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Vidi Angelus
Caldari
Crystal Dynamics
Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.05.12 12:46:00 -
[1]
For the last month or so I've been flying the griffin during PVP ops, but now I just can't many reasons to use a griffin over a blackbird in almost any situation.
With a blackbird fitting such as:
Lows:
DCU (Or Nano)
Nanofibre
Mids:
Sensor booster (Scan res)
4* Racial Jammers
10MN MWD
Highs:
2* Standard missile
Medium Remote Armour rep
Medium Remote Shield rep
Vs a Griffin
Lows:
Signal Amp/Nanofibre (since the amp nerf, its not a must have so much)
Mids:
3* Racial/Multi
MWD
Highs
2* Standard Missle
1* 150MM Rail
If you compare the stats:
For Blackbird:
-Dual Reps for repping those with Buffer tanks during pit stops (most likely frig gangs)
-5 times the EHP
-An extra jammer
-Significantly Longer Jam Range
-No cap issues with many/long warps
For Griffin:
-2.4 Second align vs BB 3.4 (or 3.0 with dual Nano)
-50 Vs 150 Sig radius.
Since both are essentially no cost, Does 1/.6 extra seconds align time and 100 extra sig radius really justify a griffin over a blackbird in any situation?
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.05.12 13:02:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Vidi Angelus
Since both are essentially no cost, Does 1/.6 extra seconds align time and 100 extra sig radius really justify a griffin over a blackbird in any situation?
In some situation - yes. Not the aligment time really, but the signature mainly. If you are in frigate gang in cruiser anything bigger than frig will go after you. There might also be slight price difference if you use cheap equipment, but if you are older than some months then you should be able to lose either of them in tens and not really care about it.
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TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.05.12 13:25:00 -
[3]
Edited by: TraininVain on 12/05/2009 13:26:51
tbh I never bothered with the griffin as an ECM boat. If you have to use a frigate it does the job though.
As with any other smaller vs. bigger ship comparison it's basically about align time, sig radius, keeping up with gangmates etc. in FW it fits in more plexes too.
If the BB is quick enough to keep up with your gang then go with the BB more slots, more buffer etc. etc.
I'd bring Signal Distortion Amps in one or probably both low slots though tbh.
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards
Hoodlums Associates
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Posted - 2009.05.12 13:25:00 -
[4]
A griff can be set up for less than 2 mil. It is probably the cheapest ship an FC would never say no to and any nub can be in one in a day. The best thing about it though is that it can be mass peoduced
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TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.05.12 13:29:00 -
[5]
You can fly a Meta 3 (on the components that matter) BB for 6 or 7m and a Meta 4 BB for 12m or so.
It's not an especially pricey alternative to the Griff.
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1600 RT
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Posted - 2009.05.12 13:36:00 -
[6]
griffin is for fast gangs frigate/ceptors.
a BB wont keep up when you need to move fast, not for the extra 0.6 on align but because the griffin warp at 6AU and BB at 3AU.
if a griffin dont cover a long jump probably many others frig in your gang wont do it.
i would use a BB if i have other big ships in gang and griffing for frigate sized gang.
its a small niche but its still a tech 1 frig that cost almost nothing
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Ralara
Caldari
DEATHFUNK
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.12 14:01:00 -
[7]
Blackbird invalidates Griffen?
Well, I suppose in the same way a Megathron invalidates a thorax, yeah.
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Vidi Angelus
Caldari
Crystal Dynamics
Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.05.12 14:17:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ralara
Blackbird invalidates Griffen?
Well, I suppose in the same way a Megathron invalidates a thorax, yeah.
The difference is the Mega is rather substantially different to the Thorax, whereas as I see it the Blackbird and griffin are practically siblings in stats (Price, Speed, Jam strength etc.).
So it pretty much comes down to the AU warp speed then?
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Kama Kairade
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Posted - 2009.05.12 14:46:00 -
[9]
It comes down to "Frigate vs Cruiser". I tend to recommend the griffon to new caldari players that want to hop in roaming gangs. With Frig IV and a meta 3 multispec fit, they can usually have something that cloaks, has a mwd, targets at ~70KM, and has 3x Multi's at 4.5 strength. It's perfect for teaching new folks how to fly an ewar bird, and costs about 1.5m ISK. They can than upgrade to a Bbird when they have cruiser IV trained and know WTF they're doing in a gang.
If you're already a Cruiser V pilot, there's no reason to take a griffon over a bbird. If you're a cruiser/frig V pilot, you should probably be in a falcon or EA ship unless you've hit hard times.
KK
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Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2009.05.12 14:49:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 12/05/2009 14:51:48
The differences:
Blackbird
EHP
Jam Potential
More utility high slots
Griffin
Faster
More Agile
Warps faster
Locks faster
Cheaper (although both are pretty cheap)
If you look at other ships in the Caldari T1 ECM line, you'll see a similar relationship: Blackbirds are better suited for roaming gangs than Scorpions, but Scorpions do better in battleship fleet fights because of their larger buffer and utility high slots.
The Griffin, in theory, works better for roaming friggy gangs than the Blackbird because of its speed and agility, but when you consider how easy the Kitsune is to train for, how relatively cheap it is (compard to a Falcon or Rook), and how much better it is than the Griffin, you shouldn't really be flying a Griffin for very long.
EDIT:
Originally by: Vidi Angelus
Originally by: Ralara
Blackbird invalidates Griffen?
Well, I suppose in the same way a Megathron invalidates a thorax, yeah.
The difference is the Mega is rather substantially different to the Thorax, whereas as I see it the Blackbird and griffin are practically siblings in stats (Price, Speed, Jam strength etc.).
So it pretty much comes down to the AU warp speed then?
Change the initial quote to 'the same way a Thorax invalidates an Incursus' and you have a better example. The comparison isn't perfect, but I think it makes her point better.
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
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Ralara
Caldari
DEATHFUNK
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.12 17:55:00 -
[11]
Well my point was, ships with similar bonuses, similar damage types, similar type of tank etc...
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2009.05.12 17:57:00 -
[12]
Yes, yes it does. That said, that is the general trend - the T1 frigate is outclassed in almost every meaningful way in comparison to it's cruiser equivalent. Just look at the Kestral/Caracal to see what I mean. The Kestral can, at best, fit 4 frigate sized guns and will sacrifice the ability to fit anything resembling a tank/tackle to do so. The Caracal can fit 5 improved frigate sized guns (Assault Launchers), all while maintaining a similar speed (dramatically lower agility), and a dramatically improved tank (though still weak).
There are of course circumstances where the griffen is a better option, most of which are artificial. Some FW areas only allow frigates through (in which case, I'd opt for a Kitsune, but that is irrelevent I suppose), and some tournaments are the same. Both ships are virtually free to replace, though in both instances the replacement of jamming equipment can be the biggest expense.
I personally have never had a circumstance wherein I would intentionally choose to fly a griffen if a Blackbird was available.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.05.13 04:24:00 -
[13]
I would like to point out that max warp speed difference is not big enough to cause BB not being able to keep up with frigate gang.
I have actually tested the travel speed difference over 10j distance between ceptor and nano industrial (those are approx as fast as nano BB). The difference is not there. Or well ok - on jump by jump basis ceptors reach other gate around second faster in warp (on longer jumps), but in real life that second is not big enough difference as it's lost in various timers and buffers in the process (system change timer is a lot longer than that and does not care how fast you warp, it tends also to lag a bit, etcetc). Main reason why warp speed is irrelevant is ofc the loooooong acceleration and deacceleration times in warps. You accelerate like 20 Au's and deaccelerate another 20 Au - and thats more or less your average distance between gates.
The difference between BB and Griffin (I do agree btw with one of the above posters, that unless you really really need to you should not be flying Griffin over BB) is there when you land in bubble and need to get to next gate fast or in situations where signature radius matters.
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Warrio
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.05.13 09:57:00 -
[14]
The Arbitrator also obsoletes the Crucifier. Such is the way of T1 frigs/cruisers.
I'd say that the Bellicose obsoletes the Vigil but that would give the Bellicose too much credit. 
sXe |
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