Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |

Caldari 5
Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 19:09:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Hariya
What part of Quote: And oh, don't run missions in high sec if you can't handle high sec having disadvantages over low sec. Risk vs reward.
you had problems understanding?
Low Sec = Higher Risk Low Sec Reward = High Sec Reward
So as far as risk vs reward goes, its still unbalanced, doing missions in LS should give Higher rewards than HS, but it doesn't so nobody runs missions there, too many pirates(high risk) |

Robert Caldera
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 19:27:00 -
[32]
but you could shoot salvagers in your missions. |

Caldari 5
Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 19:34:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Robert Caldera but you could shoot salvagers in your missions.
Still has the Sec Hit on it, it's not till you are in 0.0 that there is no sec hit for shooting salvagers.
|

Robert Caldera
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 19:40:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/04/2009 19:40:05 so what are you suggesting??? The salvage isnt meant to be mission reward, why protect it in some way from salvagers if you arent willing to shoot them?? |

Caldari 5
Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 19:45:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/04/2009 19:40:25 so what are you suggesting??? The salvage isnt meant to be mission reward, why protect it in some way from salvagers if you arent willing to shoot them on your own??
Flag/Remove the Sec hit for shooting them and they WILL be shot just as quick as any JetCan Tipping Ore Thief.
|

Robert Caldera
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 19:52:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/04/2009 19:52:45 this would effectively reserve wrecks for mission runners, exactly what shall not happen, like I said, wrecks arent a part of mission rewards, any measure for protecting them from salvagers would preserve them for mission runners and make them so to a part of the mission reward.
|

Caldari 5
Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 19:57:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/04/2009 19:52:45 this would effectively reserve wrecks for mission runners, exactly what shall not happen, like I said, wrecks arent a part of mission rewards, any measure for protecting them from salvagers would preserve them for mission runners and make them so to a part of the mission reward.
Please re-read all of my Posts in this thread, It's not the salvaging that I have the issue with, it's the salvaging in an active mission that I have a problem with. If the mission is handed in and the gates despawn it's open season on the salvage, until that point however it is mission space and thus the mission runners.
|

Hariya
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 20:02:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Caldari 5 it's the salvaging in an active mission that I have a problem with
Then you're doing several things worth. It is easy to cause a ninja salvager to lose his ship.
|

Robert Caldera
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 20:08:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Caldari 5 Please re-read all of my Posts in this thread, It's not the salvaging that I have the issue with, it's the salvaging in an active mission that I have a problem with. If the mission is handed in and the gates despawn it's open season on the salvage, until that point however it is mission space and thus the mission runners.
Why? WHHYYYYYY????? Why the hell should the mission space be protected from other people??? Its not a WoW instance!
|

Dharh
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 20:14:00 -
[40]
Frankly, non-secure cans shouldn't flag looters unless the owner is within 5km of the can at the time it gets pillaged and only in CONCORD space, after you have filed a report to the police, in triplicate form.
|

Caldari 5
Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 20:28:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Robert Caldera Its not a WoW instance!
Having not played WoW, I have no idea what this section means. |

Hariya
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 20:29:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Caldari 5
Originally by: Robert Caldera Its not a WoW instance!
Having not played WoW, I have no idea what this section means.
Perhaps you are playing the wrong game then  |

Caldari 5
Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 20:37:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Robert Caldera Why? WHHYYYYYY????? Why the hell should the mission space be protected from other people???
When you are doing a mission you are doing it on behalf of the Faction's Police/Controlling bodies. Now IRL Police cordon of an area when they are doing something major(arrest/accident/murder scene/etc), so no non-police personal are allowed near the scene of the incident. How is this different from the mission runner being able to lock the gate so nobody outside his squad can access it? |

Caldari 5
Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 20:41:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Hariya
Originally by: Caldari 5
Originally by: Robert Caldera Its not a WoW instance!
Having not played WoW, I have no idea what this section means.
Perhaps you are playing the wrong game then 
Pansy looking Elves and fantasy setting Axes and such are not my area of interest. I watch Stargate, Battlestar Galactica and Eureka, not Robinhood and <insert other fantasy BS Show here>
|

Lear Hepburn
Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 20:53:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 21/04/2009 20:54:22
Originally by: Caldari 5 Please re-read all of my Posts in this thread, It's not the salvaging that I have the issue with, it's the salvaging in an active mission that I have a problem with. If the mission is handed in and the gates despawn it's open season on the salvage, until that point however it is mission space and thus the mission runners.
Two points: 1. How are ninja salvagers to find the completed mission space if there are no ships there, only unscannable wrecks? 2. Mission runners can sweep up a mission's wrecks before handing in the mission within time limits. I've done it plenty myself. Your proposed solution effectively reserves the wrecks for the mission runner until he decides he doesn't want them by handing in the mission. This is not an acceptable solution as it effectively adds wrecks to mission rewards, which is not their purpose.
There is no problem with salvaging an active mission. The salvager is taking more risk as the mission runner could cause the mission NPCs to attack him. |

Dharh
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 20:57:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Caldari 5
Originally by: Robert Caldera Why? WHHYYYYYY????? Why the hell should the mission space be protected from other people???
When you are doing a mission you are doing it on behalf of the Faction's Police/Controlling bodies. Now IRL Police cordon of an area when they are doing something major(arrest/accident/murder scene/etc), so no non-police personal are allowed near the scene of the incident. How is this different from the mission runner being able to lock the gate so nobody outside his squad can access it?
This is a game in space. Areas of space that large aren't cordoned off. The gates are there only to get you to the next spot like a bookmark does. Its not a pocket of space that exists outside of the galaxy. If you show up on the scanner you're fair game.
CONCORD frowns on certain actions like stealing, killing, etc. But not salvaging what are essentially useless wrecks. |

Tigman II
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 21:05:00 -
[47]
I personally find the current rules very acceptable. Salvaging differs a lot from looting when it comes to its own mechanics so even the rules should be different. The only way I can see making some missioners happy is to make it harder for people to track down missions. Usually ppl will scan within 2-4 au of a planet/object so if u make spawn points harder to track down the chances are lot less for ninjas to find these places. |

Caldari 5
Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 21:16:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Lear Hepburn Two points: 1. How are ninja salvagers to find the completed mission space if there are no ships there, only unscannable wrecks? 2. Mission runners can sweep up a mission's wrecks before handing in the mission within time limits. I've done it plenty myself. Your proposed solution effectively reserves the wrecks for the mission runner until he decides he doesn't want them by handing in the mission. This is not an acceptable solution as it effectively adds wrecks to mission rewards, which is not their purpose.
1. Having not ever tried to scan down a wreck I didn't know that they were not scannable, I thought that they were, maybe this is something that can be looked at.
2. See my response to point 1.
Quote: There is no problem with salvaging an active mission. The salvager is taking more risk as the mission runner could cause the mission NPCs to attack him.
How is the salvager at risk? The mission runner has all the agro. Even warping out of the mission after agroing the entire room doesn't cause issue to the salvager, as they are typically in a smaller ship to the mission runner and can align and get out before the agro switches. (mission runner probably in a BS, and the salvager in a Destroyer) |

Robert Caldera
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 21:28:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/04/2009 19:52:45 this would effectively reserve wrecks for mission runners, exactly what shall not happen, like I said, wrecks arent a part of mission rewards, any measure for protecting them from salvagers would preserve them for mission runners and make them so to a part of the mission reward.
locking gates reserves wrecks for the mission runner. Is it that hard to understand? |

Lear Hepburn
Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 21:29:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Caldari 5 1. Having not ever tried to scan down a wreck I didn't know that they were not scannable, I thought that they were, maybe this is something that can be looked at.
2. See my response to point 1.
Even if wrecks were scannable they would still be at the mercy of the mission runner as, under your plan, only he can open up gates, leaving whole rooms of wrecks for him to salvage at leisure.
Quote: How is the salvager at risk? The mission runner has all the agro. Even warping out of the mission after agroing the entire room doesn't cause issue to the salvager, as they are typically in a smaller ship to the mission runner and can align and get out before the agro switches. (mission runner probably in a BS, and the salvager in a Destroyer)
It is quite possible to cause the rats to aggro on the salvager. If the salvager gets out of there then unless he's bookmarked he's got to scan down the mission again - quite an inconvenience.
That said, I'm not entirely certain what your beef with close-by cleanup crews actually is. If you're happy to let them salvage "your" wrecks then why can't they salvage the same room you're in? |

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 21:32:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/04/2009 19:52:45 this would effectively reserve wrecks for mission runners, exactly what shall not happen, like I said, wrecks arent a part of mission rewards, any measure for protecting them from salvagers would preserve them for mission runners and make them so to a part of the mission reward.
locking gates reserves wrecks for the mission runner. Is it that hard to understand?
It would also reserve the rats, the asteroids, and all the other items within that deadspace pocket for the mission runner. At which point, the idea of non-instanced gameplay is flown from EvE.
If you don't want to play in a game world that is seamlessly open and free, EvE is not the game for you. Try one of the more traditional MMO's where the developers go out of their way to protect you from yourself and other players. EvE makes an attempt, at least, to provide a seamless universe.
Why is it so difficult to comprehend that this would betray one of the founding principles of what makes EvE successful? |

Caldari 5
Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 22:00:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Lear Hepburn That said, I'm not entirely certain what your beef with close-by cleanup crews actually is. If you're happy to let them salvage "your" wrecks then why can't they salvage the same room you're in?
They are not in fleet and thus don't know when tank is broken and to get the **** out of the mission I have lost 2 ships due to ****tard salvagers preventing me aligning to get out of the mission. |

Robert Caldera
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 22:17:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/04/2009 22:18:55
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
It would also reserve the rats, the asteroids, and all the other items within that deadspace pocket for the mission runner. At which point, the idea of non-instanced gameplay is flown from EvE.
If you don't want to play in a game world that is seamlessly open and free, EvE is not the game for you. Try one of the more traditional MMO's where the developers go out of their way to protect you from yourself and other players. EvE makes an attempt, at least, to provide a seamless universe.
Why is it so difficult to comprehend that this would betray one of the founding principles of what makes EvE successful?
why are you quoting me in your post?? I am not requesting gate locks and such cr*p.
Originally by: Caldari 5 They are not in fleet and thus don't know when tank is broken and to get the **** out of the mission I have lost 2 ships due to ****tard salvagers preventing me aligning to get out of the mission.
what a silly argument. 1) has nothing to do with the topic 2) sounds quite costructed, did them bump you out of alignment or what way could they prevent you from warping??
|

Lear Hepburn
Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 22:18:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Caldari 5
Originally by: Lear Hepburn That said, I'm not entirely certain what your beef with close-by cleanup crews actually is. If you're happy to let them salvage "your" wrecks then why can't they salvage the same room you're in?
They are not in fleet and thus don't know when tank is broken and to get the **** out of the mission I have lost 2 ships due to ****tard salvagers preventing me aligning to get out of the mission.
So you want an MMO without other people interfering? Methinks you are in the wrong place.
Seriously, if the only reason you want people out of your mission space is because they screw with your plans then you need to go to WoW. That is life in Eve I'm afraid - like it or leave it.
|

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 22:18:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Caldari 5
Originally by: Lear Hepburn That said, I'm not entirely certain what your beef with close-by cleanup crews actually is. If you're happy to let them salvage "your" wrecks then why can't they salvage the same room you're in?
They are not in fleet and thus don't know when tank is broken and to get the **** out of the mission I have lost 2 ships due to ****tard salvagers preventing me aligning to get out of the mission.
Have you thought about inviting them into your fleet?
They could save a lot of time spent probing and searching, and you could save a lot of the hassle that you mentioned. All it takes is to broach a conversation other than explicatives in local ...
Originally by: 5pinDizzy Troll Score-o-Meter --------Failure----------|||-----------Succes------- 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1--0--1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10
|

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 23:07:00 -
[56]
Quote: They are not in fleet and thus don't know when tank is broken and to get the **** out of the mission I have lost 2 ships due to ****tard salvagers preventing me aligning to get out of the mission.
In my experience, ninjasalvagers aren't going to go out of their way to **** you over unless you give them a reason to. The most they might do is nab the mission reward and charge you a few mil for its safe return.
It's when the MRs start *****ing that their overpaid, overpowered ISK printing machine is slightly less profitable because of us evil bottomfeeding s****that we start doing stuff like that
Anyway, as stated by the GMs and CCP: Salvage is not yours. Salvaging is a separate profession for people who like to go around and look for wrecks to salvage. Salvage, unlike missioning, is competitive and if you get to the wrecks late, tough ****, you lose. |

Kel Nissa
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 23:17:00 -
[57]
Actually some people got some things wrong ...
For example everytime when someone talks about ninja salvaging someone responds that mission runners should be lucky that it does not trigger because otherwise they will die when they try to fight back. But the truth is that if ninja salvagers would actually want to fight back they would loot to flag themself as legitim target for this purpose. Its just that they dont do it and as such it seems like your argumentation is not to well.
Another thing wich is also potentially wrong is to think that god-like CCP does not make any failures. In fact they are just normal people and due to some constraints we are not aware of they simply do some things wrong by purpose. For example not everyone is aware of the fact that whenever a foreign person reps yourself in highsec you can give the friendly repper a concord-death whenever you want. Actually its a weird bug which is a side effect of the "error-solution" to fix the gank+rep problematik. Bug hunters will tell you that its a feature by purpose but in reality its just a weird side effect which can not be easily fixed.
Somehow im getting sad. Always the same flawed arguments when it comes to the ninja-salvaging topic.
The reality is that salvaging mechanic is totally broken. I am not able to tell you if its by purpose or as side effect which can not be easily fixed because of lacking ressources. But for example when salvaging is really meant as "profession" shoulnt it be possible to scan down salvage and not only the mission runners who might be actually producing them? Maybe its just a feature which was introduced in this way to actually generate this sort of conflict. Who knows.
And by the way: im happy that so many people are arguing in favor of the current salvaging mechanic. Without this sort of comments the issue would not be recognized as real issue. (ECM mechanic changed a while ago - wasnt ECM one of the whine topic nr 1 before this happened?)
Probably i should start ninja salving by myself. When the trouble increases the chance to a solution will also increase. Hmm reminds me that i still need to find a gankable victim to remind people of the rep-feature oddness. |

Lear Hepburn
Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 16:06:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Kel Nissa Actually some people got some things wrong ...
For example everytime when someone talks about ninja salvaging someone responds that mission runners should be lucky that it does not trigger because otherwise they will die when they try to fight back. But the truth is that if ninja salvagers would actually want to fight back they would loot to flag themself as legitim target for this purpose. Its just that they dont do it and as such it seems like your argumentation is not to well.
True, but opening up the mechanic to flagging would make ninja salvaging another form of can flipping. Do you really want your expensive faction-fitted PvE ship open to the attentions of PvP fitted ships? Currently ninja salvagers do not want to fight back as this is how the mechanic works - change the mechanic and people will adapt.
Quote: Another thing wich is also potentially wrong is to think that god-like CCP does not make any failures. In fact they are just normal people and due to some constraints we are not aware of they simply do some things wrong by purpose. For example not everyone is aware of the fact that whenever a foreign person reps yourself in highsec you can give the friendly repper a concord-death whenever you want. Actually its a weird bug which is a side effect of the "error-solution" to fix the gank+rep problematik. Bug hunters will tell you that its a feature by purpose but in reality its just a weird side effect which can not be easily fixed.
Of course CCP make mistakes, but this has been mentioned by them time and time again as a feature. Salvaging is a profession, whether you like it or not.
Quote: Somehow im getting sad. Always the same flawed arguments when it comes to the ninja-salvaging topic.
The reality is that salvaging mechanic is totally broken. I am not able to tell you if its by purpose or as side effect which can not be easily fixed because of lacking ressources. But for example when salvaging is really meant as "profession" shoulnt it be possible to scan down salvage and not only the mission runners who might be actually producing them? Maybe its just a feature which was introduced in this way to actually generate this sort of conflict. Who knows.
I agree that salvage should be scannable.
Quote: And by the way: im happy that so many people are arguing in favor of the current salvaging mechanic. Without this sort of comments the issue would not be recognized as real issue. (ECM mechanic changed a while ago - wasnt ECM one of the whine topic nr 1 before this happened?)
Probably i should start ninja salving by myself. When the trouble increases the chance to a solution will also increase. Hmm reminds me that i still need to find a gankable victim to remind people of the rep-feature oddness.
Maybe you should. Someone has said before that they think that more ninja salvagers are generated due to threads like these. The fact is, though, that a balance will be reached. X wrecks are produced, so X wrecks will be salvagable by Y salvagers. If <X wrecks are produced then Y salvagers can no lnger be supported, pushing would-be salvagers into other professions. |

Robert Caldera
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 16:12:00 -
[59]
mhh maybe the expectation of having the wrecks to salvage after a mission and hence considering them as a part of the reward will disappear as soon as enough salvagers would salvage every single damn mission done in the hubs so the thinking of salvagers disappera as well some day?? |

Hariya
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 17:29:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Robert Caldera mhh maybe the expectation of having the wrecks to salvage after a mission and hence considering them as a part of the reward will disappear as soon as enough salvagers would salvage every single damn mission done in the hubs so the thinking of salvagers disappera as well some day??
Aye. I once proposed that the wrecks should last for only 5 minutes. It would practically remove ninja salvaging entirely and promote team work in running missions. People would contract newbies into salvage and split the wealth etc. It would make nice time for many people waiting for their ie. learning skills to finish.
Also keep in mind that level 4s were already intended to be non-soloable. The real solution to the whole issue is to make the points of the "I want it all without any effort of actually playing the game" idiots just plain moot by making the game how it really should be. Multi player game. |
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |