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Sanctioning of Ninja Salvaging

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Shock Werx	Posted - 2009.04.21 09:12:00 - [1] although i see it as a real pita when someone comes in to your lev4 mission while you are still killing ships, goes up to your wrecks and begins to salvage them, i see it as fair gameplay IF it set off an agression timer just as if they looted your wreck. where's the Highsec pvp fun in watching someone salvage your wrecks and you cant do a single thing about it but get upset. of course you can war dec. them.... IF they didnt hide in the NPC corps.! I'm all for fair gameplay, but when it comes to the ninja salvaging (which i have done myself) there should be an agression towards it just as if you took what was IN the wreck. SLAP an agression timer on the salvagers... lets Play
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2009.04.21 09:42:00 - [2] I disagree. In fact, I'm of the belief that the aggression mechanics need a complete overhaul, as well as the concepts of 'loot rights'. The change would be simple: the owner of the ship that you just destroyed remains the owner of any cargo, salvage, drones and corpses which are generated from that ships destruction. This would mean that pvp and pve would now have identical properties, and not follow separate rules. You'd take a sec hit and receive an aggression timer for looting/salvaging said items. This includes aggression to that victims corporation. From a mission runners perspective, this would mean the loot and salvage in those missions no longer even remotely belongs to him, but belongs still to the rats. This won't stop you from salvaging (you just destroyed the rat, for heavens sake, so apparently you aren't too worried). This does carry with it an interesting side effect, however. If another player comes in and salvages while there are rats within the mission, they will actually receive an aggression flag, which competes with your own aggression flag. Rats that you haven't engaged, might possibly turn on the interloper and attack them instead. It's logical, it makes sense, and it helps reinforce the rules between PvP and PvE mechanics, so that they are better understood by players who are unfamiliar with one, or the other. Originally by: 5pinDizzy Troll Score-o-Meter --------Failure----------\|\|\|-----------Succes------- 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1--0--1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10
NightF0x Gallente Intergalactic League of Terrorists	Posted - 2009.04.21 10:10:00 - [3] Originally by: Shock Werx although i see it as a real pita when someone comes in to your lev4 mission while you are still killing ships, goes up to your wrecks and begins to salvage them, i see it as fair gameplay IF it set off an agression timer just as if they looted your wreck. where's the Highsec pvp fun in watching someone salvage your wrecks and you cant do a single thing about it but get upset. of course you can war dec. them.... IF they didnt hide in the NPC corps.! I'm all for fair gameplay, but when it comes to the ninja salvaging (which i have done myself) there should be an agression towards it just as if you took what was IN the wreck. SLAP an agression timer on the salvagers... lets Play Thankfully CCP agrees with me that aggression timers on salvage isn't worth it. Salvage is free-for-all and isn't intended to be more income for overpaid mission runners. Want to prove me wrong? Start reading Dev posts...or I can post some myself and prove my point. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=971872&page=1#30 Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further. Simple solution to the non-issue. Please don't take this as any bashing just for suggesting ideas. I have nothing against brainstorming on the forums. However, I'm going to let you in on a little CCP non-secret which is: "NPE". EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. However, it's also accepted that, on top of the intended complexity, the tools and rules you play with/by aren't highly intuative. You are suggesting a dual functionality.. one for newbies and another for vets (of course you did not say that, however just because some people chill in newb corps and ain't newbs doesn't mean we should punish the new players) and to compound the inherent confusion in that the newbie functionality is more hostile and more open to griefing than the veteran functionality. It shouldn't be much different.. and if it had to be it should be the other way around. ------------------------------------
Shock Werx	Posted - 2009.04.21 10:34:00 - [4] well let's see. if you jet out a can, i guess that person no longer wanted what they jettisoned. therefore when taking from "someone's" can, there should be no agression timer. of course if someone took all the air from your tires, it's ok, becuase it wasnt Your air to begin with lol. im just saying it would make it more fun for the nija salvagers And the people getting ninja'd at the same time. Obviously you are in complete disagrement because you are of 2 in your own corp strictly in that business, which would put a hindrance on your income
Galvatine Caldari Dark Materials Heretic Nation	Posted - 2009.04.21 10:42:00 - [5] Originally by: Shock Werx well let's see. if you jet out a can, i guess that person no longer wanted what they jettisoned. therefore when taking from "someone's" can, there should be no agression timer. of course if someone took all the air from your tires, it's ok, becuase it wasnt Your air to begin with lol. im just saying it would make it more fun for the nija salvagers And the people getting ninja'd at the same time. Obviously you are in complete disagrement because you are of 2 in your own corp strictly in that business, which would put a hindrance on your income Bring on the flag I say, then sit back and wait for the tears
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2009.04.21 10:55:00 - [6] Originally by: Shock Werx well let's see. if you jet out a can, i guess that person no longer wanted what they jettisoned. therefore when taking from "someone's" can, there should be no agression timer. of course if someone took all the air from your tires, it's ok, becuase it wasnt Your air to begin with lol. im just saying it would make it more fun for the nija salvagers And the people getting ninja'd at the same time. Obviously you are in complete disagrement because you are of 2 in your own corp strictly in that business, which would put a hindrance on your income I also support removing rights from jet cans. It would in one step encourage ore theft, but as well also encourage player cooperation and use of proper game mechanics. And lets not forget the impact it would have on gank tactics. By the way, which of us are you talking to? I'm in a three man corp of just me, thank you very much, and strictly forbid piracy/ninja salvaging within UNK. Originally by: 5pinDizzy Troll Score-o-Meter --------Failure----------\|\|\|-----------Succes------- 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1--0--1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10
scetec	Posted - 2009.04.21 11:11:00 - [7] thinking since he reffered to "corp. of 2", it was meant for NightF0x heheh
scetec	Posted - 2009.04.21 11:13:00 - [8] oh yes yes... Bring on the Flagging! lol
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.21 11:14:00 - [9] Originally by: Shock Werx although i see it as a real pita when someone comes in to your lev4 mission .. blaaa no, its fine as it is. Salvage ist yours and isnt reward for mission running.
scetec	Posted - 2009.04.21 11:23:00 - [10] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Shock Werx although i see it as a real pita when someone comes in to your lev4 mission .. blaaa no, its fine as it is. Salvage ist yours and isnt reward for mission running. well, then again neither is the loot from the wrecks, but there is a flag for it when it is stolen... that was Very controvercial btw lol. hey off topic a tad. if i scanned down a mission and went into it while someone was there and started shooting that person's rats would i get flagged for it? wait... those are Who's rats? yeah lots of gray area to the whole thing. but would make it even more fun to shoot the ships as well for the Xtra bounties while im there cleaning up there mess.... err the Rat's mess! yes yes....
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2009.04.21 11:29:00 - [11] The only issue there is the loot. If you spawn a mission, the ONLY thing in it that's YOURS is the loot from the rats you shoot. The asteroids, building, rats, even salvage ... all of this is property for all. All of it, except the loot. Go figure. Originally by: 5pinDizzy Troll Score-o-Meter --------Failure----------\|\|\|-----------Succes------- 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1--0--1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.21 11:29:00 - [12] Originally by: scetec well, then again neither is the loot from the wrecks, but there is a flag for it when it is stolen... that was Very controvercial btw lol. hey off topic a tad. if i scanned down a mission and went into it while someone was there and started shooting that person's rats would i get flagged for it? wait... those are Who's rats? yeah lots of gray area to the whole thing. but would make it even more fun to shoot the ships as well for the Xtra bounties while im there cleaning up there mess.... err the Rat's mess! yes yes.... the analogy to the loot is inappropriate, these are 2 different things. The rules say the first is yours, the second not. Life isn't consistent, the game isn't consistent, in RL we have sometimes rules we dont understand but have to follow, the same applies to any game out there.
scetec	Posted - 2009.04.21 11:33:00 - [13] that makes sense, but doesnt answer the question of killing someone elses rats in there mission. oooh funny thing is lev3's and 4's have warp scramming rats... i'm sensing some fun lol. sorry brainstorming
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.21 12:03:00 - [14] why should you not be allowed to shoot mission rats. The mission is only technically spawned for you, from the perspective of the gameplay there are missions you may do, the rats arent yours so everybody may shoot them. I do so if im bored but have no standing for my own missions... Why at all, there are enough in mission hubs...
Shock Werx	Posted - 2009.04.21 12:10:00 - [15] well i see that eve's forums is proposed of just a few people that sit in the forums all day and post. nothing better to do? really dont care. the simple fact that i was bringing up some ideas about ninja salvaging and 90% of the people here replying Are ninja salvagers is sorta lame lol....
Miilla	Posted - 2009.04.21 12:28:00 - [16] Edited by: Miilla on 21/04/2009 12:28:05 Rabble rabble rabble Tear Tears Tears. Eve isnt for you. Try Lego Universe. Ill loot in a stealth bomber then once u get agro on me, bam :)
Shock Werx	Posted - 2009.04.21 12:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 21/04/2009 12:28:05 Rabble rabble rabble Tear Tears Tears. Eve isnt for you. Try Lego Universe. Ill loot in a stealth bomber then once u get agro on me, bam :) hrmm.. i see no tears. if you posted to get a rise out of me you failed. btw wtf is Lego Universe? clearly you know more on it than i. eve isnt for me? maybe not, idk... wich reminds me i'm late for my tactical shoot /yawn
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.21 12:52:00 - [18] Originally by: Shock Werx well i see that eve's forums is proposed of just a few people that sit in the forums all day and post. nothing better to do? really dont care. the simple fact that i was bringing up some ideas about ninja salvaging and 90% of the people here replying Are ninja salvagers is sorta lame lol.... you arent bringing some new ideas, there are plenties of another carebear-whine threads wanting flagging salvagers for more ISK.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.04.21 12:57:00 - [19] Edited by: Bibbleibble on 21/04/2009 12:57:29 Point number 1 Mission ships don't do so well against PVP fit ships. That is just a fact. How many mission fits contain a warp scrambler/disruptor? How many mission fits use very specific hardeners? About all of them. Considering that shooting at a target even with aggression would cause them to have shooting rights on you, your mission ship will be OMGWTFBBQPWN'd by any reasonable ship brought out against you. This would cause more problems for mission runners like you as supply and demand would make your (now often replaced) ships much more expensive. Trust me when I say you would not find that fun. Point Number 2 Salvage ninjas spend quite a lot of time training to learn how to probe down missioning ships. This means real game time of actually finding you, and training time. It is not fair, however you may justify it, to make this useless. And ninja salvaging makes much less profit than running your own missions, so you cannot complain that they are getting an unfair advantage. Point Number 3 GM Faolchu : Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Senior GM Ytterbium : Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. CCP Prism X : Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Point Number 4 You can prevent ninja Salvagers from invading your mission by moving from missioning hubs to more quiet systems. I have on my main a nice L4q18 agent in a system with about 20 people in local MAX. This means my chances of having my salvage ninja'd is very small. However you may lose just a little profit on the mission. Or move to low sec and get free aggression on them there! I am not a salvage ninja, and I run my own missions, but I like to consider that salvaging ninjas make the game a better place by making it less like WOW. Check out my ideas! An unusual idea about lowsec and antipiracy
Hariya	Posted - 2009.04.21 15:25:00 - [20] You have the power to lock on your weapons and blow the ninja. That's enough. If you can't however handle the high sec, please stay out of it.
Neo Omni Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.21 15:53:00 - [21] Well, tell me if this is the same situation: You are mining and another miner comes up alongside and decides that he wants to mine the same rock you are. Can you kill him for it? Is that rock yours? Or just what you got out of it? Does it applies to ships as well?
Hariya	Posted - 2009.04.21 16:43:00 - [22] Originally by: Neo Omni Well, tell me if this is the same situation: You are mining and another miner comes up alongside and decides that he wants to mine the same rock you are. Can you kill him for it? Is that rock yours? Or just what you got out of it? Does it applies to ships as well? Of course I can. Ctrl-click, F1, the other ship vaporizes. This whole game is mine, get off it or pay me protection fee.
Lord Future Gallente NORTHSTAR CORPORATION Northstar Coalition	Posted - 2009.04.21 16:49:00 - [23] To me there are 5 basic rules of survival in EVE... If it's in space, someone will try to take it. If it's in your hold, someone will try to take it. If it's in your wallet, someone will try to take it. If it's in your hanger, someone will try to take it. If it's in your POS, someone will try to take it. These rules tell you EVE is a free for all. Either mop up the salvage as you go along or waste ammo and destroy them. Just stop whining about it.
Cyprus Black Caldari Elitist Jerks Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.21 17:09:00 - [24] As an avid ninja salvager, I must say no. I'll compromise on salvage rights if CCP gives us the ability to scan down and warp to salvage wrecks w/o other players present. ______________ Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project	Posted - 2009.04.21 17:33:00 - [25] just give mission runners the ability to set a password on the acceleration gates, that way the ninja salvager can't get into an active mission anyways, he can still salvage from past missions as the gates have despawned.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.21 18:02:00 - [26] Originally by: Caldari 5 just give mission runners the ability to set a password on the acceleration gates, that way the ninja salvager can't get into an active mission anyways, he can still salvage from past missions as the gates have despawned. no
Johli Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.04.21 18:11:00 - [27] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Caldari 5 just give mission runners the ability to set a password on the acceleration gates, that way the ninja salvager can't get into an active mission anyways, he can still salvage from past missions as the gates have despawned. no
Hariya	Posted - 2009.04.21 18:24:00 - [28] Stop playing like a complete ******. Just ctrl-click the player, F1. He will vaporize. And oh, don't run missions in high sec if you can't handle high sec having disadvantages over low sec. Risk vs reward.
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project	Posted - 2009.04.21 18:51:00 - [29] Originally by: Hariya Stop playing like a complete ******. Just ctrl-click the player, F1. He will vaporize. And oh, don't run missions in high sec if you can't handle high sec having disadvantages over low sec. Risk vs reward. Small problem with shooting the ninja salvager in HS, that is CONCORD, if you shoot him CONCORD shoot you and he gets off scott-free. Where is the Risk/Reward in that?
Hariya	Posted - 2009.04.21 18:55:00 - [30] Edited by: Hariya on 21/04/2009 18:55:06 Originally by: Caldari 5 Originally by: Hariya Stop playing like a complete ****. Just ctrl-click the player, F1. He will vaporize. And oh, don't run missions in high sec if you can't handle high sec having disadvantages over low sec. Risk vs reward. Small problem with shooting the ninja salvager in HS, that is CONCORD, if you shoot him CONCORD shoot you and he gets off scott-free. Where is the Risk/Reward in that? What part of Quote:** And oh, don't run missions in high sec if you can't handle high sec having disadvantages over low sec. Risk vs reward. you had problems understanding?

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