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cyndrogen Occultum Scientia 61	Posted - 2012.05.05 09:54:00 - [1] - Quote Oh wow did I fall for a scam tonight!!! Holy wallet pain! BUY order is placed for 80,000 with a minimum of 20,000 units (also happens to be the total amount needed, ) Sell order is placed for 40,000 at a different station. I bought the cheaper version, hauled to another station to sell and POOF...... sell order is gone!!!!!! How is this possible? I thought this scam was only setup for contract trading with margin trading?
Rajan Marelona Hedion University Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2012.05.05 10:14:00 - [2] - Quote You thought wrong. Margin trading is for normal market orders. This is the scam the forums are talking about for a long time.
cyndrogen Occultum Scientia 61	Posted - 2012.05.05 10:19:00 - [3] - Quote Rajan Marelona wrote: You thought wrong. Margin trading is for normal market orders. This is the scam the forums are talking about for a long time. very very effective. Can anything be done to get my ISK back or is that it?
Mu-Shi Ai Ai Capital 120	Posted - 2012.05.05 10:26:00 - [4] - Quote cyndrogen wrote: very very effective. Can anything be done to get my ISK back or is that it? Nope. No rules were broken. Think about it rationally for a moment and you'll realize that you were the victim of your own greed, and nothing else.
Implying Implications Broski Enterprises 45	Posted - 2012.05.05 10:44:00 - [5] - Quote its this thread again
cyndrogen Occultum Scientia 61	Posted - 2012.05.05 11:01:00 - [6] - Quote Mu-Shi Ai wrote: cyndrogen wrote: very very effective. Can anything be done to get my ISK back or is that it? Nope. No rules were broken. Think about it rationally for a moment and you'll realize that you were the victim of your own greed, and nothing else. Eve is an evil game, and Turizmo, the guy who brilliantly scammed me, deserves my ISK. I hope he uses it better then I did. My career in eve is done. I'm done, I have literally nothing left and even if I did, I can't justify spending another minute investing time in a game that allows fictitious BUY orders. If I had any stuff left I would give it away, my time in eve has concluded. Thanks for the fun times but I have to move on. Cyndrogen 2009-2012
papamike Precipice Industries 27	Posted - 2012.05.05 11:08:00 - [7] - Quote I dont believe a 3yr old player would be dumb enough to pour every last bit of isk into a single market order and have nothing left to fall back on Im calling a troll/ melodramatic rage post from someone who isnt in fact 'quiting eve' If you arent trolling or embellishing your rage-quit, honestly youre a **** and probably wont be missed by anyone.
Chevalleis The Legendary Conquest 116	Posted - 2012.05.05 11:42:00 - [8] - Quote I logged in just to +1 this ^
Perramas Pan Caldarian Ventures 60	Posted - 2012.05.05 12:18:00 - [9] - Quote This sounds like the old I was scammed scam looking for some bleeding heart to drop a bunch of ISK on you. If I am wrong the OP will be a valuable lesson to the newer players.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force 1089	Posted - 2012.05.05 12:40:00 - [10] - Quote https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=91204 "HOWTO: Screw a Margin Trade Scammer" Enjoy. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Akita_T http://eve-search.com/stats/Akita_T
Darth Tickles Dark Sun Consortium 295	Posted - 2012.05.05 12:55:00 - [11] - Quote WOLOLOLOLOLOLOL back to emoting with your cowman wizard
OllieNorth Recidivists Incorporated 182	Posted - 2012.05.05 13:40:00 - [12] - Quote I'm amazed I'm the first one here, but can I haz yer stuffz? /+1 for this thread again, Implying Implications' scalp is exquisite.
Mu-Shi Ai Ai Capital 121	Posted - 2012.05.05 13:52:00 - [13] - Quote cyndrogen wrote: As far as I am concerned it's a broken/malicious game mechanic. Why? If somebody had just happened to fill that order legitimately mere seconds before you did, it would have been the same exact outcome for all you know. There is never any guarantee that a juicy buy order is still going to be there by the time you get around to filling it, whether the order is legit or set up to fail.
cyndrogen Occultum Scientia 61	Posted - 2012.05.05 21:54:00 - [14] - Quote Perramas wrote: This sounds like the old I was scammed scam looking for some bleeding heart to drop a bunch of ISK on you. If I am wrong the OP will be a valuable lesson to the newer players. Agree I'm not posting this because I want ISK, really I'm bad at managing it as you can tell by my post, this is a warning to others who continue with market trading. BUY orders can be ficticious so trade carefully.
Liberty Eternal Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 71	Posted - 2012.05.05 22:07:00 - [15] - Quote cyndrogen wrote: If I had any stuff left I would give it away, my time in eve has concluded. Thanks for the fun times but I have to move on. Cyndrogen 2009-2012 It sucks that the game is designed in this way. It's true that EVE is a game where you can lose to a thief everything you've built up over years of gameplay in a single moment. But just because it is that way, doesn't mean it should be that way.
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking 289	Posted - 2012.05.05 22:08:00 - [16] - Quote Yes it should.
Liberty Eternal Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 71	Posted - 2012.05.05 22:10:00 - [17] - Quote corestwo wrote: Yes it should. Not really. I'm here because I live science fiction and space themes. If you want thieving, go live in a ghetto - there's plenty of them after all.
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking 289	Posted - 2012.05.05 22:14:00 - [18] - Quote "I'm here because I like the game to be such and such, but the game is also this way. I don't like it this way even though it was designed this way and has been this way since its creation. If you like it this way, you should leave."
Liberty Eternal Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 71	Posted - 2012.05.05 22:16:00 - [19] - Quote corestwo wrote: "I'm here because I like the game to be such and such, but the game is also this way. I don't like it this way even though it was designed this way and has been this way since its creation. If you like it this way, you should leave." And what are you, a reactionary defender of the status quo?
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking 289	Posted - 2012.05.05 22:21:00 - [20] - Quote Tell you the truth, I've never scammed in my life. I have all of three suicide ganks to my name, ever. All of my beating up on carebears is done out in 0.0, where they're implicitly consent to PvP, whether they think they have or not. I still hold that eve should be the way it is, that things like this scam, and thievery in general, and suicide ganking, and so on, should be possible. If you want a game where that kinda stuff isn't allowed, go find one. This one isn't it.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 699	Posted - 2012.05.05 23:06:00 - [21] - Quote Liberty Eternal wrote: cyndrogen wrote: If I had any stuff left I would give it away, my time in eve has concluded. Thanks for the fun times but I have to move on. Cyndrogen 2009-2012 It sucks that the game is designed in this way. It's true that EVE is a game where you can lose to a thief everything you've built up over years of gameplay in a single moment. But just because it is that way, doesn't mean it should be that way. Well, RL is worse. You don't even need to be scammed. All it takes to completely lose a lifetime of efforts in a RL market is to typo one zero too much once in your life. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Mu-Shi Ai Ai Capital 122	Posted - 2012.05.06 00:22:00 - [22] - Quote Liberty Eternal wrote: corestwo wrote: Yes it should. Not really. I'm here because I live science fiction and space themes. If you want thieving, go live in a ghetto - there's plenty of them after all. I thought you were Mr. Libertarian.
Mu-Shi Ai Ai Capital 122	Posted - 2012.05.06 00:29:00 - [23] - Quote corestwo wrote: Tell you the truth, I've never scammed in my life. I have all of three suicide ganks to my name, ever. All of my beating up on carebears is done out in 0.0, where they're implicitly consent to PvP, whether they think they have or not. I still hold that eve should be the way it is, that things like this scam, and thievery in general, and suicide ganking, and so on, should be possible. If you want a game where that kinda stuff isn't allowed, go find one. This one isn't it. e: Lets be clear here, you're saying that the game, which CCP has designed from day one to allow for the unwary player to lose everything, should not be a game in which you can lose everything. So uh, yeah. I basically agree with you, and yet I don't think that's the reason why this "scam" should be allowed to continue. The reason why it should be allowed to continue is because the game mechanic in question is fully usable for "legitimate" purposes, and really the scam itself has very little functionally to do with the Margin Trading mechanic. It's a totally psychological game, and one that could be played (albeit a bit more time-intensively) even without Margin Trading. Just to give an example of something I'm glad was greatly diminished: Contract scamming. The reason why is because those were mostly scams perpetrated with the help of really poor graphical UI. There was no reason for the UI and graphical elements to be so horrible that they actually contributed to scamming. I'm sure a lot of old contract scammers moaned when the changes hit, but the net result was an actual benefit to players in the form of a more informative UI. With Margin Trading, if we gimped the mechanic in order to satisfy these bitter scam victims, we'd be wrecking the game for a lot of legit players who use Margin Trading for non-scammy purposes. That's why Margin Trading should stay the way it is, not because we need to "preserve the scams" or whatever.
Liberty Eternal Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 71	Posted - 2012.05.06 00:59:00 - [24] - Quote Mu-Shi Ai wrote: Liberty Eternal wrote: corestwo wrote: Yes it should. Not really. I'm here because I live science fiction and space themes. If you want thieving, go live in a ghetto - there's plenty of them after all. I thought you were Mr. Libertarian. Block, this doesn't even make any sense.
Mu-Shi Ai Ai Capital 122	Posted - 2012.05.06 02:50:00 - [25] - Quote Liberty Eternal wrote: Block, this doesn't even make any sense. Block?
Mars Theran EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance 179	Posted - 2012.05.06 18:41:00 - [26] - Quote Yes, it's possible to block on the forums. Given your attitude towards that particular scamming feature, I'm not surprised he did. I suspect you use this regularly? Margin Tradings is fckd. I lost 4 billion to it last year and pretty much screwed my investment capital into the ground because of it. The mechanics is legit yeah, and it is a valid style of gameplay sure, and yes it can even theoretically happen in rl with embezzlement, fraud, etc... in one fashion or another. Here's the thing though, in rl people are generally protected from the effects of this by the entity that suffers the initial impact of such fraud, and the person who commits the crime is very likely to do the time. 20 years or more. It's not a light penalty and not many people will take that risk. Also, when you are actually the person dealing with the conman in rl, you get to deal with them and assess if they a real or con. Margin Trading in this game has no such allowances. The entire of the market supports it and represents it as real, and you simply don't find out until it is done. What are Tech 2 Small Rigs worth? I tell you I have a ton of them. Actually sold most by now at a 30-80% loss because I'm not the only one that got scammed. The thing is, it's not about being greedy either. That loss was the result of what seemed to be perfectly legitimate market orders at around the right range. I only stood to make a long term return of 500 million to 1.5 billion on the intial investment. Now they're selling for about twice the price of other T1 rigs in the same category. What's left anyway. That was just going on Sell orders and daily trade amounts. They were selling at 23 million and now they aren't moving at 2-3 million. I did do an investment on a margin trading scam around the same time as that foolish investment and lost the rest of my capital, so I only have what I recovered from that. The Margin trading scam was probably avoidable in retrospect, but I was trying to make back money from the previous bad investment. Turns out I was just throwing more away. Everybody tells you to look for the good deals and trades. If I had to tell you anything, it'd be that there aren't any. If it looks good, it is a scam. Alliance Auction - EVE Rogues: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1215438#post1215438
Mars Theran EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance 179	Posted - 2012.05.06 19:50:00 - [27] - Quote Actually, the most valid reason why the Margin Trading scam shouldn't exist is because you don't have to earn it. The skill itself takes very little to train and anyone can do it within a very short period of starting the game. Effectively it functions very simply: Train Margin Trading to 5, place buy order on market using it for x item, put up contract for x item or place sell order for x item, then profit. x item can be any item, from collectible to standard market item; it doesn't really matter, but it functions more effectively if x items isn't a commonly traded item. If it is commonly traded, you of course have other orders to deal with, so you might have to either buy people out wait until they have sold out stock. To make it more effective, simply place multiple sell orders up and buy and sell through your alts to create a market history, then run the scam, then profit. Functionally speaking that is fine, but with time considered, it is not. This can all be done with a character just out of trial, one alt to place the sell order or contract, and an investment in one PLEX to cover the details of buying x item in quantity and setting up the history. You lose a bit on buyouts maybe, and certainly a bit on taxes and fees for the setup, but you stand to make a lot more. In real life, there is no way any financial institution would finance you that capital in that short of a term and you would have to build up credit and history before they would allow you to place such an order. In EVE, all you have to do is train the skill, which doesn't take very long. There is very little psychological game to this or need for one. There was none with regards to the OP. In my case, (last year), there was a bit the second time. There is always psychology on the buyers end of course, and on the sellers, but not such that there is any interaction between the two required. The buyer is dealing with the market. This is a function of the game engine, whether players are running it or not. Margin Trading functions within this engine and thus it is extremely hard to identify without a very broad knowledge of the market and a great deal of experience, as well as knowing it is there. The first time I got scammed by Margin Trading was early on and I didn't have any idea what it was. This occured in much the same fashion as it did for the OP. Never figured it out IIRC, and thought it was some wierd bug or someone had filled the order at the same time as I did, only beat me to it. Possibly, this has happened many times without anyone being the wiser. The second time, I was still uninformed, the item was collectible in quantity and the rest of the contract contents should have covered the cost of my investment. Unfortunately, they didn't sell very well, the market dropped out on them, (more T2 Rigs following the first purchase and in the same day, less than an hour later IIRC), and the collectible was an MT scam and turned out to be worthless. I found out what Margin Trading was, but only following the third hit from it. I thought I had just been hit by an elaborate scam involving multiple players working together on Teamspeak or EVE Voice or something. The third time was the same day and shortly after. I saw another one and checked the market details. This time they had placed a large number, (7), of buy orders and I thought I could beat them at their own game, so I opened up multiple windows and completed Contract then sold within seconds, hitting each order in random sequence. They all collapsed of course and I ended up burning another 1.5 billion on that one. Of course the rest of the items in the contract sold, but it wasn't even close to the investment and took some time. I found out shortly after on the forums here that Margin Trading was a game mechanic; naturally I was pissed. At that point I didn't feel I had been scammed by the players, but rather cheated by the Devs. Naturally I'm still not happy about it, but recognize it as a "valid" game mechanic even if it is one I don't like. ..and you can't beat it. All you can do is ignore it and any 'good' deals. Alliance Auction - EVE Rogues: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1215438#post1215438
Josef Djugashvilis 148	Posted - 2012.05.06 19:56:00 - [28] - Quote Liberty Eternal wrote: corestwo wrote: Yes it should. Not really. I'm here because I live science fiction and space themes. If you want thieving, go live in a ghetto - there's plenty of them after all. Wall st is a ghetto? You want fries with that?
GreenSeed 36	Posted - 2012.05.06 20:33:00 - [29] - Quote cyndrogen wrote: Rajan Marelona wrote: You thought wrong. Margin trading is for normal market orders. This is the scam the forums are talking about for a long time. very very effective. Can anything be done to get my ISK back or is that it? Learn the way the markets work please, ALL the information you needed to tell this was a scam was already available for you. all you had to do was check the price history. And if you are not checking the price history for EVERY item you have an interest on the market, let alone those that smell like a scam, then my fried, you just crashed your car into a wall because you decided to drive shitfaced. No one to blame but yourself.
Callduron 132	Posted - 2012.05.06 21:13:00 - [30] - Quote Problem with Margin Trading scams is that it's at least half a UI issue. It's simply unbelievable to have a 50b order for widgets displaying with no money to cover it (after someone removes their own escrow). It's not immersive, the way the mechanic functions in the game is utterly counter-intuitive. If Eve is a story this is a piece of badly written narrative. Compare with, say, the Jita contract scammers where anyone paying 900m for 2 plex without reading closely what the contract is really offering deserves to lose. Also I'm not a big fan of mechanics that specifically advantage older players just for learning an idiosyncracy of the interface against clueless newbies. I'm fine with older players victimising newbies, I'd just prefer they didn't do it simply because the software is badly written.

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