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MicroWarpdrive II Disorder. Shock Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.17 22:44:00 - [1] Day after day, week after week, month after month, the EVE community has acknowledged the inferiority of large projectiles in comparison with other large weaponry. I could go on about the nidhoggur, the naglfar, Hail and EMP, but I won't. This thread is completely dedicated to the problems that large projectile turrets suffer, and why they need to be fixed NOW. NO MORE STONEWALLING FROM CCP. DO NOT LET THEM IGNORE THIS ANY LONGER. 1) Large artillery has THE worst dps, THE worst range, and a complete lack of a range extending module. Let me clarify this. Large artillery uses falloff. Tracking computers and tracking enhancers do not modify this atribute in any way, shape, or form.All you are left with is a weapon with pre-HP buff nostalgia, and little else. 2) Large autocannons are, more often than not, fighting in falloff which leads to a noticeable DPS loss. 3) Large artillery needs a huge clip size boost. Have you ever tried fighting with only 10 rounds of ammo per gun? It slaughters your dps! Discuss.
Doctor Penguin Amarr Celestial Ascension Tenth Legion	Posted - 2009.04.17 22:47:00 - [2] Edited by: Doctor Penguin on 17/04/2009 22:49:07 Use other guns. (Not an ignorant answer, btw - I'm having to switch from Lasers to Projectiles because of the fact that you can't rat in Angel space with Lasers. It's painful, true, but it has to be done because the guns need downsides...) ________________________________________________ http://eve.drome.nl/CaodCleaner/ Help make CAOD readable.
Rhaegor Stormborn H A V O C Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.04.17 23:01:00 - [3] Minmatar as a race need to be reviewed. Our capital ships, guns, speed and agility, our electronic warfare, our battleships, our tech 2 ammos, everything. All of it needs to be reviewed. Amarr out class every race right now by a long shot. I don't want an Amarr nerf, I want a Minmatar buff.
Neo Omni Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.17 23:01:00 - [4] In the real world large artillery is used mainly for range. It's useless against moving targets although there is a class of artillery used in real world tanks that sprout fins as soon as fired and can be somewhat guided.
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.04.17 23:08:00 - [5] Could use some more alpha, yes? _______ ◕◡◕
Doctor Penguin Amarr Celestial Ascension Tenth Legion	Posted - 2009.04.17 23:09:00 - [6] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Minmatar as a race need to be reviewed. Our capital ships, guns, speed and agility, our electronic warfare, our battleships, our tech 2 ammos, everything. All of it needs to be reviewed. Amarr out class every race right now by a long shot. I don't want an Amarr nerf, I want a Minmatar buff. ?! Oh right, the Zealot is the entire Ammar lineup. Ammar have some great ships - our BSes and BCs - but many other ships - our T1 Crusiers and Frigates - are godawful (bar the Arbitrator). ________________________________________________ http://eve.drome.nl/CaodCleaner/ Help make CAOD readable.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.04.17 23:20:00 - [7] Edited by: Malcanis on 17/04/2009 23:20:55 It's hard to argue against an arty buff tbh. ACs have their niche (lolblasterwhines), but really, arty... specifically BS arty. I like the "reduce clip size/increased RoF" idea. Minmatar BS warps in, unloads 4-5 arty volleys in a brief burst of helldeath then either warps out or stick around doing nothing much for 10 seconds.
Dao2 Caldari No Limit Productions Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.18 00:12:00 - [8] Originally by: Doctor Penguin Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Minmatar as a race need to be reviewed. Our capital ships, guns, speed and agility, our electronic warfare, our battleships, our tech 2 ammos, everything. All of it needs to be reviewed. Amarr out class every race right now by a long shot. I don't want an Amarr nerf, I want a Minmatar buff. ?! Oh right, the Zealot is the entire Ammar lineup. Ammar have some great ships - our BSes and BCs - but many other ships - our T1 Crusiers and Frigates - are godawful (bar the Arbitrator). stabbers kinda useful but other then that not really ;p tracking link buff for our logistics? i mean really? and why does our dread have the worst tank, yet takes more training time (since you HAVE to train both capital launchers and projectiles) and we still have the worst dps. The speed agility **** (which doesn't really exist tbh :P) and "omni-tanking" should NOT apply to capitals and that's pretty damn obvious
Grimnir	Posted - 2009.04.18 00:23:00 - [9] Edited by: Grimnir on 18/04/2009 00:25:48 Originally by: Dao2 stabbers kinda useful but other then that not really ;p tracking link buff for our logistics? i mean really? and why does our dread have the worst tank, yet takes more training time (since you HAVE to train both capital launchers and projectiles) and we still have the worst dps. The speed agility **** (which doesn't really exist tbh :P) and "omni-tanking" should NOT apply to capitals and that's pretty damn obvious wrong alt :) Edit: However I agree completely. Considering that to be effect across the board, minmatar need 5 times the training (shiels, armour, missiles, guns, drones) thats not versatility anymore - that's class weakness or a race reduced to using other racial ships. Oh yeah, we still have to learn the ship skills too. Please CCP - we're not asking to be imba or uber, but please bring back the balance - We don't mind being a part of EvE on Hard, but EvE on legendary ? we aren't and we can't.
IVeige	Posted - 2009.04.18 00:24:00 - [10] In before BOF (Because of falcon)
Grimnir	Posted - 2009.04.18 00:27:00 - [11] Originally by: IVeige In before BOF (Because of falcon) This has been at issue before the recon class was introduced.
Vibora BR	Posted - 2009.04.18 00:30:00 - [12] I simply stopped training anything for Minmatar and start cross-training other races. Minmatar is ridiculous for mission running and below average for PVP. So I suggest you forget about minmatar and start training something else.
Dao2 Caldari No Limit Productions Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.18 00:35:00 - [13] Originally by: Vibora BR I simply stopped training anything for Minmatar and start cross-training other races. Minmatar is ridiculous for mission running and below average for PVP. So I suggest you forget about minmatar and start training something else. gotta admit the cane is a beast though :P that and the mael the 2 ships they did right :\|
Jana Clant New Dawn Tribe New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.04.18 00:42:00 - [14] Originally by: Grimnir Originally by: IVeige In before BOF (Because of falcon) This has been at issue before the recon class was introduced. Yes, but the Falcon went back in time and made projectiles what they're now. So it's really all BECAUSE OF FALCON. New Eden Research, where your research gets done!
Turiel Demon Minmatar Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2009.04.18 00:51:00 - [15] The Hurricane really broke the mold... it was so good, that it went back in time and pre-broke the mold on most minmatar ships made before it (except for the rifter and rupture). I don't think there's many people left outside of CCP's balance squad that don't believe large projectiles need a serious revision.
Sikozu Prioris Serenity Engineering and Transport Company Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.04.18 01:03:00 - [16] Something has to be the worst.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.04.18 01:08:00 - [17] Stonewalling, yeah, right. -------- Ideas for: Mining
MicroWarpdrive II Disorder. Shock Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.18 01:14:00 - [18] Originally by: Abrazzar Stonewalling, yeah, right. They just acknowledged that TODAY...and knowing them they won't do anything about it. It is at the bottom of that list you notice? Also, they had time to break blasters, and hopefully fix them again before they ever looked at projectiles...oh yeah we can really see the priorities here.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.04.18 01:24:00 - [19] Originally by: MicroWarpdrive II Originally by: Abrazzar Stonewalling, yeah, right. They just acknowledged that TODAY...and knowing them they won't do anything about it. It is at the bottom of that list you notice? Also, they had time to break blasters, and hopefully fix them again before they ever looked at projectiles...oh yeah we can really see the priorities here. You can see what you want to see. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order Tenth Legion	Posted - 2009.04.18 01:26:00 - [20] Just give the hurricane and tempest a 7th turret, the shield boosting ships a higher percentage boost per level, and make the nag have 3 turret hard points and 3 missile hardpoints. I'd be happy. Stop, hammer time.
MicroWarpdrive II Disorder. Shock Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.18 01:28:00 - [21] Edited by: MicroWarpdrive II on 18/04/2009 01:29:30 Originally by: Abrazzar You can see what you want to see. Um yes you can see what I want, did you read the topic title? Edit: Originally by: Megan Maynard Just give the hurricane and tempest a 7th turret, the shield boosting ships a higher percentage boost per level, and make the nag have 3 turret hard points and 3 missile hardpoints. I'd be happy. And give the Naglfar +100 CPU so it can fit a decent shield tank, -1 low and +1 mid. And get rid of that stupid split weapon systems bonus crap.
buttesauce	Posted - 2009.04.18 03:01:00 - [22] Give the naglfar a 3/3 slot tank. That way you can either chose to fit projectiles or missiles. Also give it more CPU! Also target painters should be the longest ranged ECM simply because it is painting a target so other people can hit it better. It makes sense that it should be farther ranged then other ecm so you can target paint something and have everyone else lock it. Also drop the weapon bonus on the bellicose and give it 10% increased range to stasis webifiers per level of minmatar cruiser! Give the bellicose, rapier, and huginn a built in 25% bonus to statis webifier effectiveness. ALSO BUFF LARGE ARTIES! GIVE THEM MORE RANGE!
Jones Bones Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2009.04.18 06:55:00 - [23] Rifter, Rupture, Hurricane, Claymore, Vagabond, etc. It's not THAT bad. =================== Go Bucks!
Bonny Lee Caldari The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation	Posted - 2009.04.18 08:24:00 - [24] Edited by: Bonny Lee on 18/04/2009 08:24:47 Edited by: Bonny Lee on 18/04/2009 08:24:23 Originally by: Jones Bones Rifter, Rupture, Hurricane, Claymore, Vagabond, etc. It's not THAT bad. Those are Ships relying on ACs and that works well. Minmatar isn¦t that bad but there are some things standing out that need to be fixed. Weaponsystems: (Artillery only) - Bigger Clips. - Adjusting Alpha to new Conditions - Perhaps a little bit more Range Weaponupgrades: - Falloffrangescript for Trackingcomputer. Ships: - Dread: No Split-Weapons, better Tank - Tempest: More PG for a full rack of 1400+ MWD + Plate etc. without RCU - Typhoon: Perhaps +1 Turret- +1 Missle-Slot That wouldnt make it much stronger but less Skill-Intensive. - Rapier/Huggin: Changing Target Painter Bonus in 3-5% Webber strength per LvL (resulting in a 75-80% Webber Strength @ lvl 5) I dont think we do need more Buffs.
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.04.18 08:46:00 - [25] Originally by: Malcanis I like the "reduce clip size/increased RoF" idea. Minmatar BS warps in, unloads 4-5 arty volleys in a brief burst of helldeath then either warps out or stick around doing nothing much for 10 seconds. Oohhh...awesomeness. Fits in with the hit and run thingy of Minmatar. 2 cov ops, one for shooting, one as warp-out point. Fleet warps to 1st, unloads, then warps to second and goes back to start position to repeat. - Nobody gets rich in this business. You simply obtain new levels of relative poverty.
Akumi Tukara	Posted - 2009.04.18 08:58:00 - [26] Just started training Minmatar BS. Can't wait to fly a tempest after seeing what some of my corp/alliance mates do in them. The biggest problem with minmatar I feel is that people try to fly them like 1. approach 2. DPS. That does not work for Minmatar
Bonny Lee Caldari The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation	Posted - 2009.04.18 09:07:00 - [27] Akumi maybee that the Tempest is fine with an AC-Setup and you are right you shouldnt just approach in Blaster range and fire then, but Tempest is also our Fleet-BS (Sniper) and thats where it has its problems. If you read the thread you perhaps would have seen that not everything is bad we just need some things fixed.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2009.04.18 09:09:00 - [28] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 18/04/2009 09:10:45 Originally by: Akumi Tukara The biggest problem with minmatar I feel is that people try to fly them like 1. approach 2. DPS. That does not work for Minmatar Yes, I find that the two options available are not Approach and Do Real Damage, but instead their near opposite: 1. Run, or 2. do Silly Damage --- Originally by: Roguehalo Can you nano Titans?
Akumi Tukara	Posted - 2009.04.18 09:11:00 - [29] Originally by: Bonny Lee Akumi maybee that the Tempest is fine with an AC-Setup and you are right you shouldnt just approach in Blaster range and fire then, but Tempest is also our Fleet-BS (Sniper) and thats where it has its problems. If you read the thread you perhaps would have seen that not everything is bad we just need some things fixed. Why is the Tempest the fleet sniper when Mael has bigger volley?
Toramii Le Moulin Rouge	Posted - 2009.04.18 09:17:00 - [30] Originally by: MicroWarpdrive II Originally by: Abrazzar Stonewalling, yeah, right. ... They just acknowledged that TODAY...and knowing them they won't do anything about it. It is at the bottom of that list you notice? ... Arn't you jumping to conclusions? Based on this post, artillery is not at the bottom of the list, its right near the top. CCP Nozh has already said he will tot up the number of times a balancing issue is raised before opening an official thread to discuss further, so to discuss artillery now is a little premature as it will be buried by the official post. The cause for projectiles / artillery would be better served at this moment by pointing people to register their top 3 concerns here so the issue gets the recognition it deserves.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2009.04.18 09:37:00 - [31] and then there's this bug that eats ~9% of 280mm/720mm/1400mm damage. so reduce that from your EFT values -.- - putting the gist back into logistics
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2009.04.18 09:39:00 - [32] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 18/04/2009 09:43:14 Originally by: Toramii The cause for projectiles / artillery would be better served at this moment by pointing people to register their top 3 concerns here so the issue gets the recognition it deserves. The big problem I have with threads like these, or voting on buffs/nerfs, is that their results are directly proportional to the number of players flying a specific race. Minmatar will then have the fewest issues, leading to the belief that its not as important as, say, buff blasters. Or, on the other hand, they could have the most issues since they are most likely to not be happy with game balance and therefore a larger number of them are posting on the forum. Either way, the final result is not to be trusted as a measurement of what is important to change. --- Originally by: Roguehalo Can you nano Titans?
mechtech Entropy Industries	Posted - 2009.04.18 09:41:00 - [33] Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 17/04/2009 23:20:55 It's hard to argue against an arty buff tbh. ACs have their niche (lolblasterwhines), but really, arty... specifically BS arty. I like the "reduce clip size/increased RoF" idea. Minmatar BS warps in, unloads 4-5 arty volleys in a brief burst of helldeath then either warps out or stick around doing nothing much for 10 seconds. I love this idea. CCP, don't be afraid to shake up the races a bit, they're all slowly merging into one boring uniform blob!
Cipher7	Posted - 2009.04.18 09:50:00 - [34] AC's could use a tiny boost. Maybe just bump the optimal a bit. Arty flat out sucks. Weak DPS, small clip, slow rate of fire, weak range. Even stylistically it sucks. The look and feel is weak. You hear a "bang" but all you see is bags of powder. ---
flashfreaking LFC Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.04.18 09:51:00 - [35] Let's take a look at a killmail, shall we? Linkage This is from a fleetfight, and, OH NO, look what ship is on top :O So seriously, less whining, more learning how to properly use a Tempest. I thank you
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2009.04.18 09:53:00 - [36] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 18/04/2009 09:55:15 Originally by: flashfreaking Let's take a look at a killmail, shall we? Linkage This is from a fleetfight, and, OH NO, look what ship is on top :O So seriously, less whining, more learning how to properly use a Tempest. I thank you Looks like the Tempest pilot were the only one who got a shot off. Thats where minmatar truly shines - when nobody else is shooting. --- Originally by: Roguehalo Can you nano Titans?
annoing Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.04.18 09:54:00 - [37] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Amarr out class every race right now by a long shot. If ONLY this were true i'd be a happy bunny. After 6yrs of amarr naffness its about time amarr had some loving. Ask to use the Goats Pleasure Palace when you visit the Fanfest this year
Toramii Le Moulin Rouge	Posted - 2009.04.18 10:40:00 - [38] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 18/04/2009 09:43:14 The big problem I have with threads like these, or voting on buffs/nerfs, is that their results are directly proportional to the number of players flying a specific race. Minmatar will then have the fewest issues, leading to the belief that its not as important as, say, buff blasters. Or, on the other hand, they could have the most issues since they are most likely to not be happy with game balance and therefore a larger number of them are posting on the forum. Either way, the final result is not to be trusted as a measurement of what is important to change. I still stand by people raising their concerns in the official thread as thats the mechanic CCP have put in place, and projectiles are a hot topic even though Minmatar are the smallest population (or most patient?). I recognize the large artillery issue (since the hitpoint buff - high alpha Tempest nerf) as its been sitting gathering dust for a long time and raised it in my top 3 ... and I'm virtually pure Gallente specialized.
Admiral IceBlock Caldari Northern Intelligence PuPPet MasTers	Posted - 2009.04.18 11:13:00 - [39] Quote: Weaponsystems: (Artillery only) - Bigger Clips. - Adjusting Alpha to new Conditions - Perhaps a little bit more Range Bigger clips? No. Higher alpha? Yes. More range? No. Quote: Weaponupgrades: - Falloffrangescript for Trackingcomputer. I guess this one is fair. Quote: Ships: - Dread: No Split-Weapons, better Tank - Tempest: More PG for a full rack of 1400+ MWD + Plate etc. without RCU - Typhoon: Perhaps +1 Turret- +1 Missle-Slot That wouldnt make it much stronger but less Skill-Intensive. - Rapier/Huggin: Changing Target Painter Bonus in 3-5% Webber strength per LvL (resulting in a 75-80% Webber Strength @ lvl 5) Dread should be 3/3 missile/turrets. Tank is fine. Tempest needs more PG? No. How can you justify such thing? With the same stupid analogy, Apoc and Geddon should in return be able to fitt full rack of Tachyons, MWD and plate without RCU. Is that fair? Tempest is FINE, projectiles, artillery to be specific, is not so fine. Typhoon is good as it is and is quite versatile. It does not need anything. Minmatar recons are fine as they are.
Rhyothyn Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2009.04.18 11:21:00 - [40] BOOST MINMATAR!
Sade Onyx	Posted - 2009.04.18 11:32:00 - [41] Edited by: Sade Onyx on 18/04/2009 11:32:44 Thing is though, something has to be the worst! I mean, if you boost large projectiles then it just means another race takes the last spot, and then they will moan about having "the worst blah blah" otherwise the game will just be everyone does exactly the same DPS. The best wars storys in history are not those where the war was completly balanced, nor was it the wars where the winning side was completly over powerd.. Its the wars where the underdog, the technically and quantifiably inferior wins! I love to watch eve videos, but the best ones are where a single minmatar ship wins against a superior army. Im not saying large guns dont need a look at, nor am I saying you need to have an inferior race to enjoy eve, all im saying is that you cant buff something just because its the worst a completly balanced game would be boring.
ArmyOfMe The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.04.18 11:58:00 - [42] Edited by: ArmyOfMe on 18/04/2009 12:06:41 Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 18/04/2009 09:10:45 Originally by: Akumi Tukara The biggest problem with minmatar I feel is that people try to fly them like 1. approach 2. DPS. That does not work for Minmatar Yes, I find that the two options available are not Approach and Do Real Damage, but instead their near opposite: 1. Run, or 2. do Silly Damage sadly that is very true. good to see you posting on the forums again jim, havnt seen you post much in ages.
Plubius Scipio	Posted - 2009.04.18 12:00:00 - [43] Originally by: MicroWarpdrive II Let me clarify this. Large artillery uses falloff. Tracking computers and tracking enhancers do not modify this atribute in any way, shape, or form.All you are left with is a weapon with pre-HP buff nostalgia, and little else. I'd like to address this. While I can understand having a script/bonus for these modules to increase falloff would be nice for ACs, increasing optimal range for arty is actually mathematically better than increasing their falloff.
Shigsy Neo Spartans	Posted - 2009.04.18 12:03:00 - [44] Nag should still be 2/2, but with only 3 highslots and a 100% damage bonus to projectiles and citadels torps... Now that's what i'd call versatility.
Seishi Maru M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.18 12:24:00 - [45] Originally by: Akumi Tukara Originally by: Bonny Lee Akumi maybee that the Tempest is fine with an AC-Setup and you are right you shouldnt just approach in Blaster range and fire then, but Tempest is also our Fleet-BS (Sniper) and thats where it has its problems. If you read the thread you perhaps would have seen that not everything is bad we just need some things fixed. Why is the Tempest the fleet sniper when Mael has bigger volley? lack of low slots. Since the stupid scripts nerf the low slot range mods are much much superior to the mid slot ones. And minmatar ships need 3 of them (against 2 from gallente 1 for ammar and zero for caldari) to reach 150 km range...
Veryez	Posted - 2009.04.18 13:32:00 - [46] Originally by: Akumi Tukara Just started training Minmatar BS. Can't wait to fly a tempest after seeing what some of my corp/alliance mates do in them. The biggest problem with minmatar I feel is that people try to fly them like 1. approach 2. DPS. That does not work for Minmatar Then please don't comment on large projectiles, you haven't used them. I have min BS 5, can use t2 large projectiles, torps, heavy drones, cruise, can shield or armor tank, etc, etc. And my 30 mil SP alt (with amarr BS 5) performs significantly better than my 60 mil SP main. Battleships do not dart in and out of battles, if you think they do, you are fooling yourself. Minmatar battleships do best when they can minimize the opponents damage (through EW or neuts) and/or dictate range. The nerf to ew and nos, the buff to passive tanks (so that using cap for repair is largely forgotten), the massive increase in ship and plate/shield extender HP's, the nerf to MWD's have all worked to place minmatar battleships well on the bottom of the list. Fly them, don't "EFT" them, see how they perform with artillery and AC's - don't have the iskies? Then fly them on sisi. Then try a passive amarr BS setup, Lasers eat cap? What else are you using it for? They may do poor damage types, but do far more damage at far better ranges that projectiles can ever achieve. Certain minmatar ships are very good, but for the most part they as AC boats that can fit respectible tanks due to AC's low PG usage. That doesn't mean other ships are fine. One can argue the best BS is the phoon since it doesn't rely on projectiles. If you want to train minmatar BS, then by all means do so. I have often said, people never know what they want, only what they don't want. Try them out. If you play EvE long enough, eventually you'll cross train (and minmatar are actually a bonus here, since you have to train so many skills just to fly their ships) and see how different weapon systems perform, then you'll know what you don't want.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2009.04.19 09:27:00 - [47] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 19/04/2009 09:30:09 Minmatar should go back to being the king of alpha strikes. At least then they would have something going for them. Right now they dont, and Abaddon is the king of alpha strike and long term dps at the same time. Somehow it was OK to make Amarr great at dealing long range damage. Is it because they use cap? I havent ran the numbers in a long time so maybe things have changed, but last I checked, Abaddon would have only slightly lower alpha but the dps would be almost twice of the Tempest. Actually a rework of the race advantages would be good. They are all too similar now, and its no point having 5 m/s extra speed or 5 dps extra alpha strike. Eve is a strategy game in space, and different races should have different strengths and weaknesses for strategy reasons. --- Originally by: Roguehalo Can you nano Titans?
mechtech Entropy Industries	Posted - 2009.04.19 09:44:00 - [48] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 19/04/2009 09:30:09 Minmatar should go back to being the king of alpha strikes. At least then they would have something going for them. Right now they dont, and Abaddon is the king of alpha strike and long term dps at the same time. Somehow it was OK to make Amarr great at dealing long range damage. Is it because they use cap? I havent ran the numbers in a long time so maybe things have changed, but last I checked, Abaddon would have only slightly lower alpha but the dps would be almost twice of the Tempest. Actually a rework of the race advantages would be good. They are all too similar now, and its no point having 5 m/s extra speed or 5 dps extra alpha strike. Eve is a strategy game in space, and different races should have different strengths and weaknesses for strategy reasons. I totally agree. A Rokh is a Maelstrom is an Abbadon is a Hyperion. They're all the same basically... I think different races should get different mechanics, like minmatar gets 3 rig slots everyone else gets one. Amarr are far more effective at overheating, gallente get some new drone mechanic, ect.
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues Rally Against Evil	Posted - 2009.04.19 09:59:00 - [49] I have no issues with range on my 1400 II's with tremor what are you guys firing, volvo's? Seriously arty's work fine if you actually put points in to gunnery, just speak to my mate Kron who is minmatar spec he has no issues getting high up on killmails and landing the final blow many times with arty fit ships, you're just doing it wrong :) --------- Liberty Rogues Site[/center]
Spurty Caldari Amok. Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.04.19 10:03:00 - [50] Edited by: Spurty on 19/04/2009 10:06:32 i like the discussion I'm reading here. There isn't being a call to nerf someone for starters and some facts and figures are being thrown around. If someone here isn't balancing a baby on their knee (i.e. Sorry, I can't do it) hows about a series of DPS over time graphs that takes into account re-loading (flat spots) and cap usuage of your average cookie cutter long range BS setup per race. Don't forget to make an alternative graph for large fleet combat that triples/quadruples reload time :( Make the graphs track dps over 2,5,60 mins (quick gate gank, medium sized fight, pos take down) at 180kms range using T2 ammo. If there is really no issue with projectiles, such a study should show it. What I imagine is people are surprised just how frequently the Minmatar ships are spending 10 seconds (if you aren't lagged out, thats all) reloading with their thumbs up their butts. I know of all the graphs I've looked at, these qualities were sorely missing (in some form or another). Yes, I have BS5 for Minmatar and BS 5 for Amarr, so I'm fine just flying Amarr to be honest, but I do miss aligning fast (running out of ammo and reloading all the time is lame lol) and the 'sailing ship look'. Would fly again if my experiences of module lag didn't ruin the fun. lagging out EDIT: Added the above linky Originally by: Butter Dog I think you'll find that 10 seconds > 1 month
Laarz	Posted - 2009.04.19 12:09:00 - [51] BOOST MINMATAR! Even though i have fully trained ammar now so aint really bothered.
JonnyKay Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.	Posted - 2009.04.19 13:14:00 - [52] Originally by: flashfreaking Let's take a look at a killmail, shall we? Linkage This is from a fleetfight, and, OH NO, look what ship is on top :O So seriously, less whining, more learning how to properly use a Tempest. I thank you wow, a megathron went down with a whole 161 damage? bugged killmail is bugged.

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