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Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
139
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
Eve is approximately 100 light years across total. For a Dreadnaught/Capital fleet of a thousand to cross this distance would take less than 11 jumps.
To cross from one end of Eve to the other.
Now, I am sure there are a few limiting factors like capacitor recharge, system loading time, and other things. But it is possible to go from one end of Eve to the other in less time than it takes a frigate to make 15 jumps and cross a part.. a PART... of High Sec.
Needless to say, this is broken fast.
It also adds risk/reward by allowing capital fleets to bypass all chock points, paths, and appear where-ever they want in their destination system.
But it also is a great game mechanic because it "scales well". And by that I mean it grow linearly in power with the number of users. That is it is approximately 10 times more powerful for a 100 person alliance than a 10. Why?
Because the number of places you can go it dependent on Cyno alts in the system or near the system. More players, more logged out cyno alts EVERYWHER. And it only takes one to go to a system.
This is why that Goon FC had his meltdown in Jita. Yes yes he is a lousy stupid player with no sense. But he doesn't need sense when he can get himself in trouble anywhere in the galaxy except High Sec and scream "CYNO! CYNO!" and get a 100+ ship zerg to bail him out.
So, how many serious PvPers have quit when they realized that any Goon or PL important enough to be able to scream "CYNO CYNO!" anywhere except High Sec is effectively untouchable?
This is also why Goons hate High Sec. And wormhole space. Don't think they don't. The safe word doesn't work.
But really, that's the way it works in real life to. If you are the minion of a great power, you just shake your but at the locals and they have to put up with it.
Or they kill you and your government runs off.
But, thanks to the design of the jump drive, we can all enjoy 1,000 man blobs that can be in any non-high sec system in Eve in under 15 minutes.
And reasonably, any non-High sec system in under 10 minutes if they are at all properly positioned.
But that makes sense. I've never heard of Imperial Overstretch or "only controls the ground upon which they stand". Eve is simply trying to mimic ancient and modern warfare by allowing armies to travel anywhere instantly.
The ability to go anywhere instantly with the most powerful ships in the game is necessary from a game balance perspective.
After all, a five minute cooldown per jump would lead to... I don't know, what would it lead to?, Goons and PL having to use actual tactics? |
Contagion
Chaotic dynamics
0
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Posted - 2012.05.08 21:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
I completely agree. I've been in Eve since beta and 0.0 used to be much more exciting because to get your goods out you had to launch a convoy and protect it, and fly your goods out. Not a single jump, or perhaps 2 and your safely in high-sec.
Jump drives have ruined 0.0 |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1443
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
Actually I think that it should be the other way around, let ALL ships dial in system to system warps, the range of which depending on the usual factors (power, skills, rigs, implants, etc) and get rid of these crap gate mechanics entirely.
It would be the end of the gate camps and the "great wall of carebear" that locks down high sec into a carebear haven - and also locks down 0.0 into another carebear haven.
The gate camp is gone, replaced by the combat patrol. Warp bubbles become rare, replaced by the combat probe, and blobs will be replaced by small and medium gangs. Let the 0.0 overlords whose systems are deserted for weeks on end (I know, I trespass there often) actually have to patrol, watch, and defend "their" systems instead of lording it up from their thrones while renters sit on gank pipelines.
Oh to think of the opportunities and what it would unleash.... |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
1620
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
"Choke" points...not "chock" points. I stopped reading there but I really don't need to read any further to know I agree with you. Old hat is old.
EDIT: Went and read the rest of it...yup...I agree. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1391
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
"Let's make going anywhere in 0.0 a royal pain in the ass that involves hundreds of gates or dozens and dozens of short jumps, consuming fuel and time!"
Making a game more tedious makes it less fun. People log in to shoot each other or do whatever it is they enjoy, not spend multiple days moving assets for one day's worth of fun.
Remember, this is a game, not a job. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
140
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:"Let's make going anywhere in 0.0 a royal pain in the ass that involves hundreds of gates or dozens and dozens of short jumps, consuming fuel and time!"
Making a game more tedious makes it less fun. People log in to shoot each other or do whatever it is they enjoy, not spend multiple days moving assets for one group of fights.
I especially enjoy you being able to drop 1000 man blobs on me anywhere in Eve in under 10 minutes.
Cause if it takes you longer than ten minutes to get anywhere in Eve, then that is to long.
Many people operating in High Sec are wondering if you are high right now. |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
366
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
The biggest problem is that the usage of jump mechanics is just way too cheap. It's affordable for player-level usage, even for for cheap KM-whoring hotdrops, while it should be so expensive it's only viable for corp or even alliance-level strategic goals like saving a vital POS, getting fuel past a blockade, or countering a nasty roaming fleet in home territory. Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
140
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Actually I think that it should be the other way around, let ALL ships dial in system to system warps, the range of which depending on the usual factors (power, skills, rigs, implants, etc) and get rid of these crap gate mechanics entirely.
It would be the end of the gate camps and the "great wall of carebear" that locks down high sec into a carebear haven - and also locks down 0.0 into another carebear haven.
The gate camp is gone, replaced by the combat patrol. Warp bubbles become rare, replaced by the combat probe, and blobs will be replaced by small and medium gangs. Let the 0.0 overlords whose systems are deserted for weeks on end (I know, I trespass there often) actually have to patrol, watch, and defend "their" systems instead of lording it up from their thrones while renters sit on gank pipelines.
Oh to think of the opportunities and what it would unleash....
While I can see some problems just doing that without adjustements, it would actually make it easier for High Sec players to make the High Sec to Low Sec adjustment, because they could avoid the low/high gate-camps.
And that is a big argument in it's favor. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1391
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote: I especially enjoy you being able to drop 1000 man blobs on me anywhere in Eve in under 10 minutes.
Cause if it takes you longer than ten minutes to get anywhere in Eve, then that is to long.
Many people operating in High Sec are wondering if you are high right now.
A) 1000 man blobs don't just happen, they take planning or a galvanizing reason for everyone to log in (like a surprise attack on a hub system).
B) going somewhere far away involves a lot more than you realize. Scouting, spy reports, alt management, fuel logistics, setting up of safepoint POSes along the route and at the destination if a friendly station is unavailable (in terms of a deployment), etc. Essentially, every time you see a big fleet go a long distance fast, dozens to hundreds of man hours were involved to make that possible. Jumping blind makes you vulnerable. Hot drops are very risky.
C) You obviously have never deployed somewhere far away in Null. It is tedious as hell, even with jump drives, jump bridges, and the like. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
339
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
Power projection is a serious problem in nullsec (and lowsec, I guess). However, on the other hand, you don't want to make it so difficult to get at each other that people never fight, so there's no easy fix. Hopefully it's somewhere on the list of things to fix, and they get to it eventually.
That said, the majority of your post is moronic bile spewed by someone with obvious mental health issues. |
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Polly Oxford
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
21
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
ITT high sec dwellers comment on a mechanic they don't understand. |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
140
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote: I especially enjoy you being able to drop 1000 man blobs on me anywhere in Eve in under 10 minutes.
Cause if it takes you longer than ten minutes to get anywhere in Eve, then that is to long.
Many people operating in High Sec are wondering if you are high right now.
A) 1000 man blobs don't just happen, they take planning or a galvanizing reason for everyone to log in (like a surprise attack on a hub system). B) going somewhere far away involves a lot more than you realize. Scouting, spy reports, alt management, fuel logistics, setting up of safepoint POSes along the route and at the destination if a friendly station is unavailable (in terms of a deployment), etc. Essentially, every time you see a big fleet go a long distance fast, dozens to hundreds of man hours were involved to make that possible. Jumping blind makes you vulnerable. Hot drops are very risky. C) You obviously have never deployed somewhere far away in Null. It is tedious as hell, even with jump drives, jump bridges, and the like.
Where as traveling in a non-capital ship is very safe.
However, if making jumping safer makes you happy enough to lower the STUPID GAME BREAKING SPEED, then by all means, it should be made safer.
Non-system safe spots for jump drives, why not? |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
140
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:27:00 -
[13] - Quote
Darth Tickles wrote:Power projection is a serious problem in nullsec (and lowsec, I guess). However, on the other hand, you don't want to make it so difficult to get at each other that people never fight, so there's no easy fix. Hopefully it's somewhere on the list of things to fix, and they get to it eventually.
That said, the majority of your post is moronic bile spewed by someone with obvious mental health issues.
If you mean by that "power projection killed lowsec" then yes. It is a "problem". |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1391
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:30:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jessie, you don't know what the hell you're talking about, and should just stop. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
140
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Jessie, you don't know what the hell you're talking about, and should just stop.
Because there isn't a module/ship that currently exists capable of making jump drive safe spots outside of a system?
Well, that is rather easily fixed, isn't it?
"Space Anomaly Scanner" locates a "space distortion" in deep space off of a system. The exact location is randomly generated and is unique to the pilot-system combination. But it is VERY VERY deep. Like 1000 AU or something. Cyno's activated there are undetectable in system. Simply set the radius a Cyno can be detected to 500 AU or something. It's "deadspace" and you can't use warp drives there. Again, make ALL space say 500 AU or more from the sun "deadspace". Have warp drive check "distance from sun" before activating. It's one line of code. |
Doctor Grugon
GRUMPS RESEARCH TEAM Army of Dark Shadows
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
Interesting idea. How would a ship enter from another system that's not always in the same location so that location would not get camped? Any standard entry point into a system would get camped. The you have the station campers, but we already have them too sometimes.
If the only way to get from system to system is with a cyno then new players would be at an even more significant disadvantage than they are now.
I like the idea of not needing gates. Are you standing where you should be? |
Misunderstood Genius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
Contagion wrote:I completely agree. I've been in Eve since beta and 0.0 used to be much more exciting because to get your goods out you had to launch a convoy and protect it, and fly your goods out. Not a single jump, or perhaps 2 and your safely in high-sec.
Jump drives have ruined 0.0
These days you would need a blob-escort and moving goods out of nullsec will end up to an operation impossible. Final result is: goods are stucked in nullsec, players with real life unsub due to lack of time for a stupid logistics overkill in a game what should bring fun and not work. |
Son IamaDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:46:00 -
[18] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Eve is approximately 100 light years across total. For a Dreadnaught/Capital fleet of a thousand to cross this distance would take less than 11 jumps.
To cross from one end of Eve to the other.
Now, I am sure there are a few limiting factors like capacitor recharge, system loading time, and other things. But it is possible to go from one end of Eve to the other in less time than it takes a frigate to make 15 jumps and cross a part.. a PART... of High Sec.
Needless to say, this is broken fast.
It also adds risk/reward by allowing capital fleets to bypass all choke points, paths, and appear where-ever they want in their destination system.
But it also is a great game mechanic because it "scales well". And by that I mean it grow linearly in power with the number of users. That is it is approximately 10 times more powerful for a 100 person alliance than a 10. Why?
Because the number of places you can go it dependent on Cyno alts in the system or near the system. More players, more logged out cyno alts EVERYWHER. And it only takes one to go to a system.
This is why that Goon FC had his meltdown in Jita. Yes yes he is a lousy stupid player with no sense. But he doesn't need sense when he can get himself in trouble anywhere in the galaxy except High Sec and scream "CYNO! CYNO!" and get a 100+ ship zerg to bail him out.
So, how many serious PvPers have quit when they realized that any Goon or PL important enough to be able to scream "CYNO CYNO!" anywhere except High Sec is effectively untouchable?
This is also why Goons hate High Sec. And wormhole space. Don't think they don't. The safe word doesn't work.
But really, that's the way it works in real life to. If you are the minion of a great power, you just shake your but at the locals and they have to put up with it.
Or they kill you and your government runs off.
But, thanks to the design of the jump drive, we can all enjoy 1,000 man blobs that can be in any non-high sec system in Eve in under 15 minutes.
And reasonably, any non-High sec system in under 10 minutes if they are at all properly positioned.
But that makes sense. I've never heard of Imperial Overstretch or "only controls the ground upon which they stand". Eve is simply trying to mimic ancient and modern warfare by allowing armies to travel anywhere instantly.
The ability to go anywhere instantly with the most powerful ships in the game is necessary from a game balance perspective.
So, how do you think Jump Drives should be nerfed to bring back the sanity? Tell us how you really feel about these jump drives. In fact, I'd like a 10 page write up about this subject matter. |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
74
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
you just want to move us back to the stone age (eve 2003) and you just want to gank them all as you gate camp them. Too bad for you, this is never gonna happen. |
Bootleg Jack
Potters Field
70
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:51:00 -
[20] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Actually I think that it should be the other way around, let ALL ships dial in system to system warps, the range of which depending on the usual factors (power, skills, rigs, implants, etc) and get rid of these crap gate mechanics entirely.
It would be the end of the gate camps and the "great wall of carebear" that locks down high sec into a carebear haven - and also locks down 0.0 into another carebear haven.
The gate camp is gone, replaced by the combat patrol. Warp bubbles become rare, replaced by the combat probe, and blobs will be replaced by small and medium gangs. Let the 0.0 overlords whose systems are deserted for weeks on end (I know, I trespass there often) actually have to patrol, watch, and defend "their" systems instead of lording it up from their thrones while renters sit on gank pipelines.
Oh to think of the opportunities and what it would unleash....
Agreed the current gate mechanic is a wall that prevents new players from leaving high sec, everyone wants more player to particiapte in PvP/low/null and yet the mechanic is the new participants have to be fodder first like some bizzare hazing ritual.
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
630
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:you just want to move us back to the stone age (eve 2003) and you just want to gank them all as you gate camp them. Too bad for you, this is never gonna happen. We have an FC that adores gate-camping action. You don't want to jump into his hellcamp (now with added bubbles). Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
905
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
http://cisolutions.co.uk/FCKfiles/Image/Time%20cost%20quality.jpg
You should only be able to pick two while the third suffers. For some reason that is not the case in EVE. In EVE you are able to have all three. This needs to change.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
630
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
Luv to cyno. Haet to jump gate and align repeatedly to next gate. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Iamien
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
128
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:58:00 -
[24] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:http://cisolutions.co.uk/FCKfiles/Image/Time%20cost%20quality.jpg
You should only be able to pick two while the third suffers. For some reason that is not the case in EVE. In EVE you are able to have all three. This needs to change.
Because the range limitations of jump fuel(cost) and the reliance on cynos(quality) don't balance the time bonus. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
630
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:01:00 -
[25] - Quote
Iamien wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:http://cisolutions.co.uk/FCKfiles/Image/Time%20cost%20quality.jpg
You should only be able to pick two while the third suffers. For some reason that is not the case in EVE. In EVE you are able to have all three. This needs to change. Because the range limitations of jump fuel(cost) and the reliance on cynos(quality) don't balance the time bonus. Jumping through gates costs core....
I don't really know how much you can argue about the need for someone to have a cyno on their ship or a cyno alt though.. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
642
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:02:00 -
[26] - Quote
See, the problem isn't the blob and jump drives. There is none really, trust me.
The problem is you and the fact that you let your defense stagnate so your little Sov-Fortress of Solitude let a pest of a little cyno frig get passed you and then it brought in more vermin. That is your problem, your inability to defend your home from vermin. You are in fact the creator of your own demise, so perhaps instead of bitching how someone figured out how to use game mechanics to their advantage you need to figure out how to use the game mechanics to your advantage.
Want an amazing example of how to use game mechanics of how they existed and to win with them? Titan XL gun tracking, fitting mostly tracking mods, using tackle ships and lol-targeting lasers against the fact the other guy never brought titans. Amazing huh, adapting that mechanic of a massive ship that couldn't track on its own but using fleet tackle and then putting those massive amounts of titans in big large fleets. The other guy, had his chance to stop the titans from being built (that was their first mistake, not taking them out of action during construction), then they continued to use the time honored tradition of massive numbers of blob battleships, why the other guy cut down on the blob and just brought a force multiplier of titans that did the job just as well.
But as usual, the whiners couldn't cope of dealing with titan XL guns and would not admit that it was their fault for not adapting to the new fleet doctrine of EVE. Really, the best counter to a Titan XL gun is certainly not flying another battleship, but hopping into a cap ship. CCP had to dumb down titans for the whiners since they couldn't cope that their battleship tanks failed, but those whiners are the same dudes who say that hulk pilots need to cope with getting ganked by Titans destroyers by not flying battleships against Titans fitting tanks. (<-- me pointing out the fact that some people can't handle something but the same thing no longer applies to them when they tell hulk pilots how to handle the problem. Funny that)
Infact, aside from the obvious off topic rant that is somehow related the major problem of EVE is the ******* human infestation that can't handle the human element and how that human element uses game mechanics to their advantage but the other side whines when it is used against them that it is somehow broken, unfair, overpowered, and they just cannot ******* adapt. Yeah, nerf the players out of the equation then the entire problem will fix itself. |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
905
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'm just not a fan of; log in, press button, receive pvp. I feel more effort should be involved. This is not supposed to be WoT or CoD you know.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
630
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:04:00 -
[28] - Quote
Actually, if supercapitals could take gates then cynojamming wouldn't be such a massive advantage to the defender...
This would be troublesome because we here at the CFC have no way to defending against an enemy supercapital feet at all. Imagine if they could just gate jump right into VFK, the horror! Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Misunderstood Genius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:05:00 -
[29] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:http://cisolutions.co.uk/FCKfiles/Image/Time%20cost%20quality.jpg
You should only be able to pick two while the third suffers. For some reason that is not the case in EVE. In EVE you are able to have all three. This needs to change.
I don't want to play EVE for a living...
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Mersault
Blue Nine Industries
76
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 22:06:00 -
[30] - Quote
You have summed up in your OP what I truly hate about where this game is.
Oh I remember when,
oh I had such fun times when,
oh wasn't it great when ,
you are talking out of your ASS if you think with jump drives and cyno's only, no bridges, a cap fleet can travel across EvE in the same time a Frigate does 15 jumps ?
Oh is this with no warp to 0 and no bookmarks just like 'when'
What a ******* load of of useless **** drivel
You have summed up in your OP what I truly hate about where this game is.
it is you and people like you.
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