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2ofSpades
Exploration and Intelligence Agency
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
(Spellchecked for smart people!)
I tested out the new adaptive hardeners and the idea is cool but the system is not completely adaptive. First, I noticed that once you have turned the hardener on it adapts to lets say a drake kinetic damage. Ok cool, but then after this it stops being adaptive. If IM not getting shot at I think it should automatically return to its default resistance but instead it just stays at the setting. This is not a big issue because all you have to do is turn off the hardener, but people could use flaw to preset their resistance before a fight. The other part I noticed was the hardener didnt seem to re-adapt. I was getting shot by a drake and my resistance was all kin and a proteus warped in started shooting me. The drake had stopped shooting me but my resistance didnt re-adapt to therm/kin for the proteus. This flaw actually worked out to my advantage because I had a thermal hardener fitted. After I reset the hardener it did adapt to the proteus giving me 50/50 therm/kin. Once again not very adaptive but still a cool idea, you should nerf the drake with a 15% morphing shield resistance bonus instead of its 25% across the board. As far as the time to adapt goes at first I thought it was slow at first but after messing with it a little it seemed to adapt quick enough to handle any solo situation or pve. In a nutshell, more adaptive please and add re-adapting without reset. I dont really care about the return to default part but the re-adapting I think is important. I hope to see t2 mod with maybe 20/20/20/20 but I would let it adapt to anything past a normal racial t2 hardener so you get something like 10/60/5/5. Wouldnt mind complex versions either. Feel free to add on or troll if you want! |
Sirinda
Lead Farmers Academy Kill It With Fire
88
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 13:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
I would ask that you add some formatting to your post.
The wall of text has toppled onto my brain. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
42
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 14:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
These were not not seeded last time I was on but it certainly sounds an interesting mod. I am actually glad it keeps it's last resistance profile when not taking damage last thing I would want would be for it to reset in between pockets/ spawns or if I evade taking damage for a time, if it resets when switched of that sounds fine.-á |
2ofSpades
Exploration and Intelligence Agency
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 16:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sirinda wrote:I would ask that you add some formatting to your post.
The wall of text has toppled onto my brain.
Sorry about your brain. :)
Also I wasnt asking that it just flips back to 15/15/15/15 right away when your not gettting shot but that it adapts back to omni defence just like it adapts to whatever. Mainly I didnt like how it didnt re-adapt when i was getting shot by a new type of damage after it had adapted once. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
704
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 19:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
Q is: does it adapt the the theoretical damage which is hitting you or the effective damage after all resistences are applied?. This could explain 2)
edit: example: if you are hit with 90% exp and 10%kin it could still ignore exp if your kin resistance is significantly lower than exp a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
2ofSpades
Exploration and Intelligence Agency
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 19:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
Im not sure...The way it seemed was that it would only change after there was incoming damage. If someone just shot you one time it didnt change much. |
Pink Marshmellow
Caucasian Culture Club Narwhals Ate My Duck
26
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 22:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
I have a few question, since SiSi is not working for me.
What is the highest value a single resist reach after being hit by one damage type? Let say you get shot from a drake with kin missiles, what is the highest value kin will reach before it stops?
Any idea of this module has stacking penalty or is it like a damage control with no stacking penalty.
Is it possible to fit Both a Damage Control and Adaptive Hardeners?(both have an indication that you can only fit one per ship). |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
715
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 20:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
It doesn't adapt to anything, it's just omni. The blog made it sound like something new and different that would "adjust" ... caught me off guard at first too. No magic here to be missed, because it never existed in the first place. |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
341
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 21:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:It doesn't adapt to anything, it's just omni. The blog made it sound like something new and different that would "adjust" ... caught me off guard at first too. No magic here to be missed, because it never existed in the first place.
it starts omni. as you get damaged it adjusts. How else would it adapt without a level base to start from. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
715
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 21:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:It doesn't adapt to anything, it's just omni. The blog made it sound like something new and different that would "adjust" ... caught me off guard at first too. No magic here to be missed, because it never existed in the first place. it starts omni. as you get damaged it adjusts. How else would it adapt without a level base to start from.
Because it doesn't adapt at all. Just like the existing items that are named "Adaptive ThingX". Do a quick market search on the world "adaptive" |
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Perihelion Olenard
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
22
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Posted - 2012.05.07 21:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
What would be the point of this module if it doesn't adapt at all? To waste cap and CPU? It would do exactly the same thing as the adaptive nano plating II which needs only a low slot and 1 PG. |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
341
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 22:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote: Because it doesn't adapt at all. Just like the existing items that are named "Adaptive ThingX". Do a quick market search on the world "adaptive"
Then you're doing it wrong. So a Serpentis slaps my armor around for a bit, as the armor cycles my em and expl drops while my thermal and kin goes up. The module now has 0% em and expl and 30% kin and thermal. |
Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
119
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 22:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:It doesn't adapt to anything, it's just omni. The blog made it sound like something new and different that would "adjust" ... caught me off guard at first too. No magic here to be missed, because it never existed in the first place. it starts omni. as you get damaged it adjusts. How else would it adapt without a level base to start from. Because it doesn't adapt at all. Just like the existing items that are named "Adaptive ThingX". Do a quick market search on the world "adaptive" Yes it does, try actually testing modules before spewing crap on the forums ^^ There should be a rather awesome pic here |
2ofSpades
Exploration and Intelligence Agency
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 01:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Pink Marshmellow wrote:I have a few question, since SiSi is not working for me.
What is the highest value a single resist reach after being hit by one damage type? Let say you get shot from a drake with kin missiles, what is the highest value kin will reach before it stops?
Any idea of this module has stacking penalty or is it like a damage control with no stacking penalty.
Is it possible to fit Both a Damage Control and Adaptive Hardeners?(both have an indication that you can only fit one per ship).
1. Not sure but I think ive seen at least 40%
2. Yes it has the normal resistance stacking penalty (I.E. You have 40% em resistance you turn on a 50% hardener (((100 - 40 = 60 x .01 = .60== .60 x 50 = 30% applied resistance))))) DC's also stack like this.
3. Yes you can fit one of each and use both at the same time. |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
164
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 02:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
My testing went as followed, 1% per cycle change. starting at it's 15%
It will change if the damage changes to a weakness without reset it seemed to me, if you are taking a different damage type.
The big flaw is time, it takes a fair while to become useful and only marginally moreso than an EANM II 90 seconds just so it can have two resists equal, not worth it in my opinion for anything outside of pve. |
TheButcherPete
Specter Syndicate CORE Alliance
162
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 02:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
2ofSpades wrote:Pink Marshmellow wrote:I have a few question, since SiSi is not working for me.
What is the highest value a single resist reach after being hit by one damage type? Let say you get shot from a drake with kin missiles, what is the highest value kin will reach before it stops?
Any idea of this module has stacking penalty or is it like a damage control with no stacking penalty.
Is it possible to fit Both a Damage Control and Adaptive Hardeners?(both have an indication that you can only fit one per ship). 1. Not sure but I think ive seen at least 40% 2. Yes it has the normal resistance stacking penalty (I.E. You have 40% em resistance you turn on a 50% hardener (((100 - 40 = 60 x .01 = .60== .60 x 50 = 30% applied resistance))))) DC's also stack like this. 3. Yes you can fit one of each and use both at the same time.
Damage Controls do not stack. Source: Stacking Penalties My moncole doubles as a cigarette lighter, a flashlight, a laser and x-ray goggles. If you haven't noticed yet, I'm in love with Punkturis. -á-á-á
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Jerick Ludhowe
Wraiths of Abaddon
68
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 14:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
2ofSpades wrote:
1. Not sure but I think ive seen at least 40%
2. Yes it has the normal resistance stacking penalty (I.E. You have 40% em resistance you turn on a 50% hardener (((100 - 40 = 60 x .01 = .60== .60 x 50 = 30% applied resistance))))) DC's also stack like this.
3. Yes you can fit one of each and use both at the same time.
That's not stacking penalty you posted. |
Sirinda
Lead Farmers Academy Kill It With Fire
91
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 19:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:2ofSpades wrote:
1. Not sure but I think ive seen at least 40%
2. Yes it has the normal resistance stacking penalty (I.E. You have 40% em resistance you turn on a 50% hardener (((100 - 40 = 60 x .01 = .60== .60 x 50 = 30% applied resistance))))) DC's also stack like this.
3. Yes you can fit one of each and use both at the same time.
That's not stacking penalty you posted.
This.
Also, you're confusing diminishing returns with stacking penalty.
I'm not sure about the way the stacking penalty is calculated, but this is the formula for these diminishing returns:
Say you have two 50% resist mods and 0% base resists, to make this easy to calculate.
The first resist gives you the full 50% resistance, leaving 50% of the incoming damage leaking through.
The second mod can only mitigate the damage that's still 'there', so to speak, and reduces it by a further 50%.
In numbers, you'd be at 75% resistance in theory. The stacking penalty causes you to be at around 70% in practice, I believe. it gets worse with every resistance mod you add, except for damage controls. These are only affected by diminishing returns. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
717
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 19:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
Copine Callmeknau wrote:Yes it does, try actually testing modules before spewing crap on the forums ^^
FUAH |
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CCP Tuxford
C C P C C P Alliance
321
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 23:08:00 -
[20] - Quote
2ofSpades wrote: (2) The other part I noticed was the hardener didnt seem to re-adapt. I was getting shot by a drake and my resistance was all kin and a proteus warped in started shooting me. The drake had stopped shooting me but my resistance didnt re-adapt to therm/kin for the proteus. This flaw actually worked out to my advantage because I had a thermal hardener fitted so I was able to avoid a stacking penalty. After I reset the hardener it did adapt to the proteus giving me 50/50 therm/kin. Once again not very adaptive but still a cool idea, you should nerf the drake with a 15% morphing shield resistance bonus instead of its 25% across the board.
The version we have is pretty simple. It just takes one point of the two lowest resists and adds them to the two highest resists. When it has no more points to take it just does nothing. The issue you have now is that your hardener has adapted to only kinetic damage which means all the other resistances are now at zero. This means as long as your kinetic damage is is one of the two highest damage types you take then it well never shift to take your second highest one into account. This seems slightly broken to me so I'll bring it to the attention of my team.
https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/CCP%20Tuxford/StatusUpdates |
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Camios
Minmatar Bread Corporation
101
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 00:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote: The version we have is pretty simple. It just takes one point of the two lowest resists and adds them to the two highest resists. When it has no more points to take it just does nothing. The issue you have now is that your hardener has adapted to only kinetic damage which means all the other resistances are now at zero. This means as long as your kinetic damage is is one of the two highest damage types you take then it well never shift to take your second highest one into account. This seems slightly broken to me so I'll bring it to the attention of my team.
If you make a bit of calculations you can show that the best resistance profile against a given damage distribution profile is the one that has 60% resist on the highest incoming damage type. This assuming a flat resistance background and a constraint on the sum of the resistances.
You can pretty much demonstrate this using Lagrange multipiers.
For this reason, I think that the best algorithm would be to take 1% resistance away from the 3 lowest damage types and add 3% resistance to the highest damage type (or 2%-1%-0% if 1-2-3 of the lowest resistance are already zero, respectively). This change will entail a faster "convergence" and thus may require lenghtening the cycle time (but I don't think it's necessary). Moreover, the module will not remain "stuck".
(my 2 cents) |
Shish Tukay
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 00:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Copine Callmeknau wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Because it doesn't adapt at all. Just like the existing items that are named "Adaptive ThingX". Do a quick market search on the world "adaptive" Yes it does, try actually testing modules before spewing crap on the forums ^^
I've sat here for half an hour taking damage on my adaptive invulnerability field, and it's still 25/25/25/25
I'm guessing you only meant to reply to one specific sentence when quoting the entire thread? |
Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
127
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 00:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Shish Tukay wrote:Copine Callmeknau wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Because it doesn't adapt at all. Just like the existing items that are named "Adaptive ThingX". Do a quick market search on the world "adaptive" Yes it does, try actually testing modules before spewing crap on the forums ^^ I've sat here for half an hour taking damage on my adaptive invulnerability field, and it's still 25/25/25/25 I'm guessing you only meant to reply to one specific sentence when quoting the entire thread? Jesus.
The adaptive armour hardener adapts, that and ONLY that module is a resistance-shifting hardener that adapts to incoming damage. It also works fine, contrary to what certain idiots on the first page have stated
Why you're complaining that invulns and EANM aren't shifting their resistance is beyond me There should be a rather awesome pic here |
Shish Tukay
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 00:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
Copine Callmeknau wrote:Why you're complaining that invulns and EANM aren't shifting their resistance is beyond me I'm not complaining about the modules, I'm complaining about you - your fail-quoting implied that the guy was totally wrong, when in fact he was only 1/3 wrong
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2ofSpades
Exploration and Intelligence Agency
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 03:37:00 -
[25] - Quote
Good to see a ccp reply on here! Thanks and nice job with the vengeance paint, the silver looks good. |
Morgan North
The Wild Bunch Electus Matari
75
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 06:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
I've experimentedwith the module, but insofar I've not considered it too usefull. Seems like a good old EANM is better in all situations. |
Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
131
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 08:09:00 -
[27] - Quote
Shish Tukay wrote:Copine Callmeknau wrote:Why you're complaining that invulns and EANM aren't shifting their resistance is beyond me I'm not complaining about the modules, I'm complaining about you - your fail-quoting implied that the guy was totally wrong, when in fact he was only 1/3 wrong He is totally wrong though, and I quoted his whole post :p He only made two statements
Adunh Slavy wrote:Because it doesn't adapt at all. Wrong, it does adapt, slowly.
Adunh Slavy wrote:Just like the existing items that are named "Adaptive ThingX" Wrong, it does not function like the current 'Adaptive [thing]' modules
Why is this even a thing anyway? Can't we go back to discussing how this module is basically useless except on the tightest rep fits? There should be a rather awesome pic here |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 08:13:00 -
[28] - Quote
I would like to know if there is a plan to iterate on this module in the future and add higher meta variants?
Right now it is marginally better than T1 EANM. As EANM uses no cap, and uses benefits of compensation skills. Adaptive module is active and does not take any bonus from compensation skills.
Don't take me wrong. I think the module is well balanced. But it is still meta 0 module and balanced to other meta 0 modules. But we have named, T2, faction and deadspace versions of EANMS which overshadow this T1 adaptive hardener. |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 08:21:00 -
[29] - Quote
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
Why is this even a thing anyway? Can't we go back to discussing how this module is basically useless except on the tightest rep fits?
The module is quite useful. Meta 0 EANM gives +15% to all resists, +20% with all compensation skills at max.
Adaptive hardener gives +15% to all resists before adaptation. Will shift to +30% against NPCs (as all of them uses at least 2 damage types) and +60% if being shot by single damage type (missiles).
If we get T2 variant with +20% base resists it would compare to T2 EANM quite nicely.
T2 EANM with all skills: +25% to all resists. T2 adaptive hardener base: 20% to all resists. T2 adaptive hardener against 2 damage type NPC: +40% T2 adaptive resist against single damage type: 80% now this is probably overpowered. |
Perihelion Olenard
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
22
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Posted - 2012.05.09 11:25:00 -
[30] - Quote
Since it takes so long to adapt I wouldn't use it. In that time it takes to adapt you're taking more damage waiting for it to pass the effectiveness of a tech 2 EANM while spending a lot of capacitor. Moreso if some other damage type hits you after you adapt. In addition, the EANM is boosted by armor compensation skills and uses no cap at all. |
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CCP SoniClover
C C P C C P Alliance
65
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Posted - 2012.05.09 14:35:00 -
[31] - Quote
Regarding the higher meta level versions, yes this will most likely happen once we get the T1 version exactly right. Might not happen in time for Inferno though.
Regarding the cycle time, this is something we're monitoring. Adjusting the time (either directly or through the use of skill) is still very much an option. |
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Cathrine Kenchov
Ice Cold Ellites
4
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Posted - 2012.05.09 14:58:00 -
[32] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Regarding the higher meta level versions, yes this will most likely happen once we get the T1 version exactly right. Might not happen in time for Inferno though.
Regarding the cycle time, this is something we're monitoring. Adjusting the time (either directly or through the use of skill) is still very much an option.
Through use of a skill would be much preferred I think. Any and all bonuses to training skills higher, especially to 5, is always a nice move imho.
Also a faction mod that has reduced duration would be a good addition as well. |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
29
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Posted - 2012.05.09 18:08:00 -
[33] - Quote
Cathrine Kenchov wrote:Also a faction mod that has reduced duration would be a good addition as well. Agreed, especially if the faction is one of the niche armor factions like Khanid or Ammatar. Assuming the module is desirable, it would encourage the mission runners to move to less popular (from an LP point-of-view) areas.
MDD |
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
149
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:27:00 -
[34] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:Cathrine Kenchov wrote:Also a faction mod that has reduced duration would be a good addition as well. Agreed, especially if the faction is one of the niche armor factions like Khanid or Ammatar. Assuming the module is desirable, it would encourage the mission runners to move to less popular (from an LP point-of-view) areas. MDD
Speaking as someone who likes running missions these quieter areas (among others), this would be a nice addition. :3
Given the common 5%/level bonus to armor resists given to most Khanid T2 ships (with the exception of the Anathema, Curse and Heretic), I could easily see this module being a special one only available via Khanid LP stores (as an example). But I'd throw it at the Ammatar as well just to give them something special too. Derelik could use a bit of love as well. |
Morgan North
The Wild Bunch Electus Matari
75
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:53:00 -
[35] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Regarding the higher meta level versions, yes this will most likely happen once we get the T1 version exactly right. Might not happen in time for Inferno though.
Regarding the cycle time, this is something we're monitoring. Adjusting the time (either directly or through the use of skill) is still very much an option.
A lesse cycle time would make it far far more atractive for PVP. Consider this:
One person fits a Adaptive module. One person flies a missile ship (single damage type). Person with missiles shoots and swaps ammunition to another type after he figure the adapter has adjusted completly. Rinse and repeat. |
Illrean
Old Prospectors Roid Alliance for Harvesting
1
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Posted - 2012.05.09 19:56:00 -
[36] - Quote
So are we going to be able to "Modulate the Shield Harmonics" and be able to do this with shield tanks.. or is this going to only be an Armor Tank thing? |
Perihelion Olenard
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
25
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Posted - 2012.05.09 20:56:00 -
[37] - Quote
A shorter cycle time would increase the capacitor this module uses, unless that's adjusted too. |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
11
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Posted - 2012.05.10 10:19:00 -
[38] - Quote
Illrean wrote:So are we going to be able to "Modulate the Shield Harmonics" and be able to do this with shield tanks.. or is this going to only be an Armor Tank thing?
So far this is armor only module. Shield got fueled shield booster. |
Kein Echerie
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.05.10 10:55:00 -
[39] - Quote
Morwen Lagann wrote:MailDeadDrop wrote:Cathrine Kenchov wrote:Also a faction mod that has reduced duration would be a good addition as well. Agreed, especially if the faction is one of the niche armor factions like Khanid or Ammatar. Assuming the module is desirable, it would encourage the mission runners to move to less popular (from an LP point-of-view) areas. MDD Speaking as someone who likes running missions these quieter areas (among others), this would be a nice addition. :3 Given the common 5%/level bonus to armor resists given to most Khanid T2 ships (with the exception of the Anathema, Curse and Heretic), I could easily see this module being a special one only available via Khanid LP stores (as an example). But I'd throw it at the Ammatar as well just to give them something special too. Derelik could use a bit of love as well. eh |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
11
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Posted - 2012.05.14 18:07:00 -
[40] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:2ofSpades wrote: (2) The other part I noticed was the hardener didnt seem to re-adapt. I was getting shot by a drake and my resistance was all kin and a proteus warped in started shooting me. The drake had stopped shooting me but my resistance didnt re-adapt to therm/kin for the proteus. This flaw actually worked out to my advantage because I had a thermal hardener fitted so I was able to avoid a stacking penalty. After I reset the hardener it did adapt to the proteus giving me 50/50 therm/kin. Once again not very adaptive but still a cool idea, you should nerf the drake with a 15% morphing shield resistance bonus instead of its 25% across the board.
The version we have is pretty simple. It just takes one point of the two lowest resists and adds them to the two highest resists. When it has no more points to take it just does nothing. The issue you have now is that your hardener has adapted to only kinetic damage which means all the other resistances are now at zero. This means as long as your kinetic damage is is one of the two highest damage types you take then it well never shift to take your second highest one into account. This seems slightly broken to me so I'll bring it to the attention of my team.
I would like to know if this was fixed or if it is still the issue. |
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Silly Slot
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
27
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Posted - 2012.05.14 18:30:00 -
[41] - Quote
wait no T2 for launch now im sad :(
I thought CCP's main push in the last release was to get rid of all the missing T2 modules and fix that issue
now we're adding more T1 items that will lack T2'??????????????????? |
Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Ev0ke
72
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Posted - 2012.05.14 23:55:00 -
[42] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:Cathrine Kenchov wrote:Also a faction mod that has reduced duration would be a good addition as well. Agreed, especially if the faction is one of the niche armor factions like Khanid or Ammatar. Assuming the module is desirable, it would encourage the mission runners to move to less popular (from an LP point-of-view) areas. MDD Ammatar has more or less a rebranded Amarr Navy Store.
Adding it to Khanid could work, then again all the items in the really small LP stores usually end up in a faction warfare LP store in a version that is plain better in every attribute for an eighth to a quarter the cost. |
Stealthshot
Three Words of Truth
2
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Posted - 2012.05.15 00:28:00 -
[43] - Quote
Dont forget to make some meta-x with longer cycle times so they have less cap use on active tanks or even better just use less cap. |
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
54
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Posted - 2012.05.15 11:13:00 -
[44] - Quote
Shpenat wrote:Copine Callmeknau wrote:
Why is this even a thing anyway? Can't we go back to discussing how this module is basically useless except on the tightest rep fits?
The module is quite useful. Meta 0 EANM gives +15% to all resists, +20% with all compensation skills at max. Adaptive hardener gives +15% to all resists before adaptation. Will shift to +30% against NPCs (as all of them uses at least 2 damage types) and +60% if being shot by single damage type (missiles). If we get T2 variant with +20% base resists it would compare to T2 EANM quite nicely. T2 EANM with all skills: +25% to all resists. T2 adaptive hardener base: 20% to all resists. T2 adaptive hardener against 2 damage type NPC: +40% T2 adaptive resist against single damage type: 80% now this is probably overpowered.
T2 adaptive resist against single damage type: 80% isn't overpowered, its just a matter of knowing what the current hole is and loading the appropriate ammo in your artillery on your tornado
I would think of this more as a module for strategic cruisers. maybe we could have a version of this module for T3s or have it get a good sized bonus if equipped to Tech 3 ships
another thought, I think this would be more appropriate to be able to get from sleepers, or you would get a chance of getting a BPC from researching sleeper defensive systems. |
Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems Tactical Narcotics Team
9
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Posted - 2012.05.15 11:48:00 -
[45] - Quote
Morgan North wrote:I've experimentedwith the module, but insofar I've not considered it too usefull. Seems like a good old EANM is better in all situations. EANM is better if you expect various types of damage. If you are being attacked with kinetic only (or a combo of two at most) then the adaptive hardener is not bad. If it didn't use any cap (which it does), i would say that it's better than EANM.
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Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
711
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 11:54:00 -
[46] - Quote
So the idea of this module is make Caldari and Minmatar, the races with selectable damage types, even more OP than Amarr and Gallente?
In the beginning high security space was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. |
Lordess Trader
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 12:31:00 -
[47] - Quote
I dunno, this resist module just doesnt seem to be worth it without a buff to make it more interesting....
As it stands, for mor euniversal fits for PVP an ENAM makes more sense. and for PVE specifically fitting the 2 damage types of the rats is insanely more useful...
Both of which are currently how armor fittings are done...
As it is the adapt doesnt seem very fast to me atleast, and the buff doesn't seem that much better than just fitting standard enams and a resist to fill your racial ships hole. but thats my 2 cents |
Lordess Trader
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 12:33:00 -
[48] - Quote
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:Morgan North wrote:I've experimentedwith the module, but insofar I've not considered it too usefull. Seems like a good old EANM is better in all situations. EANM is better if you expect various types of damage. If you are being attacked with kinetic only (or a combo of two at most) then the adaptive hardener is not bad. If it didn't use any cap (which it does), i would say that it's better than EANM.
The issue with this in a pvp situation in its current incarnation is the following,
Fit this mod, be ratting get dropped by an enemy, since the way the mod works your still taking say EM damage from the rat, and now your also taking damage from the enemys fireing say Explosive, instead of the module adapting back to a standard ENAM style resistence or even EM+EXP split that would be useful, what the module does is purposefully hold your resistences in a way that you have a huge hole to the new agressor. |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 09:31:00 -
[49] - Quote
I think there is easy way to fix this module. Instead of current system where you subtract 1% from every damage type not applied and add corresponding amount to incoming damage, do the following
Step 1) Subtract 1% from every non 0 damage no matter the incoming damage
Step 2) Evaluate incoming damage
Step 3) Distribute available resistance points cyclically starting from highest incoming damage type.
This scheme will have same calculation complexity as the checking conditions did not change (only in case of totally adapted module it will be more complex).
Pros: - The module will always adapt to incoming damage - Coding should be easy as it is just switch of two operation (checking for non-zero resists + subtracting and checking incoming damage types)
Cons: - Need some dev time to code and QA time - The adaptation speed will not be constant (+3% per cycle when adapting from default state, +1% per cycle when adapting from single damage type to another). This can actually be addressed in this new system quite easily by always subtracting 4 points from whatever damage are non 0 - needs more server time when completely adapted
Can anyone from devs please confirm that they read the post and whether there is still enough time to change this before inferno hits (or whether this is bad idea because I missed something)? |
Perihelion Olenard
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
26
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Posted - 2012.05.17 11:15:00 -
[50] - Quote
Lordess Trader wrote:Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:Morgan North wrote:I've experimentedwith the module, but insofar I've not considered it too usefull. Seems like a good old EANM is better in all situations. EANM is better if you expect various types of damage. If you are being attacked with kinetic only (or a combo of two at most) then the adaptive hardener is not bad. If it didn't use any cap (which it does), i would say that it's better than EANM. The issue with this in a pvp situation in its current incarnation is the following, Fit this mod, be ratting get dropped by an enemy, since the way the mod works your still taking say EM damage from the rat, and now your also taking damage from the enemys fireing say Explosive, instead of the module adapting back to a standard ENAM style resistence or even EM+EXP split that would be useful, what the module does is purposefully hold your resistences in a way that you have a huge hole to the new agressor.
Can the module still be reset by deactivating it and reactivating it? It will then adjust to the new proportion of damage. |
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Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 11:36:00 -
[51] - Quote
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
Can the module still be reset by deactivating it and reactivating it? It will then adjust to the new proportion of damage.
Yes. Deactivation resets the module. |
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
167
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 14:20:00 -
[52] - Quote
Haven't tested this mod but I feel in order for it to be effective, it needs to be at it's 100% potential within 2 shots. 2 shots is not overpower and would give the ship time to adapt. On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton where the dripping patchouli was more than scent, It was a sun-á |
Crellion
Parental Control
20
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 09:00:00 -
[53] - Quote
Roime wrote:So the idea of this module is make Caldari and Minmatar, the races with selectable damage types, even more OP than Amarr and Gallente?
Actually the opposite... but don't expect it to impact primarily pvp anyway... |
Riedle
Paradox Collective Choke Point
151
|
Posted - 2012.06.01 13:34:00 -
[54] - Quote
Morgan North wrote:I've experimentedwith the module, but insofar I've not considered it too usefull. Seems like a good old EANM is better in all situations.
I disagree. In PVP this is a good module. Primarily because it is active, you can over heat it. in my opinion if you have armour tanks that were fitted previously with two EANM II's I would keep one and switch the other one to this module.
This module will become standard in armour tanking much like dmg cntrl II is now. |
Abraham Moneybags
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.04 18:30:00 -
[55] - Quote
Anyone tested how well these work with Gang links? |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 23:20:00 -
[56] - Quote
Inferno feedback 1.1 thread is locked so.
Plugged in the new skill, 10% reduction in cycle time per level, now 5 second cycle.
This is a lot better.
Apart from the cap, this is now a lot of cap is this being changed?
Still feel that fundamentally the formula needs adjusting to better match damage patterns. |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
19
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 19:57:00 -
[57] - Quote
Cool. Now the hardener is even better than before. The only drawback I see is the rising cap usage. Maybe we can get cap reduction skill as well?
I agree the formula probably need some tweaking, but devs are afraid not to break it completely. TBH I understand them. |
carmelos53
Rebirth. THE GOD SQUAD
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 00:32:00 -
[58] - Quote
Still not worth using in pvp.... Way to much cap usage. Really really needs a t2 module released. Overal eanms are still way better.
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Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
405
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 14:57:00 -
[59] - Quote
i hope this isnt the only answer to the OP nature of shield tanking. if all damage mods are to remain lows, then this tanking mod needs to matter more. |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
20
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 11:09:00 -
[60] - Quote
Would it be possible to lower the activation cost a bit? With the new skill in place the capacitor requirement exclude this module from use on frigates and nearly on cruisers as well.
The basic module uses 42 GJ of capacitor every 10 seconds which translates to -4.2 capacitor per second (CPS) with lvl 5 of cycle time skill it will rise to -8.4 CPS which is very much comparable to cap usage of small armor repairer.
Together these modules draw over 17 CPS. On the other hand small capacitor booster using 400 navy charge can provide 18.2 CPS. Given the nature of adaptation module you need to run him permanently. Using the small armor repairer at the same time puts you at risk of losing all capacitor and excludes the use of any other active module.
I propose lowering the activation cost to 32 GJ or even lower. As long as this module has more than 15 GJ activation cost it will use more cap than armor hardener. |
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 12:19:00 -
[61] - Quote
And what if you create a shield version of this module ? Also, currently, the only race it advantages is minmatar, with missiles I loose my bonus in kinetic if I need to switch, plus 10 seconds cooldown. Knowing that the user just need to switch off the adaptive to reset the resists make the damage-swamp tactive just as useless as possible.
So no possibility to use the "holes" as said, and no possibility to equip it myself.. great. |
Bouh Revetoile
The Rough Riders Ares Protectiva
25
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Posted - 2012.06.19 12:39:00 -
[62] - Quote
Shpenat wrote: I propose lowering the activation cost to 32 GJ or even lower. As long as this module has more than 15 GJ activation cost it will use more cap than armor hardener.
I would be logical for an adaptive hardener to use more capacitor than a standard hardener, but a value more in line with shield hardener would be more manageable. Considering this skill doubling the cap use of a very cap hungry module, it's then difficult to sustain. |
PinkKnife
The Scope Gallente Federation
132
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 17:21:00 -
[63] - Quote
So, the skill for the new target breaker module both reduces cap use, AND cycle time. Why does the skilbook for this module only reduce cycle time? |
Aldeb Haraz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 19:44:00 -
[64] - Quote
I actually quite like the idea and mechanics behind this module; it adds a new dynamic to armor tanking (as well as an option for an active omni-resist module).
However, I feel that the new skill isnt quite what it should be. With the skill at level 0 (-4.2 cap/s), it is still abnormally cap hungry for a resist module (invuls are -3.2/s) but it is still a viable choice on cruisers and battlecruisers. This, in my opinion, is a very reasonable drawback for what the reactive hardener provides for the ship in terms of tank/resist added.
With the new skill, however, the cap usage shoots out the window all the way to -8.2 cap/s. This is high enough for a battleship to have to seriously consider whether the module is worth it over a second/third EANM, given that it essentially gives the same effect in regards to cap usage as a small energy neutralizer constantly being applied on your ship. As for ships smaller than a BC (at least ones that arent cap injecting constantly), the Reactive Armor Hardener is now really not a viable option, given the already low base capacitor on these size ships.
Thus, with the indelible nature of skillpoints you must choose whether to make the hardener a viable options for smaller ships or to increase it's effectiveness on battleships/caps. This is obviously a big problem in terms of game design, especially in EVE where the idea of a"sandbox" is constantly toted.
TLDR: The idea of a skill that INCREASES an already high cap use as you level it higher is plain bad game design. Either the base cap use at Level 0 needs to be lowered, or the skill needs to reduce cycle time as well as cap use (maintaining the old 4/2 cap/s drain) |
Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
405
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 07:41:00 -
[65] - Quote
^ ccp please fix. people are tired of just using shield buffers.
and when will you revisit active tanking? thanks. |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
20
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 08:56:00 -
[66] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:So, the skill for the new target breaker module both reduces cap use, AND cycle time. Why does the skilbook for this module only reduce cycle time?
I think they did not do it because of consistency. Non of the armor active modules have cap reduction possibility (the only exception being remote armor repairer). Even local armor repairer gets more cap hungry with shorter cycle time with no possibility to compensate.
However having cap usage comparable to medium armor repairer on module which is marginally better than T2 EANM makes no sense. |
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
193
|
Posted - 2012.07.20 14:20:00 -
[67] - Quote
My feedback:
1) Armor Resistance Phasing should reduce cap usage by 10% per level. Raising a skill should never have a direct and significant drawback.
That said, I think there's a case to be made for removing the cap cost alltogether. Armor tanked ships almost always have a higher cap consumption than shield tanked ones already and are more susceptible to energy neutralizers. Also, even if Armor Resistance Phasing reduced cap usage by 10% as suggested, the cap cost would still be problematic on smaller hulls.
2) The cycle time is too slow. Even with Armor Resistance Phasing V, it takes 75 seconds to get +30% resistance to two damage types.
3) I have not been able to find out whether +60% resistance to one damage type is possible, but if it is, then this is probably overpowered in some situations.
4) The module has currently limited applications as far as I can tell. In PvE, it is useful as third tanking module after having fitted two armor hardeners. It should be good in capital ship fights that often last long. As far as making armor tanking more appealing for regular PvP, the reactive armor hardener does basically nothing in my opinion.
5) Overheating the module only reduces cycle time somewhat. Personally I think overheating should increase the resistances gained instead.
6) The reactive armor hardener should not lose its resistance profile when it is turned off.
7) Do I like the general concept? Yes, I think it has potential. |
MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
990
|
Posted - 2012.07.20 18:21:00 -
[68] - Quote
Make it have a passive mode that costs no cap to use but lowers your total cap ammount or cap recharge for one
Then make it cost cap charges to use active.
When active it has a fast fast adaptation cycle.
When you turn it off the armor resistances won't change Why dust 514 is on Console and not PCBattle field 3 sales Xbox 360: 2.2 million PlayStation 3: 1.5 million PC: 500,000http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |
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