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Time to fly the Jolly Roger at half mast

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FOl2TY8 Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.04.20 22:33:00 - [151] Originally by: Onus Mian Why is it such a difficult concept to grasp? Person A owns the product. Person B buy puchases only the right to use the product and not copy or distribute it. Person B then makes copies and distributes it despite the agreement. Person A gets rightfully **ed off and takes person B to court for breaking the orginal agreement. Person A wins the court case and sets a precedent for future cases. I can only assume that I have a stronger sense of right and wrong since so many seem to be unable to accept that this constitutes as stealing no matter how you try and dress it up. Relying on ambiguity in international law to back up your case is hardly a solid grounding since many countries simply haven't gotten around to dealing with the problems which the internet has thrown up regarding intellectual property and copyright laws. International laws to protect intellectual ownership are more important than ever when someone can purchase a music cd, rip it to their hardrive and then make it accessible to millions of people through websites like TPB in matter of minutes. I find it hard to understand how people can defend such actions as being something other than stealing and those that try and justify it on moral grounds are just grasping at straws. I suggest that you listen to 'Hooker with a ***' by Tool because that song sums it nicely. All you know about me is what I've sold you, dumb fck I sold out long before you ever heard my name Sold my soul to make a record, dip$hit then you bought one. It is perfect isn't it? ---------- This post brought to you by the worst PVP'er in Eve
masternerdguy Gallente Point of No Return Blade.	Posted - 2009.04.20 23:40:00 - [152] copyright infringement is a criminal offense in usa.
Dong Ninja	Posted - 2009.04.21 09:22:00 - [153] Originally by: masternerdguy copyright infringement is a criminal offense in usa. Finally someone answers a simple question without going on a crusade. Originally by: Xen Gin Indeed, upgrading an MS OS is like taking a **** into a cake mixture, then complaining that it doesn't taste good when it's all done.
masternerdguy Gallente Point of No Return Blade.	Posted - 2009.04.21 10:40:00 - [154] Originally by: Dong Ninja Originally by: masternerdguy copyright infringement is a criminal offense in usa. Finally someone answers a simple question without going on a crusade. no problem
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.04.21 14:19:00 - [155] Edited by: Blane Xero on 21/04/2009 14:19:20 Originally by: masternerdguy copyright infringement is a criminal offense in usa. Servers were hosting torrents, not copyrighted content. Servers were in Sweden, not the USA. ______________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Onus Mian Amarr Kingfisher Industries	Posted - 2009.04.21 15:20:00 - [156] Originally by: Blane Xero Edited by: Blane Xero on 21/04/2009 14:19:20 Originally by: masternerdguy copyright infringement is a criminal offense in usa. Servers were hosting torrents, not copyrighted content. Servers were in Sweden, not the USA. "I didn't steal it. I just help the thieves move the stuff" Yeah because that makes it ok. Also some counties have been slow in addressing this which doesn't mean its ok to run these websites just because in a particular country its not illegal yet.
masternerdguy Gallente Point of No Return Blade.	Posted - 2009.04.21 20:21:00 - [157] Originally by: Onus Mian Originally by: Blane Xero Edited by: Blane Xero on 21/04/2009 14:19:20 Originally by: masternerdguy copyright infringement is a criminal offense in usa. Servers were hosting torrents, not copyrighted content. Servers were in Sweden, not the USA. "I didn't steal it. I just help the thieves move the stuff" Yeah because that makes it ok. Also some counties have been slow in addressing this which doesn't mean its ok to run these websites just because in a particular country its not illegal yet. i think the world commerce peepz are gonna try to get a standardized copyrifght act enacted in most countries, so this may soon end. Secondly, saying hosting the torrents is ok is like using a 20 foot pole to poke a baby.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.04.21 20:26:00 - [158] Originally by: Onus Mian Originally by: Blane Xero Edited by: Blane Xero on 21/04/2009 14:19:20 Originally by: masternerdguy copyright infringement is a criminal offense in usa. Servers were hosting torrents, not copyrighted content. Servers were in Sweden, not the USA. "I didn't steal it. I just help the thieves move the stuff" Yeah because that makes it ok. Also some counties have been slow in addressing this which doesn't mean its ok to run these websites just because in a particular country its not illegal yet. That doesnt change the fact what i said is true, and is relevant to this case whereas what mastenerdguy said is also true, yet completely irrelevant.
masternerdguy Gallente Point of No Return Blade.	Posted - 2009.04.21 20:33:00 - [159] Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: Onus Mian Originally by: Blane Xero Edited by: Blane Xero on 21/04/2009 14:19:20 Originally by: masternerdguy copyright infringement is a criminal offense in usa. Servers were hosting torrents, not copyrighted content. Servers were in Sweden, not the USA. "I didn't steal it. I just help the thieves move the stuff" Yeah because that makes it ok. Also some counties have been slow in addressing this which doesn't mean its ok to run these websites just because in a particular country its not illegal yet. That doesnt change the fact what i said is true, and is relevant to this case whereas what mastenerdguy said is also true, yet completely irrelevant. ive done some resey research. its more relevant than you think.
Onus Mian Amarr Kingfisher Industries	Posted - 2009.04.21 20:43:00 - [160] Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: Onus Mian Originally by: Blane Xero Edited by: Blane Xero on 21/04/2009 14:19:20 Originally by: masternerdguy copyright infringement is a criminal offense in usa. Servers were hosting torrents, not copyrighted content. Servers were in Sweden, not the USA. "I didn't steal it. I just help the thieves move the stuff" Yeah because that makes it ok. Also some counties have been slow in addressing this which doesn't mean its ok to run these websites just because in a particular country its not illegal yet. That doesnt change the fact what i said is true, and is relevant to this case whereas what mastenerdguy said is also true, yet completely irrelevant. While I can see what you are saying their actions still aren't morally defendable. Yes I know there are a lot of things that are legal which aren't morally defendable either but they should be sorted out as well. ---- Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? - Douglas Adams

Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.04.21 21:05:00 - [161] Originally by: Onus Mian While I can see what you are saying their actions still aren't morally defendable. Yes I know there are a lot of things that are legal which aren't morally defendable either but they should be sorted out as well. Indeed. By the way, i wouldn't be opposing the ruling nearly as much if the prosecutors even had a real argument other than "But they dunnit guv'nah, innit. They be killin our biznez guv'nuh, innit" and constantly throwing evidence at the defendants that was either not cleared or completely irrelevant to the case. Referring to them as a business when they are just a team of people (organisation). And when their "Technology expert" or whatever couldnt turn on his computer? Yeah. They had no legs to stand on yet still won.
Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2009.04.21 21:35:00 - [162] Remember, juries are comprised of average citizens (meaning most of them are stupid) and the simple morality argument goes a long way with them. Pomp FTW!!!
Onus Mian Amarr Kingfisher Industries	Posted - 2009.04.21 21:41:00 - [163] Originally by: Intense Thinker Remember, juries are comprised of average citizens (meaning most of them are stupid) and the simple morality argument goes a long way with them. Juries are requried to make their decision based on the evidence that has been put forward. I know people who have done jury service and have had to give a not-guilty verdict to complete scumbag chavs because there was insufficient evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that they had commited the crime. If the jury could not be sure beyond reasonable doubt that TPB had broken the law then they wouldn't have been able to give a guilty verdict. ---- Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? - Douglas Adams
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.04.21 21:54:00 - [164] As previously stated in the thread this was a trial in the lowest level of swedish court and did not have a jury? Could be wrong though. ______________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Shar LaMayne	Posted - 2009.04.22 01:12:00 - [165] Quote: Again I ask, can any of you pirate bay proponents come up with an argument for downloading software illegally? Because I want to.
Onus Mian Amarr Kingfisher Industries	Posted - 2009.04.22 08:48:00 - [166] Originally by: Shar LaMayne Quote: Again I ask, can any of you pirate bay proponents come up with an argument for downloading software illegally? Because I want to. Well all actions have consequences. In the UK at least you can have your internet connection turned off for downloading stuff illegally. ---- Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? - Douglas Adams
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2009.04.22 12:17:00 - [167] This thread tells me I'm glad that the mob doesn't rule over verdict.
Doctor Penguin Amarr Celestial Ascension Tenth Legion	Posted - 2009.04.22 12:27:00 - [168] Edited by: Doctor Penguin on 22/04/2009 12:28:36 Originally by: Onus Mian Well all actions have consequences. In the UK at least you can have your internet connection turned off for downloading stuff illegally. No you can't - you'd need a court injunction anywhere in the EU to do that. And, once again, TPB cannot be blamed for crimes that were committed thanks to impartial facilities it supplies. The logic requires one to also agree that a man who has his house burgled is guilty of aiding the robber, and the council that builds a park is guilty of selling drugs if a drug dealer sells stuff there. ________________________________________________ http://eve.drome.nl/CaodCleaner/ Help make CAOD readable.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2009.04.22 13:16:00 - [169] Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 22/04/2009 13:16:46 Originally by: Doctor Penguin And, once again, TPB cannot be blamed for crimes that were committed thanks to impartial facilities it supplies. This is the main argument of those who think that the pirate bay were wrongly accused (and sentenced). Their so-called impartiality is however a house of cards at best. First of all, their very site name tells you (and everyone) what type of files they are niched to aid in supply of. Apologists would have us think different, that "pirate bay" is really as neutral as "google", but apologists never were right. Secondly, the "impartial" notion you claim is nothing but a convenient ruse to try and avoid responsibility for what goes on on their site. Together with the purpose of the site (come here for pirated software) that claim of impartiality is null and void. Quote: The logic requires one to also agree that a man who has his house burgled is guilty of aiding the robber, and the council that builds a park is guilty of selling drugs if a drug dealer sells stuff there. This failed analogy, while providing with some comedy value (especially since you used the word 'logic') is a complete shambles. A man who has his house burgled? Who is this supposed to be? Are you trying to say that the pirate bay are victims of burglary somehow? What were you smoking when you made that comparison? A park wherein crimes are perpetuated requires the state to take responsibility of said crimes. For public safety, and to preserve law and order. In that sense your second analogy is actually worse than your first. Secondly, a park is not created for the specific purpose to do illegal activities. But you can bet your hinds that if there was a sign saying "CRYSTAL METH BAY", there would be hell to pay (especially if the council was involved, lol).
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.04.22 13:21:00 - [170] Originally by: Doctor Penguin Edited by: Doctor Penguin on 22/04/2009 12:28:36 Originally by: Onus Mian Well all actions have consequences. In the UK at least you can have your internet connection turned off for downloading stuff illegally. No you can't - you'd need a court injunction anywhere in the EU to do that. And, once again, TPB cannot be blamed for crimes that were committed thanks to impartial facilities it supplies. The logic requires one to also agree that a man who has his house burgled is guilty of aiding the robber, and the council that builds a park is guilty of selling drugs if a drug dealer sells stuff there. ...or like a car rental service is responsible for facilitating drive by shooting, hit and run, drunk driving, homicide by car and whatever bad you can do with the car one has rented out. And the things you can do with a car are much worse than a copyright infringement. Yet there has no car rental service been charged. -------- Ideas for: Mining

MyOwnSling Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.04.22 13:35:00 - [171] Edited by: MyOwnSling on 22/04/2009 13:41:19 Edited by: MyOwnSling on 22/04/2009 13:36:10 Originally by: Doctor Penguin Edited by: Doctor Penguin on 22/04/2009 12:28:36 Originally by: Onus Mian Well all actions have consequences. In the UK at least you can have your internet connection turned off for downloading stuff illegally. The logic requires one to also agree that a man who has his house burgled is guilty of aiding the robber This is a bad analogy. A person legally OWNS everything in their house (including the rights to any digital media they have bought). The TPB people did not own everything they distributed. A person does not collect items in their home for someone to take. TPB posted torrents specifically for other people to use. Again, not a good analogy. Quote: the council that builds a park is guilty of selling drugs if a drug dealer sells stuff there. Another poor analogy. A park is a public place and, as such, falls under the local/state law and law enforcement. Illegal activity is not allowed there, so someone performing such an activity is subject to punishment under the law. The park was not built for the purpose of illegal activites whereas the TPB helped to facilitate and had no measures to prevent illegal activites. ------------- Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face...
MyOwnSling Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.04.22 13:44:00 - [172] Originally by: Abrazzar Originally by: Doctor Penguin Edited by: Doctor Penguin on 22/04/2009 12:28:36 Originally by: Onus Mian Well all actions have consequences. In the UK at least you can have your internet connection turned off for downloading stuff illegally. No you can't - you'd need a court injunction anywhere in the EU to do that. And, once again, TPB cannot be blamed for crimes that were committed thanks to impartial facilities it supplies. The logic requires one to also agree that a man who has his house burgled is guilty of aiding the robber, and the council that builds a park is guilty of selling drugs if a drug dealer sells stuff there. ...or like a car rental service is responsible for facilitating drive by shooting, hit and run, drunk driving, homicide by car and whatever bad you can do with the car one has rented out. And the things you can do with a car are much worse than a copyright infringement. Yet there has no car rental service been charged. Except that after the customer drives away with the car, the rental service has no way of controlling what the customer does with the car. The TPB guys had control over what went on at their website. If something illegal was going on, they had the theoretical capacity to stop it (whether or not they had the manpower is another story). ------------- Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face...
Tob Seayours Minmatar Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2009.04.22 13:45:00 - [173] Originally by: Abrazzar ...or like a car rental service is responsible for facilitating drive by shooting, hit and run, drunk driving, homicide by car and whatever bad you can do with the car one has rented out. And the things you can do with a car are much worse than a copyright infringement. Yet there has no car rental service been charged. Is this ****ty analogy week or something? You're comparing cars and software. And rental service with illegal software distribution. The act of renting out cars isn't a crime, because the company that rents out the cars own them, and have the legal right to distribute them. Furthermore they are not marketing the distribution of said cars via "DRIVE BY CARS BAY", or "HIT & RUN BAY". Or you would definitely see them convicted of any such felony. If they then would claim some kind of "impartiality" in crimes convicted with said cars, they would be a laughing stock.
Ratchman	Posted - 2009.04.22 13:50:00 - [174] Some people seem to be vehemently supporting Pirate Bay regardless of what argument is offered. The fact of the matter that everyone knows it is illegal. They may not be hosting the files, but they are facilitating illegal copyright infringement. This cannot be debated in any way, except for minor legal technicalities depending on what country you live in. The website is called "The Pirate Bay", and offers you access, albeit indirectly, to pirated material. How is that not a blatant illegal act? I think the real reason people are defending them so rabidly, is because they use the site, or similar ones, to download pirated software themselves. Don't try and justify your own illegal activities, because you are still breaking the law, no matter what the provocation. You may discuss the relative merits of such illegal action, but it is still illegal. Myself, I'm not going to judge, but I can wait until Wolverine comes out at the cinema before I watch it. I just love the cinema experience, so I will keep going. You may justify your actions by saying it's a rip-off, but you can make a protest by simply not going or buying the product. By downloading pirated versions, you are stating that you must have it, by fair means or foul. Someone offered the analogy of a gun shop selling the weapon used in a murder case. That shop could not be held responsible. However, this is more like someone supplying someone else with a weapon, then convincing them that another person was sleeping with his wife. It's all about intent, not providing a service. Had the Pirate Bay been called something else, and been more conniving and evasive, then the legal case would have been so much harder to prove. But they chose to be blatant and confrontational, so a criminal sentence was to be expected. That said, the big media companies really need to learn to adapt to the emerging technology. Steps have been made with things like iTunes, but it is just the first few steps (and they really need to lower their prices). Some bad decisions have also been made (such as the SecureROM debacle). I like the fact that CDs are now much cheaper than they used to be, usually about half the price of ten years ago. DVDs are the same. Now I can pick up all manner of films for a couple of quid (of course, I rarely buy new releases). Blu Ray will go the same way in a couple of years. Piracy will always exist, for as long as things are for sale, then their will be those who will steal them. I've always found that the more unreasonable the price is, the more likely that product will be stolen. I can remember the frenzy over audio tapes killing the music industry, but here we are, 30 years later, but the song remains the same. It won't kill the industry, just reduce their profits by a percentage. Stealing is a fact of life, and these companies need to learn that. That doesn't mean they should sit back and accept it, but they don't need to be quite so fervent about it, because that will only serve to alienate them from their customers, as SecureROM did. Mother Clanger made some very valid points in some of her later posts, but the truth of the matter is, it is still illegal. Tinfoil hattery aside, I don't think the judgement would have been different anywhere else, and without bribery or other form of corruption. But the big companies do need to learn to adapt and survive.
Ratchman	Posted - 2009.04.22 14:08:00 - [175] Originally by: Abrazzar Originally by: Doctor Penguin And, once again, TPB cannot be blamed for crimes that were committed thanks to impartial facilities it supplies. The logic requires one to also agree that a man who has his house burgled is guilty of aiding the robber, and the council that builds a park is guilty of selling drugs if a drug dealer sells stuff there. ...or like a car rental service is responsible for facilitating drive by shooting, hit and run, drunk driving, homicide by car and whatever bad you can do with the car one has rented out. And the things you can do with a car are much worse than a copyright infringement. Yet there has no car rental service been charged. One word: intent. Pirate Bay's focus is obvious. Let's look at these analogies: 1) The man leaving his house is complicit of aiding the burglar. Only if he has conspired with the burglar beforehand. The homeowner does not take part in the act himself, but he has arranged for someone else to do the act. 2) People who build parks are facilitating drug dealing. Only if they put up signs saying "drug dealers welcome". 3) Car rental services facilitate drive-by shootings and drunk driving. Only if they advertise their cars as "to be used in drive-by shootings" or "owner must be mullered before starting up car". Why is it so difficult to understand the argument that Pirate Bay are complicit because not only do they give you the tools to find pirated software, they bloody site is called 'Pirate Bay' giving you clear indication of their intentions. Other file sharing groups have been taking to court and have escaped serious punishment, because the issue of intent was difficult to prove. Pirate Bay is a big sign that tells you what kind of file sharing can be done through them. Simple word association. If they had been named some other dumb name like Napster or Kazaa, they could have avoided a jail sentence.
Corwain	Posted - 2009.04.22 14:27:00 - [176] I'd think it would be hard for the court to prove exactly what kind of pirates are being referred to in the site's name. After all I've pirated music before and I've never been on a pirate ship as is depicted in the logo. Also, pirates are cool. -- Distortion\| Distortion 2 Preview
Tob Seayours Minmatar Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2009.04.22 14:32:00 - [177] Originally by: Corwain I'd think it would be hard for the court to prove exactly what kind of pirates are being referred to in the site's name. After all I've pirated music before and I've never been on a pirate ship as is depicted in the logo. Also, pirates are cool. Funny man.
masternerdguy Gallente Point of No Return Blade.	Posted - 2009.04.22 18:15:00 - [178] Originally by: Corwain I'd think it would be hard for the court to prove exactly what kind of pirates are being referred to in the site's name. After all I've pirated music before and I've never been on a pirate ship as is depicted in the logo. Also, pirates are cool. you are truly out of arguments huh
Corwain	Posted - 2009.04.22 18:25:00 - [179] I was never involved in the debate to begin with. I think both sides are equally tools.
Tob Seayours Minmatar Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2009.04.22 19:00:00 - [180] Originally by: Corwain I was never involved in the debate to begin with. I think both sides are equally tools. Especially the side which doesn't take any side. Tool.



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