EVE Search - Still Trying To Figure This Trade Thing Out.

All Channels

Market Discussions

Still Trying To Figure This Trade Thing Out.

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Fzhal Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.04.28 14:20:00 - [1] Now just to clarify I'm not here to beg for people to tell me how to trade or give me uber tips on trading. I'm just here to report my progress and thoughts after a week of "attempted" trading. As always criticism, both constructive and otherwise, is always welcome. So this character is many years old and still hadn't started trading. Well now I'm interested in learning and here are my thoughts and lessons. First of all the trade hubs scare me. I have 6,400 in trade skills and think with those skills Jita would eat me alive. Am I wrong? So I have started at a mission hub. I did some research and found a few meta 4's that were being bought for less than half what they sell for. In addition there are few orders in total. I had about 600 mil sitting around doing nothing so I decided to jump in with 100 mil, nothing I'd miss. I outbid the current orders by 10%. In addition I wanted to test the waters so I only put buy orders for 5 units each. This turned out to be smart I think. Only 3 orders of the 11 I put up have completed. And that is only because I knew it would only take a few hours due to high volume in the mission hub. Here is what happened to the other orders. Within a day the buy orders exploded on the other items. What was once 2 buy orders exploded into 6-12 buy orders. At first look I was daunted. Why all of a sudden did lots of people home in on what I had found? So I let my orders sit there and decided I'd come back the next day. In that time I realised something. Maybe I was still dealing with 2 buyers? I took a look back at the amount of units being bought in each order and they were between 1-5. So. . . Someone must be trying to scare me out of the market. . . At least that is what I think. I am not sure but I have the fear that the other buyer or buyers might raise the prices to the fact that no one can make any money. This hasn't happened but I think it might. What can I do in this situation? I'm not giving up, that is for sure. On a positive note the orders that did complete before anyone could react I doubled or tripled my money. However in such small quantities I only made like 10 mil ISK an hour for my time invested. As a veteran mission runner it isn't that much. I know I am going to figure it out eventually, because I'm not giving up, but I am just sharing my experience with the MD community.
Fzhal Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.04.28 16:57:00 - [2] Yeah I have decided to let them sit there for a while. I think eventually the orders will be filled but in the mean time that doesn't make me any money. Not that I mind because I'm just getting my feet wet. I don't have the time to spend adjusting market orders. I'd rather spend an hour or less every few days or week and make some extra ISK. That is at least until I get the feel for the market. Thanks for the responses too.
Fzhal Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.04.29 13:57:00 - [3] Well I'm beginning to wonder if it is possible to make money as a part time trader. It seems that I get .01 ISK'd very frequently. The only time my orders actually work is between my updates and when the others 1-Up me. And I'm not even in Jita. Although I have had some ideas of how to diversify so I'll be trying that starting tonight or so. Upon reflection I don't see how investing a billion would make a difference with these Meta 4 items. Even if you stand to make 4% there will always be someone who is willing to make 3% so you don't make any money. In trade hubs I don't see how a casual trader can make good ISK. Although I know what most are about to say. I've yet to find my niche. Which I'd agree. I still at this point think that it'd be pretty tough to make much ISK being a part time trader.
Fzhal Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.04.30 13:15:00 - [4] Well, another day another update. I just did the math and it seems that I have made 100 million since I started on the 23rd. So in one week I made 100 mil off of 90 million. So I am happy with this. I honestly thought it was a lot less but it adds up in such small amounts it is hard to notice. However I am a golem wielding mission runner so that isn't much to me. But trading is definately worth it for anyone who doesn't mission. Still I will continue on and try to find my niche. I am seriously considering leaving small ticket items alone. With the amount of effort it requires to update the .01 iskers it really isn't worth my time for 2 mil every 3 days. I am starting to identify the high ticket items and get into those that can make me 2-4 million per unit. Last night I took my alt around the empires to look at the non mission/trade hubs. I found that these were the 3'rd level mission hubs. And to be honest it didn't seem worth my time. Sure there were a few items that I could buy and markup by a lot, but they were being sold in such LOW quantity that it really didn't seem worth it. 2-3 items a day being sold AND there was 2-3 people competing on the prices already. I think I might have identified a secondary LvL 4 mission hub and will check that out tonight. I am hopeful. I have identified a few things worth hauling that will give a 10% profit and a decent turnover. My qualms about it are that I would have to cart 1 Billion in merchandise to make 100mil. This would take about an hour a night of hauling but it could be done safely with constant warp to zero. Still debating on whether I want to do this.
Fzhal Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.01 14:07:00 - [5] Originally by: Grozen Until you've started manipulation you've not seen the full beaty of the eve market, also if you wanna be profitable be ready for 0.01 war with dozens of market orders.If an item yields you 5m per 10min you'd want to make 2-3 market orders to fight for it. Please forgive my ignorance but what is the benefit of having more than one market order for the same item? I have a new tip for all the new traders out there. You don't have to be the top dog in the trading windows. There is always going to be some mission runner who puts a few items up at a low price, just to get rid of them fast for a few extra ISK. Look at the average turnover rate in the graph. If you think the number is high enough then just set your preferred price. Those few modules will sell quickly and then you'll be the next one on the list to be bought from. This little tidbit has saved me tens of millions in just a week. Yeah last night I started on a few trade skills and am working towards being able to modify orders while missioning. It is amazing that people in the mission hub I'm at are putting out buy orders that are higher than the selling price in Jita a few jumps away. I guess because they are thinking they will sell them for the mission hub's elevated prices. But still it is odd because not many units are sold at those prices. So how do you do the long term thing without .01 isking? Just set a large buy order where you will make 5%-10% and let it sit there? Then you just just make a lot of them all over and wait?
Fzhal Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.19 15:22:00 - [6] UPDATE: So it has been about 3 weeks since I began my journey into the underbelly of the Meta 4 market. Overall it has been just OK. I have an alt at a different location because I was beginning to run out of meta 4 modules to invest in. I think I may send my other alt to do the same thing. At the moment I'm investing about 300-450 million per character and making about 20-30 million each day per character. So I guess that would be a little less than 10%. To get this I am required to update all my orders at least 3 times per day. Before I leave for work in the morning, when I get home, and before I go to bed at night. My thoughts currently are that this isn't the market for me. I'm making money, but not enough. I need to find a market that allows me to invest 1 billion, update 3 times daily, and still make 4% proffit or more. At this point I am thinking of just selling everything off and just going down the market list, excluding meta 4's and likely ship modules. I tried buying and selling ships but that turned out to be a dead market. Maybe I'll try going down the market groups one week at a time. I might even try minerals and implants. I'm not affraid to lose money learning, but I don't think that will happen as I am the careful type. Despite this I am unsatisfied because I have about 650 million sitting around doing nothing at the moment. I'm wary of getting into the mineral market because I don't know much about it. I'm also wary of carting around large amounts of ISK so I'm not sure about Implants either. So apparrently I haven't found my niche yet, but I have no doubt I will. Overall I have learned a bit from my 3 weeks so far. But I am ready to move on to greener pastures.
Fzhal Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.19 17:19:00 - [7] Hmm, I just thought about my market problems with the people that undercut my sell orders. I realize I can't control the amount of modules that mission runners sell. But I can control the number of modules available for purchase by the mission runners. Now I'm just brainstorming here but it isn't a new idea. Dangerous indeed though. Sellers can only undercut my sell orders if they have the stock to sell. If I were to buy all of thier modules then I could relist them much higher to make up the cost. Now this would work well if I could sell the marked up items before someone lists new modules at a lower price. Then if I wanted to deter the .01 iskers I could set a "bait" sell order a good bit lower. They undercut me by .01 isk and I buy off the modules that they have sold at my lowball "bait" price. Now to me this only seems viable in the short term in a very specific situation. A situation where the demand is greater than the supply. Otherwise the undercutters will overwhelm your orders because there is too much stock incoming. I think this strategy could especially work out in 0.0. . . Hmmm. Please let me know if I'm talking crazy.
Fzhal Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.21 14:40:00 - [8] Originally by: Rudy Gnarl Sounds like you are doing really good. In the few weeks you have been trading you have made some really good observations. Here is a post I wrote last week Slow-Sell System I don't know if this post will help but there might be some things in there that could help you flush out your niche. Sounds like you are pretty set on Meta 4, though. I tend to stick with Meta 3 and 2, as there is a lot less competition and I can leave orders up without adjusting them much. I do some trading in Tech II when I have time to bust my ass and hawk my orders. The best of luck to you - eventually I plan to get involved in some higher level trading so I will stay posted as to your success and methods. That was a good read. I've been thinking about doing the slow sell too. This is a great resource and gives me the confidence to give it a try. I worry about meta 2-3 items because I have no idea of how many consumers purchase these as opposed to just sell them to be recycled. My recycling is nonexistent so I don't want to lose my shirt on that venture. Is there anywhere that I can find recycle equivalents in a remotely easy to use format? Also as an aside I can now say that I am not a lemming and have likely ****ed off another trader. The item normally was bought for 900k and sold for 1.8m. Apparently someone wanted me out of the market and set a buy order for 100 units at 1.5 million. As soon as I saw this I left my 900k buy order alone. It served as a reminder to check and see if the guy had dropped his high buy order. After 5 days, including a weekend, he still hadn't dropped it. Not only that, but he was also cornering the market and raising sell prices up to 2.3m. Then I decided to do something about it. Went to a couple other regions and set buy orders at 700k to get some stock. In two days I had enough. Gathering from all the stations took longer than I liked, but luckily I had the spare time that day. Back in the hub I set my sell orders for 2m, then 1.8 and finally 1.4 the next day. My stock was enough to last a week. The trader soon after dropped his 1.5m buy order down to 900k and we started the .01 isk game again. He didn't lose much money but at least he was put in his place.
Fzhal Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.28 14:05:00 - [9] Well it has been a month since I began my market journey. Let me tell you how I've done. I've Done Great! My main character started on the 27th of last month with 600mil invested. 10 days later I had made 350mil profit. This profit was given to an alt to operate in a trade hub on the 8th, not jita. In 20 days my alt made 348mil off of that. On the 24th my main had made another 350mil and gave it to the other alt, another non-jita hub. Today, four days later, that alt has profitted 64 million. Now for my profit after a month. 1.3 Billion Remember that I didn't have alts reselling the whole month. If I were to extrapolate what I'll make next month doing the same thing. 1.85-2.0 Billion Now lets put that into play hours. I spent about 4 hours online updating orders for the month. If that were put into Level 4 mission terms. At 20mil an hour it would take 100 hours of gameplay to equal 2 Billion ISK. Now I'm not going to tell you my secrets because. . . well you've already read them in this forum. Just take an hour or more and pour through the market tabs. Take notes in a spreadsheet of the more profitable modules. Look mostly at the graph tab and not the current sales tab. Make sure to include these easy things: average daily low price, avg high price, avg movement per day. THEN add the average sell price in Jita, which is your base comparison. The reason I add the Jita prices is because I am a cautious investor. I like to have a fallback plan. Prices can be inflated by other players and you need to know when to stop buying. Plus if you accumulate a stockpile you can easily take it to jita and make some money off of it. Sometimes others will try to scare you out of the market for an item by making prices so low they make barely any profit. The best thing to do here is LAUGH. Be patient. Leave an order there so you know to check on that item. The price will go back to normal within 1-2 weeks. During that time you have 2 choices. A) If you can find a large quantity for that item elsewhere at a slightly lower price, get them. Then sell some to the buyer and put a large quantity on the market for lower. You can figure out what this means for the other guy. B) Just wait. Come back later. Just a few days ago I noticed I had too much money sitting in my bank so I decided to give the "Slow Sell" thing a chance. I found some meta 3-4 items and set large quantity buy prices region wide for 10% of the sell price in a remote region. I did this 5 days ago and so far only about 1-2% of the orders have been filled. I think I might update them every week or so and see what happens. Correct me if I'm wrong, but once I've bought only 10-15% of those orders, the rest will be profit? Well, that has bee another long rambling. I am prone to them. Hopefully there are some gems in there for new people. That is what I was going for. Thanks for reading.
Fzhal Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.28 15:32:00 - [10] Originally by: Romanov DeBeers I think now is the time to change the thread title. Title changed.
Fzhal Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.28 19:54:00 - [11] Edited by: Fzhal on 28/05/2009 19:55:20 Edited by: Fzhal on 28/05/2009 19:54:51 The reason I am trying out the slow sell is because I've found that I don't need more than 700 million per character. However the slow sell method doesn't really remedy this though because I buy large quantities for so cheap. I only invested 100mil in one region on like 30 items. But if they were all to complete it would earn me over 700 million. But god I dread the day when I have to go pick all of that stuff up! The fact that I can't invest all of my wealth with the items I'm reselling tells me that I need to diversify. But at this point I'm at a loss. I'm thinking that the next level of trading is going to be much more math on my part. Currently I can eyeball profits but if it is anywhere near close I don't invest. I guess when I get a billion sitting in my wallet I'll try to figure it out. I guess that gives me about 2 weeks to figure out how to invest Billions in the market. Man I dislike tedious math. I'm thinking about investing in EMMA. That program is talked about enough for me to give it a whirl. Currently I'm just using EveHQ, and not very well at that.
Fzhal Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.29 13:09:00 - [12] Well it has happened AGAIN! A nagging pain at the most. But still an inconvenience. On one of my characters, supply has exceeded demand and I'm sitting on 500 million worth of product that isn't moving :( At least I always make sure that I'm buy at prices where I can take to Jita and sell for half the profit there. I've had to do this once before. Then again on my other two characters there is the opposite problem. Demand is good buy it is hard to keep the supply up with all the competition.
Fzhal Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.06.01 20:22:00 - [13] I am strongly considering selling off my mission ship. Why use my online time to do boring crap when I can make money while offline? Time to go have fun in the galaxy! I just realized that if I were to sell my mission ship and all my inventory I'd have over 4 billion ISK. I love trading! Screw the mission system! UPDATE MATERIAL: Well I've also noticed an astounding difference in sell price fluctuations. Earlier this week I was lucky to be making 35% profit on a few items. Then at other parts of the week I was making 100% profits due to an empty market. I've thought about building up an inventory of the items but am not on consistenly enough to take advantage of these circumstances that last half a day. Man I wish I could though because it is great ISK.
Fzhal Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.06.18 16:48:00 - [14] Well I'm back for another update. No I haven't tried any market manipulation. I haven't had the time to monitor the markets closely enough to do this. Updated Trading Amounts Invested 600mil on 4/22 Inventory + Cash = 3 Billion on 6/18 OBSERVATION: I noticed about a month ago that competition in many markets have become rediculous. Margins are stupidly low on most of the meta 4 items. This has persisted and I have a guess at what has caused this. It is those meddlesome kids! Summer has started and I think this is effecting the market. That is my only explanation for the increase of competition. On another note I've gotten into resale of implants. I have to say that it is best to have the "Margin Trading" skill for this. Implants will drastically reduce your ability to diversify otherwise. The movement on these items isn't great but waiting and updating is always worth it. Well that is all I came to report. PS do you agree with the assertion of kids on summer break affecting prices in non-jita?

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.