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Sanctioning of Ninja Salvaging

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Shock Werx	Posted - 2009.04.21 09:12:00 - [1] although i see it as a real pita when someone comes in to your lev4 mission while you are still killing ships, goes up to your wrecks and begins to salvage them, i see it as fair gameplay IF it set off an agression timer just as if they looted your wreck. where's the Highsec pvp fun in watching someone salvage your wrecks and you cant do a single thing about it but get upset. of course you can war dec. them.... IF they didnt hide in the NPC corps.! I'm all for fair gameplay, but when it comes to the ninja salvaging (which i have done myself) there should be an agression towards it just as if you took what was IN the wreck. SLAP an agression timer on the salvagers... lets Play
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2009.04.21 09:42:00 - [2] I disagree. In fact, I'm of the belief that the aggression mechanics need a complete overhaul, as well as the concepts of 'loot rights'. The change would be simple: the owner of the ship that you just destroyed remains the owner of any cargo, salvage, drones and corpses which are generated from that ships destruction. This would mean that pvp and pve would now have identical properties, and not follow separate rules. You'd take a sec hit and receive an aggression timer for looting/salvaging said items. This includes aggression to that victims corporation. From a mission runners perspective, this would mean the loot and salvage in those missions no longer even remotely belongs to him, but belongs still to the rats. This won't stop you from salvaging (you just destroyed the rat, for heavens sake, so apparently you aren't too worried). This does carry with it an interesting side effect, however. If another player comes in and salvages while there are rats within the mission, they will actually receive an aggression flag, which competes with your own aggression flag. Rats that you haven't engaged, might possibly turn on the interloper and attack them instead. It's logical, it makes sense, and it helps reinforce the rules between PvP and PvE mechanics, so that they are better understood by players who are unfamiliar with one, or the other. Originally by: 5pinDizzy Troll Score-o-Meter --------Failure----------\|\|\|-----------Succes------- 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1--0--1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10
NightF0x Gallente Intergalactic League of Terrorists	Posted - 2009.04.21 10:10:00 - [3] Originally by: Shock Werx although i see it as a real pita when someone comes in to your lev4 mission while you are still killing ships, goes up to your wrecks and begins to salvage them, i see it as fair gameplay IF it set off an agression timer just as if they looted your wreck. where's the Highsec pvp fun in watching someone salvage your wrecks and you cant do a single thing about it but get upset. of course you can war dec. them.... IF they didnt hide in the NPC corps.! I'm all for fair gameplay, but when it comes to the ninja salvaging (which i have done myself) there should be an agression towards it just as if you took what was IN the wreck. SLAP an agression timer on the salvagers... lets Play Thankfully CCP agrees with me that aggression timers on salvage isn't worth it. Salvage is free-for-all and isn't intended to be more income for overpaid mission runners. Want to prove me wrong? Start reading Dev posts...or I can post some myself and prove my point. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=971872&page=1#30 Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further. Simple solution to the non-issue. Please don't take this as any bashing just for suggesting ideas. I have nothing against brainstorming on the forums. However, I'm going to let you in on a little CCP non-secret which is: "NPE". EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. However, it's also accepted that, on top of the intended complexity, the tools and rules you play with/by aren't highly intuative. You are suggesting a dual functionality.. one for newbies and another for vets (of course you did not say that, however just because some people chill in newb corps and ain't newbs doesn't mean we should punish the new players) and to compound the inherent confusion in that the newbie functionality is more hostile and more open to griefing than the veteran functionality. It shouldn't be much different.. and if it had to be it should be the other way around. ------------------------------------
Shock Werx	Posted - 2009.04.21 10:34:00 - [4] well let's see. if you jet out a can, i guess that person no longer wanted what they jettisoned. therefore when taking from "someone's" can, there should be no agression timer. of course if someone took all the air from your tires, it's ok, becuase it wasnt Your air to begin with lol. im just saying it would make it more fun for the nija salvagers And the people getting ninja'd at the same time. Obviously you are in complete disagrement because you are of 2 in your own corp strictly in that business, which would put a hindrance on your income
Galvatine Caldari Dark Materials Heretic Nation	Posted - 2009.04.21 10:42:00 - [5] Originally by: Shock Werx well let's see. if you jet out a can, i guess that person no longer wanted what they jettisoned. therefore when taking from "someone's" can, there should be no agression timer. of course if someone took all the air from your tires, it's ok, becuase it wasnt Your air to begin with lol. im just saying it would make it more fun for the nija salvagers And the people getting ninja'd at the same time. Obviously you are in complete disagrement because you are of 2 in your own corp strictly in that business, which would put a hindrance on your income Bring on the flag I say, then sit back and wait for the tears
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2009.04.21 10:55:00 - [6] Originally by: Shock Werx well let's see. if you jet out a can, i guess that person no longer wanted what they jettisoned. therefore when taking from "someone's" can, there should be no agression timer. of course if someone took all the air from your tires, it's ok, becuase it wasnt Your air to begin with lol. im just saying it would make it more fun for the nija salvagers And the people getting ninja'd at the same time. Obviously you are in complete disagrement because you are of 2 in your own corp strictly in that business, which would put a hindrance on your income I also support removing rights from jet cans. It would in one step encourage ore theft, but as well also encourage player cooperation and use of proper game mechanics. And lets not forget the impact it would have on gank tactics. By the way, which of us are you talking to? I'm in a three man corp of just me, thank you very much, and strictly forbid piracy/ninja salvaging within UNK. Originally by: 5pinDizzy Troll Score-o-Meter --------Failure----------\|\|\|-----------Succes------- 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1--0--1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10
scetec	Posted - 2009.04.21 11:11:00 - [7] thinking since he reffered to "corp. of 2", it was meant for NightF0x heheh
scetec	Posted - 2009.04.21 11:13:00 - [8] oh yes yes... Bring on the Flagging! lol
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.21 11:14:00 - [9] Originally by: Shock Werx although i see it as a real pita when someone comes in to your lev4 mission .. blaaa no, its fine as it is. Salvage ist yours and isnt reward for mission running.
scetec	Posted - 2009.04.21 11:23:00 - [10] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Shock Werx although i see it as a real pita when someone comes in to your lev4 mission .. blaaa no, its fine as it is. Salvage ist yours and isnt reward for mission running. well, then again neither is the loot from the wrecks, but there is a flag for it when it is stolen... that was Very controvercial btw lol. hey off topic a tad. if i scanned down a mission and went into it while someone was there and started shooting that person's rats would i get flagged for it? wait... those are Who's rats? yeah lots of gray area to the whole thing. but would make it even more fun to shoot the ships as well for the Xtra bounties while im there cleaning up there mess.... err the Rat's mess! yes yes....
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2009.04.21 11:29:00 - [11] The only issue there is the loot. If you spawn a mission, the ONLY thing in it that's YOURS is the loot from the rats you shoot. The asteroids, building, rats, even salvage ... all of this is property for all. All of it, except the loot. Go figure. Originally by: 5pinDizzy Troll Score-o-Meter --------Failure----------\|\|\|-----------Succes------- 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1--0--1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.21 11:29:00 - [12] Originally by: scetec well, then again neither is the loot from the wrecks, but there is a flag for it when it is stolen... that was Very controvercial btw lol. hey off topic a tad. if i scanned down a mission and went into it while someone was there and started shooting that person's rats would i get flagged for it? wait... those are Who's rats? yeah lots of gray area to the whole thing. but would make it even more fun to shoot the ships as well for the Xtra bounties while im there cleaning up there mess.... err the Rat's mess! yes yes.... the analogy to the loot is inappropriate, these are 2 different things. The rules say the first is yours, the second not. Life isn't consistent, the game isn't consistent, in RL we have sometimes rules we dont understand but have to follow, the same applies to any game out there.
scetec	Posted - 2009.04.21 11:33:00 - [13] that makes sense, but doesnt answer the question of killing someone elses rats in there mission. oooh funny thing is lev3's and 4's have warp scramming rats... i'm sensing some fun lol. sorry brainstorming
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.21 12:03:00 - [14] why should you not be allowed to shoot mission rats. The mission is only technically spawned for you, from the perspective of the gameplay there are missions you may do, the rats arent yours so everybody may shoot them. I do so if im bored but have no standing for my own missions... Why at all, there are enough in mission hubs...
Shock Werx	Posted - 2009.04.21 12:10:00 - [15] well i see that eve's forums is proposed of just a few people that sit in the forums all day and post. nothing better to do? really dont care. the simple fact that i was bringing up some ideas about ninja salvaging and 90% of the people here replying Are ninja salvagers is sorta lame lol....
Miilla	Posted - 2009.04.21 12:28:00 - [16] Edited by: Miilla on 21/04/2009 12:28:05 Rabble rabble rabble Tear Tears Tears. Eve isnt for you. Try Lego Universe. Ill loot in a stealth bomber then once u get agro on me, bam :)
Shock Werx	Posted - 2009.04.21 12:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 21/04/2009 12:28:05 Rabble rabble rabble Tear Tears Tears. Eve isnt for you. Try Lego Universe. Ill loot in a stealth bomber then once u get agro on me, bam :) hrmm.. i see no tears. if you posted to get a rise out of me you failed. btw wtf is Lego Universe? clearly you know more on it than i. eve isnt for me? maybe not, idk... wich reminds me i'm late for my tactical shoot /yawn
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.21 12:52:00 - [18] Originally by: Shock Werx well i see that eve's forums is proposed of just a few people that sit in the forums all day and post. nothing better to do? really dont care. the simple fact that i was bringing up some ideas about ninja salvaging and 90% of the people here replying Are ninja salvagers is sorta lame lol.... you arent bringing some new ideas, there are plenties of another carebear-whine threads wanting flagging salvagers for more ISK.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.04.21 12:57:00 - [19] Edited by: Bibbleibble on 21/04/2009 12:57:29 Point number 1 Mission ships don't do so well against PVP fit ships. That is just a fact. How many mission fits contain a warp scrambler/disruptor? How many mission fits use very specific hardeners? About all of them. Considering that shooting at a target even with aggression would cause them to have shooting rights on you, your mission ship will be OMGWTFBBQPWN'd by any reasonable ship brought out against you. This would cause more problems for mission runners like you as supply and demand would make your (now often replaced) ships much more expensive. Trust me when I say you would not find that fun. Point Number 2 Salvage ninjas spend quite a lot of time training to learn how to probe down missioning ships. This means real game time of actually finding you, and training time. It is not fair, however you may justify it, to make this useless. And ninja salvaging makes much less profit than running your own missions, so you cannot complain that they are getting an unfair advantage. Point Number 3 GM Faolchu : Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Senior GM Ytterbium : Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. CCP Prism X : Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Point Number 4 You can prevent ninja Salvagers from invading your mission by moving from missioning hubs to more quiet systems. I have on my main a nice L4q18 agent in a system with about 20 people in local MAX. This means my chances of having my salvage ninja'd is very small. However you may lose just a little profit on the mission. Or move to low sec and get free aggression on them there! I am not a salvage ninja, and I run my own missions, but I like to consider that salvaging ninjas make the game a better place by making it less like WOW. Check out my ideas! An unusual idea about lowsec and antipiracy
Hariya	Posted - 2009.04.21 15:25:00 - [20] You have the power to lock on your weapons and blow the ninja. That's enough. If you can't however handle the high sec, please stay out of it.
Neo Omni Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.21 15:53:00 - [21] Well, tell me if this is the same situation: You are mining and another miner comes up alongside and decides that he wants to mine the same rock you are. Can you kill him for it? Is that rock yours? Or just what you got out of it? Does it applies to ships as well?
Hariya	Posted - 2009.04.21 16:43:00 - [22] Originally by: Neo Omni Well, tell me if this is the same situation: You are mining and another miner comes up alongside and decides that he wants to mine the same rock you are. Can you kill him for it? Is that rock yours? Or just what you got out of it? Does it applies to ships as well? Of course I can. Ctrl-click, F1, the other ship vaporizes. This whole game is mine, get off it or pay me protection fee.
Lord Future Gallente NORTHSTAR CORPORATION Northstar Coalition	Posted - 2009.04.21 16:49:00 - [23] To me there are 5 basic rules of survival in EVE... If it's in space, someone will try to take it. If it's in your hold, someone will try to take it. If it's in your wallet, someone will try to take it. If it's in your hanger, someone will try to take it. If it's in your POS, someone will try to take it. These rules tell you EVE is a free for all. Either mop up the salvage as you go along or waste ammo and destroy them. Just stop whining about it.
Cyprus Black Caldari Elitist Jerks Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.21 17:09:00 - [24] As an avid ninja salvager, I must say no. I'll compromise on salvage rights if CCP gives us the ability to scan down and warp to salvage wrecks w/o other players present. ______________ Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project	Posted - 2009.04.21 17:33:00 - [25] just give mission runners the ability to set a password on the acceleration gates, that way the ninja salvager can't get into an active mission anyways, he can still salvage from past missions as the gates have despawned.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.21 18:02:00 - [26] Originally by: Caldari 5 just give mission runners the ability to set a password on the acceleration gates, that way the ninja salvager can't get into an active mission anyways, he can still salvage from past missions as the gates have despawned. no
Johli Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.04.21 18:11:00 - [27] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Caldari 5 just give mission runners the ability to set a password on the acceleration gates, that way the ninja salvager can't get into an active mission anyways, he can still salvage from past missions as the gates have despawned. no
Hariya	Posted - 2009.04.21 18:24:00 - [28] Stop playing like a complete ******. Just ctrl-click the player, F1. He will vaporize. And oh, don't run missions in high sec if you can't handle high sec having disadvantages over low sec. Risk vs reward.
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project	Posted - 2009.04.21 18:51:00 - [29] Originally by: Hariya Stop playing like a complete ******. Just ctrl-click the player, F1. He will vaporize. And oh, don't run missions in high sec if you can't handle high sec having disadvantages over low sec. Risk vs reward. Small problem with shooting the ninja salvager in HS, that is CONCORD, if you shoot him CONCORD shoot you and he gets off scott-free. Where is the Risk/Reward in that?
Hariya	Posted - 2009.04.21 18:55:00 - [30] Edited by: Hariya on 21/04/2009 18:55:06 Originally by: Caldari 5 Originally by: Hariya Stop playing like a complete ****. Just ctrl-click the player, F1. He will vaporize. And oh, don't run missions in high sec if you can't handle high sec having disadvantages over low sec. Risk vs reward. Small problem with shooting the ninja salvager in HS, that is CONCORD, if you shoot him CONCORD shoot you and he gets off scott-free. Where is the Risk/Reward in that? What part of Quote:** And oh, don't run missions in high sec if you can't handle high sec having disadvantages over low sec. Risk vs reward. you had problems understanding?
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project	Posted - 2009.04.21 19:09:00 - [31] Originally by: Hariya What part of Quote: And oh, don't run missions in high sec if you can't handle high sec having disadvantages over low sec. Risk vs reward. you had problems understanding? Low Sec = Higher Risk Low Sec Reward = High Sec Reward So as far as risk vs reward goes, its still unbalanced, doing missions in LS should give Higher rewards than HS, but it doesn't so nobody runs missions there, too many pirates(high risk)
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.21 19:27:00 - [32] but you could shoot salvagers in your missions.
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project	Posted - 2009.04.21 19:34:00 - [33] Originally by: Robert Caldera but you could shoot salvagers in your missions. Still has the Sec Hit on it, it's not till you are in 0.0 that there is no sec hit for shooting salvagers.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.21 19:40:00 - [34] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/04/2009 19:40:05 so what are you suggesting??? The salvage isnt meant to be mission reward, why protect it in some way from salvagers if you arent willing to shoot them??
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project	Posted - 2009.04.21 19:45:00 - [35] Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/04/2009 19:40:25 so what are you suggesting??? The salvage isnt meant to be mission reward, why protect it in some way from salvagers if you arent willing to shoot them on your own?? Flag/Remove the Sec hit for shooting them and they WILL be shot just as quick as any JetCan Tipping Ore Thief.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.21 19:52:00 - [36] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/04/2009 19:52:45 this would effectively reserve wrecks for mission runners, exactly what shall not happen, like I said, wrecks arent a part of mission rewards, any measure for protecting them from salvagers would preserve them for mission runners and make them so to a part of the mission reward.
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project	Posted - 2009.04.21 19:57:00 - [37] Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/04/2009 19:52:45 this would effectively reserve wrecks for mission runners, exactly what shall not happen, like I said, wrecks arent a part of mission rewards, any measure for protecting them from salvagers would preserve them for mission runners and make them so to a part of the mission reward. Please re-read all of my Posts in this thread, It's not the salvaging that I have the issue with, it's the salvaging in an active mission that I have a problem with. If the mission is handed in and the gates despawn it's open season on the salvage, until that point however it is mission space and thus the mission runners.
Hariya	Posted - 2009.04.21 20:02:00 - [38] Originally by: Caldari 5 it's the salvaging in an active mission that I have a problem with Then you're doing several things worth. It is easy to cause a ninja salvager to lose his ship.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.21 20:08:00 - [39] Originally by: Caldari 5 Please re-read all of my Posts in this thread, It's not the salvaging that I have the issue with, it's the salvaging in an active mission that I have a problem with. If the mission is handed in and the gates despawn it's open season on the salvage, until that point however it is mission space and thus the mission runners. Why? WHHYYYYYY????? Why the hell should the mission space be protected from other people??? Its not a WoW instance!
Dharh	Posted - 2009.04.21 20:14:00 - [40] Frankly, non-secure cans shouldn't flag looters unless the owner is within 5km of the can at the time it gets pillaged and only in CONCORD space, after you have filed a report to the police, in triplicate form.
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project	Posted - 2009.04.21 20:28:00 - [41] Originally by: Robert Caldera Its not a WoW instance! Having not played WoW, I have no idea what this section means.
Hariya	Posted - 2009.04.21 20:29:00 - [42] Originally by: Caldari 5 Originally by: Robert Caldera Its not a WoW instance! Having not played WoW, I have no idea what this section means. Perhaps you are playing the wrong game then
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project	Posted - 2009.04.21 20:37:00 - [43] Originally by: Robert Caldera Why? WHHYYYYYY????? Why the hell should the mission space be protected from other people??? When you are doing a mission you are doing it on behalf of the Faction's Police/Controlling bodies. Now IRL Police cordon of an area when they are doing something major(arrest/accident/murder scene/etc), so no non-police personal are allowed near the scene of the incident. How is this different from the mission runner being able to lock the gate so nobody outside his squad can access it?
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project	Posted - 2009.04.21 20:41:00 - [44] Originally by: Hariya Originally by: Caldari 5 Originally by: Robert Caldera Its not a WoW instance! Having not played WoW, I have no idea what this section means. Perhaps you are playing the wrong game then Pansy looking Elves and fantasy setting Axes and such are not my area of interest. I watch Stargate, Battlestar Galactica and Eureka, not Robinhood and <insert other fantasy BS Show here>
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.04.21 20:53:00 - [45] Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 21/04/2009 20:54:22 Originally by: Caldari 5 Please re-read all of my Posts in this thread, It's not the salvaging that I have the issue with, it's the salvaging in an active mission that I have a problem with. If the mission is handed in and the gates despawn it's open season on the salvage, until that point however it is mission space and thus the mission runners. Two points: 1. How are ninja salvagers to find the completed mission space if there are no ships there, only unscannable wrecks? 2. Mission runners can sweep up a mission's wrecks before handing in the mission within time limits. I've done it plenty myself. Your proposed solution effectively reserves the wrecks for the mission runner until he decides he doesn't want them by handing in the mission. This is not an acceptable solution as it effectively adds wrecks to mission rewards, which is not their purpose. There is no problem with salvaging an active mission. The salvager is taking more risk as the mission runner could cause the mission NPCs to attack him.
Dharh	Posted - 2009.04.21 20:57:00 - [46] Originally by: Caldari 5 Originally by: Robert Caldera Why? WHHYYYYYY????? Why the hell should the mission space be protected from other people??? When you are doing a mission you are doing it on behalf of the Faction's Police/Controlling bodies. Now IRL Police cordon of an area when they are doing something major(arrest/accident/murder scene/etc), so no non-police personal are allowed near the scene of the incident. How is this different from the mission runner being able to lock the gate so nobody outside his squad can access it? This is a game in space. Areas of space that large aren't cordoned off. The gates are there only to get you to the next spot like a bookmark does. Its not a pocket of space that exists outside of the galaxy. If you show up on the scanner you're fair game. CONCORD frowns on certain actions like stealing, killing, etc. But not salvaging what are essentially useless wrecks.
Tigman II	Posted - 2009.04.21 21:05:00 - [47] I personally find the current rules very acceptable. Salvaging differs a lot from looting when it comes to its own mechanics so even the rules should be different. The only way I can see making some missioners happy is to make it harder for people to track down missions. Usually ppl will scan within 2-4 au of a planet/object so if u make spawn points harder to track down the chances are lot less for ninjas to find these places.
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project	Posted - 2009.04.21 21:16:00 - [48] Originally by: Lear Hepburn Two points: 1. How are ninja salvagers to find the completed mission space if there are no ships there, only unscannable wrecks? 2. Mission runners can sweep up a mission's wrecks before handing in the mission within time limits. I've done it plenty myself. Your proposed solution effectively reserves the wrecks for the mission runner until he decides he doesn't want them by handing in the mission. This is not an acceptable solution as it effectively adds wrecks to mission rewards, which is not their purpose. 1. Having not ever tried to scan down a wreck I didn't know that they were not scannable, I thought that they were, maybe this is something that can be looked at. 2. See my response to point 1. Quote: There is no problem with salvaging an active mission. The salvager is taking more risk as the mission runner could cause the mission NPCs to attack him. How is the salvager at risk? The mission runner has all the agro. Even warping out of the mission after agroing the entire room doesn't cause issue to the salvager, as they are typically in a smaller ship to the mission runner and can align and get out before the agro switches. (mission runner probably in a BS, and the salvager in a Destroyer)
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.21 21:28:00 - [49] Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/04/2009 19:52:45 this would effectively reserve wrecks for mission runners, exactly what shall not happen, like I said, wrecks arent a part of mission rewards, any measure for protecting them from salvagers would preserve them for mission runners and make them so to a part of the mission reward. locking gates reserves wrecks for the mission runner. Is it that hard to understand?
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.04.21 21:29:00 - [50] Originally by: Caldari 5 1. Having not ever tried to scan down a wreck I didn't know that they were not scannable, I thought that they were, maybe this is something that can be looked at. 2. See my response to point 1. Even if wrecks were scannable they would still be at the mercy of the mission runner as, under your plan, only he can open up gates, leaving whole rooms of wrecks for him to salvage at leisure. Quote: How is the salvager at risk? The mission runner has all the agro. Even warping out of the mission after agroing the entire room doesn't cause issue to the salvager, as they are typically in a smaller ship to the mission runner and can align and get out before the agro switches. (mission runner probably in a BS, and the salvager in a Destroyer) It is quite possible to cause the rats to aggro on the salvager. If the salvager gets out of there then unless he's bookmarked he's got to scan down the mission again - quite an inconvenience. That said, I'm not entirely certain what your beef with close-by cleanup crews actually is. If you're happy to let them salvage "your" wrecks then why can't they salvage the same room you're in?
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2009.04.21 21:32:00 - [51] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/04/2009 19:52:45 this would effectively reserve wrecks for mission runners, exactly what shall not happen, like I said, wrecks arent a part of mission rewards, any measure for protecting them from salvagers would preserve them for mission runners and make them so to a part of the mission reward. locking gates reserves wrecks for the mission runner. Is it that hard to understand? It would also reserve the rats, the asteroids, and all the other items within that deadspace pocket for the mission runner. At which point, the idea of non-instanced gameplay is flown from EvE. If you don't want to play in a game world that is seamlessly open and free, EvE is not the game for you. Try one of the more traditional MMO's where the developers go out of their way to protect you from yourself and other players. EvE makes an attempt, at least, to provide a seamless universe. Why is it so difficult to comprehend that this would betray one of the founding principles of what makes EvE successful?
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project	Posted - 2009.04.21 22:00:00 - [52] Originally by: Lear Hepburn That said, I'm not entirely certain what your beef with close-by cleanup crews actually is. If you're happy to let them salvage "your" wrecks then why can't they salvage the same room you're in? They are not in fleet and thus don't know when tank is broken and to get the ** out of the mission I have lost 2 ships due to **tard salvagers preventing me aligning to get out of the mission.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.21 22:17:00 - [53] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/04/2009 22:18:55 Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon It would also reserve the rats, the asteroids, and all the other items within that deadspace pocket for the mission runner. At which point, the idea of non-instanced gameplay is flown from EvE. If you don't want to play in a game world that is seamlessly open and free, EvE is not the game for you. Try one of the more traditional MMO's where the developers go out of their way to protect you from yourself and other players. EvE makes an attempt, at least, to provide a seamless universe. Why is it so difficult to comprehend that this would betray one of the founding principles of what makes EvE successful? why are you quoting me in your post?? I am not requesting gate locks and such crp. Originally by:* Caldari 5 They are not in fleet and thus don't know when tank is broken and to get the ** out of the mission I have lost 2 ships due to **tard salvagers preventing me aligning to get out of the mission. what a silly argument. 1) has nothing to do with the topic 2) sounds quite costructed, did them bump you out of alignment or what way could they prevent you from warping??
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.04.21 22:18:00 - [54] Originally by: Caldari 5 Originally by: Lear Hepburn That said, I'm not entirely certain what your beef with close-by cleanup crews actually is. If you're happy to let them salvage "your" wrecks then why can't they salvage the same room you're in? They are not in fleet and thus don't know when tank is broken and to get the ** out of the mission I have lost 2 ships due to **tard salvagers preventing me aligning to get out of the mission. So you want an MMO without other people interfering? Methinks you are in the wrong place. Seriously, if the only reason you want people out of your mission space is because they screw with your plans then you need to go to WoW. That is life in Eve I'm afraid - like it or leave it.
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2009.04.21 22:18:00 - [55] Originally by: Caldari 5 Originally by: Lear Hepburn That said, I'm not entirely certain what your beef with close-by cleanup crews actually is. If you're happy to let them salvage "your" wrecks then why can't they salvage the same room you're in? They are not in fleet and thus don't know when tank is broken and to get the ** out of the mission I have lost 2 ships due to tard salvagers preventing me aligning to get out of the mission. Have you thought about inviting them into your fleet? They could save a lot of time spent probing and searching, and you could save a lot of the hassle that you mentioned. All it takes is to broach a conversation other than explicatives in local ... Originally by:** 5pinDizzy Troll Score-o-Meter --------Failure----------\|\|\|-----------Succes------- 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1--0--1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.04.21 23:07:00 - [56] Quote: They are not in fleet and thus don't know when tank is broken and to get the ** out of the mission I have lost 2 ships due to tard salvagers preventing me aligning to get out of the mission. In my experience, ninjasalvagers aren't going to go out of their way to you over unless you give them a reason to. The most they might do is nab the mission reward and charge you a few mil for its safe return. It's when the MRs start *ing that their overpaid, overpowered ISK printing machine is slightly less profitable because of us evil bottomfeeding sthat we start doing stuff like that Anyway, as stated by the GMs and CCP: Salvage is not yours. Salvaging is a separate profession for people who like to go around and look for wrecks to salvage. Salvage, unlike missioning, is competitive and if you get to the wrecks late, tough **, you lose.
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.04.21 23:17:00 - [57] Actually some people got some things wrong ... For example everytime when someone talks about ninja salvaging someone responds that mission runners should be lucky that it does not trigger because otherwise they will die when they try to fight back. But the truth is that if ninja salvagers would actually want to fight back they would loot to flag themself as legitim target for this purpose. Its just that they dont do it and as such it seems like your argumentation is not to well. Another thing wich is also potentially wrong is to think that god-like CCP does not make any failures. In fact they are just normal people and due to some constraints we are not aware of they simply do some things wrong by purpose. For example not everyone is aware of the fact that whenever a foreign person reps yourself in highsec you can give the friendly repper a concord-death whenever you want. Actually its a weird bug which is a side effect of the "error-solution" to fix the gank+rep problematik. Bug hunters will tell you that its a feature by purpose but in reality its just a weird side effect which can not be easily fixed. Somehow im getting sad. Always the same flawed arguments when it comes to the ninja-salvaging topic. The reality is that salvaging mechanic is totally broken. I am not able to tell you if its by purpose or as side effect which can not be easily fixed because of lacking ressources. But for example when salvaging is really meant as "profession" shoulnt it be possible to scan down salvage and not only the mission runners who might be actually producing them? Maybe its just a feature which was introduced in this way to actually generate this sort of conflict. Who knows. And by the way: im happy that so many people are arguing in favor of the current salvaging mechanic. Without this sort of comments the issue would not be recognized as real issue. (ECM mechanic changed a while ago - wasnt ECM one of the whine topic nr 1 before this happened?) Probably i should start ninja salving by myself. When the trouble increases the chance to a solution will also increase. Hmm reminds me that i still need to find a gankable victim to remind people of the rep-feature oddness.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.04.22 16:06:00 - [58] Originally by: Kel Nissa Actually some people got some things wrong ... For example everytime when someone talks about ninja salvaging someone responds that mission runners should be lucky that it does not trigger because otherwise they will die when they try to fight back. But the truth is that if ninja salvagers would actually want to fight back they would loot to flag themself as legitim target for this purpose. Its just that they dont do it and as such it seems like your argumentation is not to well. True, but opening up the mechanic to flagging would make ninja salvaging another form of can flipping. Do you really want your expensive faction-fitted PvE ship open to the attentions of PvP fitted ships? Currently ninja salvagers do not want to fight back as this is how the mechanic works - change the mechanic and people will adapt. Quote: Another thing wich is also potentially wrong is to think that god-like CCP does not make any failures. In fact they are just normal people and due to some constraints we are not aware of they simply do some things wrong by purpose. For example not everyone is aware of the fact that whenever a foreign person reps yourself in highsec you can give the friendly repper a concord-death whenever you want. Actually its a weird bug which is a side effect of the "error-solution" to fix the gank+rep problematik. Bug hunters will tell you that its a feature by purpose but in reality its just a weird side effect which can not be easily fixed. Of course CCP make mistakes, but this has been mentioned by them time and time again as a feature. Salvaging is a profession, whether you like it or not. Quote: Somehow im getting sad. Always the same flawed arguments when it comes to the ninja-salvaging topic. The reality is that salvaging mechanic is totally broken. I am not able to tell you if its by purpose or as side effect which can not be easily fixed because of lacking ressources. But for example when salvaging is really meant as "profession" shoulnt it be possible to scan down salvage and not only the mission runners who might be actually producing them? Maybe its just a feature which was introduced in this way to actually generate this sort of conflict. Who knows. I agree that salvage should be scannable. Quote: And by the way: im happy that so many people are arguing in favor of the current salvaging mechanic. Without this sort of comments the issue would not be recognized as real issue. (ECM mechanic changed a while ago - wasnt ECM one of the whine topic nr 1 before this happened?) Probably i should start ninja salving by myself. When the trouble increases the chance to a solution will also increase. Hmm reminds me that i still need to find a gankable victim to remind people of the rep-feature oddness. Maybe you should. Someone has said before that they think that more ninja salvagers are generated due to threads like these. The fact is, though, that a balance will be reached. X wrecks are produced, so X wrecks will be salvagable by Y salvagers. If <X wrecks are produced then Y salvagers can no lnger be supported, pushing would-be salvagers into other professions.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.22 16:12:00 - [59] mhh maybe the expectation of having the wrecks to salvage after a mission and hence considering them as a part of the reward will disappear as soon as enough salvagers would salvage every single damn mission done in the hubs so the thinking of salvagers disappera as well some day??
Hariya	Posted - 2009.04.22 17:29:00 - [60] Originally by: Robert Caldera mhh maybe the expectation of having the wrecks to salvage after a mission and hence considering them as a part of the reward will disappear as soon as enough salvagers would salvage every single damn mission done in the hubs so the thinking of salvagers disappera as well some day?? Aye. I once proposed that the wrecks should last for only 5 minutes. It would practically remove ninja salvaging entirely and promote team work in running missions. People would contract newbies into salvage and split the wealth etc. It would make nice time for many people waiting for their ie. learning skills to finish. Also keep in mind that level 4s were already intended to be non-soloable. The real solution to the whole issue is to make the points of the "I want it all without any effort of actually playing the game" idiots just plain moot by making the game how it really should be. Multi player game.
4THELULZ	Posted - 2009.04.22 19:29:00 - [61] HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Ok no seriously, did you think about this at all? Here's what'll happen if you put this in: Ninja takes wrecks Carebear fires on ninja Ninja comes back in a battleship and wtfpwns carebear CNR Carebear comes back to whine on the forums, much as you're doing now. Just look what happened with can aggro. Dead miners everywhere. Griefers are better at taking advantage of systems like this than carebears ever will be. Try to bear that in mind before making yet more short sighted whine threads like this.
ImCoolerThanYou	Posted - 2009.04.22 19:48:00 - [62] Edited by: ImCoolerThanYou on 22/04/2009 19:52:10 This is a totally new type of request... Seriously though, this is the #1 most irritating topic that is mindlessly complained about. You want to attack someone salvaging trash in space without concord interference, do your missions in low sec or 0.0. Ninja salvagers make rigs cheaper, you probably were not going to salvage anyway. They win, salvage buyers win, rig buyers win, all when ninja salvagers do their job.
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.04.22 23:44:00 - [63] Edited by: Kel Nissa on 22/04/2009 23:44:38 The last 2 posts where exactly this kind of stupid posts i talked about .. the first one talks about "ninjas will kill the carbears" - hey to be honest if they want doing that ninjas would loot. They dont loot and as such they are hiding behind the mechanic. Beliefe me the trueth is that actually mission runners are mostly not pure carebears - they are often pvp players farming isks for their real business. And some of them would be really willing to knock out this ninjas. The other one talkes about ninjas getting rigs cheaper. What a LOL. Do you really thing that mission runners would complain about ninja salvagers all the time when they are not willing to salvage their stuff? Actually most of them salvage their stuff because its worth the effort. And ninjas salvage selectively on mission runners they expect high valuable salvage - exactly this ones are the players who would salvage their missions or trade the wrecks to friends if they actually dont care about.
NightF0x Gallente Intergalactic League of Terrorists	Posted - 2009.04.23 02:58:00 - [64] Originally by: Kel Nissa Edited by: Kel Nissa on 22/04/2009 23:44:38 The last 2 posts where exactly this kind of stupid posts i talked about .. the first one talks about "ninjas will kill the carbears" - hey to be honest if they want doing that ninjas would loot. They dont loot and as such they are hiding behind the mechanic. Beliefe me the trueth is that actually mission runners are mostly not pure carebears - they are often pvp players farming isks for their real business. And some of them would be really willing to knock out this ninjas. The other one talkes about ninjas getting rigs cheaper. What a LOL. Do you really thing that mission runners would complain about ninja salvagers all the time when they are not willing to salvage their stuff? Actually most of them salvage their stuff because its worth the effort. And ninjas salvage selectively on mission runners they expect high valuable salvage - exactly this ones are the players who would salvage their missions or trade the wrecks to friends if they actually dont care about. What part of CCP's stance of salvaging is 'not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding' don't you understand? ------------------------------------
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.04.23 05:38:00 - [65] Originally by: Kel Nissa Edited by: Kel Nissa on 22/04/2009 23:44:38 The last 2 posts where exactly this kind of stupid posts i talked about .. the first one talks about "ninjas will kill the carbears" - hey to be honest if they want doing that ninjas would loot. They dont loot and as such they are hiding behind the mechanic. Beliefe me the trueth is that actually mission runners are mostly not pure carebears - they are often pvp players farming isks for their real business. And some of them would be really willing to knock out this ninjas. A PvP player in a PvE ship will not "knock out" a suitable prepared "salvage flip" (as I shall refer to the tactic of using salvaging as a way to get aggro, just like can flipping). I'd suggest that such a player would be more likely to leave the salvage to the salvager as he would know how vulnerable his PvE ship was to such traps. Quote: The other one talkes about ninjas getting rigs cheaper. What a LOL. Do you really thing that mission runners would complain about ninja salvagers all the time when they are not willing to salvage their stuff? Actually most of them salvage their stuff because its worth the effort. And ninjas salvage selectively on mission runners they expect high valuable salvage - exactly this ones are the players who would salvage their missions or trade the wrecks to friends if they actually dont care about. Actually, the only ones who complain are the mission runners who do want to salvage. Those who don't mostly don't care. Ninjas do make rigs cheaper on the market. The increase the supply of raw materials, which means that they must be reducing price. As has been said time and time again by me, others and even by CCP, the salvage does not belong to the mission runnner - it's not "their stuff"
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.04.23 17:48:00 - [66] Quote: What part of CCP's stance of salvaging is 'not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding' don't you understand? Nice that you mention that. But actually: Has this something to do with my post? I am really unable to see a relation. Yes you are right, your aspect is an argument why ninja salvaging is legitim but actually you talk about apples while im talking about something else. Quote: A PvP player in a PvE ship will not "knock out" a suitable prepared "salvage flip" (as I shall refer to the tactic of using salvaging as a way to get aggro, just like can flipping). I'd suggest that such a player would be more likely to leave the salvage to the salvager as he would know how vulnerable his PvE ship was to such traps. Absolutly right, but why do you think that i meant that the PvE shil is actually PvE fitted? When its highly expectable that ninjas will trap mission runners, PVP players will start preparing their traps as well. Its just the issue that currently its not sensefull to prepare a trap because its a rather low chance that a ninja will try to kill the mission runner with the current mechanic ;o) Things would change if ninjas true purpose switches to an engagement. Why should the aggressor be the only one without a pvp fitted ship at station jumping the mission runner after aggression? A mission runner got a tough tank? Why should the ninja be the only one calling backup in after agression? PVP players try to trap people on a daily base - give them a new way to trap people and they will try it. Quote: Ninjas do make rigs cheaper on the market. The increase the supply of raw materials, which means that they must be reducing price. Can you prove that speculation? I mean can you really prove that the amount of "yet salvaged stuff" impacts the market because the mission runners would not salvage that? I really doubt that.

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