.16 18:59:00 - [47] Originally by: Mizuki Yori Like this? That, right there, sir, is a picture full of win :) I really like that you'd instantly get a quick overview of all your characters and their current training, so you don't have to select each one, just to check if any are going to end their queue while you're at work. -- --- one day we're all gonna die, and then we'll see who's laughing!
Keiko Shizuka	Posted - 2009.07.18 02:55:00 - [48] There's something wonky with the SP amount the app reports. It claims I have 13m or so, while I have actually have quite a bit more than that. For example, the summary for Navigation reports 256000 less than what I really have. If I expand the section it lists all my separate skills properly but the summary is still wrong. I tried removing and readding my character as well, same result.
Mizuki Yori Caldari Dark-Void Carpe-Diem	Posted - 2009.07.18 05:09:00 - [49] Originally by: Keiko **uka There's something wonky with the SP amount the app reports. It claims I have 13m or so, while I have actually have quite a bit more than that. For example, the summary for Navigation reports 256000 less than what I really have. If I expand the section it lists all my separate skills properly but the summary is still wrong. I tried removing and readding my character as well, same result. Can you send me the copy of your character sheet and skill queue xml file? They should be located in your ~/Library/Application Support/EVE Mac Suite/ directory. Send them to vlozko at gmail dot com. Thanks.
Keiko Shizuka	Posted - 2009.07.18 10:15:00 - [50] Originally by: Mizuki Yori Can you send me the copy of your character sheet and skill queue xml file? They should be located in your ~/Library/Application Support/EVE Mac Suite/ directory. Send them to vlozko at gmail dot com. Thanks. Done!
Maria Kalista Amarr Emerald Forest Securities	Posted - 2009.07.18 14:13:00 - [51] Your latest build (5) crashes here from time to time. I have it running in the background while I do other things like (work ) I got this from the console's crashreporter twice today: Process: EVE Mac Suite [18066] Path: /Applications/EVE Mac Suite.app/Contents/MacOS/EVE Mac Suite Identifier: com.vadim.EVEMacSuite 24 com.apple.HIToolbox 0x92fdc28c RunCurrentEventLoopInMode + 283 25 com.apple.HIToolbox 0x92fdc0a5 ReceiveNextEventCommon + 374 26 com.apple.HIToolbox 0x92fdbf19 BlockUntilNextEventMatchingListInMode + 106 27 com.apple.AppKit 0x906d9d0d _DPSNextEvent + 657 28 com.apple.AppKit 0x906d95c0 -[NSApplication nextEventMatchingMask:untilDate:inMode:dequeue:] + 128 31 com.vadim.EVEMacSuite 0x000025ea start + 54 0x1000 - 0x1dfff +com.vadim.EVEMacSuite Build 5 (.5) <5f0f17c5a91082f47be334354405bfa9> /Applications/EVE Mac Suite.app/Contents/MacOS/EVE Mac Suite 0x3d000 - 0x5cfff +com.brandonwalkin.BWToolkitFramework ??? (1.1) <d233e190496003e6dc8831a64fa06359> /Applications/EVE Mac Suite.app/Contents/Frameworks/BWToolkitFramework.framework/Versions/A/BWToolkitFramework 0x71000 - 0x84fff +org.andymatuschak.Sparkle 1.5 Beta 6 (313) <5df2b8a3560d45006b854215644de532> /Applications/EVE Mac Suite.app/Contents/Frameworks/Sparkle.framework/Versions/A/Sparkle Hope this helps. Originally by: Jacharian This sounds like a bad idea. I'm in.
Mizuki Yori Caldari Dark-Void Carpe-Diem	Posted - 2009.07.18 19:16:00 - [52] Originally by: Maria Kalista Your latest build (5) crashes here from time to time. I have it running in the background while I do other things like (work ) I got this from the console's crashreporter twice today: Process: EVE Mac Suite [18066] Path: /Applications/EVE Mac Suite.app/Contents/MacOS/EVE Mac Suite Identifier: com.vadim.EVEMacSuite 24 com.apple.HIToolbox 0x92fdc28c RunCurrentEventLoopInMode + 283 25 com.apple.HIToolbox 0x92fdc0a5 ReceiveNextEventCommon + 374 26 com.apple.HIToolbox 0x92fdbf19 BlockUntilNextEventMatchingListInMode + 106 27 com.apple.AppKit 0x906d9d0d _DPSNextEvent + 657 28 com.apple.AppKit 0x906d95c0 -[NSApplication nextEventMatchingMask:untilDate:inMode:dequeue:] + 128 31 com.vadim.EVEMacSuite 0x000025ea start + 54 0x1000 - 0x1dfff +com.vadim.EVEMacSuite Build 5 (.5) <5f0f17c5a91082f47be334354405bfa9> /Applications/EVE Mac Suite.app/Contents/MacOS/EVE Mac Suite 0x3d000 - 0x5cfff +com.brandonwalkin.BWToolkitFramework ??? (1.1) <d233e190496003e6dc8831a64fa06359> /Applications/EVE Mac Suite.app/Contents/Frameworks/BWToolkitFramework.framework/Versions/A/BWToolkitFramework 0x71000 - 0x84fff +org.andymatuschak.Sparkle 1.5 Beta 6 (313) <5df2b8a3560d45006b854215644de532> /Applications/EVE Mac Suite.app/Contents/Frameworks/Sparkle.framework/Versions/A/Sparkle Hope this helps. Not quite. If you can, could you send the entirety of the crash log to my email, or, if you have a google account, post it on my google code site as a new issue. Oh, and Keiko, I pinpointed the source of the problem. From the preliminary looks of it, it actually looks like a bug on Apple's end. My code is correct. I'm essentially trying to do a sum function on a set of objects. It's not adding them accurately. I changed it around to do the sum differently so you'll see that fix in the next release.
Maria Kalista Amarr Emerald Forest Securities	Posted - 2009.07.21 12:43:00 - [53] Just had a fresh crash and have send the crashlog to your blogs reply system. Hope that is ok, couldn't find any other email address. Originally by: Jacharian This sounds like a bad idea. I'm in.
Micovoy Lavoye Gallente Quebec's Underdog League Quebec Power	Posted - 2009.08.30 18:40:00 - [54] Mizuki have you given up development

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